There is a problem

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Bob, I do like Joe, don’t get me wrong, but I appear to be in a minority that point out his errors, as most of our fans don’t want a bad word said against him. 

No detailed analysis for the goal either, just watched it once and it’s clear. 

I would much prefer to see the very talented Bryan playing left wing. I only criticise his awareness/quick alertness to danger when as a left back. It sometimes feels to me that Joe himself sees that he’s a forward thinking player and neglects his defensive awareness. He’s often slow to react to danger in his area of the pitch, whether that be slow to get back goal side after we lose possession, or slow to close down in wide positions as he stays too close to his CB. 

I like Joe. I think he’s a multi-million pound rated ‘forward-minded’ player. However, I think he’s an average championship left back. But others don’t want to see or say that. 

Agree that he’s better going forward / on the front foot and that can at times come at a price

I actually think he’s better coming forward from deep / LB but that’s a different argument

Just think you are extremely harsh and unfair trying to blame him for the goal - any analysis will highlight a number of errors by several players I’d suggest

Havnt seen it back , but for example IIRC -  both Pack and Baker dived in and went to ground together in the box allowing Maddison to check inside and finish - Wouldn’t blame them particularly as they were anticipating Maddison to shoot with his right and stronger foot but the point stands

[Harry]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Agree that he’s better going forward / on the front foot and that can at times come at a price

I actually think he’s better coming forward from deep / LB but that’s a different argument

Just think you are extremely harsh and unfair trying to blame him for the goal - any analysis will highlight a number of errors by several players I’d suggest

Havnt seen it back , but for example IIRC -  both Pack and Baker dived in and went to ground together in the box allowing Maddison to check inside and finish - Wouldn’t blame them particularly as they were anticipating Maddison to shoot with his right and stronger foot but the point stands

Yeah, I’m not piling the entire blame on Joe for their goal, however, when our CB’s are nicely set, surely it’s incumbent on a supposedly top class left back, to recognise there is danger is HIS area of the pitch, and to go and confront that. 

As for Baker & Flint both trying to close down their scorer, the one man in our box without a man/task at that moment was Bryan - and he was a statue. Baker & Flint should not have been the ones foregoing their responsibilities to close Maddison. If Joe wasn’t closing down the wide player, then he should’ve sensed a responsibility elsewhere, but he didn’t move the whole time. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

6 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yeah, I’m not piling the entire blame on Joe for their goal, however, when our CB’s are nicely set, surely it’s incumbent on a supposedly top class left back, to recognise there is danger is HIS area of the pitch, and to go and confront that. 

As for Baker & Flint both trying to close down their scorer, the one man in our box without a man/task at that moment was Bryan - and he was a statue. Baker & Flint should not have been the ones foregoing their responsibilities to close Maddison. If Joe wasn’t closing down the wide player, then he should’ve sensed a responsibility elsewhere, but he didn’t move the whole time. 

Thought it was Pack and Baker dived in but may be wrong - would have to see the goal on tv before I can grasp what you’re saying about JBs part

 

edit

Here it is Harry

People can make their own minds up but don’t see what you’re saying is in any way fair

Joe Bryan’s man plays it inside to Maddison - at that point Joe becomes irrelevant and unable to effect the play - Id suggest the space Maddison had (Who was his man) is the main issue - Nothing Joe Brian can do once the ball is passed to Maddison who cuts inside to finish 

 

http://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/competitions/championship/11206650/bristol-city-0-1-norwich

 

[Sleepy1968]

25 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Not writing Kent off but there were elements of Junior Bent about his performance today. Bags of pace & skill but tried to over-elaborate or take it too far at times, losing the ball or missing the opportunity. He had one sharp shot that he made for himself that is an encouraging pointer to what he might do.

Apparently there is a clause from Liverpool that he has to play in every game, so I guess we will see a lot more of him & be able to make a more reasoned judgment over the coming weeks. 

If playing Walsh from the start upset our balance too much (I'm not sure) then putting Kent on positively upended it. I'm not sure what school of coaching says it's a really good idea to play a youngster less than 48 hours after he signs on loan, having nearly zero first team games all season, but it was a very questionable decision at best. As you said a sharp shot (he dropped a shoulder, jinked past their defence, and got a competent shot in for openers). Then it went a bit Pete Tong.

Since the head coach/manager picks our team and not Liverpool, I don't think he'll be getting game-time unless LJ thinks he's up to it. What they probably have is some kind of penalty clause in there to 'incentivice' us into playing him.

