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Our form - LJ to stay or go?


ChippenhamRed

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I'm far from convinced. Been a right roller coaster ride. If he's learned how to do the job fair play to him. I'm delighted it's been turned around because otherwise we'd have been down some time ago. I'm afraid that the jury is out for me. I'll always be thinking that another terrible run is just around the corner! But I'm delighted for the club. The appalling collapses against Reading and Cardiff were among the most inept I can recall...and yes, I can recall the whole of the 80's. With the players we have in the squad it should have been a far more enjoyable watch. But hey ho. Could have been a lot worse!

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If we win our final game we'll finish 15th or 16th.  That's not really good enough given the resources put in.

I don't really see the signs that he's learned much yet, we've hit on a team with the right mentality to get us out of a relegation dogfight we should never have been in more by luck than judgement - perhaps I'm wrong about that but endless tinkering is not how I want to see next season go.

Because of this late run he's probably done enough to get the first 10 games next season but if we're in the bottom 8 again (after no doubt more summer spending and an even more ridiculous wage bill) then he has to go.

It's all very well making unfounded assertions that players didn't want to play for him, his job is to get them to want to and yes that includes the big time charlies.  

We'll see.

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1 minute ago, Nibor said:

If we win our final game we'll finish 15th or 16th.  That's not really good enough given the resources put in.

I don't really see the signs that he's learned much yet, we've hit on a team with the right mentality to get us out of a relegation dogfight we should never have been in more by luck than judgement - perhaps I'm wrong about that but endless tinkering is not how I want to see next season go.

Because of this late run he's probably done enough to get the first 10 games next season but if we're in the bottom 8 again (after no doubt more summer spending and an even more ridiculous wage bill) then he has to go.

It's all very well making unfounded assertions that players didn't want to play for him, his job is to get them to want to and yes that includes the big time charlies.  

We'll see.

Sky reckoned we had a bottom third budget so jury is out on that tbh.

Keep him IMO but if it starts badly next season then is very hard to see him staying.

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Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

Sky reckoned we had a bottom third budget so jury is out on that tbh.

They are completely wrong about that as you will see when the next set of accounts come out.  Our wage budget would put us 10th-12th, our transfer budget higher.

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I think his record outside of the losing run speaks for itself. If some people are totally unprepared to let that go, and will persist in not giving him any credit, that's on them.

 

LJ has conducted himself with dignity throughout and I'm delighted for him to see how he has turned things around when we were at such a low point. That takes some character and is something the most experienced of coaches would be proud of, let alone someone managing at this level in his first full season.

 

Looking forward to next season with LJ at the helm. I'm sure he will have learned a lot from this season and will benefit from having managed the squad for a season as well as knowing the club and how we've ended the season, I think that puts us in a good position. A lot of work to be done but I'm positive for our future.

 

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Whatever we think, he'll be staying. Not much point wasting too much grey matter about hypotheticals.

Now IF I were Sir Steve, I'd be making discrete enquiries to see if I could attract a manager here to really move the club forward, or at minimum, a wise old head to assist Lee.

But I'm not Sir Steve, so that'll not happen. The personal friendship factor means "the project" will continue.  

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3 minutes ago, Nibor said:

If we win our final game we'll finish 15th or 16th.  That's not really good enough given the resources put in.

I don't really see the signs that he's learned much yet, we've hit on a team with the right mentality to get us out of a relegation dogfight we should never have been in more by luck than judgement - perhaps I'm wrong about that but endless tinkering is not how I want to see next season go.

Because of this late run he's probably done enough to get the first 10 games next season but if we're in the bottom 8 again (after no doubt more summer spending and an even more ridiculous wage bill) then he has to go.

It's all very well making unfounded assertions that players didn't want to play for him, his job is to get them to want to and yes that includes the big time charlies.  

We'll see.

Your expectations are far far too high given our recent history. We don't have a divine right to be in the top half. It's that entitled mentality amongst fans these days which helps to contribute to the sacking culture which pervades football today. 

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Just now, Nibor said:

They are completely wrong about that as you will see when the next set of accounts come out.  Our wage budget would put us 10th-12th, our transfer budget higher.

