LJ's style of play...

[hoxton casual]

I am not convinced about the pleading of a special case for how coaches gain experience. Surgeons were traditionally taught in a see one, do one, teach one basis.

Also the other major gap over coaching theory is leadership and instlling confidence in a team, especially in a near dest spiral like last season.

Great post. Has got me thinking. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

5 hours ago, RichardEdd said:

Remembered some interesting stuff from Brendan Rodgers when he was 1st at Liverpool that explained the high press really well/clearly and managed to find some of it:

The bold bit at the end there is something we have been much better at this season and consequently we seem to be seeing games out better - we have taken opportunities to recover and thus don't burn through our stamina in the first 60 mins or so.

Interesting piece that - thanks

The press is a great tactic operated well 

We seem to be employing it pretty efficiently and effectively this season

I know that there were times that the players didn't believe they could maintain the press for 90 mins last season but we seem to have it off quite well atm

Wolves was an interesting one for me as the fear is better sides with better technical players will pick you off and play through your press if they're good enough and there are any flaws in the press

I feared that Wolves may be such a danger time but none the goals we conceded did not appear to be as a result of Wolves playing through us or in particular pass a press

On the face of it we seemed to have passed a test that night in that respect 

If there's anyone who went to Wolves can comment on whether we pressed that night and if we did whether Wolves managed to pass through it very often I'd be really interested

 

[Red Army 87]

10 hours ago, Shtanley said:

My favourite element of pressing is "setting traps" fascinating tactics by allowing a team to think they've got somewhere and suddenly they're surrounded. 

A clear example of that against stoke the other night was in the first half. Defender had the ball and our front 2 weren't near him, then as he took a touch towards the touch line marlon pack came sprinting out of midfield and Eliasson closed off the route out. From comfortable possession to under pressure in a second and we won the ball back. It's not just pressing for pressing sake, it's tactical and timed.

[spudski]

6 hours ago, RichardEdd said:

Remembered some interesting stuff from Brendan Rodgers when he was 1st at Liverpool that explained the high press really well/clearly and managed to find some of it:

The bold bit at the end there is something we have been much better at this season and consequently we seem to be seeing games out better - we have taken opportunities to recover and thus don't burn through our stamina in the first 60 mins or so.

Thanks for posting that mate...had read it before, but couldn't find it again. It's very simply put, for anyone to understand.

Perhaps when people start moaning at the ground, when we play it sideways after a high tempo intensive pressing session, they'll understand that we may be recovering, not just looking for an opening.

[Cowshed]

13 hours ago, Countryfile said:

Interesting stuff.

I heard LJ say a few weeks ago that he had come up with some pressing patterns that he was trying to implement.

Didnt really understand what he was talking about, but presumably there are different ways of playing a pressing game, who to press and when, and by which player, and in which area, depending on the opposition.

Football is a really simple game, 1 ball, at least two  players and one or more goal, jumpers optional. I can't be the only one who has scored going in off a jumper.

 

 

This may interest you.

[Bar BS3]

15 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Both probably..

Was then perhaps- most certainly not now, above League One let's say!

Nail on head!

I think this is why we've always (in my lifetime) struggled to progress beyond where we are now. 

Weve not had such a modern & detailed approach before. GJ got us close, but that was on the crest of a wave.

This looks & feels different. Hopefully..! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Interesting piece that - thanks

The press is a great tactic operated well 

We seem to be employing it pretty efficiently and effectively this season

I know that there were times that the players didn't believe they could maintain the press for 90 mins last season but we seem to have it off quite well atm

Wolves was an interesting one for me as the fear is better sides with better technical players will pick you off and play through your press if they're good enough and there are any flaws in the press

I feared that Wolves may be such a danger time but none the goals we conceded did not appear to be as a result of Wolves playing through us or in particular pass a press

On the face of it we seemed to have passed a test that night in that respect 

If there's anyone who went to Wolves can comment on whether we pressed that night and if we did whether Wolves managed to pass through it very often I'd be really interested

 

I've read a few pieces, and the gist of it is that as you say the press is a great tactic when applied correctly.

