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Concourse seating (lack of)


Rich

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3 minutes ago, cynic said:

I agree with everything you say - but I think its falling on deaf ears in Bristol Sport.

They are only interested in covering their arses mate.

Have to shout louder then.

When I first raised this issue, it was with my brother in law in mind, and our experiences bringing him, unfortunately, we can't bring him with the current situation. Having raised this subject and through speaking to people at the ground, It would appear there are a lot of people who would appreciate somewhere to park their arse for a short while. 

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11 minutes ago, JasonM88 said:

How many ******* times does it have to be said? It's not allowed. Simple, end of, lock it. 

 

Think if we all went back to pre/post match drinking in pubs, the Club would soon adopt a 'can-do' attitude. 

Six inch wide shelves around pillars and walls is hardly going to result in thousands being trapped in the event of a fire or  adversely impact on the structural integrity of a double decker stand. 

Tell you what, a compromise. Put a level surface on top of your litter bins. There we go, now try and make up an excuse why you can't do that. To advance the idea, tell the SAG jobsworths,  the drinks will raidly extinguish any fire in the bin. Jobs a good'un. 

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6 minutes ago, cynic said:

Or put yer pints on the floor while eating yer pie - much safer.

@Mkelly

True.

In an emergency evacuation far better people slide across the floor on a film of spilt alcohol than walk.

Think aeroplane slides. Genius.

Maybe I underestimated SAGs lateral thinking abilities. I hereby withdrawal my demands. 

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17 hours ago, JasonM88 said:

How many ******* times does it have to be said? It's not allowed. Simple, end of, lock it. 

As many times as you want, as it is ******** allowed, it's just that the club haven't done it yet. Though they say they are looking into some form of drop down seating, which is welcome but, not for this season. 

If the topic upsets you, don't read it. Simple.

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10 minutes ago, Rich said:

As many times as you want, as it is ******** allowed, it's just that the club haven't done it yet. Though they say they are looking into some form of drop down seating, which is welcome but, not for this season. 

If the topic upsets you, don't read it. Simple.

The club are looking into drop down seating?  

Not sure H&S will allow it so I guess that'll be the first place the club would look.

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5 minutes ago, Robbored said:

The club are looking into drop down seating?  

Not sure H&S will allow it so I guess that'll be the first place the club would look.

Can you tell me where it states in any literature from H&S that drop down seating, or any seating come to that, is not allowed in a concourse?

Why would they be allowed in a stadium in restricted areas, yet not in a concourse, in specifically identified safe areas?

The term used in the notes from the fans meeting was fold up chairs, but that was added into the notes as an addition. 

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17 hours ago, JasonM88 said:

How many ******* times does it have to be said? It's not allowed. Simple, end of, lock it. 

The SAGs are a safety Advisory group on which group sits a representative from the council public protection office plus building control unless the planning permission specifically states no seats of any kind I fail to see how they can object to drop down seating and on what grounds , Are they going to stop people sitting on the "window ledge" that already exists !

Would be nice if the club made a specific statement as to their objection to clear it up once and all.

As with the FAN meeting replies despite a lot of good work it is being undone by pethetic answers that if they were interested they could answer properly.

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57 minutes ago, Rich said:

Can you tell me where it states in any literature from H&S that drop down seating, or any seating come to that, is not allowed in a concourses?

Don't ask me Rich.

I was never involved with H&S during my working life.

I mentioned it because that's the reason the club have used not to have seating in the concourse.

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On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 18:28, Robbored said:

Don't ask me Rich.

I was never involved with H&S during my working life.

I mentioned it because that's the reason the club have used not to have seating in the concourse.

The clubs recent statement on the subject By Mark was : We are unable to provide traditional seating areas with the concourses due to the following stipulation in the planning application: "Concourse's are both a means of escape and a first sterile area of safety should a stand have to evacuate.  No extra fire loading or obstruction can be introduced within these areas."

So, we've established that there is no obstruction, as the areas suggested are recessed or in corners and, to claim that the seating suggested would be a fire hazard is questionable seeing as we have twenty seven thousand plastic seats already, so, I'm sure a design of seating (metal) could be found that wasn't a fire hazard. And, we've been told it's not a question of cost.

Problem solved, order some seats.

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@Rich

I wrote a lengthy lengthy post in response to your one to me, but my phone screwed it up at the wrong time. So will summarise my views on your response in a few bullet points.

