Trust...'DNA'...Everyone working in the same direction...

[Cowshed]

17 minutes ago, spudski said:

You have totally ignored what I said. Regardless of what the 'widely held' view is by fans, they purely judged the performances on match day without knowing the reasons as to why those players were chosen. You can blame the manager as much as you like, but without knowing what he knows behind the scenes, then you are just guessing. Do you not think he would like to play a settled team? A team all knowing what to do?

Do you realise how stupid it looks, when fans say 'look at how better the results and performances are compared to last season, now that we have a settled side'....when it's taken the best part of a season to get to this point? Do you think coach's can wave magic wands over night and make players understand what to do and get it drilled and dialled in over night? They say this with no knowledge of what's going on in training, injuries, mind sets,  disruption, personal issues etc,etc.

As for your remarks on Tomlin....he was dropped.

You choose to see it as ridicule...and it wasn't all fans as you so wrongly put it.

Yes I do find it ridiculous how some fans react. We totally outplayed Derby, and that performance seems to have set the bench mark to how we should be playing.

Do you really think you are going to see that week in, week out?

You watch....next time we lose or put in a performance that's not so good, fans will dissect and find fault and blame etc,etc.

Perhaps if there were more level headed reasoning by some on here, it wouldn't cause such bonkersness.

This league is mental...it is such fine margins. You have teams like Brentford who played us off the park, have the most shots on target ratio in the league, but without a win all season and struggling. Then the likes of 'boring' Ipswich and Cole Skuse getting player of the day flying.

You can judge performances on the day as much as you like...but without knowing everything that the coaching staff know, then you'll never get the FULL understanding as to why certain things and decisions and actions take place.

Anyway...I'm not going to get into a slanging match with you. You've obviously taken umbrage to what you have seen as unnecessary ridicule as you put it. Which you've also taken out of context, as if you had read my thoughts from last season, I was totally against Tomlin playing. But...I don't have the info, knowledge to hand, and the reasons why that LJ had back then.

You have ignored what people posted last season and this again.

You do not need to be this ITK being you keep banging on about, or need to have access to Mr Johnsons mind to form an opinion that the Manager was getting things wildly wrong last season. People were judging months of performances.

It was yourself who took umbrage at fans views on a forum and flounced off the forum calling fans "shit". That was ridiculous and reactionary.

 

[The Chaplain]

All this talk of a settled side being the difference this year seems to be overlooking the 3 changes we've made in each of  the last 3 games, surely the big difference is we've a better, deeper squad.  Agree too that MA and SL deserve great credit, particularly in light of recent events at other clubs, for their patience and foresight.  It has seemed compulsory here over the last year or so to ridicule MA's talk of 'DNA' but now it seems maybe this was key after all.  To me this seems like a team, a squad and a club at the moment that has an identity and knows what it's doing. 

[Trueredsupporter]

21 minutes ago, The Chaplain said:

All this talk of a settled side being the difference this year seems to be overlooking the 3 changes we've made in each of  the last 3 games, surely the big difference is we've a better, deeper squad.  Agree too that MA and SL deserve great credit, particularly in light of recent events at other clubs, for their patience and foresight.  It has seemed compulsory here over the last year or so to ridicule MA's talk of 'DNA' but now it seems maybe this was key after all.  To me this seems like a team, a squad and a club at the moment that has an identity and knows what it's doing. 

settled shape. City are not changing game to game half to half. that's the massive difference. the dna project talk is just look at me David Brent talk. of course players being bought should fit that settled shape. Joe Jordan  didnt go this is the 4-4-2 project and I want players with 4-4-2 dna identity. its not complex. they are not reinventing the bloody wheel.

[spudski]

48 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

You have ignored what people posted last season and this again.

You do not need to be this ITK being you keep banging on about, or need to have access to Mr Johnsons mind to form an opinion that the Manager was getting things wildly wrong last season. People were judging months of performances.

It was yourself who took umbrage at fans views on a forum and flounced off the forum calling fans "shit". That was ridiculous and reactionary.

