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When to accept your 5m striker is misfiring?


Fordy62

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1 hour ago, pillred said:

where on earth did you get that idea from, every manager at one time makes a mistake with a signing, maybe more than one, overall we seem to be going in the right direction, to say we take delight in his signing of diedhiou failing is blatantly wrong at least in my case it is, and I am one of famaras biggest critics. You cant twist every criticism of things as bashing the manager. 

Never mentioned you or 'Johnson-sceptics' in general. If the shoe fits though.. 

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2 hours ago, Andy082005 said:

...if you say so.

25 players he has bought in? Out of them....how.many have so far proved real value for money?

Well, how about, Brownhill, Baker, Patterson, Bailey, Taylor.  I'd say all value for money.

And in regards to the topic title, Reading's manager Jaap Stam is a good example of giving players time to adapt. He was terrible early on at Utd.

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8 hours ago, Buster Footman's T shirt said:

He reminds me of Wayne Allison when he first arrived at city. Could see that he had a physical presence but at times looked gangly and akward. The Cheif grew in effectivenes over his time with us. At the start he was neither as prolific as Bob Taylor or as canny an operator as Nicky Morgan. These 2 moved on and were replaced by Rosenior, Cole and Jacki all of whom it could be argued were more technically gifted than big Wayne.....but he was still an important part of the squad....must have scared the shit out of opposing defenders. He went on to be a very effective operator at this level for many years (with us, swindle, tranmere, blades etc). Always looked ungainly but eventually very effective at what he did.

Hope Famara can be similar

Presence ???...

This guy makes 'tanglefoot' look like Alan Sheerer..

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6 hours ago, Andy082005 said:

...if you say so.

25 players he has bought in? Out of them....how.many have so far proved real value for money?

Genuine question - what would your view be on the quality of the players, and whether they've improved the team, if we had no idea of their transfer fees? 

I find it really tough to look at fees as they are just so far out of whack from where I'm mentally anchored to. e.g. for me 5m = Chris Sutton partnering Shearer when Blackburn won the league. So I'm trying to ignore them - after all, it's not my money.

Also as discussed they're also just a reflection of the market. And it's difficult to answer the value for money question a few games in to a season and before we consider selling any of these players. 

Prices in the game have moved so far so quickly I think it's distracting to think about them when judging a player. I'm always more interested in views on their actual ability/ how they're impacting our team rather than judgments based on their cost. 

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9 hours ago, Andy082005 said:

...if you say so.

25 players he has bought in? Out of them....how.many have so far proved real value for money?

Firstly - apologies for my first post, I was pissed up and should have put it better

I suppose we can only tell at the end of this season weather his signings have proved value for money, certainly there hasve been some duds but LJ is not the only manager who will sign a player that doesn't work out, were not Manchester Utd who can go and buy real proven quality so we will always be slightly gambling, 

Also what your expectation for this season? For me a 12-14th finish is good progress and would be a good finish - anything higher than that then I would consider the season successful.

finally, the fee, what does 5m really get you  in today's market? A 5m player now was a 1m player 3 seasons ago - im not sure that as fans we should take any notice of fees anymore, they make no sense.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Rob k said:

finally, the fee, what does 5m really get you  in today's market? A 5m player now was a 1m player 3 seasons ago - im not sure that as fans we should take any notice of fees anymore, they make no sense.

It's interesting about the fees in modern football, seems to be taking people a while to fully grasp them. This is understandable because it's all got pretty ridiculous. 

Prior to 15/16 they seemed to stay relatively steady and £1m got you the same sort of quality it got you in 2005/6. 

I see lots of people say things to the effect of "we're Bristol City, not Man City, we can't spend £xxx 'on one for the future'". I always think this is a strange point, clearly we can because we wouldn't sanction it otherwise. The club - like world football finances - has evolved. 

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21 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's interesting about the fees in modern football, seems to be taking people a while to fully grasp them. This is understandable because it's all got pretty ridiculous. 

Prior to 15/16 they seemed to stay relatively steady and £1m got you the same sort of quality it got you in 2005/6. 

I see lots of people say things to the effect of "we're Bristol City, not Man City, we can't spend £xxx 'on one for the future'". I always think this is a strange point, clearly we can because we wouldn't sanction it otherwise. The club - like world football finances - has evolved. 

I think constantly falling back onto the failed signings, or value for money on signings argument, that some people are doing is getting pretty repetitive and boring now.