  • Don't disagree that the club have done a great job with matchday experience. My belief is their hands are tied a bit here.
  • Yes it is bigger by about a third but I am assuming this was pre-arranged/signed off with H & S. To my mind the Dolman is a harder stand, perhaps the hardest to evacuate in such a situation in the ground. Bear in mind that turnstiles are not or should not be factored in if there is an evacuation necessary.
  • Plastic seating on a concrete base is less of a risk as concrete doesn't burn, than seating on a base on a concourse floor- the latter seems to be looking like in tile form so not concrete.
  • Plastic bins? Necessity. Again without bins litter could be strewn around. Litter strewn around? Greater fire risk, especially if the floor is not made from concrete. Plus fire guidance in general is not to have a crack at tackling if it's bigger than a waste paper bin.
  • Ovens and other heat sources? Yes very true but I believe- and I might be wrong here- there are self-closing shutters with a reasonable fire rating on catering outlets. The idea of this is to buy time to evacuate the stand safely. Also all concourses sell food, even heated food.
  • Again part of the modern experience, and as above self-closing shutters. In terms of an emergency evacuation, I query whether the pitch would necessarily be used.
  • Rugby? Much lower capacity- both in terms of as a whole and in terms of a stand by stand basis. Far easier to evacuate.

However one thing I will agree on unequivocally, is that there is much more lenience towards a rugby supporter, and you can add cricket to that too.

Your suggestion of metal seats maybe worth looking int for sure, but again IMO would have to be weighted against auto-ignition risks.

Having said that Rich, I actually think the risk of it is not so high- but beyond essentials such as bins for rubbish and I would argue fire hydrants are quite essential, the club are probably obliged legally to keep any nice to have, out- e.g. seats in a concourse.  In terms of structural integrity, in a latter post you made I too agree there probably isn't a risk but do you know what impact fire has on concrete? In the sense of if seats autoignite, the secondary factor to the possible fire or smoke at minimum, would be on the walls to which they are attached.

@cider head Smoke being a major major risk, very true. Autoignition may yield said smoke if not fire which is why I think the club probably can't do this.

PS, @Rich I appreciate we're at different ends of the spectrum on this debate, so that's my last post on it.

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On 19/09/2017 at 00:00, JasonM88 said:

How many ******* times does it have to be said? It's not allowed. Simple, end of, lock it. 

Oh the irony...not a thread I'm terribly interested in anymore but oh the irony.

A post on the Cotts MK Dons thread, well that sang a different tune. :laughcont:

Quote

On 23/10/2016 at 15:26, JasonM88 said:

if you don't want to talk about or see comments about certain subjects **** off the thread, others do want to ******* discuss it.

 

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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Oh the irony...not a thread I'm terribly interested in anymore but oh the irony.

A post on the Cotts MK Dons thread, well that sang a different tune. :laughcont:

 

This ones gone round in circles for years. We’ve been told at least 10 times it won’t happen

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5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Generally agree. Can't think of another club ground which has it in the concourse, and that's the case for a reason.

I'm beginning to believe more than ever that, the reason for a lack of seating has nothing to do with safety and more to do with commercial interests. There are studies which find that bars where music increases in volume gradually, drink consumption also increases, people can't sit and chat, so just drink more.

I'm sorry but, I can't honestly take spontaneous ignition seriously regarding a few metal or plastic seats. Surely they would not be allowed in the stadium if there was that risk.

As for your points about the Dolman being harder to evacuate, if that were the case, why have a drinks outlet at each end and at the narrowest points?

Not logical to think the pitch would not be used to evacuate people. If there were a fire or smoke in the concourse, where do you think people would go? That's after all, why they have emergency exits onto the pitch.

I have a picture of self closing shutters on the bars closing and imprisoning the staff within.

Sorry I think you are grasping at straws to find a reason to explain the lack of seating in concourses. As has been stated, people standing with nowhere to put their drinks down, drink more. There is no logical reason why a few seats on the perimeter and in certain other areas cannot be fitted. Ah sorry I forgot, there is a danger of alien abduction  from perimeter seating within concourse areas.:whistle:

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No conspiracy here, although quite a creative revenue strategy, so I read with interest 

As stated before, I'm happy to meet and illustrate the planning requirements on fire safety to reassure you 

No modern stadium builds have seating in the concourses in the U.K. 

All concessions at AG have self closing shutters on activation of a fire alarm 

Mark 

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45 minutes ago, Mkelly said:

No conspiracy here, although quite a creative revenue strategy, so I read with interest 

As stated before, I'm happy to meet and illustrate the planning requirements on fire safety to reassure you 

No modern stadium builds have seating in the concourses in the U.K. 

All concessions at AG have self closing shutters on activation of a fire alarm 

Mark 

This in particular- thank you!!

Particularly the bit about no seating in concourses in modern builds- hopefully people will now believe it a bit. Never thought I had seen any elsewhere, and lo!

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58 minutes ago, Mkelly said:

No conspiracy here, although quite a creative revenue strategy, so I read with interest 

As stated before, I'm happy to meet and illustrate the planning requirements on fire safety to reassure you 

No modern stadium builds have seating in the concourses in the U.K. 

All concessions at AG have self closing shutters on activation of a fire alarm 

Mark 

So, to be clear, older stadiums in the UK don't have Health and Safety regulations?

I'll look with interest at the new Crossrail tube stations.  I guess they will not have seats as the platforms are egress points in the case of an emergency.

Can you also state categorically that you have no need to cater for people with mobility issues (under current regulations)?

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7 minutes ago, Chivs said:

So, to be clear, older stadiums in the UK don't have Health and Safety regulations?