 

[cheesleywalksoncider]

25 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Got to say @Harry

We all know you are no fan of JB for some reason

But in essence to blame him and complete a detailed analysis of any perceived mistake in it for the goal is incredible ,     in a.game where , whether at his best or not I thought he was our most likely to create , or score a goal and would have been close with Flint for MOM for me 

Wed be a very much poorer side , in many respects without Joe Bryan

Always been a big Joe Bryan fan but I think he is better playing in midfield rather than LB. It always feels like he plays with a little less freedom at LB which is completely understandable but stops he doing what he does best. Happy to see him in the team wherever he plays.  

No doubt we did miss a physical presence up front today but don’t forget Durjic played against Preston in the first half and we were very poor then, we were just one dimensional. Like many things in life football is about balance and we need to be able to mix the style of play up. I have no doubt once Fam and Durjic are fit we will start to really click and push on. 

This season is well beyond my expectations. Playoffs is a reality if not automatic. COYR

[Dr Balls]

16 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

If playing Walsh from the start upset our balance too much (I'm not sure) then putting Kent on positively upended it. I'm not sure what school of coaching says it's a really good idea to play a youngster less than 48 hours after he signs on loan, having nearly zero first team games all season, but it was a very questionable decision at best. As you said he dropped a shoulder, jinked past their defence, and got a competent shot in for openers. Then it went a bit Pete Tong.

Since the head coach/manager picks our team and not Liverpool, I don't think he'll be getting game-time unless LJ thinks he's up to it. What they probably have is some kind of penalty clause in there to 'incentivice' us into playing him.

 

Agreed on his performance & the incentive issue. It will be the same as Tammy last season. If he can settle in as well & prove to be as good as Tammy then we have done well. Let's wait & see.

I certainly think that we will have learnt a bit about Walsh & Kent, part of it being that they both need some more consistent game time, although perhaps not straight from the start at this stage.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

1 hour ago, Alex_BCFC said:

They aren't on a bad run but yes Matty Taylor ain't any good. We are desperate for our two decent striker so to come back. 

Or is it that a Matty Taylor is struggling when he is asked to play as the lone striker, rather than alongside a big target man which is what he’s used to?  He looked pretty good alongside Duric in the EFL cup.  Don’t write him up just because he is being asked to play a role that doesn’t come naturally to him during an injury crisis.

[RT's Vaseline Tub]

We are not ruthless enough with our high possession football and the mass media hype is not helping either.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, ZiderEyed said:

On what I've seen Joe Bryan isn't a left back. He's much, MUCH more effective at left mid and Magnússon is growing in to that role nicely with LK as a deputy. 

I wonder how long it'll be before Garita is given a crack of the whip. I know he's a bit of a meme but I really think we need someone with a bit of presence up top against sides like that. Seems to be more of a target man type, stronger and more capable in the air. Just a thought.

Think Taylor might be off in the summer. Would love for him to kick on and do the business in the tail end of the season but I think it's better for all parties if he moves on based on recent performances.

Not gonna agree with you about Joe NOT being a left back - but of late I've seen a really good combination between Magnússon and Bryan....and thought LJ might continue that today, at least starting eleven.

47 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

And even at left back - probably our biggest threat today when he bombed forward 

Sometimes more of a threat at Left aback than midfield - running / overlapping from deep

I caught 10 minutes (towards h-t) on a live stream before it failed and from the sounds of it, that was our best / better spell.  Bryan looked very lively, a shot, a run and cross past their full back etc.

[Dr Balls]

20 minutes ago, RT's Vaseline Tub said:

We are not ruthless enough with our high possession football and the mass media hype is not helping either.

When we were dinking it around in the first half, but not getting anywhere, and then getting caught out on the break, we did look like a team who seemed to believe the hype being made of them.

And I would certainly agree that we aren't ruthless. If anything today we were more toothless!

[Harry]

21 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Thought it was Pack and Baker dived in but may be wrong - would have to see the goal on tv before I can grasp what you’re saying about JBs part

 

edit

Here it is Harry

People can make their own minds up but don’t see what you’re saying is in any way fair

Joe Bryan’s man plays it inside to Maddison - at that point Joe becomes irrelevant and unable to effect the play - Id suggest the space Maddison had (Who was his man) is the main issue - Nothing Joe Brian can do once the ball is passed to Maddison who cuts inside to finish 

 

http://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/competitions/championship/11206650/bristol-city-0-1-norwich

 

I’m not saying Bryan could’ve done anything to prevent the goal once it was passed to Maddison, but you have Baker coming out of position to close him, then Flint trying to close him after he’s cut inside. All I’d ask from Joe is that he at least made the effort to recognise the danger and try to get there, rather than watching his two centre backs come out of their positions to try to prevent a goal. 

