Our scouting set up.

[GrahamC]

I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine this, but didn't we advertise one or two vacancies in our scouting set up at the start of the summer?

I think it was to replace the guy who we got from Bournemouth (Des Taylor?) and also for a European scout possibly.

I haven't seen anything official about anyone being appointed, so wonder if anyone knew anything?

The other thing that got me thinking about this was Tinnion flying to Stockholm this week to watch a game, does that mean that he now has one of these jobs, then?

Or is he merely holding the fort until someone else starts?

[BobBobSuperBob]

6 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine this, but didn't we advertise one or two vacancies in our scouting set up at the start of the summer?

I think it was to replace the guy who we got from Bournemouth (Des Taylor?) and also for a European scout possibly.

I haven't seen anything official about anyone being appointed, so wonder if anyone knew anything?

The other thing that got me thinking about this was Tinnion flying to Stockholm this week to watch a game, does that mean that he now has one of these jobs, then?

Or is he merely holding the fort until someone else starts?

We did have Mervyn Day doing some work for us (And Others) but nothing heard since

Not many seem to hang around too long at AG these days

[CodeRed]

Tinnion's role now is to look after all the loans going out, finding good clubs for our u21's to develop and gain experience - and then to watch and monitor them at their loan club. He's no longer in charge of recruitment of young players (LJ decision).........bad though that he didn't make a phone call before flying to watch Engval.

[RedRock]

Should be the foundation stone in building a strong, successful and sustainable Club. 

Just don't think we appreciate that, even now. 

Investment in a decent manager and scouting set up pays greater dividends than making random 'punts' on players or an Academy.

[Cowshed]

4 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Should be the foundation stone in building a strong, successful and sustainable Club. 

Just don't think we appreciate that, even now. 

Investment in a decent manager and scouting set up pays greater dividends than making random 'punts' on players or an Academy.

Why would you not want to run an academy?

The costs are exempt under FFP and youth development is part of the foundations of most clubs. A part. Most football clubs including Bristol City are nowhere near sustainable.

[RedRock]

Just now, Cowshed said:

Why would you not want to run an academy?

The costs are exempt under FFP and youth development is part of the foundations of most clubs. A part. Most football clubs including Bristol City are nowhere near sustainable.

Because with few exceptions like Soton, they fail to deliver value for money. We aren't an exception.  

Watched our lot last night which confirmed all I've ever thought about Academy 'products'. Average in the extreme. Would be surprised if any of the 20 odd players on display ever became consistent Championship performers, with the possible exception of the keepers.

Far prefer spending money on a comprehensive scouting set up watching lower league football, scouting naturally talented, hungry players who will give their last ounce for the privilege of playing Championship football.  

 

[bristolcitysweden]

37 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Tinnion's role now is to look after all the loans going out, finding good clubs for our u21's to develop and gain experience - and then to watch and monitor them at their loan club. He's no longer in charge of recruitment of young players (LJ decision).........bad though that he didn't make a phone call before flying to watch Engval.

Seems like a part time job

[Cowshed]

47 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Because with few exceptions like Soton, they fail to deliver value for money. We aren't an exception.  

Watched our lot last night which confirmed all I've ever thought about Academy 'products'. Average in the extreme. Would be surprised if any of the 20 odd players on display ever became consistent Championship performers, with the possible exception of the keepers.

Far prefer spending money on a comprehensive scouting set up watching lower league football, scouting naturally talented, hungry players who will give their last ounce for the privilege of playing Championship football.  

 

Bristol City's annual losses for a couple of seasons would cover the academy costs for twenty years. Bristol City spunking money up the wall on unsuccessful transfers is not value for money, or an exception.

In the case of academies its hard to define what value for money is. Academies are investment in the future. Bristol City's cat 2 status and its merit can only be judged over decades - A kid entering at nine will be still in normal development stages ten years later.

An academy is part extension of a football club and fulfils a socio community aspect. I would like to see the academies activity extended in the manner European models work with schools and junior football clubs developing best practices for the benefit of kids playing football and the FC's.

Far prefer spending money on a comprehensive scouting set up watching lower league football .. There are scouts everywhere from Ashton boys tournament last Saturday to exit trials to the Western League and on. 

