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Poppies on shirts, guess which Club


cheshire_red

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20 hours ago, Paddy31 said:

Well that doesn't seem like its very fair.

If it's a choice to wear the poppy, then you can't be judging or pouring scorn and approbation on those who choose not to. If you there is a right choice and a wrong choice, then there is no choice.

I don't have to wear a poppy and you don't have any right to make a judgement about that.

"...last year I decided to stop wearing the poppy, because I find this message is no longer about remembrance, sacrifice, loss and putting an end to conflict. Instead it has become an endless drumbeat that pounds out one message, that war is always inevitable and always noble, so I shall never again wear symbols that are tainted ..."

 

I have thought about this and I am wrong.

I don't have to wear a poppy, but you can and we should respect each others choices.

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On 05/11/2017 at 18:20, ballwinningcentrehalf said:

Ah, this thread, again. Same OTIB users as usual pretending to be offended.

Ultimately, the incredible sacrifice these men and woman made in the wars was for the right of everyone to have the freedom to make these decisions, whether you agree with them or not.

The issue I have with this post is that in many cases it isn't because Celtic happened to be formed by Irish immigrants over a 100 years ago, it's because they witnessed and suffered real pain much more recently than that. 

This is a massively emotive subject, one I can barely articulate in a post on a forum, but I've sat in the homes of my own extended family who went through seeing friends and family beaten and killed during the troubles and would never, ever want to wear a poppy. On the other hand I know those who either lost friends/family at the hands of the IRA or went through the paralysing fear of bombings or bomb threats in the UK. Hating Celtic due to it's republican ties is a fairly common symptom. Is it still hate filled now? In many cases you are damn right it is. Is it small-minded? The pain still runs deep on both sides and will take generations and many, many years to heal. Whilst the above are extreme examples, there are the many, many others that don't know or understand the deeper history and merely want to feel part of a 'cause', be it standing at a football match and singing in support of the IRA or deciding Celtic and it's supporters must be inherently evil for not wearing a poppy.

Celtic are caught in a weird place. They could, and should, do more. But it's too easy to simply say 'politics don't belong at football'. The club has been political since it's inception and something so ingrained takes time and education to change.

The thing I always find interesting about these threads is that it shows up pretty obviously those that fall into the far-ends of both sides. Those that jump in to bemoan everything relating to Celtic as 'vile/scum' show their ignorance as much as the Celtic fans that they proclaim to hate.

To counteract this... Bristol was destroyed by the Germans - most of its history wiped out forever. Thousands of Bristolians never came home. My grandparents house was bombed. 

Do I hate the Germans. No. 

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On November 5, 2017 at 12:41, Grey Fox said:

My father was on North Atlantic convoy protection with the Royal Navy during WW2, he always said if you came across an Irish ship , you would meet a U boat soon after. For years after the war, those Irish men who did volunteer for the British Army to help in the fight against Hitler were persecuted by the Irish authorities. 

I have every sympathy with the Irish people over their treatment by the British before independence, but their conduct during WW2 was unforgivable.

Exactly.  The Irish government didn't give amnesty to soldiers who left The Irish army and joined the British Army to fight in WW2 until 2012

The Easter uprising was smack in the middle of WW1 

Living conditions in Dublin were largely the same as London and Bristol during the potato famine but Irish companies continued to export food abroad rather than feed people at home conveniently blaming the British government. 

You can go on and on. I prefer to look at Celtic football club as an institution that may not have existed under a Nazi Europe. Much like an Irish government  

 

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32 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

To counteract this... Bristol was destroyed by the Germans - most of its history wiped out forever. Thousands of Bristolians never came home. My grandparents house was bombed. 

Do I hate the Germans. No. 


Yet, do we not hear swathes of English fans singing '10 German Bombers' and songs and chants of that ilk whenever England face Germany?

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On 05/11/2017 at 10:20, Sweeneys Penalties said:

This was a very good link and a great read. Got me thinking why can't they have a green and white poppy i'm sure they would respect it.

Also this link to war years was very interesting. http://www.thecelticwiki.com/page/The+War+Years+-+Celtic+and+the+Great+War

I came across this too which I found interesting, anyone know what became of it?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/grandson-former-celtic-player-killed-6808306

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17 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

So the gas didn’t have one on their shirt but they play at the memorial stadium?

The Stadium is not a memorial just the gates. Didn't they establish that when Rovers were sucking up to Sainsbury 

Thus it should be correctly renamed the memorial gates stadium. I guess there will be flowers laid on the 11th. 

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8 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

It seems Celtic fans will never respect Remembrance Day or the poppy.....this video....they scream 'murdering bastards' and 'Argentina' at British troops...and just read the banners below the vid....

 

 

IMG_0129.JPG

 Do anyone else think it strange that a club and supporters who hate  the concept of Great Britain and England ( and hate is not to strong a word ) are desperate to play in the English Premier League.

