Man City Style of Play vis-a-vis Bristol City

[Southport Red]

11 minutes ago, MCFC said:

This is just wrong.

I'd say every single player Guardiola has coached since he arrived, has improved tremendously, barring Yaya and Bravo (age?) and Mangala, who seems to be a lost cause.

Sterling, Ederson, Walker, Stones (despite his recent mistakes after injury), Otamendi, de Bruyne, Sane, Fernandinho, Aguero and even the magician David Silva, all of them have contributed and delivered a lot more.

As for the Yeovil comment, he didn't do bad with a third tier Barcelona B side, at the start of his coaching career.

Yes, 

I would however, be VERY interested to see what the other Manchester manager could do without a colossal chequebook. 

[MCFC]

3 minutes ago, Southport Red said:

There was just no time for our players to cope. People on here talking about how many times we lost possession (esp first half), but the truth is they were given zero time before your players were on them. I though we were good at the press but Citeh gave a masterclass last night. 

Now our games are over @MCFC don’t be a stranger on here, 

i’ve enjoyed Reading your take on things. 

I'll pop by, can't get rid of me that easy haha! I'll watch your games if they are on and if I'm not at one of ours (rare!) If I could have had an extra few days off, I'd have stayed in Bristol and just done the short hop over to Cardiff on Sunday!

Hopefully we'll back at yours next season.

[Southport Red]

4 hours ago, The Batman said:

 Pogba (not as good as Korey Smith but still a good player).

LOVE THIS!!

Don’t get me wrong, Pogba’s a good footballer, but he’s no Korey Smith is he?

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

No doubt, but you as a sage and forum silverback should have known different. Tiki taka was a short period in Barcelonas football under Mr Guardiola and affecting the national team. It was style of play utilising triangulation in passing, six second press, false nine and characterised often by a narrow approach. A unique set of players created the style in Iniesta, Xavi, Messi ... Mr Guardiola moved away from the style and at Bayern used what could be looked upon as wingers in Robben and Ribery and a target man in Lewandowski ... Man City again do not try to adopt tiki taka, their style is far more forceful and is based on making the pitch big in the extreme.

In the C4 documentary in Cruyff s memory they gave him the credit  of revolutionary thinking in the way football should be played. As a former Barca star and then coach he introduced the style that becaome the trademark of the great Barca sides commonly called tika-taka.

Not being a student of football philosophy and its aetiology I (wrongly it seems) assumed that it was Cruyffs invention at Barca and Pep himself was a top midfielder under Cruyff and has been deeply influenced by the great man and has taken his ways of studying the game to a different level.

[Mr Popodopolous]

@Cowshed

Agree with a lot of the post about different styles between the 3, but did Barcelona not try to make the pitch big under Guardiola? They certainly did from memory! They were a bit narrower but making the pitch big definitely would have suited them!

[PooPants]

10 minutes ago, Robbored said:

In the C4 documentary in Cruyff s memory they gave him the credit  of revolutionary thinking in the way football should be played. As a former Barca star and then coach he introduced the style that becaome the trademark of the great Barca sides commonly called tika-taka.

Not being a student of football philosophy and its aetiology I (wrongly it seems) assumed that it was Cruyffs invention at Barca and Pep himself was a top midfielder under Cruyff and has been deeply influenced by the great man and has taken his ways of studying the game to a different level.

Rinus Michels. Check out Cruyff’s autobiography. It’s a good read.

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

It was a shame Lucic’s two appearances in the league were both home defeats.....but, how many knew that when he saved that penalty away at Fulham in the cup tie, the penalty taker was Cauley Woodrow...?!

I did, but you knew i’d Know that.

Brentford 0-1, deflection off Flint, wrong-footed him.

PNE 1-2, Daniel Johnson complete mishit deceiving him. Hugill header.

28 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Great bit of trivia that.

In Lucic's league games he chipped the ball over a striker closing him down. Heart was in my mouth for a few seconds, but I liked that he had enough belief to try it, and to be fair, the skill to pull it off with a good pass.

Pass to Mags from memory, who I think was in shock!

[JamesBCFC]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Pass to Mags from memory, who I think was in shock!

He wasn't the only one!

There was a lot of murmuring around me when it happened, though a lot of it was negative about how risky the pass was.

[BS4 on Tour...]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I did, but you knew i’d Know that....

Never doubted it DF!

