Ok

[Luxo Jr.]

Can't quite understand the tinkering argument. If you mean from game to game, a lot of it is rotation (i.e fitness), and when the bad form started, he just wanted to find combinations that worked.

If you mean during the game... the 1st eleven can't all play 90 minutes of each game. And, unless your name's Jurgen Klopp, you can't play at the same pace for 90 minutes. You have to find a way to win when playing defensively too. Obviously we couldn't find that for large stretches of the season. But we've found something now.

I would agree that a very poor start to next season would probably be the end for LJ, but I do like what he's trying to build here. I can see another young Prem striker coming in too based on the success of Abraham here.

[1960maaan]

Sadly @BigTone SL has nailed is colours to the mast and Johnson is here for the foreseeable, unless SL is so bloody minded that he doesn't really support LJ and was just saying that because we all wanted him out !!
We are stuck with him now and the summer and first two months of the new season will tell a tale.

This year he tinkered and lost, and tinkered and lost ad infinitum (almost) , he then accidentally stumbled on a winning team and now could be scared to change it. Neither one is ideal and not the sign of an intelligent progressive manger. 

I've said before, we are safe inspire of LJ and were in trouble because. The addition of real quality and he could keep his job all next year and we may even mount a challenge for solid mid table , without the complete absolute shambles of a season ! I didn't type shambles 

 

[Whitchurch1966]

I watched the game after I got back from Brighton last night. I thought there were some interesting comments about our formation said by Keith Andrews who seems to speak a lot of sense. He talked about how since Preston we have played with a narrow midfield 4 and we try to keep the maximum distance from the front to the back at any time to 45 metres. He said that neither of our wide midfield players are actually wingers, they drop in and are able to minimise the space when we don't have the ball, what LJ calls transformation.

Is this different? Has LJ been to Damascus and been converted. is it just that he finally worked out the right players in the right formation. Who do we think may have I nfluenced the decision to start playing tighter and offer the opposition less space.

Made sense to me, you can see why we have been harder to beat since Preston.

 

 

[Lew-T]

Nothing has still changed in my mind. Just can't trust the bloke and with his changes, it's taken him this long to realise his best team. Most of which, are HIS players!

[bakes]

I think we need to strap ourselves in for another roller coaster ride next season!

[BigTone]

2 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

You can't just decide what is and what isn't part of the argument.

A new manager would bring new staff, would make more wholesale changes to a squad, and would bring a new way of working. Yet more change. Stability and continuity is something in our favour compared to other clubs and it is a factor whether it's the end of the season or not.

We are talking about football here. Changes are inevitable and part of progression. Do you honestly think that if we stick with what we have then next season will be stroll in the rose garden ?

[RumRed]

4 hours ago, INCRED said:

He's played the same team last 5 games and the results reflect the consistent selection. He has found the right blend of players and tactics. Players are playing for him and the club so leave it alone.

He has realised Tomlin can't play in this team and in spite of trying probably concludes that was our problem. 

LJ will have learnt a lot this season about the players and himself. A good season next time round I reckon and the haters will be put back in their box permanently

Leave the 'haters' out of it.  So bored of the phrases 'haters' and 'agendas' we all want the same ******* thing, a successful Bristol City side, we are purely disagreeing on how that common aim is achieved.

I had a bloody great time at the AMEX yesterday and am really happy with the result, and performance, I am still allowed to question SL and LJ for the the diabolical rest of the season though.

I hope LJ succeeds more than anything as it looks like he'll be here for a while but I'm not laying out the trestle tables and bunting quite yet.

[ChippenhamRed]

2 hours ago, BigTone said:

We are talking about football here. Changes are inevitable and part of progression. Do you honestly think that if we stick with what we have then next season will be stroll in the rose garden ?

Depends what you mean by a stroll in the rose garden. I think a top half finish is a reasonable and realistic expectation for next season, and I don't see why a manager who is currently showing top 10 form can't be the the man to achieve it. That would mean five consecutive seasons of improvement, which sounds pretty rosy to me.