Far prefer spending money on a comprehensive scouting set up watching lower league football, scouting naturally talented, hungry players who will give their last ounce for the privilege of playing Championship football ... Struggling to understand this point. Talent is hard work, deliberate practice, its unnatural as its clearly not genetic and is nurtured unless you believe babies leave the womb doing kick ups  Players in the lower leagues have less ability and desire than those further up the pyramid, that is why they are there generally. It is not an argument not to employ scouts, but your point is not a reason to abandon youth development.

 

[RedRock]

Fair do's. Thanks for the comprehensive response.

After 20 years, or however long it's been, just getting a little tired of the 'one's for the future' line. The future never seems to come. 

May surprise you but I share and applaud SL's vision of a largely home-grown team. Having watched our youth last night -  making the assumption they represent the cream of the crop and that the systems that brought these youngsters on are still in place at younger levels - I'm pretty sure that won't happen in his or my lifetime. 

Maybe the new guy will shake things up and suddenly, with a revamped Academy and 'development process' everything will become rosy. I do hope so, really do. On the past Academy performance and what I witnessed yesterday clearly something needs to radically change. 

The point I was making in the last para. (badly) is that perhaps  lads who haven't been 'pampered', who have experienced the trials and tribulations of getting and holding down a job may be a little more 'up for it' and put the extra mile in.

Maybe I'm a 'old school' Warnock type of man. He got a couple over our 'modernist' Club last season, let's hope we get our own back this season, particularly now with the Tomlin factor. 

[Major Isewater]

11 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

Fair do's. Thanks for the comprehensive response.

After 20 years, or however long it's been, just getting a little tired of the 'one's for the future' line. The future never seems to come. 

May surprise you but I share and applaud SL's vision of a largely home-grown team. Having watched our youth last night -  making the assumption they represent the cream of the crop and that the systems that brought these youngsters on are still in place at younger levels - I'm pretty sure that won't happen in his or my lifetime. 

Maybe the new guy will shake things up and suddenly, with a revamped Academy and 'development process' everything will become rosy. I do hope so, really do. On the past Academy performance and what I witnessed yesterday clearly something needs to radically change. 

The point I was making in the last para. (badly) is that perhaps  lads who haven't been 'pampered', who have experienced the trials and tribulations of getting and holding down a job may be a little more 'up for it' and put the extra mile in.

Maybe I'm a 'old school' Warnock type of man. He got a couple over our 'modernist' Club last season, let's hope we get our own back this season, particularly now with the Tomlin factor. 

Dave Cotterill, Welsh International, played in the Prem.

Liam Rosenior , played in the Prem.

Scott Golbourne, played in the Prem.

There are many others who have passed through our academy and because of / in spite of this have gone on to have good careers in the game .

It must also be remembered that for many years we've kicked around the third division so the quality hasn't been as good.

 I am sure that in the future we will see more players coming through, given the investment and higher standard of player and coaching .

As has been pointed out in addition to providing professional footballers we are also increasing our fan base within the academy and the community.

There isn't too much wrong but Category 1 is needed as we have also lost the cream of our crop to Cat 1 clubs for peanuts .

 I am for the academy.

[Cowshed]

11 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

Fair do's. Thanks for the comprehensive response.

After 20 years, or however long it's been, just getting a little tired of the 'one's for the future' line. The future never seems to come. 

May surprise you but I share and applaud SL's vision of a largely home-grown team. Having watched our youth last night -  making the assumption they represent the cream of the crop and that the systems that brought these youngsters on are still in place at younger levels - I'm pretty sure that won't happen in his or my lifetime. 

Maybe the new guy will shake things up and suddenly, with a revamped Academy and 'development process' everything will become rosy. I do hope so, really do. On the past Academy performance and what I witnessed yesterday clearly something needs to radically change. 

The point I was making in the last para. (badly) is that perhaps  lads who haven't been 'pampered', who have experienced the trials and tribulations of getting and holding down a job may be a little more 'up for it' and put the extra mile in.

Maybe I'm a 'old school' Warnock type of man. He got a couple over our 'modernist' Club last season, let's hope we get our own back this season, particularly now with the Tomlin factor. 

I would feel fans of any club would want to see their FC having local lads / players from the region in its XI. Its why the football clubs existed.

Youth development is a long term in the extreme. Bristol City's academy has not been run consistently for an extended period. The academy you highlighted has always been a fundamental part of that FC regardless of who is in charge. This hopefully is changing, but the academy is just one aspect of the FC, an aspect in cost that will be less than a 10% of the wage bill.