I'm not convinced but I do look forward to the next set of accounts and seeing where we are in that particular table. I always had a feeling it was lower midtable.

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33 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

So I come up with a reasoned argument in favour of LJ staying, and that's all you can come up with in response? Are you not able to put together a counter-argument?

Stupid statement, the chairman has made it clear LJ is not going to be sacked anytime soon.

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4 minutes ago, Nibor said:

If we win our final game we'll finish 15th or 16th.  That's not really good enough given the resources put in.

I don't really see the signs that he's learned much yet, we've hit on a team with the right mentality to get us out of a relegation dogfight we should never have been in more by luck than judgement - perhaps I'm wrong about that but endless tinkering is not how I want to see next season go.

Because of this late run he's probably done enough to get the first 10 games next season but if we're in the bottom 8 again (after no doubt more summer spending and an even more ridiculous wage bill) then he has to go.

It's all very well making unfounded assertions that players didn't want to play for him, his job is to get them to want to and yes that includes the big time charlies.  

We'll see.

City were 22nd when Johnson arrived at the club. Effectively that means he would have improved us by 6 or 7 places for the amount of money put in, if we finish 15/16th. It's worth bearing in mind that he inherited a small squad and many loans that returned to their parents clubs, so a large amount of investment was needed just to get the squad up to size.

With that context, I would say Johnson has improved us, but probably not by quite as much as the spending should have done. But I don't think overall he's been a disaster. And if he was to push us up another 6 or 7 places next season, that would be pretty good progress.

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5 minutes ago, Nibor said:

If we win our final game we'll finish 15th or 16th.  That's not really good enough given the resources put in.

I don't really see the signs that he's learned much yet, we've hit on a team with the right mentality to get us out of a relegation dogfight we should never have been in more by luck than judgement - perhaps I'm wrong about that but endless tinkering is not how I want to see next season go.

Because of this late run he's probably done enough to get the first 10 games next season but if we're in the bottom 8 again (after no doubt more summer spending and an even more ridiculous wage bill) then he has to go.

It's all very well making unfounded assertions that players didn't want to play for him, his job is to get them to want to and yes that includes the big time charlies.  

We'll see.

Sky suggested our budget was bottom third of the league. We're top of the bottom third. If the first bit is true then the conclusion is we're level par to nearly better than that?

thought it was interesting anyway!

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19 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. It's a catch 22. With the team losing regularly he would have faced criticism for sticking with a losing formula, it's natural to make changes when you're not winning.

Edit - but I do accept he should have worked out that formula a lot sooner!

The team kept losing because he would drop players and then out of the blue start playing them again,it was bizarre 

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Just now, shepton red said:

Stupid statement, the chairman has made it clear LJ is not going to be sacked anytime soon.

Thanks, another great contribution. We're not talking about whether he WILL stay or go, we're talking about whether he SHOULD. Massive difference. Most people managed to grasp that....maybe I'm not the stupid one?

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4 minutes ago, ploppy said:

Your expectations are far far too high given our recent history. We don't have a divine right to be in the top half. It's that entitled mentality amongst fans these days which helps to contribute to the sacking culture which pervades football today. 

He hasn't said anything about entitlement. He's talked about expectations against the investment put in. Completely fair enough.

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41 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Why would you sack a manager who is now showing he IS capable of winning games in the Championship?

Just at it would have been entirely reasonable to sack the manager after 1 win in 17, it would now seem equally ridiculous to sack him with the team in such good form - and also having shown the strength of character to recover from that mauling at Preston. In the last third of the season we have shown top 10 form, and that is enough for me to say that LJ should now be our manager at the start of next season.

It is an inconvenient truth that SL's decision to keep faith in LJ has been justified. Would a new manager likely have done better over the last 10-15 games? And with the team now playing well and demonstrating form over an extended period that is much closer to expectations, would appointing a new manager guarantee even further improvement? I don't think it would.

My opinion is he should stay.

Well, our (the fans) opinion really counts for nothing where LJ is concerned. He will be manager at the start of next season.

I still think we have massively under achieved this season, especially given the luxury of having Tammy on loan. We have also been left with a bloated squad of players. Interestingly Barnsley fans said he only came good there after stumbling on a 4-4-2 team that worked, after months of persisting with playing mainly one up front... seem same has happened here. Worrying thing is that also suggests LJ does not learn from his mistakes.

