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So, Taylor Moore....


Antman

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1 hour ago, JamesBCFC said:

Ah yeah, 25 minutes in a friendly is the perfect amount of time to judge a player.

25 minutes more than many players get when they join us.

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7 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

I'm still getting used to the fact we're signing players younger than me!

Time for me to accept I will never be a City player.

I accepted that eventuality when I was still at junior school. :(

Edit: That I would never play for City, not that you would not!

 

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30 minutes ago, Londoner said:

I can comment on him....time and time again he gets dragged to the Ball only to leave a runner in behind him....pretty basic really but I assume fill back isn't his natural position.....it cost us goals last season.

Yep million miles off.

Examples?  In the 4 games he got pitch time at RB, we only conceded 2 goals in the time he was on the pitch 

Forest at home?  He didn't cover himself in glory in the early passage for that goal.  You can have that

Barnsley at Oakwell?  Nothing to do with him for Hammill's last minute equaliser.

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8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Examples?  In the 4 games he got pitch time at RB, we only conceded 2 goals in the time he was on the pitch 

Forest at home?  He didn't cover himself in glory in the early passage for that goal.  You can have that

Barnsley at Oakwell?  Nothing to do with him for Hammill's last minute equaliser.

From what I've seen of him Dave , I think it's a probably a comment made of the back of one moment (Forest) when he looked , in that moment very naive as a full back

Although it wasn't good absolute madness to judge him on one mistake

I know LJ publicly criticised him for Pitmans goal at Ipswich but I'd be far less critical about that moment

I'm not sure what will become of him , can see him ending up at Plymouth or somewhere but can also see him making a career at this level or even above

I see qualities in him and weaknesses too and he's a difficult one to call IMHO

Heartened by your view of him and his 'pedigree' to this point suggests he has the potential to play at a very decent level (Although plenty of England U18 / U20 / U21 players have failed to carve out a career in the upper levels - that's sport / football as we know)

Like yourself I'd see a future for him him as a second centre back , or in a three, More so than a fullback (Thought Brownhill did a better emergency job at RB) , (not that he should be wasted there other than a real emergency)

Think the next 12 months for him will be telling 

 

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11 hours ago, Bobfish said:

I appreciate this issue is often just used as a stick to beat LJ with, but I must admit that it does have relevance. Our team constantly goes on about the project and bringing young talent through, but it is not done here any more than any other club. Even the poster boy names that are always pulled out like vyner, have had very little game time considering his debut was back in that 4-0 defeat at Hudderfield (I think) not last season but the one before. Sometimes it can feel our bringing through of youngsters is more lip service than reality. Lets think of Mags and moore etc, players who were at other clubs and chose to come here, sold no doubt on the talk of the project, believing they were coming to a club that would “Nurture youth” etc, yet moore and mags have seen three centre backs brought into the club (plus one tried out on trial) since they signed. MA can sell snow to Eskimos, but it is not much of a leap to see that these players are sold on a dream that they then see is not the reality. Young players thrive on confidence, but the reality of our policy must make them feel disillusioned. The same with Engvall too. I am sure all these players knew they had to fight for a place in the first team, earn their chance, but I doubt they expected more players to then be bought in for their positions (Taylor, Đurić and the new guy in Engvall’s situation; Wright, Jens and now Baker for Mags and Moore’s situation.) These addition transfers are no doubt a massive slap in the face for these young players who joined on MA selling them the prospect of breaking into the first team. And I am 100% sure (no source) that MA didn’t tell them extra players would be signed in their positions after their transfers. Remember how engvall tweeted about “always believing or having faith in himself” when we signed Taylor I think, and it would not surprise me if Mags reduced performance last night was due to the baker’s signing. All young players will know they have to wait for their chance and play as understudy to a player ahead of them, waiting for suspension or injury for their opportunity, but to then have extra players signed to go ahead of them in this pecking order of cover for a position is a message painfully loud and clear.

agree with this.

asking a question of the club's development policy isn't about LJ (even tho' there are plenty of folk on here who think it is - the  binary nature of the majority of discussions on the forum can be effing tedious!)

I agree with your point of view - i cannot see what incentive these younger players have to kick on when we sign experienced  players ahead of them. There has been so much talk of 'pathways' into the first team, but Joe and Bobby actually came along years back! and not a lot has happened since.

Do we have the faith to play them or not - at the moment that seems more like 'not' and this isn't home grown talent, brought through the academy - many of the players you rightly mention are  bought and paid for, albeit at U23 level, but add up what we've paid and actually its a lot, and begs another question of how we operate financially.

