CyderInACan Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 30 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: It's trendy to say how terrible England are, but we do genuinely have some good players coming through and I believe within 5 years we'll have a much much better side than we do now. How long have we been continually kidding ourselves for though by trotting this nonsense out? The FA don’t care about England. All they care about is the Prem. Cant see much changing in the short to medium term. Ace qualifying only get to QF stage and bow out to one of the usual suspects at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, CyderInACan said: How long have we been continually kidding ourselves for though by trotting this nonsense out? The FA don’t care about England. All they care about is the Prem. Cant see much changing in the short to medium term. Ace qualifying only get to QF stage and bow out to one of the usual suspects at best. 11 minutes ago, Monkeh said: I hope so, but we had this with the "golden generation" of lampard, Gerrard Rooney owen Ferdinand the nevs cole x 2 , Well, I feel we should've won a tournament with the 'Golden Generation'. I believe had Rooney not got injured we might have won Euro 2004. We had a world class squad then. 2006, well World Cup's are always more difficult - felt we should've got semi finals at least then. So many variables in tournament football and the debate isn't about England's failings in cup competition; that's a different question. In terms of quality though - we have had a lean decade really. I feel the players coming through are of a higher level now and we may begin to be able to compete. The media are partly to blame really, they whip fans up to believe England are potential contenders with the 2010, 2012 and 2016 squads. We simply didn't have the necessary quality in those sides. The difference now is that England are winning youth tournaments. For us to win the u20 World Cup is no mean feat. What's good to see is that the media haven't caught wind of this as much as I expected. It's far better if these young players are doing what Sacho, Kent, Oxford, Willock etc are doing and playing abroad. They'll learn new things, new life skills and remain under the radar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 15 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: In 5 years we'll have peak Harry Kane and Dele Alli to add to Keane, Butland, Stones, Ward-Prowse and Rashford who I expect to be first team regulars. Add in the likes of Trent Alexander-Arnold, Tom Davies, Solanke, Gray, Viera, Jadon Sacho and it looks rather more positive than it does now. We've had a fairly lean decade or so in terms of talent - but I believe we are on the ascendancy now. This seems to have gone under the radar a bit which makes a nice change. In theory, yes. But if you think about the players who have been tipped as future England greats in the past, you realise often promise does not quite materialise as you would hope. In 2011, people thought we were five years away from an outstanding England team in Joe Hart, Kyle Walker, Keiron Gibbs, Phil Jones, Chris Smalling, Jack Rodwell, Jordan Henderson, Jack Wilshere, Alex Oxlade Chamberlain, Danny Welbeck and Theo Walcott. Most of those players have not quite become quite as good as people hoped... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf Hucker Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 12 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: In 5 years we'll have peak Harry Kane and Dele Alli to add to Keane, Butland, Stones, Ward-Prowse and Rashford who I expect to be first team regulars. Add in the likes of Trent Alexander-Arnold, Tom Davies, Solanke, Gray, Viera, Jadon Sacho and it looks rather more positive than it does now. We've had a fairly lean decade or so in terms of talent - but I believe we are on the ascendancy now. This seems to have gone under the radar a bit which makes a nice change. I was with you until this point! IMO, Stones is the most overrated young player in this country. I've no doubt he'll play many times for England but we'll continue to win nothing with players such as him in the team because, like Jordan Henderson, he just ain't good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said: In theory, yes. But if you think about the players who have been tipped as future England greats in the past, you realise often promise does not quite materialise as you would hope. In 2011, people thought we were five years away from an outstanding England team in Joe Hart, Kyle Walker, Keiron Gibbs, Phil Jones, Chris Smalling, Jack Rodwell, Jordan Henderson, Jack Wilshere, Alex Oxlade Chamberlain, Danny Welbeck and Theo Walcott. Most of those players have not quite become quite as good as people hoped... Depends how you define 'England greats' - Hart has been first choice keeper for a number of years, Walker has developed into one of the best right backs in the world, Smalling (if anything) exceeded expectations at United, still plenty of time for Jones really - the major disappointments in that list are Wilshere and Walcott. I think Walcott hasn't been helped with the amount of injuries. Those young players - in my opinion - are nowhere near as gifted and exciting as the current crop. I don't remember huge optimism in 2011 personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, Rudolf Hucker said: I was with you until this point! IMO, Stones is the most overrated young player in this country. I've no doubt he'll play many times for England but we'll continue to win nothing with players such as him in the team because, like Jordan Henderson, he just ain't good enough. I think he will develop. He clearly has something, Guardiola knows his stuff. Same with Sterling. I predict Stones will surprise people over the next few years.