Gareth Thomas - Hate In Football (Merged)

[Beanhead9]

If anyone gets the chance I'd recommend watching Gareth Thomas - Hate In Football on the BBC I Player. The programme looks at homophobia on the terraces and try's to understand what support a homosexual footballer would have in the modern game. As a City fan I've never really given it a second thought, I have no idea what the clubs policy is on reporting abuse and I've heard it before and probably even naively joined in. Gareth attends an away match with Brighton fans and states there's a normality and acceptance to homophobic behaviour in football and I think he's spot on, it would be good to better understand what positive action our clubs taken on the subject. Gareth concludes by putting forward a code of conduct to all clubs in the football league and the key points include; All programmes, season tickets and match day tickets to highlight a zero tolerance to homophobia and details on how to report if observed. Pre-match video played before every game stating the zero tolerance policy. A minimum 3 year ban for any fan found guilty. Personally I dont think it's PC gone mad just common sense in a modern society.

[Londoner]

7 minutes ago, Beanhead9 said:

If anyone gets the chance I'd recommend watching Gareth Thomas - Hate In Football on the BBC I Player. The programme looks at homophobia on the terraces and try's to understand what support a homosexual footballer would have in the modern game. As a City fan I've never really given it a second thought, I have no idea what the clubs policy is on reporting abuse and I've heard it before and probably even naively joined in. Gareth attends an away match with Brighton fans and states there's a normality and acceptance to homophobic behaviour in football and I think he's spot on, it would be good to better understand what positive action our clubs taken on the subject. Gareth concludes by putting forward a code of conduct to all clubs in the football league and the key points include; All programmes, season tickets and match day tickets to highlight a zero tolerance to homophobia and details on how to report if observed. Pre-match video played before every game stating the zero tolerance policy. A minimum 3 year ban for any fan found guilty. Personally I dont think it's PC gone mad just common sense in a modern society.

I have done research into this, it came to the conclusion that homophobic abuse will be far more prevalent than racism in today's football society....simply because of the numbers involved.

[Ealing Robin]

Was at a conference last year where he did a key note speech about his career and coming out etc, and it really was moving stuff. He was queried about the subject and it's relationship with football, he stated without a doubt there would be homosexual footballers, but cannot see a platform for them to come out due to abuse they would receive from the terraces.

[City Rocker]

11 minutes ago, Beanhead9 said:

Personally I dont think it's PC gone mad just common sense in a modern society.

Agree with that, even though I often feel a bit nostalgic for the edginess and laddishness of 70s/80s football, we've moved on haven't we? Some years ago I went with a group of non-regular football followers to a City game, one of who was a gay female, quite a streetwise girl. She was pretty shocked at the homophobic chanting she heard - I hadn't even noticed it. I don't think she's been to (male) football since. I've been much more aware of it since then.

I would hate to lose that intense, edgy rivalry that we enjoy at football, but no one should feel they're not welcome to join in.

[shelts]

1 hour ago, Beanhead9 said:

If anyone gets the chance I'd recommend watching Gareth Thomas - Hate In Football on the BBC I Player. The programme looks at homophobia on the terraces and try's to understand what support a homosexual footballer would have in the modern game. As a City fan I've never really given it a second thought, I have no idea what the clubs policy is on reporting abuse and I've heard it before and probably even naively joined in. Gareth attends an away match with Brighton fans and states there's a normality and acceptance to homophobic behaviour in football and I think he's spot on, it would be good to better understand what positive action our clubs taken on the subject. Gareth concludes by putting forward a code of conduct to all clubs in the football league and the key points include; All programmes, season tickets and match day tickets to highlight a zero tolerance to homophobia and details on how to report if observed. Pre-match video played before every game stating the zero tolerance policy. A minimum 3 year ban for any fan found guilty. Personally I dont think it's PC gone mad just common sense in a modern society.

Interesting . Is swearing allowed at football?