[mozo]

I always thought we were more akin to Liverpool under Klopp (obvs we are better)

[Ska Junkie]

5 hours ago, BCFC Richard said:

This, and then they re-cycled the ball so fast. An attack would break down we'd move the ball up to midfield they would  regain possession and then it was right back in and around our box again.

I agree with this. In addition, whereas clubs at our level mark the man who may be in receipt of a pass, they seemed to predict the path of the ball and mark the space before the man meaning they were on the front foot straight away. 

I thought our press was good but they were on a totally different level, led defensively by Fernandinho and offensively by Silva and De Bruyne, 3 wonderful players. 

[WesM]

They way they create space through the middle of the field is very clever. The way they achieve this is by actually vacating midfield and ghosting in between the lines. Two passes later, they drive into the space at pace and our lads are looking around wondering what happened and were literally chasing shadows. They did it all night and our lads were a credit in trying to counter it, but let’s have it right, with the quality they have, against our level of quality, it was always going to be a mismatch.

A joy to watch and our lads and coaching staff will learn so much from it.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

In the C4 documentary in Cruyff s memory they gave him the credit  of revolutionary thinking in the way football should be played. As a former Barca star and then coach he introduced the style that becaome the trademark of the great Barca sides commonly called tika-taka.

Not being a student of football philosophy and its aetiology I (wrongly it seems) assumed that it was Cruyffs invention at Barca and Pep himself was a top midfielder under Cruyff and has been deeply influenced by the great man and has taken his ways of studying the game to a different level.

Cruyff significant influence was Rinus Michels total football. Michels managed Barcelona, Ajax and the Netherlands . Cruyff was a player under Michels. That is the lineage.

Its a lineage that is based on technical ability and rotation that evolved into  Pep Guardiolas extreme passing machine  labelleed tiki taka in reality was a phase based upon the exceptional ability of the players at his disposal. The style was relatively short lived maybe only five six years as Barcelona moved onto having Neymar and Suarez, the former not known for his slavish dedication to passing ethic, and Mr Guardiola abandoned the passing style considering it to have become passing for passing sake in favour of adopting to differing approaches to each nation he coaches in. 

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@Cowshed

Agree with a lot of the post about different styles between the 3, but did Barcelona not try to make the pitch big under Guardiola? They certainly did from memory! They were a bit narrower but making the pitch big definitely would have suited them!

To a degree but the emphasis through passing was to create overloads via frequent triangles of passing = A 3-1 overload. These overloads could be lopsided creating weakness on the  opposing side of the pitch to exploit, or often not. At its zenith the midfield and false nine dropping in played straight through teams without needing to switch play, they were that exceptionally great at keeping the ball.

[Trueredsupporter]

20 hours ago, cityfan said:

Accepting that Man City are possibly the best team in the world and that Premier League players are on the whole, better than Championship players, there were two things that really stood out for me last night.

 

1. Man City had exceptional power and pace moving forward right the way through the team and when breaking with that power and pace they did it very directly and often through the centre of the pitch.  They are a very direct, yet concise and efficient machine
2. As with Division one teams, when Steele collects the ball, City slowly move up the pitch, organise themselves on the half-way line and on the side of the picture that our goalkeeper indicates. This results in a 50-50 ball with the defender frequently having the advantage and was particularly fruitless against Man City last night. When Bravo collected the ball, he rarely (though did on occasion) kick the ball up field.  What more often happened was that the team were already running forward when he collected the ball and Bravo was delivering that ball to them very quickly and within their stride.  The number of times Bravo did this with De Bruyne, right through the centre of the park was unbelievable.

They're a class team, but I think if we want to progress to the next level, it would be good to learn and instil this approach as soon as possible.

Being practical how realistic is all with the players here? does Lee Johnson have playmaking centre backs and full backs with a keeper who passes the ball with both feet rarely giving it away??? Starting in goal. can Citys keepers do this well enough?

[maxjak]

On 1/24/2018 at 17:13, The Batman said:

This current Man City set up have the attacking prowess similar to that of teams who have won the premier league in the past. A strong quick striker in Aguero (not big but still tough) - 2 quick wingers in Sane & Sterling (B Silva last night does the same role) - 2 creative midfielders in D Silva & De Bruyne and a Holding midfielder in Fernandinho (the key position in modern football)

This is similar to that of when Chelsea first won the league under Mourinho after Abramovich took over. Drogba up top with his pace & power, Duff & Robben on the wings, Lampard & Essien as the 2 creators (and they were tough players too) with Makelele as the key. All play in the same roles as the man city players above. Chelsea obviously had a much better defence than the current Man City team, but they still have time to buy Laporte and when Mendy comes back, they will be very dominant at the back.