 

I rest my case... without knowing what the manager knows week in, week out....then how can you judge a person completely, based on just what you see for 90 mins a game?

You can't....and it's the same for every manager in the League. Why does one thing work one week, but not the next? Every fan will tell you, from what they witness, but they don't have the full insight. I don't, you don't....the only people that know are the coaching staff and players.

As for the manager getting things wildly wrong last season, then I suggest there were probably approx. 16 teams in the division where fans thought the same of their manager, considering resources, money, players, experience etc, etc.

As for flouncing off after calling some fans shit in their observations...you are wildly off the mark, and it's something you've assumed. Like the manager...you have no idea what's going on in my life or why I made that decision, or what I chose to say or share...just like the manager.

I'll tell you what is ridiculous and reactionary....is fans calling LJ clueless, out of his depth, a midget troll, etc, etc when he's proved in games that he isn't.

Then a few good games later and some want to bounce around the ground with him....give me a break...makes you want to puke. It's either shit...or great...no in between or reasoning with some.

It seems some fans can ridicule and berate the coach and call him all the silly names under the sun...but say it about some fans and some people get offended.

Walk a thousand miles in another mans shoes before you can really grasp what's happening.

 

 

 

[The Chaplain]

1 hour ago, Trueredsupporte said:

settled shape. City are not changing game to game half to half. that's the massive difference. the dna project talk is just look at me David Brent talk. of course players being bought should fit that settled shape. Joe Jordan  didnt go this is the 4-4-2 project and I want players with 4-4-2 dna identity. its not complex. they are not reinventing the bloody wheel.

Broadly yes, though the shape changed too, several times, at Wolves.  And rocket science it may not be but it's still surprisingly rare, focusing on young, mobile ball handlers, often coming up either through the academy or the U23/development set up, with the odd sprinkling of experience to help.  Plenty here, as well as at Brum etc are always calling for big more spending on experienced, 'proven' championship performers, most managers, and clubs, cave in to that knowing they're always half a dozen games from the sack. 

[Trueredsupporter]

1 hour ago, The Chaplain said:

Broadly yes, though the shape changed too, several times, at Wolves.  And rocket science it may not be but it's still surprisingly rare, focusing on young, mobile ball handlers, often coming up either through the academy or the U23/development set up, with the odd sprinkling of experience to help.  Plenty here, as well as at Brum etc are always calling for big more spending on experienced, 'proven' championship performers, most managers, and clubs, cave in to that knowing they're always half a dozen games from the sack. 

Broadly no fella. Johnson was abandoning shape frequently last season not just changing it a little. it was we are not doing that this week or again next. City at Leeds was comedy oles report on it is classic people where fans who have gone all their lives had never seen such confusion. what Johnson attempted last season may work with super players with super coaches but not at this level it was strange in a bad way. What is going on now is entirely different. At the moment he is behaving like a changed organised man and the team is all the better for it.

[The Chaplain]

8 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Broadly no fella. Johnson was abandoning shape frequently last season not just changing it a little. it was we are not doing that this week or again next. City at Leeds was comedy oles report on it is classic people where fans who have gone all their lives had never seen such confusion. what Johnson attempted last season may work with super players with super coaches but not at this level it was strange in a bad way. What is going on now is entirely different. At the moment he is behaving like a changed organised man and the team is all the better for it.

I was agreeing with you.  Yes the shape has been more consistent this year, just pointing out it was changed radically, mid-game, at Molienuex, and it worked, so he got praised for it.  Ultimately, as ever, it's all about results. remain consistent and win and you're a hero, stick to your guns when you're losing and your a stubborn so and so.  The test for Lee this year, as ever, will be when a few results go against him, I hope he keeps going just as he is ... maybe others showing faith in him will give him the confidence to do just that.  

[JamesBCFC]

18 hours ago, Ian M said:

I seem to remember another manager presided over a club record (at the time) losing run before going on to win promotion the next season. Think he went by the name of Johnson too 

I have had 3 season tickets

Season ticket 1: 2005/6

2006/7- Promotion

Season ticket 2: 2013/14

2014/15- Promotion

Season ticket 3: 2016/17

2017/18.... 