Regarding lads in academies. Yes they are looked after, but academies are not soft, the kids there are more driven than their peers, they are the % of a % just to get there, in return they will them make sacrifices that many parents would not allow their kids to enter into and the security they get is a yearly contract (some clubs offer two).  The contracts and money associated with some of City's and Rovers seventeen and eighteen year olds is hardly lucrative - Scaffolding pays more.

 

 

[Lanterne Rouge]

10 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Dave Cotterill, Welsh International, played in the Prem.

Liam Rosenior , played in the Prem.

Scott Golbourne, played in the Prem.

There are many others who have passed through our academy and because of / in spite of this have gone on to have good careers in the game .

It must also be remembered that for many years we've kicked around the third division so the quality hasn't been as good.

 I am sure that in the future we will see more players coming through, given the investment and higher standard of player and coaching .

As has been pointed out in addition to providing professional footballers we are also increasing our fan base within the academy and the community.

There isn't too much wrong but Category 1 is needed as we have also lost the cream of our crop to Cat 1 clubs for peanuts .

 I am for the academy.

Matt Hill too?

[Monkeh]

Yep Matt hill played in the prem so did lita and Harley may of with swansea

[Sleepy1968]

10 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Yep Matt hill played in the prem so did lita and Harley may of with swansea

I wouldn't say lita was a prodect of our academy, he came from chelsea's youth set up didn't he?

[Monkeh]

5 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

I wouldn't say lita was a prodect of our academy, he came from chelsea's youth set up didn't he?

Didn't play for the academy for 2 years before our first team? Same team as Liam wasn't it?

you may be right 

[Sleepy1968]

2 hours ago, Monkeh said:

Didn't play for the academy for 2 years before our first team? Same team as Liam wasn't it?

you may be right 

He must have spent some time in the academy/youth & reserve teams before stepping up to the first team. It wouldn't have been much though, and it's probably a bit of a stretch to claim him as a product of our academy. He seemed another that was difficult to handle, and I always wonder was there an underlying issue that kept him out of that play off final completely. Cus I'd really like to think that Danny Wilson had a proper reason for that (non) team selection!

[Fiale]

On 13/07/2017 at 16:15, GrahamC said:

I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine this, but didn't we advertise one or two vacancies in our scouting set up at the start of the summer?

I think it was to replace the guy who we got from Bournemouth (Des Taylor?) and also for a European scout possibly.

I haven't seen anything official about anyone being appointed, so wonder if anyone knew anything?

The other thing that got me thinking about this was Tinnion flying to Stockholm this week to watch a game, does that mean that he now has one of these jobs, then?

Or is he merely holding the fort until someone else starts?

Think he went out mainly to chat to Engvall and watch a game killing to birds and all that. 

[KeepUpLino]

On 13/07/2017 at 18:19, Moor2Sea said:

Should be the foundation stone in building a strong, successful and sustainable Club. 

Just don't think we appreciate that, even now. 

Investment in a decent manager and scouting set up pays greater dividends than making random 'punts' on players or an Academy.

Totally agree, the club is niave as ever and in my opinion will be relegated next season... cheap options on a string is not the way but try telling Mr SL this!!! 

[BS10 RED]

 I've heard a rumour that David Horseman is coming back to work within our academy. That may be why Tinnion has been given a different role to take up.

For those of you who don't know who he is here's a link. https://uk.linkedin.com/in/david-horseman-1503742a

I believe he's the step father of Jacob Maddox who we had in our academy but was signed by Chelsea.

[robin_unreliant]

On 14/07/2017 at 08:18, Major Isewater said:

There isn't too much wrong but Category 1 is needed as we have also lost the cream of our crop to Cat 1 clubs for peanuts .

 I am for the academy.

Heard others saying this. Cat 1 is a lot more money on top of what we spend already. Who are the 'cream of the crop' who would have pushed us on to promotion if they'd stayed? I remember one who briefly looked good at Newcastle then disappeared from view (anita was it?). While it must feel a good thing to have an Academy at the club - a bit like creating a family feel - I'm in the school that sees it as a waste of money. Rather use the money to buy up youngsters who have gone through the big prem teams' acadamies when their clubs release them.

