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Personally, I think Lee Tomlin is a positive for us when WE have the ball, maybe trying too hard possibly, but he's a liability when we don't have the ball. His attempts at tracking back on Sunday were, in my opinion, pathetic. JB wasn't good on Sunday (none of them were TBH) but he was left exposed at times, quite badly.

Can we find a way to utilise LT's undoubted talents in our team? I'm not sure we are in a position to be able to carry a LT / Jacki' type player just yet. More's the pity as, on his day, LT can be worth the admission fee on his own.

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13 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

Tomlin is quality.  It should be possible to manage him for the good of the team

LJ did!

Tomlin has skill in abundance but the team performance and results improved for him being left out.

Taylor is miles behind Tomlin in the skill department but the team improved for his inclusion.

QED

 

 

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Tomlin is a bit of a luxury, He reminds me of Mark Gavin or Lee Trundle, plays 2 good games out of 5 and in the other 3 you wonder why he's on the pitch. No doubting his ability, but in a league as competative as the Championship does he really justify a starting place every week ? Perhaps he preferred being the top dog and fan's favouite last season - and Tammy rather stole his thunder this time around. 

Personally id get rid - we need quality and consistency and players that will give 100% every week. 

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On 07/05/2017 at 20:22, steveybadger said:

To my mind he strikes me as actually a bit insecure. I suspect he needs lots of love to get the best out of him and the moment he feels he's not the top man he can't produce. Not really sure what the answer is as we're probably a better team (emphasis on team) without him unless he's on top form. Whatever happens I wonder if there's anybody at this level who would pay him what we are at the moment, even if we wanted to sell?

Yes, I think he came into the side thinking he was going to be the 'star', then Tammy arrived. You could tell he was put out (I don't mean there was any bad feeling towards Tammy) but I think that's why he struggled, was mouthing of at the ref etc, and he did admit in one of the interviews that when he did eventually score, it was such a relief. I felt he was trying too hard to compete with Tammy and it put him off his game, in the early stages of the season anyway. What happened after that, I don't know.

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I hope he has a role to play next season, as would be a waste to see him leave here not having bettered his first half a season with us.

Felt that against Huddersfield he really had the bit between his teeth, and was playing close to Tammy, feeding off the scraps and causing trouble.

But unlike Paterson and indeed Brownhill, he seems utterly incapable of getting back and helping out when the opposition turn the screw.  That would be okay if he was difficult to contain when left alone up top, but in reality he isn't, so ends up looking a passenger.

I do think Korey Smith being out early season didn't help; over the run in last year Smith was like a man possessed, stopping opposition attacks almost single handed, and meaning Tomlin often could play central with with players next to him and forwards ahead, and our midfield still wouldn't be over run - the demolitions of Sheffield Weds and Huddersfield in 15/16 showed that on his day Tomlin can dismantle teams.

We'll have to see if he lasts the summer.  Personally, I feel he'll end up leaving, purely as I don't think we will be aiming to use him as much as he'd like next year.  But a great shame if that turns out to be the case, as absolutely has the talent to add something to us on his day.

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On 09/05/2017 at 09:06, Red-Robbo said:

Exactly.  He's stocky and barrel-chested rather than flabby. 

Despite Johnson's famous assertion, he can actually sprint when he wants to. Beat a defender to a 50/50 on Sunday.

Like Jet he chooses not to for much of the time. His game is based on watching where the gaps are and trying to exploit them.

Key words-"barrel & Watching"...

Could have been a leg end here-instead chose to "Play the fool in a six peice band"...

Its true that you "Can't fatten a pig overnight"-but the clock's ticking..

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10 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Two words : Man Management

Anyone who has been a manager at whatever level should know that the most difficult thing to deal with is a bad attitude.  You can train all sorts of skills into a person, but if they're a wrong 'un from the start, then it's an uphill struggle.  In my profession I've sometimes been tempted to recruit candidates who are fantastically well qualified and who you know could hit the ground running, but who don't win friends at interview.  When I've done that it has almost always proved to be a mistake.  Far better to go for the candidate with the positive attitude, with the good team fit, who you know you can train up into someone more skilled.