[downendcity]

4 hours ago, The Chaplain said:

All this talk of a settled side being the difference this year seems to be overlooking the 3 changes we've made in each of  the last 3 games, surely the big difference is we've a better, deeper squad.  Agree too that MA and SL deserve great credit, particularly in light of recent events at other clubs, for their patience and foresight.  It has seemed compulsory here over the last year or so to ridicule MA's talk of 'DNA' but now it seems maybe this was key after all.  To me this seems like a team, a squad and a club at the moment that has an identity and knows what it's doing. 

i don't think it is much having a settled side, more that the players have all bought in to the way in which LJ is trying to get the team to play, and are applying that as much as they can, game by game. It won't be perfect, as there are two teams out on the pitch and sometimes the opposition will outplay us, impose their game plan on us, or we will just have too many players with an off day.

Looking back to last season, perhaps the problem was that LJ was trying to get the team too far too quickly, and not all the squad was buying into his philosophy. It also seems that one player in particular, who LJ was trying to make a central part of his plans either couldn't , or wouldn't fit the playing style. The knock on from that was sowing discontent behind the scenes, which would not have helped getting the whole squad onside with LJ's thinking.

Perhaps the catalyst to what we are starting to see now, was SL standing firmly in support of his head coach, at a time when most fans  ( and probably the players) thought he had to go. Once players saw that LJ was staying, and especially when he did leave LT out, they realised that LJ's way was going to be the way forward and once they accepted that we could see the change in terms of performance and results.

 

 

[Trueredsupporter]

13 minutes ago, The Chaplain said:

I was agreeing with you.  Yes the shape has been more consistent this year, just pointing out it was changed radically, mid-game, at Molienuex, and it worked, so he got praised for it.  Ultimately, as ever, it's all about results. remain consistent and win and you're a hero, stick to your guns when you're losing and your a stubborn so and so.  The test for Lee this year, as ever, will be when a few results go against him, I hope he keeps going just as he is ... maybe others showing faith in him will give him the confidence to do just that.  

Sorry reliving the wtf is he this doing this week trauma of last season blighted my post. never seen as much change and have never seen any team do anything but struggle with  masses of change. It was the sign of panic. "The test for Lee this year, as ever, will be when a few results go against him, I hope he keeps going just as he is ... maybe others showing faith in him will give him the confidence to do just that". 100%

[REDOXO]

I have read the last few posts finding my self agreeing with a lot of stuff partially.

Certainly we have a large squad and depth right now looks apparent. Whether some of those we consider to currently be in the squad can come in consistently and perform over an extended period remains to be seen. Đurić certainly has a lot to prove there as do quite a few others that until now have been bit parts. The Engval experience is another pointer of the dangers of buying abroad, even LJ questioning if he is fit for purpose. 

HOWEVER. As for DNA we now have some. High press to ultra fit forwards in Reid and Fammy defending from the front giving those clubs who think they have the right to play out of defence a torrid time. That is what we do. Woodrow did well here as well and our midfield choices are abundant. The back line is any 4 from 7 good options or a variation there of. 

For those of us that saw the Brentford game we were utter crap, that is for sure and Millwall simply were stronger than us. However what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and we have learned from the experiences and got away with a couple of points. I do wish people would stop identifying Fammy as some kind of issue he is doing what he is told, scored goals and partners the divisions leading striker. 

So I see DNA DEVELOPING. Fingers crossed for Kelly Elliason Magnússon maybe Vyner and Taylor who will surely get playing time tonight. I have hope that our depth will put on quite a show!

[JamesBCFC]

4 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I have read the last few posts finding my self agreeing with a lot of stuff partially.

Certainly we have a large squad

Hardly.

We only have a squad that looks large because of how threadbare the squad was wen LJ came in.

Our squad is roughly average sized for the Championship.