[TRL]

It's an interesting one. I wonder just how many people are homophobic and how many just sing out such things as "Banter" or see it as just something that is sung at football?

I have no doubt there are homophobes at football matches. But I really do wonder if all singing actually really hate or are scared of gays. I know it has little difference  on how it makes a lesbian or gay feel. I really do think a lot of it is akin to shouting "i hate you" to your mum or dad, you don't really mean it.. and that doesn't make you a parentphobe..... or whatever the correct term is.

That's not to say there are a lot of homophobes out there and this is not meant to brush it under the carpet.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

Merciless and brutal pisstaking is/ was always a big part of going to matches. I don`t think it necessarily indicates that the perpetrators are prejudiced.

[Steve Watts]

8 hours ago, shelts said:

Interesting . Is swearing allowed at football?

Yes....swearing is still allowed at football in the 21st century when you get here...

[Steve Watts]

11 minutes ago, Juan Kerr said:

Merciless and brutal pisstaking is/ was always a big part of going to matches. I don`t think it necessarily indicates that the perpetrators are prejudiced.

But the problem is the perception that being gay is something to take the piss about and make fun of.  That's just akin to starting a sentence with "I'm not homophobic but....."

While that mindset is still prevalent nothing will change.  

[Maesknoll Red]

In the end you won't be able to the the piss out of anyone/anything, as it is belittling or disrespectful.  Taking the piss out of gingers, those with poor dress sense, full kit wanchors, fat people, teams playing poorly.......  where does it stop?  A bit of a trite question, but with some validity.

[The Humble Realist]

4 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

In the end you won't be able to the the piss out of anyone/anything, as it is belittling or disrespectful.  Taking the piss out of gingers, those with poor dress sense, full kit wanchors, fat people, teams playing poorly.......  where does it stop?  A bit of a trite question, but with some validity.

I agree with this analysis of where the world is going...where does it stop is the key questiin...

I put a post up a while ago about the 'she's a whore song ' and whether it was appropriate given Clarke had lost his dad recently...I partly was playing devil's advocate but it indicates where the world/football could end up.   

The Jamie Cuerton song is slanderous...but does that even matter or is it just banter? 

 

[Robbored]

9 hours ago, Beanhead9 said:

IGareth concludes by putting forward a code of conduct to all clubs in the football league and the key points include; All programmes, season tickets and match day tickets to highlight a zero tolerance to homophobia and details on how to report if observed. Pre-match video played before every game stating the zero tolerance policy. A minimum 3 year ban for any fan found guilty. Personally I dont think it's PC gone mad just common sense in a modern society.

He's absolutely spot on. Measures such as those are about the only thing that would stop those moronic supporters that all clubs have from yelling homophobic abuse.

A similar approach has worked with the racial abuse that so many black players were subjected to. 

Ive seen Gareth Thomas many times on tv talking about his sexuality and most people, me included have tremendous admiration for him coming out in the rough, tough macho world of rugby.

[And Its Smith]

As this thread proves, there are still cavemen supporters who think it is okay to belittle someone for their sexuality so any football who came out would get dogs abuse.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

1 hour ago, Steve Watts said:

But the problem is the perception that being gay is something to take the piss about and make fun of.  That's just akin to starting a sentence with "I'm not homophobic but....."

While that mindset is still prevalent nothing will change.  

I wasn`t condoning it as such, just highlighting that crowds/ mobs are brutal. Remember 1000s of fans asking if Victoria Beckham took it up the arse? It`s like psychological warfare, and crude "mind games".

[Maesknoll Red]

8 minutes ago, RedDave said:

As this thread proves, there are still cavemen supporters who think it is okay to belittle someone for their sexuality so any football who came out would get dogs abuse.

You are reading a different thread to me, I can't see any banner waving support for abuse.

[Robbored]

54 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

In the end you won't be able to the the piss out of anyone/anything, as it is belittling or disrespectful.  Taking the piss out of gingers, those with poor dress sense, full kit wanchors, fat people, teams playing poorly.......  where does it stop?  A bit of a trite question, but with some validity.