I think Johnson's man management of Tomlin has been perfectly understandable and acceptable.  He has tried damn hard to give the man a chance to shine.  He has given him a freedom not always afforded to others, and he has tried him in a variety of positions.  In the end, when it was clearly not working, he dropped him and stuck with players he could trust to deliver.  Nothing wrong with the man management there as far as I can see.  Sometimes, it's good man management to give up on someone, be decisive and move on.

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I really don't think players like Tomlin 'fit' us as a side / club like us , in our current situation / status (And clubs similar to us) where we are fighting to establish ourselves at a tough level

Tomlin and his type are far better as the 'icing on the cake' adding his ability to a more accomplished side chasing promotion and who dominate a lot of games

At the moment we , where we are, we normally need 'all hands on deck' and personally , for me , Tomlin has rarely showed he is willing to 'play a part' rather than play the maverick

Players like this tend to be very devisive not only amongst the fan base but amongst players too and I just don't think (Unless he changes) he is compatible with us right now and what we need

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13 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Anyone who has been a manager at whatever level should know that the most difficult thing to deal with is a bad attitude.  You can train all sorts of skills into a person, but if they're a wrong 'un from the start, then it's an uphill struggle.  In my profession I've sometimes been tempted to recruit candidates who are fantastically well qualified and who you know could hit the ground running, but who don't win friends at interview.  When I've done that it has almost always proved to be a mistake.  Far better to go for the candidate with the positive attitude, with the good team fit, who you know you can train up into someone more skilled.

I think Johnson's man management of Tomlin has been perfectly understandable and acceptable.  He has tried damn hard to give the man a chance to shine.  He has given him a freedom not always afforded to others, and he has tried him in a variety of positions.  In the end, when it was clearly not working, he dropped him and stuck with players he could trust to deliver.  Nothing wrong with the man management there as far as I can see.  Sometimes, it's good man management to give up on someone, be decisive and move on.

Good Post

I'd go further than that DP 

Id say IMHO one of Lees major mistakes this season was not sidelining LT sooner 

He did but kept falling back to him either starting or off the bench

I can understand in a way that he hoped / believed Tomlin could produce a moment of magic and win a game for us , especially in the dire period but this became less and less likely and the cost to the team disproportional for me

I do wonder whether part of his reasoning for turning to LT was in the belief he was appeasing the fans and keeping them on board or possibly more likely , in the belief / fear he would be slated (as he has been) if the results continued to be awful whilst he kept Tomlin off the pitch 

I don't want to reignite the 'bullshit' debate but I think the fact Lee kept returning to Tomlin after some 'moments' may have undermined his credibility within the squad

 

* In fairness to LT he obviously has some other stresses in his life by the sounds of it and this won't have helped - I think he will be gone , Middlesbrough a likely IMHO but if he would express his honest desire to get his head down and turn his time around here I'd keep him (I don't see that happening at all)

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45 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

Could have been a leg end here-instead chose to "Play the fool in a six peice band"...

Its true that you "Can't fatten a pig overnight"-but the clock's ticking..

Ian Dury and The Blockheads What A waste for the first lyric. No idea about the second!

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The last half a dozen posts sum it up perfectly for me.

He is good in a team that is performing well, bad in a team that isn't.  We aren't the right type of team yet...not consistently anyway.

I was hopeful when he signed, certainly thought he was worth the gamble.  £2-£3m (whatever it was) was not a huge sum  in the grand scheme of things.  But I had my concerns during pre-season.

Time to move on I think.  Recoup a bit of the outlay.  Thankful for him providing us with some magical moments, certainly in 15/16 season.

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7 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Anyone who has been a manager at whatever level should know that the most difficult thing to deal with is a bad attitude.  You can train all sorts of skills into a person, but if they're a wrong 'un from the start, then it's an uphill struggle.  In my profession I've sometimes been tempted to recruit candidates who are fantastically well qualified and who you know could hit the ground running, but who don't win friends at interview.  When I've done that it has almost always proved to be a mistake.  Far better to go for the candidate with the positive attitude, with the good team fit, who you know you can train up into someone more skilled.