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, The Chaplain said:

I was agreeing with you.  Yes the shape has been more consistent this year, just pointing out it was changed radically, mid-game, at Molienuex, and it worked, so he got praised for it.  Ultimately, as ever, it's all about results. remain consistent and win and you're a hero, stick to your guns when you're losing and your a stubborn so and so.  The test for Lee this year, as ever, will be when a few results go against him, I hope he keeps going just as he is ... maybe others showing faith in him will give him the confidence to do just that.  

Yes. I might be completely wrong but I get the impression that they'd worked on a couple of flexible tactics ahead of Wolves whereas last season it all appeared to be spur of the moment. 

LJ had talked about the fact that he tried to match up too much last season rather than focus on us, and us imposing on the opposition. Last season he matched up v Fleetwood, a team from a lower division. That shouldn't have been necessary!

Back to Wolves, it was...I'm going 442 as per normal but I know Wolves are 343 and good so I'll have a different approach all coached-in ahead if the game should we need to change. It worked. It might not every time, but from what I read post-match it appears that the players knew what they were doing (unlike last season).

Digressing for a mo', I'm often critical of our fickle fans, but I understand that at h-t on Saturday it was a pretty happy crowd despite the score line. The fans recognised we had played well. Perhaps not walking off to boos may have helped too!!!

[Kid in the Riot]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

LJ had talked about the fact that he tried to match up too much last season rather than focus on us, and us imposing on the opposition. Last season he matched up v Fleetwood, a team from a lower division. That shouldn't have been necessary!

I believe that was pointed out by many fans (including myself!) as well last season. McInnes suffered from the same; worrying about the opposition and trying to be too clever in counteracting them instead of concentrating on the strengths of your own players.

[JamesBCFC]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes. I might be completely wrong but I get the impression that they'd worked on a couple of flexible tactics ahead of Wolves whereas last season it all appeared to be spur of the moment. 

LJ had talked about the fact that he tried to match up too much last season rather than focus on us, and us imposing on the opposition. Last season he matched up v Fleetwood, a team from a lower division. That shouldn't have been necessary!

Back to Wolves, it was...I'm going 442 as per normal but I know Wolves are 343 and good so I'll have a different approach all coached-in ahead if the game should we need to change. It worked. It might not every time, but from what I read post-match it appears that the players knew what they were doing (unlike last season).

Digressing for a mo', I'm often critical of our fickle fans, but I understand that at h-t on Saturday it was a pretty happy crowd despite the score line. The fans recognised we had played well. Perhaps not walking off to boos may have helped too!!!

Stoke play a similar formation to Wolves I believe, so think they will have gone over a similar type of thing again prior to tonight's win game.

[Mr Popodopolous]

@Davefevs @Kid in the Riot

Modern football is like that though. Most sides need to match up a bit, think about the opposition a fair bit. Agree on Fleetwood though but in general, can also see how that was a hazardous tie- they were going well, we were going badly, lots of discontent in the fanbase...agree it wasn't necessary however on balance

I know Italian football is rather different but take a read of this and matching up- and credit to LJ for how he changed it at Wolves- but take a read.

Like I say matching up, switching, countering...it's like chess.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/27/roma-2-1-inter-tactics-de-rossi-milito-toni/

That game is particularly notable, but the point remains.

[Kid in the Riot]

35 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@Davefevs @Kid in the Riot

Modern football is like that though. Most sides need to match up a bit, think about the opposition a fair bit. Agree on Fleetwood though but in general, can also see how that was a hazardous tie- they were going well, we were going badly, lots of discontent in the fanbase...agree it wasn't necessary however on balance

I know Italian football is rather different but take a read of this and matching up- and credit to LJ for how he changed it at Wolves- but take a read.

Like I say matching up, switching, countering...it's like chess.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/27/roma-2-1-inter-tactics-de-rossi-milito-toni/

That game is particularly notable, but the point remains.

There is a balance though isn't there. If you are worrying about everything the opposition is trying to do and not concentrating enough on what your own players can do, then that can come across to the players as being rather negative. The proof is in the pudding and the constant tinkering with personnel and formation/tactics last season led to a pretty disastrous set of results; one of, if not the, worst run in the club's history. A lot of mistakes were made. Now there appears to be more of an emphasis on keeping things simple, not using the bingo machine to select the team and empowering our players to play to their strengths and for the time being it seems to be working. That said, we were probably as bad against Brentford as we were good against Derby so it still isn't entirely clear which way the season will go! Here's hoping lessons have finally been learnt - they need to have been.