Abuse of faith,  colour and sexuality are sacrosanct in the eyes of the law and quite right to.

Taling the piss out of fat people, gingers, people with poor dress sense is not quite the same thing. Those people could do something about it...

[CyderInACan]

10 minutes ago, RedDave said:

As this thread proves, there are still cavemen supporters who think it is okay to belittle someone for their sexuality so any football who came out would get dogs abuse.

I disagree. There'd be the odd moron making a comment no doubt but the law of averages dictates that. Society has moved on. 

 

[And Its Smith]

2 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

I disagree. There'd be the odd moron making a comment no doubt but the law of averages dictates that. Society has moved on. 

 

No way.  One person would start a song and there would be a fair few joining in I reckon.  Gang mentality would make true opinions come out 

[reddoh]

1 hour ago, Maesknoll Red said:

In the end you won't be able to the the piss out of anyone/anything, as it is belittling or disrespectful.  Taking the piss out of gingers, those with poor dress sense, full kit wanchors, fat people, teams playing poorly.......  where does it stop?  A bit of a trite question, but with some validity.

steady on but the positive is I am not ginger just grey.

[And Its Smith]

9 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

You are reading a different thread to me, I can't see any banner waving support for abuse.

Someone likening it to swearing and others playing it down.  Nobody is going to come on and say that they are pro gay abuse so I'm reading between the lines a bit 

[And Its Smith]

1 hour ago, Maesknoll Red said:

In the end you won't be able to the the piss out of anyone/anything, as it is belittling or disrespectful.  Taking the piss out of gingers, those with poor dress sense, full kit wanchors, fat people, teams playing poorly.......  where does it stop?  A bit of a trite question, but with some validity.

Likening homophobic abuse to dress sense shows you don't understand it fully.

[CyderInACan]

Just now, RedDave said:

No way.  One person would start a song and there would be a fair few joining in I reckon.  Gang mentality would make true opinions come out 

Disagree again. But then "a fair few" persist in thinking the earth is flat and that we're by far the greatest team the world has ever seen. 

A gay footballer is a non-issue I'd suggest. 

[Maesknoll Red]

2 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Likening homophobic abuse to dress sense shows you don't understand it fully.

Where am I likening it to homophobic abuse, I was just considering where do you draw the line, in essence piss taking is mocking someone different, less fortunate or in a situation whether self inflicted or not.  So, again, where do you draw the line?

[Luxo Jr.]

If you still say that action like this is "PC gone mad", or "you won't be able to make fun of anything any more", it suggests you still don't fully understand what you're dealing with here. It's not about appearance, which we all know you can change - homophobic behaviour is quite simply attacking someone for who they are, for something they cannot change. If you can't realise that even humorous allusions to it are unacceptable then I can't help you.

[Negan]

It's banter at the end of the day, you'll never ever stop it. When we sing "does your boyfriend know you're here" to Brighton fans we know that the majority of them aren't gay, in fact probably none of them are but it's just a football chant. We live in a day and age where someone finds something offensive. We've gone to away games and been called Welsh sheep shaggers, inbreds, yokels etc, doesn't bother me one bit as it's just football banter. We'll soon not be allowed to chant anything but "CITY" incase it offends somebody, and even then someone would pick fault with that. No doubt someone will find offence with this post. 

[gl1]

Homophobia - a dislike, hatred fear of homosexual people,  mainly gay man rather than lesbian women, not exclusively, but primarily so. The word phobic is the key here, as in agoraphobic, the fear of open spaces, arachnophobia - the fear of spiders etc.

Are football supporters in the main homophobic? I have no idea, there are no openly gay players to see if they got shouted abuse at. Until we get one visiting the Gate no one can really say. I know Justin Fashanu used to get abuse from terraces around the country, but that was back then, when Bernard Manning was considered funny and white actors used to black up and overdo Indian accents on 'It Aint half hot mum' I dont feel you can draw comparisons.