[JamesBCFC]

1 minute ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Depends what you mean by a stroll in the rose garden. I think a top half finish is a reasonable and realistic expectation for next season, and I don't see why a manager who is currently showing top 10 form can't be the the man to achieve it. That would mean five consecutive seasons of improvement, which sounds pretty rosy to me.

A top 10 overall record is crap according to Tone in this very thread though

(I believe "uninspiring" was the word)

[ChippenhamRed]

2 minutes ago, RumRed said:

Leave the 'haters' out of it.  So bored of the phrases 'haters' and 'agendas' we all want the same ******* thing, a successful Bristol City side, we are purely disagreeing on how that common aim is achieved.

I had a bloody great time at the AMEX yesterday and am really happy with the result, and performance, I am still allowed to question SL and LJ for the the diabolical rest of the season though.

I hope LJ succeeds more than anything as it looks like he'll be here for a while but I'm not laying out the trestle tables and bunting quite yet.

"Diabolical", really? 17th place, potentially 15th place, is disappointing but to describe it as diabolical is ridiculously disproportionate in my opinion.

[Robbored]

17 minutes ago, RumRed said:

Leave the 'haters' out of it.  So bored of the phrases 'haters' and 'agendas' we all want the same ******* thing, a successful Bristol City side, we are purely disagreeing on how that common aim is achieved.

I had a bloody great time at the AMEX yesterday and am really happy with the result, and performance, I am still allowed to question SL and LJ for the the diabolical rest of the season though.

 

"Diabolical?"    

Not a word I'd use to describe this season. I'd use words like "tinkering" and "inconsistency".

[RumRed]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

"Diabolical?"    

Not a word I'd use to describe this season. I'd use words like "tinkering" and "inconsistency".

Can we agree on 'debacle'?

[BigTone]

1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Depends what you mean by a stroll in the rose garden. I think a top half finish is a reasonable and realistic expectation for next season, and I don't see why a manager who is currently showing top 10 form can't be the the man to achieve it. That would mean five consecutive seasons of improvement, which sounds pretty rosy to me.

How exactly have we had five seasons of improvement under LJ ? He hasn't been here that long !

[Numero Uno]

Simple for me....this season we have "amassed" 54-57 league points which is below par in my view. He's got to do better next season. Assuming he is safe for a while then he has to show us signs up to Christmas that we can finish in the upper part of mid table with no threat of a relegation battle to convince people he can progress us.

[BCFC Rich]

8 hours ago, BigTone said:

so a great result against Brighton in what I considered our most important game of the season. Kudo's to all involved. But where do we go now ? In my mind our problems this season have been down to LJ's continued tinkering and I still think he needs to be moved on for us to progress. We have a decent squad with a few exceptions and a panic buy or two. A couple out and a couple in and we look good. We have shown what we can do on our day.

I hope SL can see this and will make the changes required to move us on.

3

 

6 hours ago, BigTone said:

Amazes me how people forget the other 40 odd games.

And BTW I will leave it alone when I decide I want to.

 

40 odd games? Lee has been in charge for 62 games total - the spell you are talking about was nowhere near 40 games.

6 hours ago, BigTone said:

The point is we are at the end of the season so continuity now means nothing. There will be squad upheaval either way so that is not part of any argument.

 

Would there be more upheaval with a new manager, coaching team, their players or the current set up? Where you stat we need a couple out a couple in.

6 hours ago, BigTone said:

I am and does not inspire me one bit. Last season means nothing as does the good start to this season that we failed to capitalise on. People now say that if we beat Brum we will finish mid table but forget had we lost yestersday we would be in deep poop again. This division is very close and our managers tactical naivety at times has cost us dearly.