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 hour ago, RedDave said: Give him time to adapt to Prem. Completely disagree we are better without him. Put him in this team and we would be doing even better. I think the emphasis was on team. The easy, lazy option last year was to give it to Tammy ,now others know that they need to contribute more goals to the side . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 I disagree with the whole system that let's you play for one nation at U21 level before "deciding" that you are another nationality altogether. You've made your bed so lie in it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roe Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 31 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: In 5 years we'll have peak Harry Kane and Dele Alli to add to Keane, Butland, Stones, Ward-Prowse and Rashford who I expect to be first team regulars. Add in the likes of Trent Alexander-Arnold, Tom Davies, Solanke, Gray, Viera, Jadon Sacho and it looks rather more positive than it does now. We've had a fairly lean decade or so in terms of talent - but I believe we are on the ascendancy now. This seems to have gone under the radar a bit which makes a nice change. Put Bobby Reid in the mix and there's no way Abraham even gets offered a complimentary match ticket from one of the players.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 With his culture , his family's wishes are likely to be a major factor Normally I'd be a bit cheesed but the lad is a gem in his makeup and his footballing ability so good luck to him whatever he chooses (However I hope it's England though !) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: Well, I feel we should've won a tournament with the 'Golden Generation'. I believe had Rooney not got injured we might have won Euro 2004. We had a world class squad then. 2006, well World Cup's are always more difficult - felt we should've got semi finals at least then. So many variables in tournament football and the debate isn't about England's failings in cup competition; that's a different question. In terms of quality though - we have had a lean decade really. I feel the players coming through are of a higher level now and we may begin to be able to compete. The media are partly to blame really, they whip fans up to believe England are potential contenders with the 2010, 2012 and 2016 squads. We simply didn't have the necessary quality in those sides. The difference now is that England are winning youth tournaments. For us to win the u20 World Cup is no mean feat. What's good to see is that the media haven't caught wind of this as much as I expected. It's far better if these young players are doing what Sacho, Kent, Oxford, Willock etc are doing and playing abroad. They'll learn new things, new life skills and remain under the radar. We've never had a world class squad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havanatopia Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said: I disagree with the whole system that let's you play for one nation at U21 level before "deciding" that you are another nationality altogether. You've made your bed so lie in it! Agree Robbo; this whole thing really irritates me. Just look at Qatar; they have perhaps been instrumental in lobbying FIFA or rather trousering the board in order for them to change the rules. Now you see 'Qataris' playing for their national team who have not only been born elsewhere, grown up elsewhere and even been educated elsewhere but do not even speak Qatari nor live in Qatar. What a total farce. When did it all change? Under Blatter no doubt but perhaps commenced by that other corrupt old fart Havelange. Where was Tammy born? That is who he should play for and absolutely nobody else. And if he cannot get in the team it is insane that he can pick another country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, Monkeh said: We've never had a world class squad That detailed and well thought out response has definitely changed my opinion I spent a good 5 minutes writing you a few paragraphs Monkeh! With the exception of James - this is very much world class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olé Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, havanatopia said: Where was Tammy born? That is who he should play for and absolutely nobody else Wouldn't have had this goal: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 12 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: That detailed and well thought out response has definitely changed my opinion I spent a good 5 minutes writing you a few paragraphs Monkeh! With the exception of James - this is very much world class no its not a Truly world class squad were the all conquering spanish team, sexy football dutch team of the late 70's Brazil with Pele, or Germany recently, They are world class teams, The above is a good team but not world class, the term world class is thrown round to freely these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, Monkeh said: no its not a Truly world class squad were the all conquering spanish team, sexy football dutch team of the late 70's Brazil with Pele, or Germany recently, They are world class teams, The above is a good team but not world class, the term world class is thrown round to freely these days world-class adjective (of a person, thing, or activity) of or among the best in the world. "a world-class player" By that definition (of or among the best in the world) in 2004, England were a World Class team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: world-class adjective (of a person, thing, or activity) of or among the best in the world. "a world-class player" By that definition (of or among the best in the world) in 2004, England were a World Class team. did they win the tournament?, no did they finish runners up? no so by your definition they weren't the best in the world, they weren't even the best in Europe, they finished 2nd in the