I thought Taylor Moore looked full of promise, Like Vyner and Maggs i'd like to see him given more of a run - allowed to fail, so long as they are supported and able to learn.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Of all the 'not quite ready' signings from last summer and I include Brownhill and Engvall to O'Dowda, Moore (himself) and Di Girolamo, I think Moore will go on to be the best.  That's difficult to quantify I know, especially when GE and COD have played full internationals, but England cap is a different kettle of fish.

Some of the comments above are interesting:

- no pace - not what I've seen or what I've heard, pace is one of his assets.

- didn't do much at Bury - their GiggLane forum were impressed with him, especially as he was played at RWB predominantly.  They were a struggling side in the relegation zone and without regurgitating stats I've posted previously, their points tally per game went up massively and goals conceded per game dropped significantly

He appears to have filled out over the summer too.  Centre Back is a difficult position to be trusted in as a youngster, especially a slight one.  Some 19 year olds are men at 19, some aren't.

We seem to be in an awful rush on this forum to make snap judgements on players.  I suspect some posters have never actually seen him play.  Those snap judgements are also black and white - 'best thing since sliced bread' or 'Downs `League at best'.  99% are somewhere in between.  I'll give you Bas Savage though! :P

Its gonna be tough for TM, but doors open unexpectedly.

Flint is off - let's assume.

Baker suspended for Barnsley, nor up to speed.

What if Wright or Magnússon or Hegeler have a 'mare or get injured, or suspended - all of a sudden he's in the frame.

Got 2 seasons left on his contract - why rush? 

agree with you -  my concern is that not enough opportunity is actually there for the fringe players to see a pathway forward.

With Baker signing - we HAVE to assume Flint is off, otherwise why??? (I think Baker is a great CB btw) but what does it say to Magnussen or even TM about opportunity.

I can't really agree about players having a bad run - we've seen players run out regularly through some pretty dismal performances, mass bemusement on the terraces!! and when younger players have come in and done quite well, they've been dropped pretty quickly as soon as the other player is available again. Of course to counter my own argument - there is logic in not chopping and changing.

I'm not sure our financial position has improved that much that we can punt £1m on TM, £1M+ on Maggs £1.5M+? on Gustav etc. it wasn't that long ago we were told that we had to tighten our belts, and even last season we were told that the squad had to be trimmed. in some respects I love that we think nothing of spending that much on fringe and reserve players, shows that we have set our sights higher, but counter that with the thought that can we really afford it!!!

 

 

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15 hours ago, kivsy said:

There has been plenty of players aged 16 to 19. Who have made premier league , or championship debuts , done well, then possibly sold on , at bigger clubs than city  

I agree with your posts on this to some extent.  

His age is irrelevant. If he is good enough he is old enough. Abraham had no experience of the Championship or Mens football and did rather well. I think the onus is on Moore to play well and take his chance. Similarly with Vyner and any of the other younger players. When he played last season I always felt his play was a bit loose. He gave a silly penalty away at Fulham in the Lg Cup and got caught out of position at Ipswich away.  He did OK at home to Hull. I personally dont think he is ready for the first team and I would give him another loan option. 

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V Fulham away in the cup he gave a very assured performance as a cultured centre back. Defended well & used the ball far better than an average centre back. He did give away a daft pen though. Clearly a work in progress. One of he amazing things about Flint is that he never got suspended & since the bad knock early on never got injured either. If he goes I think the squad centre backs will get more game time as those occupying the 1st team places would miss more games than Flint ever did. I think Moore would do ok next to a big ugly centre back, but a pairing of him & Maggers would be too nice for me. 

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53 minutes ago, Antman said:

I'm not sure our financial position has improved that much that we can punt £1m on TM, £1M+ on Maggs £1.5M+? on Gustav etc.

It's the going rate for these sorts players now. All three that you've mentioned are either youth or full internationals. You won't find many promising young international players leaving for anything less than 7 figures these days. Not every single transfer is a guaranteed success, some simply won't work out. All three were signed as investments though. I expect we'll see plenty more of Engvall this season whereas Moore may leave on loan. Personally I'd like him to be backup/competition for Pisano which I think is also a likely option.

Quote

it wasn't that long ago we were told that we had to tighten our belts, and even last season we were told that the squad had to be trimmed. in some respects I love that we think nothing of spending that much on fringe and reserve players, shows that we have set our sights higher, but counter that with the thought that can we really afford it!!!