No team has won the premier league without power AND pace. Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher have mentioned this so many times on MNF as to why Arsenal will not win the league for a long long time. Once they had Campbell, Vieira and Henry - a formidable spine, probably the best we will see  - now they have Holding, Xhaka & Welbeck.

Ask any defender at any level what they do not like playing against and most will say out and out pace and speed. Granted they need to be able to do something with that speed (Ivan Sproule, i'm looking at you) but mixing it with strength through the side and pacey wingers and that is the template for a successful team. Tottenham have a very strong side, but going forward, except for Son, there is no pace in their attacking play. Ali and Erikson are technically excellent, but you dont see them sprinting passed anyone, same with Kane. Hence why they wont win the league in my opinion any time soon. Liverpool are the opposite. They have all the pace, but no power and strength in the side.

Man Utd have the players there to win the league with their spine, they have the best goalkeeper in the world in De Gea, Eric Bailley (when fit) is a tremendous defender, Matic as the Holder alongside Pogba (not as good as Korey Smith but still a good player) & Lukaku with pacey wingers all over the place in Rashford, Lingard and now Alexis Sanchez. They will go far in Europe this year as will the other British Clubs in the Champions League.

 

Fascinating and very insightful............great piece

[spudski]

Some meat to the Tiki-Taka talk in plain English....

Quote...

The roots of what would develop into tiki-taka began to be implemented by Johan Cruyff during his tenure as manager of Barcelona from 1988 to 1996. The style of play continued to develop under fellow Dutch managers Louis van Gaal and Frank Rijkaard and has been adopted by other La Liga teams. Barcelona's Dutch managers made it a point to promote from their youth system, and Barcelona's La Masia youth academy has been credited with producing a generation of technically talented, often physically small, players such as Pedro, Xavi, Andrés Iniesta, Cesc Fàbregas and Lionel Messi,  players with excellent touch, vision and passing, who excel at maintaining possession.

Pep Guardiola managed Barcelona from 2008 to 2012. Under his guidance, tiki-taka reached new extremes. This was partly due to Guardiola's visionary coaching, partly due to an exceptional generation of players, many of whom had been schooled in La Masia's idiosyncratic style, and partly due to Barcelona's ability to sustain intense pressure on the ball. The 2005 update to the offside law was also a contributing factor: by forcing defenders deeper, the law expanded the effective playing area, making players' size matter less and allowing technical skills to flourish. Under Guardiola, Barcelona's tiki-taka shared Dutch Total Football's high defensive line, positional interchange and use of possession to control the game. It departed from its Dutch roots by sublimating everything to the pass: Guardiola played a centre-forward as a false nine to keep the ball moving fluidly from different angles; he played the full-backs higher; he selected midfielders in defence to exploit their passing ability; and he forced the goalkeeper to play the ball out from the back.

Raphael Honigstein describes the tiki-taka played by the Spanish national team at the 2010 World Cup as "a radical style that only evolved over the course of four years," arising from Spain's decision in 2006 that "they weren't physical and tough enough to outmuscle opponents, so instead wanted to concentrate on monopolising the ball.

Jed Davies, football coach at the University of Oxford and author of "coaching the tiki-taka style of play, believes that tiki-taka football is "among other things, a conceptual revolution based on the idea that the size of any football field is flexible and can be altered by the team playing on it. In possession, the formation should intend on creating space and therefore making the pitch as big as possible and the opposite when not in possession via Valeriy Lobanovskyi's full pitch aggressive pressing. Pep Guardiola is famed for saying "You win the ball back when there are thirty metres to their goal not eighty.

Pep Guardiola's example of tiki taka at FC Barcelona is considered the best application of this style after Barcelona won the sextuple in 2009, Barcelona played with a high defensive line usually applying the offside trap with midfielders providing support to defenders to make more passing options available. Defenders are patient, preferring safe pass options looking for midfielders with the ball circulated anywhere on the pitch waiting for a gap to make a vertical pass. The team created most of chances depending on through balls and performing give and go pass usually with Lionel Messi involved in action. Guardiola preferred freedom in the final third of the pitch which was effective as the team created many chances per match.