Based on what I've read, and more importantly what I see- talking generally now, not necessarily about City- a press is great when:

• The whole team does it in unison.
• It is done in some key areas- e.g. for a rapid turnover for a quick counter.

Where it falls down and badly is when half the team press and half sit, or the defence presses but the midfield sits off. Definitely drops off then, and vs good sides can  make a side very easy to pick off. Also with older players, not necessarily the way forward.

Would likewise be highly interested to the Wolves game.

[spudski]

36 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

 

This may interest you.

Their videos are very good. Easily understood for any fan. In Layman's terms.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Interesting piece that - thanks

The press is a great tactic operated well 

We seem to be employing it pretty efficiently and effectively this season

I know that there were times that the players didn't believe they could maintain the press for 90 mins last season but we seem to have it off quite well atm

Wolves was an interesting one for me as the fear is better sides with better technical players will pick you off and play through your press if they're good enough and there are any flaws in the press

I feared that Wolves may be such a danger time but none the goals we conceded did not appear to be as a result of Wolves playing through us or in particular pass a press

On the face of it we seemed to have passed a test that night in that respect 

If there's anyone who went to Wolves can comment on whether we pressed that night and if we did whether Wolves managed to pass through it very often I'd be really interested

 

I think we’ve been able to keep the press because we’ve been able to rotate our midfield. A bit of early season conservatism playing a lopsided 4 with Brownhill wide to give extra energy, but evolving to perming 2 from Pack, Smith and Brownhill in the centre to mixing Pato, O’Dowda and Leko of late in the wide positions. Eliasson getting cup minutes to give breathers. 

We might all have our favoured starters, but I sense (from early season match threads) that we are becoming less negative to changes game to game. 

52 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I've read a few pieces, and the gist of it is that as you say the press is a great tactic when applied correctly.

Based on what I've read, and more importantly what I see- talking generally now, not necessarily about City- a press is great when:

• The whole team does it in unison.
• It is done in some key areas- e.g. for a rapid turnover for a quick counter.

Where it falls down and badly is when half the team press and half sit, or the defence presses but the midfield sits off. Definitely drops off then, and vs good sides can  make a side very easy to pick off. Also with older players, not necessarily the way forward.

Would likewise be highly interested to the Wolves game.

Not pressing as a team - see Fulham at home last season. A classic example of 4 defenders marking 2 Fulham forwards and allowing overloads against us in the middle, further exploited by them then getting their fullback into advanced positions creating overloads there. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think we’ve been able to keep the press because we’ve been able to rotate our midfield. A bit of early season conservatism playing a lopsided 4 with Brownhill wide to give extra energy, but evolving to perming 2 from Pack, Smith and Brownhill in the centre to mixing Pato, O’Dowda and Leko of late in the wide positions. Eliasson getting cup minutes to give breathers. 

We might all have our favoured starters, but I sense (from early season match threads) that we are becoming less negative to changes game to game. 

Don't know whether I mentioned Dave but one of coaching staff (Q&A after) explained to me that the pitch was narrowed to help the press 

No great shock but explained they thought it was more of a mind set of players that at times they didn't believe they could keep the press going for whole game and by narrowing the pitch they've convinced / psyched the players to believe they can (The pitch has only come in by a couple of yards  - helps but more how it helps the psyche ) 

Clever

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Don't know whether I mentioned Dave but one of coaching staff (Q&A after) explained to me that the pitch was narrowed to help the press 

No great shock but explained they thought it was more of a mind set of players that at times they didn't believe they could keep the press going for whole game and by narrowing the pitch they've convinced / psyched the players to believe they can (The pitch has only come in by a couple of yards  - helps but more how it helps the psyche ) 

Clever

Yes, LJ mentioned it pre-season too. 

As a bunch of individuals there are far better elevens than ours, I see the high press for City as our way of competing. It’s a much easier on the eye tactic than route-one and effective if done well. 