[nellie]

2 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

Heard others saying this. Cat 1 is a lot more money on top of what we spend already. Who are the 'cream of the crop' who would have pushed us on to promotion if they'd stayed? I remember one who briefly looked good at Newcastle then disappeared from view (anita was it?). While it must feel a good thing to have an Academy at the club - a bit like creating a family feel - I'm in the school that sees it as a waste of money. Rather use the money to buy up youngsters who have gone through the big prem teams' acadamies when their clubs release them.

Do we really need to be a CAT 1 academy Bournemouth in the prem are only. CAT 3 academy 

[samo II]

I think our academy/youth set-up will always look poor until the right of cat ones to steal (and I use that term deliberately) the very best at a young age is revoked.

A couple of recent examples are Maddox and Herbie Kane going to Liverpool and Chelsea respectively - both those clubs spend tens of millions each season to bring in the top players in Europe, with even their young players eventually having to move on to other teams to get games, a la Tammy and Chalobah and Baker (I could go on; it's a long list).  So why do they need so many top rated youngsters they'll never play?

Kane has been called the next Stevie G; well, Gerrard debuted at 18 and played over ten times that first year, while Kane is 19 this year and hasn't even been brought in for a cup match to my knowledge.

The hoovering up of these kids and essentially denying them real football until much older than the previous generation might keep them fit for the England under 17s, 18s and 19s, but personally think it is ruining their progression.

(Side point; would be happy if we brought in Kane now Tomlin has gone - if the boy needs game time to develop, why not with his boyhood club?)

[Lanterne Rouge]

9 hours ago, samo II said:

I think our academy/youth set-up will always look poor until the right of cat ones to steal (and I use that term deliberately) the very best at a young age is revoked.

A couple of recent examples are Maddox and Herbie Kane going to Liverpool and Chelsea respectively - both those clubs spend tens of millions each season to bring in the top players in Europe, with even their young players eventually having to move on to other teams to get games, a la Tammy and Chalobah and Baker (I could go on; it's a long list).  So why do they need so many top rated youngsters they'll never play?

Kane has been called the next Stevie G; well, Gerrard debuted at 18 and played over ten times that first year, while Kane is 19 this year and hasn't even been brought in for a cup match to my knowledge.

The hoovering up of these kids and essentially denying them real football until much older than the previous generation might keep them fit for the England under 17s, 18s and 19s, but personally think it is ruining their progression.

(Side point; would be happy if we brought in Kane now Tomlin has gone - if the boy needs game time to develop, why not with his boyhood club?)

It sounds like one of those ideas which was designed to benefit the England team long term - ensure the best kids get the best coaching etc. and stop lower league clubs hanging on to them out of sheer bloody mindedness but, as always, money takes over and the big clubs, rather than care about developing a future England player for the good of all just see it as a way of getting all the best youngsters for a pittance that they can then make millions on down the line.

The road to hell (or is it Hull?) is paved with good intentions.

[View from the Dolman]

On 15/07/2017 at 00:11, cityboy99 said:

 I've heard a rumour that David Horseman is coming back to work within our academy.

...and it's now happened: https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/horseman-returns-to-academy-setup/

[GrahamC]

On 13 July 2017 at 16:23, BobBobSuperBob said:

We did have Mervyn Day doing some work for us (And Others) but nothing heard since

Not many seem to hang around too long at AG these days

As this thread has been "bumped" LJ quoted Mervyn Day yesterday when talking about the signing of Luke Steele, which suggests he is still with us in some capacity..

[spudski]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

As this thread has been "bumped" LJ quoted Mervyn Day yesterday when talking about the signing of Luke Steele, which suggests he is still with us in some capacity..

Seems he's still working with us... obviously not much in Spain then

According to LJ, he's allowing MA to decide how he wants to structure the Scouting network.

From the recent BP article...

Both Ashton and head coach Lee Johnson have explained previously how the club has improved the infrastructure over the recent past to get their targets right including the recruitment of more analysts for their 'expanding analysis department' , use of bespoke scouting software and databases, and monitoring and analysis of players' social media profiles.

And Lee Johnson confirmed yesterday that City scout Mervyn Day has been helping to fill in across the summer as the club continues to look for a new head of UK scouting and separately a position of head of international scouting.

International Scout

Company Name Bristol City Football Club

Dates Employed Oct 2015 – Present

Employment Duration 2 yrs

Location Bristol, Bristol, United Kingdom

International Scout, mainly concentrating on Spain

 

Talking of Scouting...did anyone else read the Interview in the paper today with GJ?