[Davefevs]

41 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@Davefevs @Kid in the Riot

Modern football is like that though. Most sides need to match up a bit, think about the opposition a fair bit. Agree on Fleetwood though but in general, can also see how that was a hazardous tie- they were going well, we were going badly, lots of discontent in the fanbase...agree it wasn't necessary however on balance

I know Italian football is rather different but take a read of this and matching up- and credit to LJ for how he changed it at Wolves- but take a read.

Like I say matching up, switching, countering...it's like chess.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/27/roma-2-1-inter-tactics-de-rossi-milito-toni/

That game is particularly notable, but the point remains.

But matching up week in week out means you have no "identity" (LJ / MA words) of your own and you are switching to tactics that your opposition are well drilled in and you're not....leading to inconsistency, no ability to benchmark performances other than by results. You might give individuals certain instructions, e.g. Eros, be less expansive today as you're up against a winger who's their key player, but big changes week in week out will eventually lead to poor results. 

At some point, you gave to have courage in your convictions and your tactics and impose them on your opponents and make them change. 

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

There is a balance though isn't there. If you are worrying about everything the opposition is trying to do and not concentrating enough on what your own players can do, then that can come across to the players as being rather negative. The proof is in the pudding and the constant tinkering with personnel and formation/tactics last season led to a pretty disastrous set of results; one of, if not the, worst run in the club's history. A lot of mistakes were made. Now there appears to be more of an emphasis on keeping things simple, not using the bingo machine to select the team and empowering our players to play to their strengths and for the time being it seems to be working. That said, we were probably as bad against Brentford as we were good against Derby so it still isn't entirely clear which way the season will go! Here's hoping lessons have finally been learnt - they need to have been.

Beat me to it. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

@Davefevs @Kid in the Riot

Agreed, it can't be all about the opposition but the modern game is increasingly varied and complex tactically. Vs Derby we were superb, especially 2nd half but even first half we certainly didn't deserve to be behind. Agree about lessons being learnt for sure. Derby are quite a counter-attacking side or should I say Rowett is, was at Birmingham particularly a fairly counter attacking manager- what works v Derby maybe needs to be switched vs say Fulham for example. Averaged under 50% possession this year, Derby.

Can certainly agree Dave, specific instructions to individual players seems quite important, and ideally we should have a Plan A and stick to it wherever possible.

Need to adopt where necessary, perhaps more in-game in many cases than pre-game.

[Maesknoll Red]

On 18/09/2017 at 12:49, spudski said:

 

I'm really not sure how people expect managers to turn things around in such a short space of time. 

It's obviously a speciality, as Warnock, Allardyce and others seem to specialise in fire fighting and saving teams from relegation.  Their styles, may or may not be sustainable in the long run, but there certainly seems to be a place for the short term specialist in preserving clubs from relegation.

[INCRED]

I'm surprised some don't think we will get anything at Norwich! Yes it's been a bit of a graveyard in the past but so was Reading and Wolves. Norwich's playing style in my opinion suits how we play and are quite similar to our last 3 opponents. Bolton will be a tougher nut to crack as they will probably try to deny us any space and park the bus

[The Chaplain]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

But matching up week in week out means you have no "identity" (LJ / MA words) of your own and you are switching to tactics that your opposition are well drilled in and you're not....leading to inconsistency, no ability to benchmark performances other than by results. You might give individuals certain instructions, e.g. Eros, be less expansive today as you're up against a winger who's their key player, but big changes week in week out will eventually lead to poor results. 

At some point, you gave to have courage in your convictions and your tactics and impose them on your opponents and make them change. 

Didn't LJ say about  Millwall and Brentford that he was most disappointed in the fact that these 2 teams both 'out-identitied' us, not a real word obviously and he may have phrased it differently but that was his gist.  Another plus sign for the advancing 'DNA'