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12 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

It seems Celtic fans will never respect Remembrance Day or the poppy.....this video....they scream 'murdering bastards' and 'Argentina' at British troops...and just read the banners below the vid....

 

 

IMG_0129.JPG

The pathetic message itself notwithstanding, I have always laughed at the spelling mistake in 'Bloostained' :facepalm:.

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35 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

On the subject of Irish neutrality in WW2

I appreciate they were neutral but it's fair to say they offered us more assistance than they did to the other side most certainly.

More also, based on what I've read than a neutral nation technically should have.

True.

In historical terms WW2 followed shortly the Easter Rising and Ireland War of Independence.  A mere 20 or so years later.  To join forces with Britain so soon after would have been unthinkable especially with Britain still 'occupying' the North in the eyes of many Republians.  The Irish Civil war had only just been fought over the Partition of Ireland, where Irishman were killing each other over the settlement with Britain that lead the establishment of the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland as separate states.  At the outset of the war no one really knew the extent of the Nazi's final solution for the Jews.  Let's not forget Britain's first response was appeasement rather than to go to war with the Nazis.  

To put this into context, the Falklands War was over 35 years ago. To moan about Ireland's neutrality would be like Argentina embarking on a war with one of their neighbours, and complaining that the people of the Falkland islands weren't coming to help them.

Not really sure why I bother replying to these threads, we'll still have the same voices on here telling the Irish what to do and think.  No change there then.

 

 

 

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A couple of things (for the sake of clarity)

I have relations from Cork that fought in WW2. They opted to NOT adopt the neutral stance. Many others did too

I still follow the fortunes of Glasgow Celtic... and being called scum etc on a regular basis on this forum doesn't bother me. Its almost a badge of honour by now. I also follow the fortunes of Hibs and Dunfermline incidentally. Memory suggests that Celtic haven't worn a Poppy since 2010, so the annual "news" is wearing a bit thin.

We throw "concentration camps" at the Germans as if they invented 'em. Um....I wonder who did....If memory serves me right, the Brits managed to see off more civilians than members of the opposing army at the time. Perhaps our own history isn't so bright.

I DO wear a Poppy. It's my choice. And after all, isn't choice was the very thing that WW2 was fought over?

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19 hours ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

We throw "concentration camps" at the Germans as if they invented 'em. Um....I wonder who did....If memory serves me right, the Brits managed to see off more civilians than members of the opposing army at the time. Perhaps our own history isn't so bright.

The British most definitely did not invent "concentration camps", neither did the Germans. It's very disingenuous to imply they were the same in anything but everyday language.

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4 hours ago, Gibbs said:

The British most definitely did not invent "concentration camps", neither did the Germans. It's very disingenuous to imply they were the same in anything but everyday language.

I'm no historical expert.... never claimed I was, but as far as my memory serves me, we were definitely using them during the Boer War (so a good while before WW2). Whatever the facts, and regardless of who invented them. I work on the basis that two wrongs dont make a right.

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I'm minded to quote the Orwell quote (topical due to his BBC statue):

"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."

In my younger days, I used to get angry about stuff like this. I learned that many of the people who wanted to wind me up were either WUMs, ignorant shits (you can't argue with ignorance) or just plain stupid (you can't argue with stupidity either). I also learned that being angry didn't make me fell good.

So, if someone doesn't wear a poppy, so be it (the bile normally spouted about the poppy wearing is normally misinformed and generally spouted by people who can't think for themselves).

I will be wearing the poppy and I will be attending my local remembrance church parade (even though I'm an atheist - for me, remembrance transcends faith).

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7 hours ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

I'm no historical expert.... never claimed I was, but as far as my memory serves me, we were definitely using them during the Boer War (so a good while before WW2). Whatever the facts, and regardless of who invented them. I work on the basis that two wrongs dont make a right.

Two wrongs maybe but the so called camps of the Boer and Second world wars are in no way comparable in terms of scale, savagery or loss of life.

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1 minute ago, Loon plage said:

Two wrongs maybe but the so called camps of the Boer and Second world wars are in no way comparable in terms of scale, savagery or loss of life.

To me it's irrelevant. We've committed atrocities, others have committed atrocities. The dead are dead and no amount of finger pointing will ever bring them back. What is important is that we remember everyone who has died in war, both soldiers and civilians and remember that this is ultimately the cost when we decide to fight. Therefore it is never something to be idolised or rushed into in the future. 

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4 hours ago, Roger Red Hat said:

When were they first used, and by whom?

In America in the 1830's.  Used to house Native Americans because the Americans wanted their lands.

Also used in American Civil War, originally POW camps but the number of POW' s in a lot of the camps meant that they were overcooked leading to vast numbers dying from dysentery, cholera etc

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We had camps in this country during the napoleonic wars thousands died in those camps. I saw it on Time Team when they did an investigation they found thousands of graves. We also had quite a few camps around the west country. Mind you the French were doing the same thing, but it still doesn't make it right. 

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