3

So basically the only thing that does mean something is what the here and now? Becuase you don't seem to want to give credit to that, it seems that all that matters to you is this seasons mid season - no credit for early or late season form. You also acknowledge that it's a tight division but don't let that colour your thoughts on LJ at all.

6 hours ago, BigTone said:

I hope he succeeds but just know he won't if he continues in the same vein. To be clear I am not talking about the last couple of games but the season overall

1

I love it! Our bad form was 40 odd games and our good just the last couple! In the previous quote, you claim to be paying attention to his overall record but you clearly are not! P -62 W -26 D -12 L -24 Win % -41.93! 

4 hours ago, BigTone said:

We are talking about football here. Changes are inevitable and part of progression. Do you honestly think that if we stick with what we have then next season will be stroll in the rose garden ?

 

So here is where you just start to change your opinion within the same thread. You think we only need a couple of changes earlier on but here you seem to think we need more than that. Also if you don't think what we have is up to much then you should be very satisfied with what we have achieved.

23 minutes ago, BigTone said:

How exactly have we had five seasons of improvement under LJ ? He hasn't been here that long !

Clearly they are talking about the the club here not LJ.

[1953]

Jesus wept.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

9 hours ago, BigTone said:

so a great result against Brighton in what I considered our most important game of the season. Kudo's to all involved. But where do we go now ? In my mind our problems this season have been down to LJ's continued tinkering and I still think he needs to be moved on for us to progress. We have a decent squad with a few exceptions and a panic buy or two. A couple out and a couple in and we look good. We have shown what we can do on our day.

I hope SL can see this and will make the changes required to move us on.

Credit where credit is due yesterdays performance was immense a perfect counter attack display, Flint was superb I find it incredible people criticise him most of Brighton dangerous moment emanated from lax passing by Abraham or Pack + Pack's lack of pace, even the full backs played well, for most of this season our problems have been midfield and full backs and that needs to be the starting place for summer recruitment and of course a replacement striker.

Matthews, GON and Geifer have been a waste of wages, Hegeler seems to be a slower version of Pack and Tomlin an ill judged signing, all of that needs rectifying.

[ChippenhamRed]

1 hour ago, BigTone said:

How exactly have we had five seasons of improvement under LJ ? He hasn't been here that long !

You strike me as cleverer than that Tone. Read it again.

[havanatopia]

8 hours ago, bakes said:

I can't remember a season quite like this one, how LJ managed to turn it around at the end of the season is staggering.

I agree about all the tinkering and now we have a settled side / formation we have done well.

I would of happily seen him gone but to be fair i think he deserves another chance next season.

Talk about ups and downs from Preston to Brighton!

 

I think its been written dozens perhaps hundreds of times by many of us, including me, that it has been the players not Johnson who decided our fate; they wanted him gone, that is abundantly clear; how else do you explain a collapse in mid season form? When reality kicked in that he was going nowhere they have done the necessary to keep us up.

I have not seen such an obvious pathway and outcome, from where we started in August to where we are now, in any season in my lifetime and I have been following City since 1980; not allowed to watch a match before then ;( 

[BCFC Rich]

4 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

I think its been written dozens perhaps hundreds of times by many of us, including me, that it has been the players not Johnson who decided our fate; they wanted him gone, that is abundantly clear; how else do you explain a collapse in mid season form? When reality kicked in that he was going nowhere they have done the necessary to keep us up.

I have not seen such an obvious pathway and outcome, from where we started in August to where we are now, in any season in my lifetime and I have been following City since 1980; not allowed to watch a match before then ;( 

 

I have to say I see very little to support this. Results were bad but close, the players showed no sign of lack of effort. The only hints that there was discontent was people posting that there was along with press conference in 2 hrs!!!! Everything from attitude on the pitch to public statements, videos from in and around the club says this is rubbish. Honestly, LJ has a lot still to prove but to desperately cling to anything that paints him a bad light like this just undermines your opinions. Look a Bobbobsuperbob one of LJ's biggest critics but not afraid to give credit where/when its due (humble pie and all). If you are going to ignore recent performances and LJ's overall record then you are not looking at things in a balanced light. He's done enough to warrant a chance next season with a lot still to prove.