Joe just stands there. 

[spudski]

I couldn't make today's game...but when hearing on the radio that Mags had been dropped, my first thought at hearing we had lost 1-0 was that it come down our left.

Low and behold on watching the highlights...my fears are proved right.

I wouldn't blame Bryan for it...more so Kent for not noticing the fullback making a move and allowing the crossfield pass to happen with the space given and move inside not closed down.

My first thoughts with these new signings, was that certain players would be 'rested' to allow the new signings to bed.

Today was a prime example.

You can dominate games, but if you make mistakes like that one, you'll be punished.

I personally think we are stronger with Mags at LB and JB in LM.

Bryan is great going forward from LB, but less effective as a defender imo.

We play an expansive and free game.

We need a solid back four for that game to succeed. With JB at LB, I think it leaves us way to weak with our game plan.

My biggest worry is that LJ thinks JB at LB and Kent in LM is the way forward.

Happy to be proved wrong, but a JB and RK/JP left side is asking for trouble defensively.

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’m not saying Bryan could’ve done anything to prevent the goal once it was passed to Maddison, but you have Baker coming out of position to close him, then Flint trying to close him after he’s cut inside. All I’d ask from Joe is that he at least made the effort to recognise the danger and try to get there, rather than watching his two centre backs come out of their positions to try to prevent a goal. 

Joe just stands there. 

Harry - Just seen the goal again on TV rather than a tablet and apologise as I thought Ryan Kent was Joe and now picked Joe out somcan see much more what you’re saying - he ended up in a Nothing position unable to effect anything

All I can think is he was watching Kent’s man but Kent dropped back and took that responsibility leaving Joe ‘jobless’ but I agree he didn’t react at any point

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Harry - Just seen the goal again on TV rather than a tablet and apologise as I thought Ryan Kent was Joe and now picked Joe out somcan see much more what you’re saying - he ended up in a Nothing position unable to effect anything

All I can think is he was watching Kent’s man but Kent dropped back and took that responsibility leaving Joe ‘jobless’ but I agree he didn’t react at any point

You’re an intelligent man Bob, I knew you’d see sense 

[Hampshire reds]

If lee said we are not buying another striker who do people think he is after  or positions  he has bids in for. Was the striker comments on radio Bristol 

[And Its Smith]

1 hour ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I didn’t go to the game, so I can only go in the stats and match reports, which suggest that we battered them but they were clinical in one of their 3 shots on goal. Their keeper was made to work much harder  

Disappointing, but it happens - just ask Sheffield United fans about our game with them!! Not sure that there is a lot wrong imho. 

Of course, if we don’t start picking up points soon then the negative psychological effect will be very damaging, but right now I don’t feel panicky. 

We will lose to Derby. I’ve more or less accepted that, but then we will start picking up points again. Just look at Cardiff - their poor run was worse than ours but one win and they are back in there again. 

Dont use stats to analyse a game, please.  

[Dr Balls]

17 minutes ago, spudski said:

I couldn't make today's game...but when hearing on the radio that Mags had been dropped, my first thought at hearing we had lost 1-0 that it come down our left.

Low and behold on watching the highlights...my fears are proved right.

I wouldn't blame Bryan for it...more so Kent for not noticing the fullback making a move and allowing the crossfield pass to happen with the space given and move inside not closed down.

My first thoughts with these new signings, was that certain players would be 'rested' to allow the new signings to bed.

Today was a prime example.

You can dominate games, but if you make mistakes like that one, you'll be punished.

I personally think we are stronger with Mags at LB and JB in LM.

Bryan is great going forward from LB, but less effective as a defender imo.

We play an expansive and free game.

We need a solid back four for that game to succeed. With JB at LB, I think it leaves us way to weak with our game plan.

My biggest worry is that LJ thinks JB at LB and Kent in LM is the way forward.

Happy to be proved wrong, but a JB and RK/JP left side is asking for trouble defensively.

Spud agree with you. We need a solid back 4, and we have that when we have Magnússon at left back.