I think Johnson's man management of Tomlin has been perfectly understandable and acceptable.  He has tried damn hard to give the man a chance to shine.  He has given him a freedom not always afforded to others, and he has tried him in a variety of positions.  In the end, when it was clearly not working, he dropped him and stuck with players he could trust to deliver.  Nothing wrong with the man management there as far as I can see.  Sometimes, it's good man management to give up on someone, be decisive and move on.

"Nothing wrong with the man management" no, as you say, with someone with a poor attitude, there's only so much that can be done. But what you have overlooked there is the judgement in the first place, the over-confidence of LJ last summer - witness, the "Europa League" comment - the super-confidence in himself. Go back and look at LJ's comments when Tomlin signed and LJ makes reference to Tomlin's character and need to be handled carefully. He knew what he was taking on but thought he could cope (where Eddie Howe could not!)

The judgement on the player - whether to sign or not - comes before the man management; get the judgement in recruitment right, and the man management takes care of itself.

Ah, but everyone wanted him to sign, will be one retort. Yes, but as SL told us recently, we don't make "informed decisions," we have limited information to go on. Whereas LJ had worked with him for 4 months and can talk to people within in the game - to get Tomlin's "DNA" - and still he signed him.

This signing and failure to produce highlights LJ's lack of experience, and smacks of his over-confidence in himself - in his (annual) guardian interview last summer, he talked about "emotional intelligence" separating the "men from the boys" amongst pro coaches, but his "EQ" failed him with Tomlin. Pretty big talk to set yourself up as a "man" amongst coaches; think he has a way to go there, as his Tomlin problem suggests.

And then there is Adam Matthews.

This inexperience very nearly cost us our Championship status this season (in the opinion, the uninformed opinion, of course; like your "nothing wrong with the man management" comment) and goes some way to explaining so much of the "noise" around LJ and SL this season. 

I think this is worth adding to your "nothing wrong with the man management" comment, to give a more balanced, albeit "uninformed," view.

 

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Just now, Jack Dawe said:

"Nothing wrong with the man management" no, as you say, with someone with a poor attitude, there's only so much that can be done. But what you have overlooked there is the judgement in the first place, the over-confidence of LJ last summer - witness, the "Europa League" comment - the super-confidence in himself. Go back and look at LJ's comments when Tomlin signed and LJ makes reference to Tomlin's character and need to be handled carefully. He knew what he was taking on but thought he could cope (where Eddie Howe could not!)

The judgement on the player - whether to sign or not - comes before the man management; get the judgement in recruitment right, and the man management takes care of itself.

Ah, but everyone wanted him to sign, will be one retort. Yes, but as SL told us recently, we don't make "informed decisions," we have limited information to go on. Whereas LJ had worked with him for 4 months and can talk to people within in the game - to get Tomlin's "DNA" - and still he signed him.

This signing and failure to produce highlights LJ's lack of experience, and smacks of his over-confidence in himself - in his (annual) guardian interview last summer, he talked about "emotional intelligence" separating the "men from the boys" amongst pro coaches, but his "EQ" failed him with Tomlin. Pretty big talk to set yourself up as a "man" amongst coaches; think he has a way to go there, as his Tomlin problem suggests.

And then there is Adam Matthews.

This inexperience very nearly cost us our Championship status this season (in the opinion, the uninformed opinion, of course; like your "nothing wrong with the man management" comment) and goes some way to explaining so much of the "noise" around LJ and SL this season. 

I think this is worth adding to your "nothing wrong with the man management" comment, to give a more balanced, albeit "uninformed," view.

 

I think the signing of Tomlin was understandable - after all, we all wanted it, and I suspect Tomlin was a better prospect on loan than he was as a permanent signing.  I was crying out for him to be signed and celebrated what I thought would be the key piece in the jigsaw.  I suspect Johnson will have learned from the experience, as others have learned from similar experiences (some of which have gone down in folklore at City).