Didn't realise just how ill he'd been.

His uncle and brother still Scout for him. Didn't realise it was his Uncle who found Ian Wright.

He seems to think they have found the next Ian Wright from the same Club he came from....a lad named Mohamed Eisa who's scored 4 times for them this season. Apparently naturally gifted and needs no coaching. Straight from Amateur footy.

All came from sending a video in of himself playing.

 

[GrahamC]

13 minutes ago, spudski said:

Seems he's still working with us... obviously not much in Spain then

According to LJ, he's allowing MA to decide how he wants to structure the Scouting network.

From the recent BP article...

Both Ashton and head coach Lee Johnson have explained previously how the club has improved the infrastructure over the recent past to get their targets right including the recruitment of more analysts for their 'expanding analysis department' , use of bespoke scouting software and databases, and monitoring and analysis of players' social media profiles.

And Lee Johnson confirmed yesterday that City scout Mervyn Day has been helping to fill in across the summer as the club continues to look for a new head of UK scouting and separately a position of head of international scouting.

International Scout

Company Name Bristol City Football Club

Dates Employed Oct 2015 – Present

Employment Duration 2 yrs

Location Bristol, Bristol, United Kingdom

International Scout, mainly concentrating on Spain

 

Talking of Scouting...did anyone else read the Interview in the paper today with GJ?

Didn't realise just how ill he'd been.

His uncle and brother still Scout for him. Didn't realise it was his Uncle who found Ian Wright.

He seems to think they have found the next Ian Wright from the same Club he came from....a lad named Mohamed Eisa who's scored 4 times for them this season. Apparently naturally gifted and needs no coaching. Straight from Amateur footy.

All came from sending a video in of himself playing.

 

Interesting.

I thought that post was advertised quite some months ago now?

Funnily enough I specifically mentioned Eisa on the transfer forum a few weeks ago after his excellent start at Cheltenham, but mainly got sarcastic replies or was told we had too many strikers already..

Scored something like 40 for Greenwich Borough last season (Wright's old club), I believe.

[Phileas Fogg]

18 minutes ago, spudski said:

Seems he's still working with us... obviously not much in Spain then

According to LJ, he's allowing MA to decide how he wants to structure the Scouting network.

From the recent BP article...

Both Ashton and head coach Lee Johnson have explained previously how the club has improved the infrastructure over the recent past to get their targets right including the recruitment of more analysts for their 'expanding analysis department' , use of bespoke scouting software and databases, and monitoring and analysis of players' social media profiles.

And Lee Johnson confirmed yesterday that City scout Mervyn Day has been helping to fill in across the summer as the club continues to look for a new head of UK scouting and separately a position of head of international scouting.

International Scout

Company Name Bristol City Football Club

Dates Employed Oct 2015 – Present

Employment Duration 2 yrs

Location Bristol, Bristol, United Kingdom

International Scout, mainly concentrating on Spain

 

Talking of Scouting...did anyone else read the Interview in the paper today with GJ?

Didn't realise just how ill he'd been.

His uncle and brother still Scout for him. Didn't realise it was his Uncle who found Ian Wright.

He seems to think they have found the next Ian Wright from the same Club he came from....a lad named Mohamed Eisa who's scored 4 times for them this season. Apparently naturally gifted and needs no coaching. Straight from Amateur footy.

All came from sending a video in of himself playing.

 

Maybe we can nab him in exchange for all the loans we send!

 

[redcherryberry]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Interesting.

I thought that post was advertised quite some months ago now?

Funnily enough I specifically mentioned Eisa on the transfer forum a few weeks ago after his excellent start at Cheltenham, but mainly got sarcastic replies or was told we had too many strikers already..

Scored something like 40 for Greenwich Borough last season (Wright's old club), I believe.

Yeah I noted you mentioned Eisa the other day Graham. From clips I've seen he looks razor sharp & full of pace, very exciting. I'm due to watch our 3 loan lads at some point & when I do ill give you a report on Eisa.

[Kid in the Riot]

2 hours ago, redcherryberry said:

Yeah I noted you mentioned Eisa the other day Graham. From clips I've seen he looks razor sharp & full of pace, very exciting. I'm due to watch our 3 loan lads at some point & when I do ill give you a report on Eisa.

40 goals in non-league mate.  The goals are the same size in league football