Closing Down the opposition at pace and springing into attack gets the crowd off their seats and helps the overall atmosphere. Interestingly the Millwall game was the exception because they played long and didn’t spend any time on the ball the engage our press. 

[BCFC101]

2 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Interesting piece that - thanks

The press is a great tactic operated well 

We seem to be employing it pretty efficiently and effectively this season

I know that there were times that the players didn't believe they could maintain the press for 90 mins last season but we seem to have it off quite well atm

Wolves was an interesting one for me as the fear is better sides with better technical players will pick you off and play through your press if they're good enough and there are any flaws in the press

I feared that Wolves may be such a danger time but none the goals we conceded did not appear to be as a result of Wolves playing through us or in particular pass a press

On the face of it we seemed to have passed a test that night in that respect 

If there's anyone who went to Wolves can comment on whether we pressed that night and if we did whether Wolves managed to pass through it very often I'd be really interested

 

From what I remember, we didn't press as hard as we had done against, say, Derby, and rightly so. Like you just did, LJ and the team correctly identified that pressing players like Cavaleiro would be far too dangerous, as they will just pick us off. Instead, when defending, we opted for a more narrow, compact tactic when defending, which worked well. Unsurprisingly, Wolves were well aware of our pressing style of play, and were quick to notice when we did it at the wrong time, which allowed them to get in behind, but we did well at avoiding doing this too often. I think the idea was then to spread out wide when we got the ball back, and try to take advantage of the fact that they had a bigger gap between midfield and defence. The problem was that Wolves themselves were doing very well at pressing us when we had the ball, and we often struggled to get it forward for the first half an hour, so LJ changed it up by bringing Reid into the middle, with Leko and Diediouh up top, with Brownhill going out wider, into Leko's position. This, for me, was the moment that LJ ensured we didn't lose the game for a couple of reasons. For one, everyone appeared to know what the role of each position is, so when LJ switched players around, from a defensive point of view, we were still doing the exact same things, making it difficult for Wolves to break us down. Secondly, with Reid more in the middle, we suddenly had someone in there to pick the ball up when we got it back, and run at them. This change meant that Wolves had to drop back 5-10 yards more, which gave us more time and space to do something with the ball ourselves. This remained the case for pretty much all of the other 60 minutes.

Went a bit off topic maybe there, but in answer to your questions, we didn't seem to press as hard, and it was the right thing to do as it minimised the amount of times we were picked off.

[Davefevs]

@BCFC101 

Secondly, with Reid more in the middle, we suddenly had someone in there to pick the ball up when we got it back, and run at them. This change meant that Wolves had to drop back 5-10 yards more, which gave us more time and space to do something with the ball ourselves. This remained the case for pretty much all of the other 60 minutes

i wasn’t there but makes perfect sense. That little 5-10 yards space can make a big difference. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, BCFC101 said:

From what I remember, we didn't press as hard as we had done against, say, Derby, and rightly so. Like you just did, LJ and the team correctly identified that pressing players like Cavaleiro would be far too dangerous, as they will just pick us off. Instead, when defending, we opted for a more narrow, compact tactic when defending, which worked well. .......

..........Went a bit off topic maybe there, but in answer to your questions, we didn't seem to press as hard, and it was the right thing to do as it minimised the amount of times we were picked off.

Thankyou

Fascinating post 

Really interesting , well explained and appreciated

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, BCFC101 said:

From what I remember, we didn't press as hard as we had done against, say, Derby, and rightly so. Like you just did, LJ and the team correctly identified that pressing players like Cavaleiro would be far too dangerous, as they will just pick us off. Instead, when defending, we opted for a more narrow, compact tactic when defending, which worked well. Unsurprisingly, Wolves were well aware of our pressing style of play, and were quick to notice when we did it at the wrong time, which allowed them to get in behind, but we did well at avoiding doing this too often. I think the idea was then to spread out wide when we got the ball back, and try to take advantage of the fact that they had a bigger gap between midfield and defence. The problem was that Wolves themselves were doing very well at pressing us when we had the ball, and we often struggled to get it forward for the first half an hour, so LJ changed it up by bringing Reid into the middle, with Leko and Diediouh up top, with Brownhill going out wider, into Leko's position. This, for me, was the moment that LJ ensured we didn't lose the game for a couple of reasons. For one, everyone appeared to know what the role of each position is, so when LJ switched players around, from a defensive point of view, we were still doing the exact same things, making it difficult for Wolves to break us down. Secondly, with Reid more in the middle, we suddenly had someone in there to pick the ball up when we got it back, and run at them. This change meant that Wolves had to drop back 5-10 yards more, which gave us more time and space to do something with the ball ourselves. This remained the case for pretty much all of the other 60 minutes.

Went a bit off topic maybe there, but in answer to your questions, we didn't seem to press as hard, and it was the right thing to do as it minimised the amount of times we were picked off.

Would agree with that. Was interesting to see in the final 10 or so minutes Korey Smith being pretty much the furthest man forward tasked with closing down the ball, whereas Reid was sat in front of the back 4. It was like they had reversed roles but was obviously a deliberate tactic.

[wendyredredrobin]

Wow, I hope the oppositions management are not reading this thread.  For me, it's all about being just 1% better than the opposition, like the horse that won the national by a nose.

1% fitter, 1% quicker, 1% stronger, 1% more confident, etc.  You have to keep going forward ekeing out the extra % improving little by little, bit by bit.

Really excited about the way we are playing this season and I'm sure that Lee and his team won't sit on their laurels, so looking forward to even more excitement as the season progresses.

Improve all these things by 1% a week and see how we will look by the end of the season.

[chinapig]

23 hours ago, spudski said:

Thanks for posting that mate...had read it before, but couldn't find it again. It's very simply put, for anyone to understand.

Perhaps when people start moaning at the ground, when we play it sideways after a high tempo intensive pressing session, they'll understand that we may be recovering, not just looking for an opening.

This struck me watching Man City beat Liverpool recently. City spent periods doing exactly what you describe. It looked planned, as if somebody had given a signal that it was time to take a breather.

I do hope we are finally seeing the end of the 'get rid of it' mentality. It's been the bane of English football for years, Ashton Gate not excepted.

[Guest]

On 21/09/2017 at 16:51, SuperDziek said:

Blimey. Any chance of a summary in a paragraph?

Thatch didn’t like it 

[downendcity]

9 hours ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Wow, I hope the oppositions management are not reading this thread.  For me, it's all about being just 1% better than the opposition, like the horse that won the national by a nose.

1% fitter, 1% quicker, 1% stronger, 1% more confident, etc.  You have to keep going forward ekeing out the extra % improving little by little, bit by bit.

Really excited about the way we are playing this season and I'm sure that Lee and his team won't sit on their laurels, so looking forward to even more excitement as the season progresses.

Improve all these things by 1% a week and see how we will look by the end of the season.

If the opposition management are reading this thread then it is good to see the way we use the hoof long ball so effectively, getting the ball forward quickly by cutting out the midfield completely, as using short passing increases the risk of losing possession in dangerous positions.

 

 

[Ian M]

1 hour ago, downendcity said:

If the opposition management are reading this thread then it is good to see the way we use the hoof long ball so effectively, getting the ball forward quickly by cutting out the midfield completely, as using short passing increases the risk of losing possession in dangerous positions.

 

 

And when we don't have the ball we just back off, back off, back off knowing that sooner or later our opponents will make a mistake and gift us another opportunity to kick it long.

[reddoh]

8 hours ago, downendcity said:

If the opposition management are reading this thread then it is good to see the way we use the hoof long ball so effectively, getting the ball forward quickly by cutting out the midfield completely, as using short passing increases the risk of losing possession in dangerous positions.

 

 

Nice post but that is the reason Gerry Gow left us :-(