He has to be given his fabled third transfer window and we will see how we start next season, one thing for sure the clamour for him to go will quickly come out again if he does not get it right next season.

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Just now, East End Old Boy said:

Surely no one knows, until the information is published?

If you know what the situation was in previous years and what it was at other clubs you can look at the players moving in and out and estimate quite accurately.  We were spending more than most of the bottom third in the Championship on wages whilst in league one.

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This season has been, to be polite, a crap sandwich. Either side had some substance, but the middle was, well, not good fare.

We have 19 points off the last 9 games. Could not have hoped for better. He will get to Xmas I am sure, and he now deserves that. Hopefully he has learned some lessons. His real test now will be in this window, signing players who impove our first 11 as they are now, rather than waste millions on players not even in the squad. We have been so lucky to have had Tammy this year. Liking a lot of what I see from Taylor, other than he just seems rubbish at finishing, which seems a core competency for a striker!

Another year in the Championship. Always happy with that. 

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If he can stay strong minded after all the horrible stuff that's been directed at him, especially when he must have been worried about his dad, and if he can get the guys to pull the sort of performance we saw today out of the bag, he has the mental toughness needed to move up. He's still learning his craft and will have learnt a great deal this year. He's young and devoted to City. I hope he stays.

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Just now, old_eastender said:

Well, our (the fans) opinion really counts for nothing where LJ is concerned. He will be manager at the start of next season.

I still think we have massively under achieved this season, especially given the luxury of having Tammy on loan. We have also been left with a bloated squad of players. Interestingly Barnsley fans said he only came good there after stumbling on a 4-4-2 team that worked, after months of persisting with playing mainly one up front... seem same has happened here. Worrying thing is that also suggests LJ does not learn from his mistakes.

He has to be given his fabled third transfer window and we will see how we start next season, one thing for sure the clamour for him to go will quickly come out again if he does not get it right next season.

Underachieved yes, but "massively"? I don't think so. The luxury of Tammy is counteracted by the loss of Kodjia. Most people expected mid table. If mid table is 12th, we could still finish 15th. Three places doesn't sound like massive underachievement to me.

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I would imagine the 3 biggest earners are also the 3 who have been the biggest disappointment this season - Tomlin, O'Neil and Matthews.

Ship them out and it'll free up a decent amount of budget and also probably improve harmony in the dressing room.

The rest of the squad provides a solid foundation on which to build, with some very promising youngsters who now have a season under their belt. I think he'll push us on now.

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10 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

He hasn't said anything about entitlement. He's talked about expectations against the investment put in. Completely fair enough.

 

He cites the resources put in but doesn't acknowledge the resources taken out. A 0 net spend and a slight improvement in league position is fair for me. Could and would have been so much better if we didn't go on the bad run but it's difficult to regain confidence when things are so low and LJ has done a brilliant job in rectifying the situation we found ourselves in, many a more experienced manager would have failed. I feel the January acquisitions were important, when confidence was low in the early period of the bad run, we were pretty much wholly dependent on Abraham going forward but Taylor, Djuric and Cotterill strengthened us and Wright was a very good defensive signing.

 

If we hadn't sold Kodjia as well as the summer acquisitions, I'm sure our position would reflect the resources that were put in. But we lost him and our league position is similar to that of this time last season. Even a slight improvement as things stand.

 

I think after the recent great run of form, LJ has actually done a decent job this season. The extreme lows don't go in his favour, as if our wins and losses were spread out it'd be more balanced and there'd be less for his biggest critics to complain about. But I'm sure LJ and the players have learned much from this season and will benefit from the experience of the lows in the future. To come through such testing times is a credit to him, the players and the coaching staff. Our squad is promising but doesn't scream out quality of being a top 8 side or anything like that. I think mid-table is about right and I wouldn't have been surprised to see us finish anywhere from 10th-20th. The Championship is a close division and there's fine margins. We went on a terrible run of form but have recovered extremely well and have won a similar amount of games to most teams in the division outside of the top 8. With a few acquisitions in the summer, especially when it comes to replacing Tammy/Kodjia, I think we can have a good season next year.

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