[BigTone]

9 hours ago, RichardEdd said:

 

40 odd games? Lee has been inseasge for 62 games total - the spe ll you are talking about was nowhere near 40 games.

Would there be more upheaval with a new manager, coaching team, their players or the current set up? Where you stat we need a couple out a couple in.

So basically the only thing that does mean something is what the here and now? Becuase you don't seem to want to give credit to that, it seems that all that matters to you is this seasons mid season - no credit for early or late season form. You also acknowledge that it's a tight division but don't let that colour your thoughts on LJ at all.

I love it! Our bad form was 40 odd games and our good just the last couple! In the previous quote, you claim to be paying attention to his overall record but you clearly are not! P -62 W -26 D -12 L -24 Win % -41.93! 

So here is where you just start to change your opinion within the same thread. You think we only need a couple of changes earlier on but here you seem to think we need more than that. Also if you don't think what we have is up to much then you should be very satisfied with what we have achieved.

Clearly they are talking about the the club here not LJ.

Lets make things perfectly clear for you:

Credit where credit is due for bearing Brighton. (beating even)

IMO LJ is not the man to progress us to the next level.

We have a good squad but I think a couple out and a couple in will improve it. At no point have I said otherwise.

Changes are inevitable in football.

There are 46 games in a Championship season.

You can love whatever you like. Stats are great but do not hide the fact that we have had a shite season.

[WhistleHappy]

12 hours ago, Robbored said:

"Diabolical?"    

Not a word I'd use to describe this season. I'd use words like "tinkering" and "inconsistency".

& abbreviations like f'ing SBC!!! ....  

[havanatopia]

10 hours ago, RichardEdd said:

I have to say I see very little to support this. Results were bad but close, the players showed no sign of lack of effort. The only hints that there was discontent was people posting that there was along with press conference in 2 hrs!!!! Everything from attitude on the pitch to public statements, videos from in and around the club says this is rubbish. Honestly, LJ has a lot still to prove but to desperately cling to anything that paints him a bad light like this just undermines your opinions. Look a Bobbobsuperbob one of LJ's biggest critics but not afraid to give credit where/when its due (humble pie and all). If you are going to ignore recent performances and LJ's overall record then you are not looking at things in a balanced light. He's done enough to warrant a chance next season with a lot still to prove.

Conversely, I suppose one might also argue there is very little to support your view. In fact the close results could be argued to back up my point because the players wanted it that way. They did not want to be seen to be totally capitulating in each match. As far fetched as you might think it such things happen in football; I know enough people in the game who support this view to know that it is entirely plausible. As an outsider looking in of course I assume LJ works hard and tries his best. That is not in question. I suppose his biggest, and perhaps only, pat on the back that could be afforded is for him to apparently swallow some pride and go hug a player. I suspect he has done a fair bit of that of late. That alone might have given the extra 1% needed to turn games we would otherwise have thrown.

To suggest Lee Johnson has done enough to warrant another season after this diabolical campaign suggests we are a mediocre team content with mid table obscurity; we have gone backwards since he arrived; the final league position will perhaps tilt just in his favour, 2 or 5 points better off than a year ago. Make no bones, that is backwards. millions spent on players and stadia notwithstanding 11 rising to 15 million for Kodjia. I Disagree with you 100%.

Do I think we will be in a better place in 12 months from now? Yes.. it would be nigh on impossible not to be and not even Johnson could screw that up, surely? If we are in the play offs he will only then warrant support from those against him wishing he stays but boy what a totally wasted and overly expensive 1-2 years in the process. And lets not forget, Lansdown admitted he had huge reservations about appointing him in the first place. Anyway, he's here, he's going nowhere, that is all that matters now.