We also made money last summer from Bolasie and Kodjia remember. This summer we've made money (and saved lots of wages) on Tomlin and probably Flint too. We can afford then to spend and reinvest in the side. We know Lansdown is wealthy and the commercial side of the ground is giving us new income all the time.

I think people need to realise that football has changed lots - even in the last 2 or 3 years - player prices are inflated and loan rules tightening up mean we have to have a strong and capable group of players in reserve. People need to realise it's not 2007 anymore and 1-2m isn't that much money to spend on players.

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The amount of money being spent on players like Mags, Moore, Engvall who look so far from being ready especially in relation to the transfer fees really makes me question the scouting and decision making of those in charge and we aren't a club that can afford to make massive risks especially so many being 7 figure fees.  

£6m+ of massive risk 'players for the future' it's ridiculous when have struggled so much over the last year or so, 12 months on and none of those 3 look like they will be starting games.

When the annual reports come out it will be very telling.  

It may be someone else's money but it's deeply concerning that money is being thrown around so recklessly. 

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3 hours ago, AppyDAZE said:

I get this horrible feeling that he will leave without geting much of a chance here, and further on down the line he will be decent..

And we'll be looking on going "Oh bugger, we had him here once.. why did we let HIM go"

Well he was rated by Lens, he's obviously got something to him. I get the same feeling though, one of those players who'll discover his ability immediately after we sell him.

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20 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Examples?  In the 4 games he got pitch time at RB, we only conceded 2 goals in the time he was on the pitch 

Forest at home?  He didn't cover himself in glory in the early passage for that goal.  You can have that

Barnsley at Oakwell?  Nothing to do with him for Hammill's last minute equaliser.

 

12 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

From what I've seen of him Dave , I think it's a probably a comment made of the back of one moment (Forest) when he looked , in that moment very naive as a full back

Although it wasn't good absolute madness to judge him on one mistake

I know LJ publicly criticised him for Pitmans goal at Ipswich but I'd be far less critical about that moment

I'm not sure what will become of him , can see him ending up at Plymouth or somewhere but can also see him making a career at this level or even above

I see qualities in him and weaknesses too and he's a difficult one to call IMHO

Heartened by your view of him and his 'pedigree' to this point suggests he has the potential to play at a very decent level (Although plenty of England U18 / U20 / U21 players have failed to carve out a career in the upper levels - that's sport / football as we know)

Like yourself I'd see a future for him him as a second centre back , or in a three, More so than a fullback (Thought Brownhill did a better emergency job at RB) , (not that he should be wasted there other than a real emergency)

Think the next 12 months for him will be telling 

 

My thoughts from the little I saw last year was, he seemed to let himself down by being over eager . Gave away free kicks by trying to get too tight, I just think, it being a fresh start and new to the English leagues, he tried too hard to make an impression.
I think he will turn out to be quality, with us or someone else , the former I hope. A decent loan last year, and a year older/wiser/stronger . I agree this year could be telling. I agree eventually he will be a centre half , but may earn his spurs at FB to start

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While im all for getting the youth games, we need to sort our first XI out. We put way too much emphasis on youth last summer but that's done now. The best thing we can do now is let them grow at their own pace. I'm a big fan of Taylor Moore but can you imagine him starting next to Wright on Saturday and giving away a pen and Barnsley win 1-0? LJ would get so much abuse. The club are trying to balance this now. We have shed lots of dead weight this summer. I know we brought Baker in but perhaps it was a deal too good to pass up? A good year here and he could go for 5+ mil himself. Taylor Moore would do well to get a few months in L1 at CB. Come back in January and maybe this season we are in a position to give more opportunity to these type of players. I do expect to see a few appearances from the likes of Kelly, Vyner and Taylor Moore but for the most part, they aren't ready yet to play major minutes in a serious championship club. The fact we spent a bit of money on these types doesn't mean we need to just throw them into the fire. I hope we don't lose them before we get the best of them but for now we'll have to be patient. 

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Morning Bristol City people, Southend supporter here. I don't know if any of you have been keeping an eye on Taylor-Moore's progress with us, if you haven't then maybe you'll be happy to learn that he has settled down brilliantly in central defence at Southend and he is an integral first choice defender now. He's strong in the tackle and strong in the air which suits our current line up of three at the back. Sometimes he even breaks from the back and surges forward. He probably needs a bit more practice at surging but he improves with every game. I presume he is being hardened up with the loan to us ready for a return to your squad. Is he Championship quality yet? probably not, but by the time his loan finishes you will have a far more rounded quality player. If you decide that he is surplus, then if he carries on the way he has so far, we would sign him like a shot.