Does chanting at Brighton fans 'Does your boyfriend know you're here?' or 'We can see you holding hands' make us as fans homophobic? As a phobia suggests a dislike, fear or hatred of a group of people I dont feel these chants are offensive. Indeed, if the Brighton fans were offended why would they respond with 'One nil to the Nancy Boys'? For me at least it shows a healthy dose of football humour banter.

Now, a guy standing up and shouting offensive remarks about someones sexuality is another matter entirely, but in all my years of watching football at the Gate this has never happened. So is the Ashton Gate crowd PC or just not given the chance to show their true colours as we dont have any openly gay players? In years gone by I have heard 'You black b*****d' shouted at black players, but not not in this millennia, so i think that people have become more tolerant, or just as likely, feel unable to shout abuse at a group they have a phobia of. Until we get an openly gay player, these arguments of homophobia are moot and cannot be tested.

I think for whatever reasons, religious, ideologically, people can have their own opinions about homosexuality, and they are just as valid an opinion as mine or yours. Its only when they force their opinions or use language intended to inflame hatred, belittle or upset someone does it become an issue. I am a gay man and I have a very religious friend who considers it a 'sin'. He doesn't judge me (only his God can do that, apparently) and I dont judge him for having a different view of my sexuality. He socialises with me and my husband, and has from time to time watched City at the Gate. If we had an entire team of gay players he would still watch, enjoy the sport and not let his faith taint his experience of the match. If I tell him that he is wrong and should accept homosexuality does that not make me a bigot as I am being intolerant of his faith?

I'm sure there is homopbia on the terraces, just as there may well be in other sports, your job, the church, my gym or your knitting circle, but the key, as it always has been is until a player comes out and we see the reaction, we cant really make much from this debate.

 

 

[Robbored]

11 minutes ago, Tuggin over Tomlin said:

It's banter at the end of the day, you'll never ever stop it. 

Monkey chants aimed at black players in the past were banter?

 

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

Banter is part and parcel of the atmosphere at football and I have no problem with most of it. But there is a line that shouldn't be crossed, and for me that is personal attacks on individuals, be they players, opposition supporters, police or stewards (especially female). Chants aimed at individuals regarding their look, their sexuality, sexual disease, race or religion are a huge no-no for me. 

[WTFiGO!?!]

 

40 minutes ago, gl1 said:

Homophobia - a dislike, hatred fear of homosexual people,  mainly gay man rather than lesbian women, not exclusively, but primarily so. The word phobic is the key here, as in agoraphobic, the fear of open spaces, arachnophobia - the fear of spiders etc.

Are football supporters in the main homophobic? I have no idea, there are no openly gay players to see if they got shouted abuse at. Until we get one visiting the Gate no one can really say. I know Justin Fashanu used to get abuse from terraces around the country, but that was back then, when Bernard Manning was considered funny and white actors used to black up and overdo Indian accents on 'It Aint half hot mum' I dont feel you can draw comparisons.

Does chanting at Brighton fans 'Does your boyfriend know you're here?' or 'We can see you holding hands' make us as fans homophobic? As a phobia suggests a dislike, fear or hatred of a group of people I dont feel these chants are offensive. Indeed, if the Brighton fans were offended why would they respond with 'One nil to the Nancy Boys'? For me at least it shows a healthy dose of football humour banter.

Now, a guy standing up and shouting offensive remarks about someones sexuality is another matter entirely, but in all my years of watching football at the Gate this has never happened. So is the Ashton Gate crowd PC or just not given the chance to show their true colours as we dont have any openly gay players? In years gone by I have heard 'You black b*****d' shouted at black players, but not not in this millennia, so i think that people have become more tolerant, or just as likely, feel unable to shout abuse at a group they have a phobia of. Until we get an openly gay player, these arguments of homophobia are moot and cannot be tested.