As already said above, football has changed - i'm honestly scratching my head every time I see someone write about us "wasting over a million on...(ADD NAME)...." constantly, like it's a large sum of money to 'waste'. I often wonder if those people are the same kind of people who I see on OTIB and twitter on transfer deadline day like spoilt children at Christmas writing stuff like "Come of City, just sign someone FFS" . Spending in the championship is going mad :

  • Villa have spent £72m in two transfer windows (not even taking into account wages, John Terry anyone?!).
  • Boro spent THE 10th MOST OF ANY CLUB IN ENGLAND this summer, £47m. Almost as much as Arsenal and more than WBA, West Ham and Burnley. 
  • Wolves spent £15.8m on Neves.
  • Leeds totalled £16m and so on.
  • 8 teams in our division have parachute payments, worth almost an extra £20m of revenue a year, which is more than we earn in gate receipts in a season. 

So my point is teams are increasingly having to spend just to survive. Yes, there will always be the odd club to buck that trend, but generally, as early season results show, the current bottom three spent around £5m in total this summer. The top three spent a total of around £40m. 

We are going to be spending these multimillion pound fees to compete and some will work and some one not. That's football, nothing new there. It's just new to BCFC. But that is the world we are in now.

Anyway back to topic and Famara. Just think about this for a second. The guy has only been in Bristol for 2 months. Yes he's played a few games now, but, not only is this a move to a new, much tougher division, but it's a move to a new country. His life will have changed hugely, not just on the football side. And we all know that off pitch effects on the pitch. Give him chance to settle for goodness sake. 

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It's very hard to gauge really. At half time I was thinking similar... But then I felt we weren't creating anything first half. We could have had sheared up front and it been no different.

While results are ok he should definitely still be involved. Good though that we have options like Woodrow who can help take the pressure off.

As an aside... Bobby Reid 2nd half particularly just keeps trying to make things happen. It is all about belief for me. In the first half, similar against villa, our attacking players looked wary about trying to take players on. They seem to have more of a go in the 2nd half when they stop being cagey and the game opens up...

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1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's interesting about the fees in modern football, seems to be taking people a while to fully grasp them. This is understandable because it's all got pretty ridiculous. 

Prior to 15/16 they seemed to stay relatively steady and £1m got you the same sort of quality it got you in 2005/6. 

I see lots of people say things to the effect of "we're Bristol City, not Man City, we can't spend £xxx 'on one for the future'". I always think this is a strange point, clearly we can because we wouldn't sanction it otherwise. The club - like world football finances - has evolved. 

Transfer fees are now so varied, but in some ways linked to length of contract remaining.  I think in the 80s and 90s the transfer fee for a player remained constant, e.g. Player X is £500k no matter where he was in his contract (apart from right at the end).

Bosman obviously changed that.

Now, tv money, parachute payments have changed it again. Also, I suspect some clubs starting to play hard ball (Coutinho, VVD and even our own Aden Flint) will change it again.

I will happily admit that I thought Diedhiou would be a great signing...and still do.  He looks like he's struggling to adapt at the mo', and this is an unforgiving league.  For £5m of course he'll get judged on goals, but I think in the (home) games I've watched, he's given us more on the teamwork side, and not always on the ball.  He makes intelligent runs to create space, goes long and short to drag CBs away.  I want more from him on the ball, of course, but as a team he is part of a unit that is improving.

Tammy of course had his goals that covered up some of his lack of proficiency in the team work side of things.  Having said that I remember games where he was great in the build up stuff...but they weren't week in week out.

 

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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Transfer fees are now so varied, but in some ways linked to length of contract remaining.  I think in the 80s and 90s the transfer fee for a player remained constant, e.g. Player X is £500k no matter where he was in his contract (apart from right at the end).

Bosman obviously changed that.

Now, tv money, parachute payments have changed it again. Also, I suspect some clubs starting to play hard ball (Coutinho, VVD and even our own Aden Flint) will change it again.

I will happily admit that I thought Diedhiou would be a great signing...and still do.  He looks like he's struggling to adapt at the mo', and this is an unforgiving league.  For £5m of course he'll get judged on goals, but I think in the (home) games I've watched, he's given us more on the teamwork side, and not always on the ball.  He makes intelligent runs to create space, goes long and short to drag CBs away.  I want more from him on the ball, of course, but as a team he is part of a unit that is improving.

Tammy of course had his goals that covered up some of his lack of proficiency in the team work side of things.  Having said that I remember games where he was great in the build up stuff...but they weren't week in week out.

 

Totally agree Dave. I like targetmen types so maybe I'm slightly more forgiving than some.. I enjoyed watching Brooker, Adebola etc. Feel Diedhiou does lots of unappreciated work and am confident Reid would wax lyrical about playing with him.