The funny thing is that we look most solid and our best formation, when we have 4 central defenders at the back, and 4 players who all like playing in the centre in midfield. Plus Reid & Paterson who also drift back into central midfield, but it actually seems to work with them all shifting positions, Bryan pushing down the left & Brownhill doing the same down the right.

[And Its Smith]

One average game and Bryan goes from best left back in the league to not good enough.

Only on OTIB.  Join us next week when after Flint loses a header he is deemed too small to be a centre back

[Grey Fox]

4 minutes ago, Hampshire reds said:

If lee said we are not buying another striker who do people think he is after  or positions  he has bids in for. Was the striker comments on radio Bristol 

Another striker..........and a right back

[rednotblue]

JB is much like Bale IMHO.

 

strated off at left back, but is much more use as a winger or dare I say it part of a front 3 

[Wrongagain]

Joe hates being in the back 4, showed it when he and Williams were being swapped around, Williams waited and waited for Joe to complete a one two, today going forward he was reluctant to put the ball forward and pass to someone in a better position, even on throw ins he was retreating to defence rather than throw the ball to players in attacking positions, it’s a great pity because he has great vision - clouded by his ego!

[GrahamC]

14 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Taylor was superb in the cup to be fair. Stoke game was his best performance for city. He certainly can't to the number 9 role though. 

But Man U pass aside, that is it for the season.

 He has been absolutely desperate in a number of successive league appearances now (plus at Watford too, apparently) and is approaching the anniversary of his last league goal for us. I know signing him was funny because of Roverzz and all that, but fact is he is miles out of his depth in this league. When Darrell Clarke said no other team in this division would sign him, he was (unusually) telling the truth.

Today,  he picks up the ball, goes past two players and then kicks it off the pitch, then late on when a cross comes in from the right, he does his trademark completely miss the ball when stood on the six yard box.

Pack has the ball, goes to give it to him and he's wondered off, so we lose possession. No wonder Engvall is said to want out if he is in front of him.

5 minutes ago, spudski said:

I couldn't make today's game...but when hearing on the radio that Mags had been dropped, my first thought at hearing we had lost 1-0 that it come down our left.

Low and behold on watching the highlights...my fears are proved right.

I wouldn't blame Bryan for it...more so Kent for not noticing the fullback making a move and allowing the crossfield pass to happen with the space given and move inside not closed down.

My first thoughts with these new signings, was that certain players would be 'rested' to allow the new signings to bed.

Today was a prime example.

You can dominate games, but if you make mistakes like that one, you'll be punished.

I personally think we are stronger with Mags at LB and JB in LM.

Bryan is great going forward from LB, but less effective as a defender imo.

We play an expansive and free game.

We need a solid back four for that game to succeed. With JB at LB, I think it leaves us way to weak with our game plan.

My biggest worry is that LJ thinks JB at LB and Kent in LM is the way forward.

Happy to be proved wrong, but a JB and RK/JP left side is asking for trouble defensively.

Agree. Sad thing is, it has been obvious for a few weeks now that LJ is itching to drop Maggers, how else can you explain the regular subbing in games of your fit left back?

It makes no difference at all, today's starting back four will play now until Pisano is 100% fit and then there will be a much more difficult decision to make.

[Wrongagain]

We have potential forwards out on loan, Bobby not big or strong enough to be up front on his own, he needs to play off someone able to receive and hold the ball - any other team would recall a loanie and plug the gap

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, RedDave said:

One average game and Bryan goes from best left back in the league to not good enough.

Only on OTIB.  Join us next week when after Flint loses a header he is deemed too small to be a centre back

You can be the best LB in the world, but if you don't have an understanding with the players in front of you it's futile. It also depends on the style of football you play.

With the way we play, you need your LB and RM understanding one another, or at least one very solid in their positioning when it comes to defending.

JB is not solid when it comes to positioning when defending...he's in a transitional period.

Even our coaching staff have said he gets away with it, because of his athleticism and endurance.

Mags is a natural defender...learnt from the best in Italy at Juve. He understands positioning, which when defending is paramount.

JB flatters to deceive as a LB, because of his effectivemess going forward, which is fantastic.

If we played more tight and less open, JB could maybe get away with it defensively...but he will always be open to mistake in positioning with our style of play.

Add that to new recruits bedding in and gaining positional understanding and you will get what happened today.

 we dominated yet lost to a lack of understanding and poor positional play. Small margins in this league.