I think for whatever reasons, religious, ideologically, people can have their own opinions about homosexuality, and they are just as valid an opinion as mine or yours. Its only when they force their opinions or use language intended to inflame hatred, belittle or upset someone does it become an issue. I am a gay man and I have a very religious friend who considers it a 'sin'. He doesn't judge me (only his God can do that, apparently) and I dont judge him for having a different view of my sexuality. He socialises with me and my husband, and has from time to time watched City at the Gate. If we had an entire team of gay players he would still watch, enjoy the sport and not let his faith taint his experience of the match. If I tell him that he is wrong and should accept homosexuality does that not make me a bigot as I am being intolerant of his faith?

I'm sure there is homopbia on the terraces, just as there may well be in other sports, your job, the church, my gym or your knitting circle, but the key, as it always has been is until a player comes out and we see the reaction, we cant really make much from this debate.

 

 

I've been mulling over what to post and you've covered my central thoughts.  

I can remember incidents of genuine racism at AG in the early 90's.  I can remember it kicking off between City fans in 1998 ("You're the pride of Pakistan!") when we played West Brom.  I can remember this very debate after the East End was chanting, en mass, "Poppadom" at Leicester circa 2008!

The key here is intent.  

Traditionally, football fans take the piss out of each other over anything they can find, any cheap or quirky stereotype will do.  Local characteristics of the area the opposition is from is such an obvious target, it'd be wasteful not to peddle it.  That's the currency.  Brighton will receive the same treatment as the Welsh for their beastiality or those dirty bastard, wife beating Northerners!  (Is domestic abuse banter still acceptable in 21st Century Britain?  Won't somebody think of the children!).

I badly digress.  

The point I've lost is black players had to go through a horrific time as attitudes were eroding.  But went through it they did.  They didn't have the choice to not come out, so there was no hiding place.  

We have a bit of a 'cold war' on our hands re attitudes towards gay people as there is no litmus test.  

Another anacdote that comes to mind is that Everton FC were the last top flight club to sign a black player, in 1994.  The directors were petrified as they feared the clubs then perceived racist element would be exposed nationally.  However, Daniel Amokachi proved extremely popular with supporters and holds cult hero status to this day.

I largely feel that the gay community needs to take courage in football and come out, rather than assume homophobic bigotry is rife within the game.  I think you will find the vast majority of football fans would prove supportive and any tension would be with the minority and be snubbed out.  

Easy for me to say, I know.

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, WTFiGO!?! said:

 

I've been mulling over what to post and you've covered my central thoughts.  

I can remember incidents of genuine racism at AG in the early 90's.  I can remember it kicking off between City fans in 1998 ("You're the pride of Pakistan!") when we played West Brom.  I can remember this very debate after the East End was chanting, en mass, "Poppadom" at Leicester circa 2008!

The key here is intent.  

Traditionally, football fans take the piss out of each other over anything they can find, any cheap or quirky stereotype will do.  Local characteristics of the area the opposition is from is such an obvious target, it'd be wasteful not to peddle it.  That's the currency.  Brighton will receive the same treatment as the Welsh for their beastiality or those dirty bastard, wife beating Northerners!  (Is domestic abuse banter still acceptable in 21st Century Britain?  Won't somebody think of the children!).

I badly digress.  

The point I've lost is black players had to go through a horrific time as attitudes were eroding.  But went through it they did.  They didn't have the choice to not come out, so there was no hiding place.  

We have a bit of a 'cold war' on our hands re attitudes towards gay people as there is no litmus test.  

Another anacdote that comes to mind is that Everton FC were the last top flight club to sign a black player, in 1994.  The directors were petrified as they feared the clubs then perceived racist element would be exposed nationally.  However, Daniel Amokachi proved extremely popular with supporters and holds cult hero status to this day.

I largely feel that the gay community needs to take courage in football and come out, rather than assume homophobic bigotry is rife within the game.  I think you will find the vast majority of football fans would prove supportive and any tension would be with the minority and be snubbed out.  

Easy for me to say, I know.

Spot on WTFIGO.

Another well thought out reply.