He will only get better as he adapts. 

In a way, his 'type' of player (bringing others into play etc) makes it more difficult to adapt than a more 'on the shoulder' player like Kodjia.

Kodjia didn't seem to worry about his teammates much, he just concerned himself with making and taking chances.

Diedhiou seems to want to bring others into play and create chances instead; this means he has to learn their runs, learn how they want to receive passes.. all the while his teammates are yelling for the ball in his second language!

Needs time; when he's fully up to speed I think he'll look far better.

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1 hour ago, Rob k said:

 

finally, the fee, what does 5m really get you  in today's market? A 5m player now was a 1m player 3 seasons ago - im not sure that as fans we should take any notice of fees anymore, they make no sense.

 

 

Firstly I am more than happy to give Diedhiou the whole season before coming to any firm judgement on him but this sort of statement (which is regularly trotted out on here) really winds me up.

The fact is for us £5.3m really is an absolute fortune, over £2m more than we have ever paid for any player in our entire history.

It is also a complete nonsense to believe that every club at our level are shopping at these sorts of prices, just because Wolves and Boro might be.

Within the last year Matt Smith and Zohore at Cardiff have both moved for £1m, plus last month Jackson Irvine at Burton (not a striker, I know, but something very rare indeed, a prolific scoring midfielder) cost just half what Diedhiou did. The Icelander up front for Reading yesterday (Bodvarsson?) also cost £1m, as did Ward at Cardiff, who scored a fair few last year for Rotherham.

I know he is getting on, but Clayton Donaldson (2 on his debut at Sunderland yesterday) has just cost Sheff Utd a tenth as much...

So let's stop this myth that every striker at our level costs this sort of amount, as very many of them are far less.

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9 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Never mentioned you or 'Johnson-sceptics' in general. If the shoe fits though.. 

so mentioning some people like to find any excuse to bash Johnson is being specific not general, what's the real difference, you are still having a sly dig at people if they have concerns that £5 million spent on a striker who a the MOMENT looks a donkey is having a go at our manager. 

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6 minutes ago, pillred said:

so mentioning some people like to find any excuse to bash Johnson is being specific not general, what's the real difference, you are still having a sly dig at people if they have concerns that £5 million spent on a striker who a the MOMENT looks a donkey is having a go at our manager. 

Very true, the real agenda by the OP and his quick to like anything this poster posts makes me feel a bit queasy. Be in no doubt it's very much having another dig at LJ ...how many time is the price tagged mentioned? It may not work out, but we are only 6 matches in and already some are finding excuses not to give the coach credit.... if we happen to win at Wolves they will be furious ;)

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18 minutes ago, pillred said:

so mentioning some people like to find any excuse to bash Johnson is being specific not general, what's the real difference, you are still having a sly dig at people if they have concerns that £5 million spent on a striker who a the MOMENT looks a donkey is having a go at our manager. 

You've clearly misunderstood 

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Famara isn't going to be a 'firework' kind of player in the same style as Kodjia. Their records at FC Angers show that. 

The reality is the £5 million fee was no doubt inflated because of the deal we got by selling Kodjia a year later for £15m. Going back to buy Angers' star man again, we would have to pay a premium.

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19 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Now, let me start by saying that I hope this thread goes down in fokelore alongside "Matt Smith is awful". I suppose part of me decided to write it at half time because I'm hoping it might come back to bite me on the arse. 

However, I'm into watching my third or forth game this season and I've seen Fammy do nothing. Nothing at all. It's almost like we're playing with ten. 

Now I know it's going to take time for him to adapt to the Chamionship, but we can't just keep playing with essentially 10 men. Someone else has got to have a go at starting. He isn't effecting the game at all. He's not doing the running that Taylor does, or being a big lump like Đurić (I do accept they're both injured!). 

So he big question is... a storming second half versus Reading aside, when will LJ have the balls to rest him?

by the way, I'm certainly not writing him off, merely suggesting he's earned the right to be dropped. 

I said on another post, his first touch is appalling, his passing is close to appalling and for a big guy he spends an awful amount of time on his arse.

That said he looked a prospect on his debut.

But yes he needs bench time.

 

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2 hours ago, Alessandro said:

I think constantly falling back onto the failed signings, or value for money on signings argument, that some people are doing is getting pretty repetitive and boring now.