[Cowshed]

23 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Harry - Just seen the goal again on TV rather than a tablet and apologise as I thought Ryan Kent was Joe and now picked Joe out somcan see much more what you’re saying - he ended up in a Nothing position unable to effect anything

All I can think is he was watching Kent’s man but Kent dropped back and took that responsibility leaving Joe ‘jobless’ but I agree he didn’t react at any point

Looking at it his position it is not ideal but simple defensive d's are delay attack (cross) tick, depth (support) Bryan tick, deny (space) edge of box? Its central midfield that should be controlling that space. Bryan could (maybe) have doubled up closer to the first defender. That is maybe because the Norwich player in possession who squares it was originally in advance of his man - Bryan provided support, depth and cover in relation to man and ball.

The positioning of team mates was worse.

[And Its Smith]

8 minutes ago, spudski said:

You can be the best LB in the world, but if you don't have an understanding with the players in front of you it's futile. It also depends on the style of football you play.

With the way we play, you need your LB and RM understanding one another, or at least one very solid in their positioning when it comes to defending.

JB is not solid when it comes to positioning when defending...he's in a transitional period.

Even our coaching staff have said he gets away with it, because of his athleticism and endurance.

Mags is a natural defender...learnt from the best in Italy at Juve. He understands positioning, which when defending is paramount.

JB flatters to deceive as a LB, because of his effectivemess going forward, which is fantastic.

If we played more tight and less open, JB could maybe get away with it defensively...but he will always be open to mistake in positioning with our style of play.

Add that to new recruits bedding in and gaining positional understanding and you will get what happened today.

 we dominated yet lost to a lack of understanding and poor positional play. Small margins in this league.

In summary, you underestimate Bryan.

[BobBobSuperBob]

9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Looking at it his position it is not ideal but simple defensive d's are delay attack (cross) tick, depth (support) Bryan tick, deny (space) edge of box? Its central midfield that should be controlling that space. Bryan could (maybe) have doubled up closer to the first defender. That is maybe because the Norwich player in possession who squares it was originally in advance of his man - Bryan provided support, depth and cover in relation to man and ball.

The positioning of team mates was worse.

Agree with all you say Cowshed and others culpable before JB IMHO

I can understand his original position - don’t think he could have made ground to effect Maddison but it was merely a debate about any reaction and would have liked to seen him move that way

[Rossi the Robin]

We haven’t been sussed out, Leeds are the only team I would say may have caught us cold, Burton, Millwall parked the bus 

Norwich are a good side and was a 50:50 game pre match in my opinion 

No problem at our club, I would have taken mid table, win more than we lose with exciting football at the start of the season 

[spudski]

7 minutes ago, RedDave said:

In summary, you underestimate Bryan.

Not at all...don't underestimate the summary ;-)

[Harry]

7 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Looking at it his position it is not ideal but simple defensive d's are delay attack (cross) tick, depth (support) Bryan tick, deny (space) edge of box? Its central midfield that should be controlling that space. Bryan could (maybe) have doubled up closer to the first defender. That is maybe because the Norwich player in possession who squares it was originally in advance of his man - Bryan provided support, depth and cover in relation to man and ball.

The positioning of team mates was worse.

I agree with your principles, but not with your conclusions. 

Delay. Yes, the cross is delayed, but by Kent recovering, not Bryan. 

Depth. I agree, Bryan has correctly provided depth to support his centre backs. 

Deny. Someone must deny Maddison space. Who? Well, Joe was the player responsible for him when the cross-field ball was hit, so he knows that the rest of the midfield were on the wrong side of Maddison who has cleverly found space. As Joe’s responsibilities wide were covered by Kent, it’s now no longer a question of positional principals, it’s a matter of quickness of thought and awareness. 

If you watch closely, Maddison realises he is beyond the midfield and that his previous marker (Joe) has gone back. As the ball goes across field, Maddison cleverly takes a look behind him, notices that he’s 10 yards ahead of the midfield and makes the angle for the cut back. Baker spots this straight away and looks desperate to get out there, but he knows that his responsibility is to guard the near post from a cross. Joe takes longer than Baker to suss the danger posed from Maddison’s run, and then when he does spot it, he leaves it to Baker to attempt to close down. As I said, at some point, your ‘coached’ processes have to go out of the window and you have to rely on pure instinct, awareness and quickness of thought to sense danger. Baker did, Joe didn’t.