[Three Lions]

23 hours ago, MCFC said:

I'll pop by, can't get rid of me that easy haha! I'll watch your games if they are on and if I'm not at one of ours (rare!) If I could have had an extra few days off, I'd have stayed in Bristol and just done the short hop over to Cardiff on Sunday!

Hopefully we'll back at yours next season.

Questions fella. To start playing like Man City do Hart was bombed out. What was Man City fans reaction? Did they get it?

[Sixtyseconds]

@MCFC

Joe Hart, what has happened to sales of Head and Shoulders in Manchester?

[MCFC]

17 hours ago, Three Lions said:

Questions fella. To start playing like Man City do Hart was bombed out. What was Man City fans reaction? Did they get it?

Hated it at the time, a lot of us weren't happy, but we are now seeing why Pep did it. It didn't help Guardiola to begin with, that Bravo was a disaster.

I think it's given him a bit more leeway with other decisions he takes too.

[ExiledAjax]

19 hours ago, spudski said:

Pep Guardiola is famed for saying "You win the ball back when there are thirty metres to their goal not eighty.

Great post @spudski nice to see a distillation of the true history and concept behind the past decade's defining tactic.  Who's words are they? Wilson?

Also the line I've quoted.  We saw precisely this on Tuesday night.  I thought that the presence of Fernandinho was the biggest single difference between the two legs, and was the main reason we were pinned back so much more in the second leg than the first.

Our players, used to playing against less tenacious midfielders who anticipate and read the game less well, would try passing cross-field in that central gap between the edge of our box and the edge of the centre circle.  In the Championship these passes are generally fine; they invariably reach their target and we build an attack.  But Fernandinho (and to an extent Silva - although he was higher up the pitch) read them all and cut out or disrupted most of them.

Exceptional high defensive play, never letting us settle and providing the basis for really piling pressure on - ultimately leading to the first goal.

[ExiledAjax]

On ‎24‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 17:13, The Batman said:

A strong quick striker in Aguero (not big but still tough) - 2 quick wingers in Sane & Sterling (B Silva last night does the same role) - 2 creative midfielders in D Silva & De Bruyne and a Holding midfielder in Fernandinho (the key position in modern football)

I'd add that looking to Leicester, they did it slightly differently but had many of those attributes. Strong quick striker - Vardy. 2 quick wingers - Albrighton, Mahrez - the irrepressible Kante as a holding midfielder, and then Okazaki and Drinkwater filling in, again two solid players creating goals for Vardy.

On ‎24‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 17:13, The Batman said:

Tottenham have a very strong side, but going forward, except for Son, there is no pace in their attacking play. Ali and Erikson are technically excellent, but you dont see them sprinting passed anyone, same with Kane. Hence why they wont win the league in my opinion any time soon. Liverpool are the opposite. They have all the pace, but no power and strength in the side.

And look at what the transfer of Walker has removed from Spurs and added to Man City.  Walker is power and pace combined and personified. 

Credit where it's due for a fantastic post btw.

[bearded_red]

Pep Guardiola on tiki-taka in 2014, an extract from Pep Confidential:

"I loathe all that passing for the sake of it, all that tiki-taka. It's so much rubbish and has no purpose. You have to pass the ball with a clear intention, with the aim of making it into the opposition's goal. It's not about passing for the sake of it." 

The following day, he expands on this message in a meeting with his players. 

"Be yourselves. You need to dig into your own DNA. I hate tiki-taka. Tiki-taka means passing the ball for the sake of it, with no clear intention. And it's pointless. 

"Don't believe what people say. Barça didn't do tiki-taka! It's completely made up! Don't believe a word of it! In all team sports, the secret is to overload one side of the pitch so that the opponent must tilt its own defence to cope. You overload on one side and draw them in so that they leave the other side weak. 

"And when we've done all that, we attack and score from the other side. That's why you have to pass the ball, but only if you're doing it with a clear intention. It's only to overload the opponent, to draw them in and then to hit them with the sucker punch. That's what our game needs to be. Nothing to do with tiki-taka."

[Kid in the Riot]

18 minutes ago, bearded_red said:

Pep Guardiola on tiki-taka in 2014, an extract from Pep Confidential:

"I loathe all that passing for the sake of it, all that tiki-taka. It's so much rubbish and has no purpose. You have to pass the ball with a clear intention, with the aim of making it into the opposition's goal. It's not about passing for the sake of it." 