As already said above, football has changed - i'm honestly scratching my head every time I see someone write about us "wasting over a million on...(ADD NAME)...." constantly, like it's a large sum of money to 'waste'. I often wonder if those people are the same kind of people who I see on OTIB and twitter on transfer deadline day like spoilt children at Christmas writing stuff like "Come of City, just sign someone FFS" . Spending in the championship is going mad :

  • Villa have spent £72m in two transfer windows (not even taking into account wages, John Terry anyone?!).
  • Boro spent THE 10th MOST OF ANY CLUB IN ENGLAND this summer, £47m. Almost as much as Arsenal and more than WBA, West Ham and Burnley. 
  • Wolves spent £15.8m on Neves.
  • Leeds totalled £16m and so on.
  • 8 teams in our division have parachute payments, worth almost an extra £20m of revenue a year, which is more than we earn in gate receipts in a season. 

So my point is teams are increasingly having to spend just to survive. Yes, there will always be the odd club to buck that trend, but generally, as early season results show, the current bottom three spent around £5m in total this summer. The top three spent a total of around £40m. 

We are going to be spending these multimillion pound fees to compete and some will work and some one not. That's football, nothing new there. It's just new to BCFC. But that is the world we are in now.

Anyway back to topic and Famara. Just think about this for a second. The guy has only been in Bristol for 2 months. Yes he's played a few games now, but, not only is this a move to a new, much tougher division, but it's a move to a new country. His life will have changed hugely, not just on the football side. And we all know that off pitch effects on the pitch. Give him chance to settle for goodness sake. 

Which makes it all the more important that when we do spend our money that it represents value for money where it matters on the playing side, Magnússon, Engvall and COD all from the same window so far do not and Diedhiou maybe another.

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41 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Which makes it all the more important that when we do spend our money that it represents value for money where it matters on the playing side, Magnússon, Engvall and COD all from the same window so far do not and Diedhiou maybe another.

Yes, value for money is important, don't disagree with that. What i'm saying is, backed up by LJ and MA at the Q and A, due to our position in the pyramid, we have to take 'educated gambles' on signings. Most of which will be younger and need developing. Therefore:

A) Some will come off, some will not. There are no guarantees. 

B) City fans will need to accept that many players we sign now will need to be allowed more time, sometimes years, to fully reach their peak. The likes of Bobby, Bryan, Brownhill and Paterson, have all being given time to develop and we are starting to reap the rewards of that. COD and Famara i'm convinced will be the same in time.

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I think the fact is that you will win some and lose some with signings. Overall, I do feel that our squad is probably worth more, in total, than we have spent. Players like Flinty and JB are now worth good money and cost next to nothing.

Given that no club gets every transfer right, I think we should just look at the big picture. Our squad is undeniably stronger than it has been for years. If we get some success that will tend to increase the value of our players too.

If we have a squad that is worth more than it cost us and we are seeing better results on the pitch too I don't see any point in trying to pick holes over individual signings.

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3 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

I think the fact is that you will win some and lose some with signings. Overall, I do feel that our squad is probably worth more, in total, than we have spent. Players like Flinty and JB are now worth good money and cost next to nothing.

Given that no club gets every transfer right, I think we should just look at the big picture. Our squad is undeniably stronger than it has been for years. If we get some success that will tend to increase the value of our players too.

If we have a squad that is worth more than it cost us and we are seeing better results on the pitch too I don't see any point in trying to pick holes over individual signings.

Was going to say similar.

@GrahamC you are absolutely right about not all strikers cost £5m.  Some are more :P.  Seriously though, there are plenty that are cheaper though.  From what I'd seen of Diedhiou before his transfer (which is significantly more than any of the other foreign signings) I really did / do think he has what is needed at this level, and am surprised we've not seen a bit more from him.  I fully expected him to be €3-6m , and we've paid at the top end of that.  I was surprised we spent that much, but I doubt his wages are extreme and makes the overall deal better value (imho).  At 24, he fits the age profile, better than a Donaldson at a fraction of the cost.  The time to have got him was summer ahead of 15/16 season.

Interesting selection ahead of Wolves on Tuesday.  Is Taylor injured again?  LJ bigged him up pre-season, but he didn't make the 18 yesterday!!  Surely Leko and Woodrow are ahead of him....what then happens when Djurić comes back?  Bobby Reid not scored in 3 league games....but I think everyone would agree that his overall game is a big part of our decent-to-good start.

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30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Was going to say similar.