[ChippenhamRed]

5 hours ago, BigTone said:

Lets make things perfectly clear for you:

Credit where credit is due for bearing Brighton. (beating even)

IMO LJ is not the man to progress us to the next level.

We have a good squad but I think a couple out and a couple in will improve it. At no point have I said otherwise.

Changes are inevitable in football.

There are 46 games in a Championship season.

You can love whatever you like. Stats are great but do not hide the fact that we have had a shite season.

...but you have used made-up stats to make the season appear worse than it was.

"Changes are inevitable in football". What does that even mean? Does it mean there are no benefits to continuity? No. Does it mean we should change the manager just because that's what happens? No.

Maybe what will give this club the edge over the longer term is a continuity and stability that other clubs don't have the patience for. No guarantees, but no guarantees in just changing the manager either.

[ChippenhamRed]

3 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Conversely, I suppose one might also argue there is very little to support your view. In fact the close results could be argued to back up my point because the players wanted it that way. They did not want to be seen to be totally capitulating in each match. As far fetched as you might think it such things happen in football; I know enough people in the game who support this view to know that it is entirely plausible. As an outsider looking in of course I assume LJ works hard and tries his best. That is not in question. I suppose his biggest, and perhaps only, pat on the back that could be afforded is for him to apparently swallow some pride and go hug a player. I suspect he has done a fair bit of that of late. That alone might have given the extra 1% needed to turn games we would otherwise have thrown.

To suggest Lee Johnson has done enough to warrant another season after this diabolical campaign suggests we are a mediocre team content with mid table obscurity; we have gone backwards since he arrived; the final league position will perhaps tilt just in his favour, 2 or 5 points better off than a year ago. Make no bones, that is backwards. millions spent on players and stadia notwithstanding 11 rising to 15 million for Kodjia. I Disagree with you 100%.

Do I think we will be in a better place in 12 months from now? Yes.. it would be nigh on impossible not to be and not even Johnson could screw that up, surely? If we are in the play offs he will only then warrant support from those against him wishing he stays but boy what a totally wasted and overly expensive 1-2 years in the process. And lets not forget, Lansdown admitted he had huge reservations about appointing him in the first place. Anyway, he's here, he's going nowhere, that is all that matters now.

A "diabolical" season? Most of us expected a mid table finish. If mid table is 12th, we could finish 15th. Do you think "diabolical" suitably desribes finishing 3 places lower than expected out of 92 league clubs?

As for going backwards, the club were 22nd when LJ arrived. I agree the money spent hasn't brought about the improvement expected, but it's still not backwards. And the way we are finishing this season, there is every reason to be optimistic about next year.

An often overlooked fact is that we had to spend a lot just to get the squad up to size. We had a tiny squad and a lot of key loans returned to their parent clubs at the end of last season. So, we were starting from a lower base than many clubs. That means we needed to spend more than some other teams just to become equally competitive. And having signed a number of young players such as O'Dowda and Taylor Moore, the benefit of that expenditure may not have been seen in full yet.

[BigTone]

13 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

.atodou have used made-up stats to mak e  the season appear worse than it was.

"Changes are inevitable in football". What does that even mean? Does it mean there are no benefits to continuity? No. Does it mean we should change the manager just because that's what happens? No.

Maybe what will give this club the edge over the longer term is a continuity and stability that other clubs don't have the patience for. No guarantees, but no guarantees in just changing the manager either.

I have not made up any stats at all as you are well aware. Our disastrous season is there for all to see.

"Changes are inevitable in football" is exactly that. What do I need to explain?. Kodgia, Ayling and Freeman are examples.

Continuity i agree is great but IMO I don't think LJ is the one for the job. That is my opinion as opposed to yours to which we are both entitled. So there we have it.......a difference of opinion.

[ChippenhamRed]

Just now, BigTone said:

I have not made up any stats at all as you are well aware. Our disastrous season is there for all to see.