The following day, he expands on this message in a meeting with his players. 

"Be yourselves. You need to dig into your own DNA. I hate tiki-taka. Tiki-taka means passing the ball for the sake of it, with no clear intention. And it's pointless. 

"Don't believe what people say. Barça didn't do tiki-taka! It's completely made up! Don't believe a word of it! In all team sports, the secret is to overload one side of the pitch so that the opponent must tilt its own defence to cope. You overload on one side and draw them in so that they leave the other side weak. 

"And when we've done all that, we attack and score from the other side. That's why you have to pass the ball, but only if you're doing it with a clear intention. It's only to overload the opponent, to draw them in and then to hit them with the sucker punch. That's what our game needs to be. Nothing to do with tiki-taka."

I might be getting the wrong end of the stick, but it sounds like he's distancing himself from tiki-taka football here?

[bearded_red]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I might be getting the wrong end of the stick, but it sounds like he's distancing himself from tiki-taka football here?

Indeed!

[CotswoldRed]

It's still 40 passes and "wake me up when they have a shot". 

Less skillful but more exciting in the past with more direct play. 

Perhaps we need muddy pitches back. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

It's still 40 passes and "wake me up when they have a shot". 

Less skillful but more exciting in the past with more direct play. 

Perhaps we need muddy pitches back. 

28 shots against us Tuesday night- albeit not so many clearcut.

[The Batman]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

I'd add that looking to Leicester, they did it slightly differently but had many of those attributes. Strong quick striker - Vardy. 2 quick wingers - Albrighton, Mahrez - the irrepressible Kante as a holding midfielder, and then Okazaki and Drinkwater filling in, again two solid players creating goals for Vardy.

And look at what the transfer of Walker has removed from Spurs and added to Man City.  Walker is power and pace combined and personified. 

Credit where it's due for a fantastic post btw.

Why thank you :-)

Leicester of course defended brilliantly and basically gave their midfield free reign to cause havoc up front supporting Vardy with his speed.

I look through the last few winners of the Premier League to try and validate my thoughts on this

16/17 - Chelsea Costa, Hazard, Willian, Kante & Matic

15/16 - Leicester, Vardy, Albrighton, Mahrez, Okazaki, Drinkwater & Kante as you've alluded.

14/15 - Chelsea (slightly different formation and style to 16/17) - Costa, Hazard, Oscar, Willian, Ramires (so very underrated) & Matic 

13/14 - Man City - this is where the template slips slightly as they went with a 4-2-2-2 formation that season, but any team with Aguero & Dzeko up front with Yaya Toure & Kompany in their prime is going to dominate. The spine of that team was superb. They only really had Navas as a pacey winger, the other wingers that season were Silva (when he wasn't playing in the number 10 role, let's be honest, he can play anywhere in midfield), Nasri (remember him?? ha) and James Milner. So i'm going against my own argument here about requiring out and out speed on the wings, but Dzeko & Aguero more than made up for that and it was Dzeko's highest scoring season for Man City (he scored 2 less than Aguero that season). Anyone who used to play football manager 10 years ago knew that Aguero and Dzeko was the strike partnership to buy - needless to say, someone in the Man City hierarchy realized this and actually bought the two together. (Aguero was at Athletico Madrid and Dzeko at Wolfsberg) - oh the memories.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

@The Batman

That is a great analysis I must say. The pace and power thesis falls down a bit this season though, IMO. Pace, yes lots of it. Power? Not so much- Man City predominantly use a mix of pace and skill (and many other things, but not necessarily power) IMO. Perhaps Aguero and Sane have a bit of power...but Aguero in particular seems much more skilful to me.

[ExiledAjax]

33 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@The Batman

That is a great analysis I must say. The pace and power thesis falls down a bit this season though, IMO. Pace, yes lots of it. Power? Not so much- Man City predominantly use a mix of pace and skill (and many other things, but not necessarily power) IMO. Perhaps Aguero and Sane have a bit of power...but Aguero in particular seems much more skilful to me.

For power in this year’s Man City Team I’d point to Walker, Fernandinho, Aguero and I think De Bruyne.

When I think power I don’t necessarily just think of a Viera, Drogba, or Lukaku type figure. De Bruyne on Tuesday was so direct, all his energy directed forward and straight at our goal. Not power in the pure form of weightlifting and raw strength but a direct application of the power he does have.