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2 hours ago, Rootshallbloke said:

Morning Bristol City people, Southend supporter here. I don't know if any of you have been keeping an eye on Taylor-Moore's progress with us, if you haven't then maybe you'll be happy to learn that he has settled down brilliantly in central defence at Southend and he is an integral first choice defender now. He's strong in the tackle and strong in the air which suits our current line up of three at the back. Sometimes he even breaks from the back and surges forward. He probably needs a bit more practice at surging but he improves with every game. I presume he is being hardened up with the loan to us ready for a return to your squad. Is he Championship quality yet? probably not, but by the time his loan finishes you will have a far more rounded quality player. If you decide that he is surplus, then if he carries on the way he has so far, we would sign him like a shot.

Where in the back 3 is he playing?

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2 hours ago, Rootshallbloke said:

Morning Bristol City people, Southend supporter here. I don't know if any of you have been keeping an eye on Taylor-Moore's progress with us, if you haven't then maybe you'll be happy to learn that he has settled down brilliantly in central defence at Southend and he is an integral first choice defender now. He's strong in the tackle and strong in the air which suits our current line up of three at the back. Sometimes he even breaks from the back and surges forward. He probably needs a bit more practice at surging but he improves with every game. I presume he is being hardened up with the loan to us ready for a return to your squad. Is he Championship quality yet? probably not, but by the time his loan finishes you will have a far more rounded quality player. If you decide that he is surplus, then if he carries on the way he has so far, we would sign him like a shot.

Now this is encouraging as none of our fans have been able to make an honest assessment of him because he simply has not played.

We can only go off other fans and their views. Granted, as @Rootshallbloke alludes, he may not be Championship ready, but the more game experience he gets, the more equipped he will be. Playing in U23's matches does not do development any good, they need to go out on loan and play in proper competitive matches against more seasoned professionals in front of the bigger crowds.

Would be interesting to find out whether he is more suited to being a RB or a CB, but as our Southend supporting friend says, he's playing in a back 3 at present.

I've always had faith that both he and Vyner would be in our first team in the next year or two, but we can't just keep loaning them out each season. We're not Chelsea. There will come a point where enough is enough.

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2 hours ago, Rootshallbloke said:

Morning Bristol City people, Southend supporter here. I don't know if any of you have been keeping an eye on Taylor-Moore's progress with us, if you haven't then maybe you'll be happy to learn that he has settled down brilliantly in central defence at Southend and he is an integral first choice defender now. He's strong in the tackle and strong in the air which suits our current line up of three at the back. Sometimes he even breaks from the back and surges forward. He probably needs a bit more practice at surging but he improves with every game. I presume he is being hardened up with the loan to us ready for a return to your squad. Is he Championship quality yet? probably not, but by the time his loan finishes you will have a far more rounded quality player. If you decide that he is surplus, then if he carries on the way he has so far, we would sign him like a shot.

There are many on here that were willing to write him off because he had a mixed spell last season in L2. He was played out of position on a team that lacked quality. 

Myself and a few others agreed it was a bad fit for TM. We have always thought highly of him since he was signed. 1.5m from Lens. So he is English but learned the game in a foreign country and one he would probably call home. So was never going to be easy to adjust. We knew his qualities-on the ball were decent. Where he struggled was the physicality and pace of the game. So in that regard, it is pleasing to hear he is doing well in L1 with a good team. People haven’t been so patient with him here due to the price but he still very young and always thankful for the loan clubs that progress our young players. 

Some good questions would be, is he playing in a 3? Is McCoulskey not performing or you guys just going strong and can’t change? He was mostly a sub last season for Newport but scores whenever he gets minutes. Not sure how his all around game is. Not playing suggests he need to work on it? Also we have a few young players that could use a spell in L1 soon. So if you need a winger or keeper next season ask about Jonny Smith(at Tranmere currently maybe available in Jan?) and Max O’Leary who is our 2nd choice atm due to injuries and recruitment. Rate both of them highly. Max doesn’t have as much football under his belt but impressed massively in all his loans in comference and the 6-7 times I have seen him for city(mostly friendlies) he hasn’t done any wrong and most would be comfortable with him playing in a small stretch for us. 

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3 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

There are many on here that were willing to write him off because he had a mixed spell last season in L2.