group behind france (who did have a truely world class player in Zidane and Henry) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 hour ago, CyderInACan said: How long have we been continually kidding ourselves for though by trotting this nonsense out? The FA don’t care about England. All they care about is the Prem. Cant see much changing in the short to medium term. Ace qualifying only get to QF stage and bow out to one of the usual suspects at best. In fairness I think the FA does care about England - whether they have the wherewithal to do anything about it is another matter. It's the premier league that only cares about the premier league, and doesn't give a toss about England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 31 minutes ago, Monkeh said: did they win the tournament?, no did they finish runners up? no so by your definition they weren't the best in the world, they weren't even the best in Europe, they finished 2nd in the group behind france (who did have a truely world class player in Zidane and Henry) So Greece had a world class squad did they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: So Greece had a world class squad did they? no but i was using your definition to make a point, England had a very good squad (1998 was better) but they weren't world class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 9 minutes ago, Monkeh said: no but i was using your definition to make a point, England had a very good squad (1998 was better) but they weren't world class Unfortunately tournament performance is the only yardstick we have to measure ‘ability’. I believe, theoretically, that if the England 2004 squad played in a world league of 20 national teams from the time they’d be towards the top and thus be ‘World Class’ as per the definition. Lots of that squad were ‘among the best in the world’ as per that definition. All subjective now though because there’s no way of knowing. Either way, we’ve horribly digressed from the original topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: Unfortunately tournament performance is the only yardstick we have to measure ‘ability’. I believe, theoretically, that if the England 2004 squad played in a world league of 20 national teams from the time they’d be towards the top and thus be ‘World Class’ as per the definition. Lots of that squad were ‘among the best in the world’ as per that definition. All subjective now though because there’s no way of knowing. Either way, we’ve horribly digressed from the original topic! they had plenty of ability but for international football tournaments is the yard stick they need to be measured at, as its they only thing the team can win, Take Argentina for example, they have one truely world class player but they don't have a world class team, and much like England flatter to deceive, Many players want to win things, and Tammys best chance of winning anything at international level will be with the super eagies he will also be one of their first choices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumRed Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 He just really hates our ******* band, and who can blame him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexukhc Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Talking to a Swansea fan at work about him earlier, says he's not good enough for the prem, gods sake only his second full season and how many games gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, alexukhc said: Talking to a Swansea fan at work about him earlier, says he's not good enough for the prem, gods sake only his second full season and how many games gone? the game I watched, he didn't play like the tammy we had, he also looked isolated and when he did show glimpses he had no support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonM88 Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 hour ago, alexukhc said: Talking to a Swansea fan at work about him earlier, says he's not good enough for the prem, gods sake only his second full season and how many games gone? Well Swansea fans obviously rate him in the majority. He’s was voted their potm for August. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmersonsRed Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 4 hours ago, downendcity said: So will disappear to the African Cup of Nations on a regular basis. Might make him less attractive proposition to Prem clubs. Haven't read any posts past this but the ACON is being moved from January to June from 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmersonsRed Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 4 hours ago, terpin said: Becoming a summer tournament after 2019. Ah... Had already been corrected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmersonsRed Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 In terms of Tammy, I'm not sure he's got what it takes to play for England. Happy to be proven wrong, but his game is very one dimensional... I.E find space in box and finish - he's still yet to score a professional goal from outside the box, needs to adapt his game a little. Add something to it. As the prem is proving, against top CBs, it's difficult Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glynriley Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, EmersonsRed said: In terms of Tammy, I'm not sure he's got what it takes to play for England. Happy to be proven wrong, but his game is very one dimensional... I.E find space in box and finish - he's still yet to score a professional goal from outside the box, needs to adapt his game a little. Add something to it. As the prem is proving, against top CBs, it's difficult Never did Gary Lineker any harm!! I'm sure Tammy will adapt, he's only been playing at that level for 5 minutes and still only 19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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