"Changes are inevitable in football" is exactly that. What do I need to explain?. Kodgia, Ayling and Freeman are examples.

Continuity i agree is great but IMO I don't think LJ is the one for the job. That is my opinion as opposed to yours to which we are both entitled. So there we have it.......a difference of opinion.

Describing a bad run of 22 games as "40 games", and a 15 game spell of top 10 form as "a couple of games" is making up stats to suit an argument.

And I fail to see how finishing somewhere around 15th-17th when most expected mid table season qualifies as "disastrous". Disappointing, but hardly disastrous.

I am not disputing your right to a different opinion, I am just debating with you.

[BobBobSuperBob]

14 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

A "diabolical" season? Most of us expected a mid table finish. If mid table is 12th, we could finish 15th. Do you think "diabolical" suitably desribes finishing 3 places lower than expected out of 92 league clubs?

As for going backwards, the club were 22nd when LJ arrived. I agree the money spent hasn't brought about the improvement expected, but it's still not backwards. And the way we are finishing this season, there is every reason to be optimistic about next year.

An often overlooked fact is that we had to spend a lot just to get the squad up to size. We had a tiny squad and a lot of key loans returned to their parent clubs at the end of last season. So, we were starting from a lower base than many clubs. That means we needed to spend more than some other teams just to become equally competitive. And having signed a number of young players such as O'Dowda and Taylor Moore, the benefit of that expenditure may not have been seen in full yet.

Understand what you are saying CR and ultimately our final League position may suggest an 'ok' if dissapointing  season 

But without promotion form (1.9 pts per game ) and that's what it's been post Preston , like a bolt from the blue , with no great obvious reason, the season would have ended as a complete disaster / diabolical

I know we did find that form and thus disaster / diabolical will look , ultimately inappropriate but talk about fine margins 

Even 'decent' form or even 'play off form' post Preston may well have / would likely seen us relegated and disaster / diabolical would have seemed appropriate

 

The fact that none of us can accurately explain the complete swing in form remains a concern , albeit atm I'm just happy we didn't drop !!!!!

[BigTone]

12 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

: Describing a bad run ofisnes as "40 games", and a 15 game spel l of top 10 form as "a couple of games" is making up stats to suit an argument.

And I fail to see how finishing somewhere arouto cpitalisedth-17th when most expected mid table  season qualifies as "disastrous". Disappointing, but hardly disastrous.

I am not disputing your right to a different opinion, I am just debating with you.

Appreciate that and your point of view, however avoiding relegation in the last 2 games of the season is mediocre in my eyes. I did not say that 22 games were 40. I was generalising our season as a whole. Yes we started well but faIled to capitalise and ended up having he worse losing run in the clubs history. We may finish mid table but that just shows how close the divison is. Anyway, onwards and upwards.

Ps: apologies is this comes through disjointed but am in the lounge at Kuala Lumpur airport and a huge storm is brewing and keeps knocking out the Wifi

[ChippenhamRed]

5 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Understand what you are saying CR and ultimately our final League position may suggest an 'ok' if dissapointing  season 

But without promotion form (1.9 pts per game ) and that's what it's been post Preston , like a bolt from the blue , with no great obvious reason, the season would have ended as a complete disaster / diabolical

I know we did find that form and thus disaster / diabolical will look , ultimately inappropriate but talk about fine margins 

Even 'decent' form or even 'play off form' post Preston may well have / would likely seen us relegated and disaster / diabolical would have seemed appropriate

 

The fact that none of us can accurately explain the complete swing in form remains a concern , albeit atm I'm just happy we didn't drop !!!!!

Yep, all true, but I just think if you're describing a season in its entirety then you need to include the entire set of results!

It's certainly true that if we hadn't had this good run of form it would have been a disaster - but equally if we hadn't had the bad spell in the middle, it wouldn't have been! A good run of form is just as valid a part of the overall assessment as a bad run.

I think people would judge this season less harshly had the wins and losses been dished out more evenly.