I'll look with interest at the new Crossrail tube stations.  I guess they will not have seats as the platforms are egress points in the case of an emergency.

Can you also state categorically that you have no need to cater for people with mobility issues (under current regulations)?

Lay off it. 

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17 hours ago, Mkelly said:

No conspiracy here, although quite a creative revenue strategy, so I read with interest 

As stated before, I'm happy to meet and illustrate the planning requirements on fire safety to reassure you 

No modern stadium builds have seating in the concourses in the U.K. 

All concessions at AG have self closing shutters on activation of a fire alarm 

Mark 

Hi Mark, nice to know you're following this.

I don't think reassurance is required regarding fire safety, I'm sure most people are aware that there are requirements that have to be met.

My comment about "self closing shutters" was an attempt at humour, shutters closing by themselves? I work in the construction industry and have enough experience of meeting building regulations, regarding containment of fire, detection of fire, door release systems and means of exit, though not in terms of stadium design I admit, I don't suppose many have,  I've yet to see shutters that close by themselves.

As for no modern stadiums in the UK having concourse seating, there are a few questions regarding that.

Firstly, is that by law, or is it just standard practice at football clubs, where the masses are made to stand? I believe it's probably for commercial reasons, as well as free movement.

Secondly, The Dolman is a refit of an existing stand, so one assumes it would have been built to the same design as the other stands had it been a new design. As such, it would have had a smaller concourse and maybe, been less restrictive at the entrance/exit points in proportion to it's floor area. As it is a refit and considerably more spacious, having the benefit of areas that are recessed, why can't fire proof seating be installed in those areas?

Thirdly, if there are ways of providing seating within planning law, why don't Bristol City/BS, buck the trend of all other less caring clubs at their stadiums and, provide some seats in specific safe areas, for those who are less able, who could then enjoy the facilities the rest of us do?

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19 hours ago, Mkelly said:

No conspiracy here, although quite a creative revenue strategy, so I read with interest 

As stated before, I'm happy to meet and illustrate the planning requirements on fire safety to reassure you 

No modern stadium builds have seating in the concourses in the U.K. 

All concessions at AG have self closing shutters on activation of a fire alarm 

Mark 

You might want to look at Liverpools new concourse in the main stand. Not sure if it has been incorperated yet but it looks like it. They have a seating area and also somewhere to put your drinks. 

http://www.kssgroup.com/projects/anfield-stadium-concourses/

 

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30 minutes ago, Threshing Red said:

You might want to look at Liverpools new concourse in the main stand. Not sure if it has been incorperated yet but it looks like it. They have a seating area and also somewhere to put your drinks. 

http://www.kssgroup.com/projects/anfield-stadium-concourses/

 

Impressive but looks like one of those malls in Dubai.

 

 That’s not a good thing.

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49 minutes ago, Threshing Red said:

You might want to look at Liverpools new concourse in the main stand. Not sure if it has been incorperated yet but it looks like it. They have a seating area and also somewhere to put your drinks. 

http://www.kssgroup.com/projects/anfield-stadium-concourses/

 

I was thinking that they could've put some of the old Williams' seats in along the back wall. 

On a side note, are people made to stand up, if they are found to be sitting on the floor in the concourse? That surely is more of a hazard in an emergency, than sitting on a bench

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8 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I was thinking that they could've put some of the old Williams' seats in along the back wall. 

On a side note, are people made to stand up, if they are found to be sitting on the floor in the concourse? That surely is more of a hazard in an emergency, than sitting on a bench

What's good enough for Liverpool surely must be good enough for us. I really don't buy all this health & safety excuses. P.S. I sat on the concourse floor against the wall last home game just to make a point. But it did take me a few minutes to get up again :laughcont:

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/stadium/234173-8-days-to-go-the-stand-inside-the-new-main-stand-revealed

Just a closer look at it. 

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I'm following this with interest too. No there might not be seating in the concourses of other grounds, but his many have such lovely huge spaces like we have?

Granted I have only been in the away fan facilities at most other grounds, but just about every concourse is very narrow. I did go to QPR a few weeks ago, and found myself in the concourse by the directors box, obviously in the home end. It was really narrow but this had a small area in which there was a betting office, and this had ledges around. These ledges were probably for people to write down their bets but people were using them to put drinks on. 

I'm also thinking that just suppose we hadn't developed, people would be sitting in the Dolman Hall now wouldn't they? Carpet on floors, tables and chairs everywhere. Now we have been refurbished, no doubt with the top range sprinkler system, alarms and non flammable flooring etc, people can't get even a temporary seat. Madness. 

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Just noticed this on the fans experience webpage. Even back then the club were listening to their fans feedback. Obviously they don't have the same Health & safety group as we have. 

"March 2013:

Further to feedback from fans, new mobile tables have been introduced in the lower Kop concourse. These tables provide an area for fans to rest their food/drinks and also contain a waste bin in the centre."

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/fans/fan-experience/lfc-is-listening

 

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