I do agree about Adam Matthews though.  I don't know what the hell is going on with that man, but his attitude does not seem to be that of a professional footballer and I wonder how he got as far as he did?  Surely someone must have spotted last season that all was not well with the man, either in terms of his fitness or his psychology?  Big mistake, and I agree a potentially damaging one.

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As an addition to my post above, I would say, that without the added problems of "man managing" difficult players like Tomlin and Matthews, take that away, and I do think that LJ can coach and improve younger, or "lesser," players. Like he was starting to do at Barnsley. Stick to up-and-coming ones, LJ, younger players that will be "all ears" and ready to lap up your ideas.

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2 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

As an addition to my post above, I would say, that without the added problems of "man managing" difficult players like Tomlin and Matthews, take that away, and I do think that LJ can coach and improve younger, or "lesser," players. Like he was starting to do at Barnsley. Stick to up-and-coming ones, LJ, younger players that will be "all ears" and ready to lap up your ideas.

Totally agree JD.

His inexperience will be challenged by experienced players or players who've played at better levels.  I think he will focus on the younger types.

id be happy with a young, energetic team, with the oldies being Flint, Frankie etc.

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Just now, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

I think the signing of Tomlin was understandable - after all, we all wanted it, and I suspect Tomlin was a better prospect on loan than he was as a permanent signing.  I was crying out for him to be signed and celebrated what I thought would be the key piece in the jigsaw.  I suspect Johnson will have learned from the experience, as others have learned from similar experiences (some of which have gone down in folklore at City).

I do agree about Adam Matthews though.  I don't know what the hell is going on with that man, but his attitude does not seem to be that of a professional footballer and I wonder how he got as far as he did?  Surely someone must have spotted last season that all was not well with the man, either in terms of his fitness or his psychology?  Big mistake, and I agree a potentially damaging one.

LJ's "emotional intelligence" found its limits with Tomlin and Matthews. Indeed, LJ's soaring confidence last summer was dashed against the rocks of reality between November and the Preston game. No bad thing in the long run, I would say (as we stayed up). 

He needs to have a better summer than last, or he will find himself with more "man management" to do, and that getting in the way of the coaching, the coaching that produced the sort of football that saw us 3:0 up at Derby, the sort of football we would love to see more of.

Here's hoping.

 

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Just now, Thatch35 said:

 

Only to go to another club and have a superb season...scoring goals and assists. Typical City if he goes. A manager clueless.

If he goes to the right club, e.g. A club with the players to accommodate him, then yes he will.

Defending LJ (for once!), it is not clueless management to offload him.  He played 33 minutes in our last 6 games.  I thought the 31 minutes v Brum were undeserved.

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9 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

I think the signing of Tomlin was understandable - after all, we all wanted it, and I suspect Tomlin was a better prospect on loan than he was as a permanent signing.  I was crying out for him to be signed and celebrated what I thought would be the key piece in the jigsaw.  I suspect Johnson will have learned from the experience, as others have learned from similar experiences (some of which have gone down in folklore at City).

 

Yes, for an inexperienced coach.

And for "uninformed" people like you and me (I, too, thought it exciting). But we need more from our head coach.

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A season is a long time in football. Last pre season people were desperate for him to sign . Me included. Remember reading messages people sent him on twitter. Real desperate stuff . Then he signed euphoria. Now people want him gone. If we were a top 6 side he would be showing his class. As we would be more on the front foot and playing with confidence. In a relegation threatened side . Can't play him . His defensive side to his game isn't good enough as we all know. On loan last season it worked. He was desperate to play football. He was the main man . He was playing for his future. Lee Tomlin is certainly a frustrating one 

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20 minutes ago, Thatch35 said:

 

Only to go to another club and have a superb season...scoring goals and assists. Typical City if he goes. A manager clueless.

You never fail to disappoint, do you? 

Yes of course this might happen, but bigger clubs than us have already given up on him, so don't hold your breath.  What would you have done with him this season then?  How would you have made it work at Ashton Gate?  Would you have continued picking him after the Preston match?  Do you think we would still be in the Championship if he had stayed in the team?  I'm genuinely interested in your analysis so let's have it.

'A manager clueless', eh?  You're not 'a fan clueless' by any chance, are you?

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