@GrahamC you are absolutely right about not all strikers cost £5m.  Some are more :P.  Seriously though, there are plenty that are cheaper though.  From what I'd seen of Diedhiou before his transfer (which is significantly more than any of the other foreign signings) I really did / do think he has what is needed at this level, and am surprised we've not seen a bit more from him.  I fully expected him to be €3-6m , and we've paid at the top end of that.  I was surprised we spent that much, but I doubt his wages are extreme and makes the overall deal better value (imho).  At 24, he fits the age profile, better than a Donaldson at a fraction of the cost.  The time to have got him was summer ahead of 15/16 season.

Interesting selection ahead of Wolves on Tuesday.  Is Taylor injured again?  LJ bigged him up pre-season, but he didn't make the 18 yesterday!!  Surely Leko and Woodrow are ahead of him....what then happens when Djurić comes back?  Bobby Reid not scored in 3 league games....but I think everyone would agree that his overall game is a big part of our decent-to-good start.

Think Taylor is simply behind Woodrow in the pecking order and on yesterday's evidence both of them are now behind Leko.

He should get some game time v Stoke though with both of the loanees cup tied.

Reid may not be scoring but based on home performances I've seen and reports of those I respect when I have not, he is becoming (along with Frankie) a cert on the team sheet..

For what it is worth, very few people rated Wayne Allison more than me, so I genuinely mean any comparitor with him re Diedhiou as a compliment.

As for Đurić to me he is Diedhiou's only serious "like for like" competition for a place but will need to prove this habit of picking up lengthy niggling injuries is behind him first.

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1 hour ago, robin_unreliant said:

I think the fact is that you will win some and lose some with signings. Overall, I do feel that our squad is probably worth more, in total, than we have spent. Players like Flinty and JB are now worth good money and cost next to nothing.

Given that no club gets every transfer right, I think we should just look at the big picture. Our squad is undeniably stronger than it has been for years. If we get some success that will tend to increase the value of our players too.

If we have a squad that is worth more than it cost us and we are seeing better results on the pitch too I don't see any point in trying to pick holes over individual signings.

Very true.

I wonder what the Cardiff fans feel about their £2.9m signing???

:noexp:

 

....and that's someone who has played all his career in this country!

 

 

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22 hours ago, pillred said:

all right then up to now he has been a waste of money, and apart from scoring 1 goal has looked a donkey, not a great omen for a 5 million player.

He reminds me of the Chief , Wayne Allison, he was an awkward looking player but he came good.

Fammy gets through a lot of unnoticed work to make space for other team members and I am sure that when he gets going he'll take some stopping.

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1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

He reminds me of the Chief , Wayne Allison, he was an awkward looking player but he came good.

Fammy gets through a lot of unnoticed work to make space for other team members and I am sure that when he gets going he'll take some stopping.

like you, despite my criticisms of him hope he comes good for us, if he does it will have been quite a turnaround, because apart from a good work ethic, does not seem to possess the tools to be the striker to get us regular goals, which I'm sure he was bought for. people will say 5 million is not a lot these days but for that I would have expected a little more goal threat.   

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18 minutes ago, pillred said:

like you, despite my criticisms of him hope he comes good for us, if he does it will have been quite a turnaround, because apart from a good work ethic, does not seem to possess the tools to be the striker to get us regular goals, which I'm sure he was bought for. people will say 5 million is not a lot these days but for that I would have expected a little more goal threat.   

Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure LJ said he'd be happy if Diedhiou gets around 10 goals as he's designed to provide and make space for others.

Not sure if that was close to the direct quote, but I think he said something like that when he first joined.

Would mean a goal every 4 games or so, meaning he's just below par at the moment.

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17 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

But that is not what they paid, it's what it COULD rise to with add-ons, which may or may not be eventually received by us.

It's what is quoted on Soccerbase.

http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=41944

...as is £5.3 million for Diedhiou.

http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=79517

Do we know what we actually paid for him, or is that what it COULD rise to with add-ons.

:dunno:

 

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13 hours ago, Redtucks said:

It's what is quoted on Soccerbase.

http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=41944

...as is £5.3 million for Diedhiou.

http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=79517

Do we know what we actually paid for him, or is that what it COULD rise to with add-ons.

:dunno:

 

I have no idea of the accuracy of that website, however if they are correct, we made a profit................that would be somewhat of a surprise given most of football new we wanted rid and the player also wanted to go.

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I'm afraid he offered us absolutely nothing again tonight and he's playing because of his price tag. 

I wonder what might have happened today if we'd played someone else. 

I can only compare it to continue to bowl a spinner who's going for 20 an over without taking wickets. 

Again, not writing him off, but needs to take a break. We can't keep playing with 10 men. 

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