Not sure people are writing him off, more that they''ve simply not seen the attributes his advocates are seeing.

I'm not a fan from what I've seen, but I take on board a glowing report from Southend, which is encouraging.

As far as his City future is concerned though if we were scouting him right now as a L1 Southend player - however well he is playing - would we be considering a bid, let alone 1.5m?

Can't imagine we would be and still reckon the chances are he'll fall by the wayside should we maintain our Championship status long term.

As I say, encouraging report though and I'll be more than happy to be proved wrong.

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14 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Not sure people are writing him off, more that they''ve simply not seen the attributes his advocates are seeing.

I'm not a fan from what I've seen, but I take on board a glowing report from Southend, which is encouraging.

As far as his City future is concerned though if we were scouting him right now as a L1 Southend player - however well he is playing - would we be considering a bid, let alone 1.5m?

Can't imagine we would be and still reckon the chances are he'll fall by the wayside should we maintain our Championship status long term.

As I say, encouraging report though and I'll be more than happy to be proved wrong.

It is a good point about scouting him now tbf. I only meant it as people would be fine if his contract finished and he moved on. He is still so young and just think he needs the minutes in England which he is getting. For me, his potential is high enough for another 3+1 deal. We have already had the 1.5m outlay and imo his potential is higher than Vyner’s. When I have seen him at RB he looks lost. At CB he looks a player. Idk what his value would be as Southend player but we should be giving him more time. 

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2 hours ago, Rootshallbloke said:

Morning Bristol City people, Southend supporter here. I don't know if any of you have been keeping an eye on Taylor-Moore's progress with us, if you haven't then maybe you'll be happy to learn that he has settled down brilliantly in central defence at Southend and he is an integral first choice defender now. He's strong in the tackle and strong in the air which suits our current line up of three at the back. Sometimes he even breaks from the back and surges forward. He probably needs a bit more practice at surging but he improves with every game. I presume he is being hardened up with the loan to us ready for a return to your squad. Is he Championship quality yet? probably not, but by the time his loan finishes you will have a far more rounded quality player. If you decide that he is surplus, then if he carries on the way he has so far, we would sign him like a shot.

Really good to hear this - thank you for taking the time to post.  It's very encouraging when any fan says "we would sign him like a shot".

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In the few times I've seen him play, I've been encouraged by the way that he's wanted to play - willing to play the ball out rather than hoof it. 

Whats not helped is that he has not looked ready for the first team yet. A couple of years ago we were away to Ipswich between Christmas and New Years, and he was playing some part that evening (cant remember if it was as a sub or not). He looked lost out there, but to be fair the defence wasnt great that night anyway.

So far the loans have been disappointing in the respect that he hasn't really shone yet, but they have been in poorer teams. This far in to his contract, I think this is the season for him to settle in and show what he can do, otherwise he will probably be another to leave. 

With regards to people being more patient with him (compared to say Engval), is that we were always under the impression that he was one for the future, whereas Engval was supposedly ready from day one......

It will be interesting to hear of first hand reports about him. 

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10 minutes ago, Taz said:

In the few times I've seen him play, I've been encouraged by the way that he's wanted to play - willing to play the ball out rather than hoof it. 

Whats not helped is that he has not looked ready for the first team yet. A couple of years ago we were away to Ipswich between Christmas and New Years, and he was playing some part that evening (cant remember if it was as a sub or not). He looked lost out there, but to be fair the defence wasnt great that night anyway.

So far the loans have been disappointing in the respect that he hasn't really shone yet, but they have been in poorer teams. This far in to his contract, I think this is the season for him to settle in and show what he can do, otherwise he will probably be another to leave. 

With regards to people being more patient with him (compared to say Engval), is that we were always under the impression that he was one for the future, whereas Engval was supposedly ready from day one......

It will be interesting to hear of first hand reports about him. 

LJ openly criticised him for Pitman’s winner for not being strong enough.  I watched it back several times and I don’t think he could do a lot about it.  The crossed ball was behind Pitman, Moore was marking him just on the inside / goal side where I’d expect him to be, and Pitman scored a hooked overhead goal....super finish.

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7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

LJ openly criticised him for Pitman’s winner for not being strong enough.  I watched it back several times and I don’t think he could do a lot about it.  The crossed ball was behind Pitman, Moore was marking him just on the inside / goal side where I’d expect him to be, and Pitman scored a hooked overhead goal....super finish.

Yep a lousy way to dig out a young player in my opinion.

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