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havanatopia

The Bristol City v Sunderland Match Day Thread 31

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Bob Stokoe was probably the finest manager Sunderland ever had. That famous 1-0 victory over Revie's Leeds United, wannabe kings of Europe at the time, will forever be ingrained in the mindset of a Black Cats supporter. And on that day both he and Ian Porterfield, who scored the only goal, became instant legends for Sunderland as they lifted the FA Cup; the then second division club beat the 'mighty' Leeds. Remember those red trousers as the tall wily man ran on to the Wembley pitch to celebrate the win with his players? Or perhaps his trademark Trilby and Mackintosh?

When Bob Stokoe was cutting his teeth in football management at Bury he fell out with Don Revie, who was beginning to shape an outstanding career at Leeds United. Facing up to the bleak prospect of relegation, Revie offered Stokoe a sum of money to take things easy in a match at Gigg Lane. Revie was told what he could do with the bribe, and the two men never spoke again. "I'd heard of such things happening but I couldn't believe it was being put to me," Stokoe said one night in the long ago. 

The incident was embedded so deep in Stokoe's mind that a number of years later, as manager of Blackpool, he was reluctant to agree a deal with Leeds for a talented Scottish international inside-forward Tony Green, who eventually joined Newcastle United. "I tried to get Liverpool interested," he told me. "When Bill Shankly asked me why I was set against the offer from Leeds I told him about the thing with Revie at Bury. Bill went silent. I don't think he ever again saw Revie in the same light."

I could only take Stokoe's word for this but matters moved on when allegations of bribery, mainly involving a match against Wolverhampton Wanderers, were levelled at Leeds in 1973, leading to a probe by the Daily Mirror whose hard-bitten investigative team sought my assistance on the basis of what they assumed to be a friendship with Revie. Says Ken Jones of the Independent.

To my mind Bob Stokoe epitomised all that was decent in the game of football. Widely regarded as utterly straightforward and honest. He was also a sentimental and compassionate man. At Charlton he missed a game due to the death of his dog. Along with poor results, it led to his dismissal immediately after a defeat at Crystal Palace. "The business with the dog was bound to work against you," I remember saying. "It's the way I am," he replied.

Stokoe Joined Sunderland on the 29th of November 1972 when they were 4th bottom of the old Second Division after just 4 wins in 18 matches; 45 years later, almost to the day, saw Chris Coleman join Sunderland also as manager. He has presided over just 4 wins in 14 matches. Prior to Colemans arrival they had won just once in the league. And while Coleman finds himself currently unable to address the slide started by several managers before him Bob Stokoe went on a remarkable run of only 5 defeats in 32 games culminating in that famous FA Cup win after beating Arsenal and Manchester City along the way. The fact it was against Revie must have been remarkably sweet for the man.

Sunderland finished 6th that season and narrowly missed out on promotion for two more until they were finally promoted, 4th time lucky for Stokoe, as 1976 Champions alongside City and West Brom of course. In some ways, knowing what I now do about the man, I am glad he was not at the helm the following season as Sunderland went straight back down in part because Coventry and City played the ball around the park. Of course, one cannot say it was the reason because a season is long and arduous and the writing was long on the wall for the Black Cats having lost their first 9 games back in the top flight and prompting the very honourable Bob Stokoe to tender his resignation. In fact during his long managerial career, which ended with a short spell back at Sunderland to try and halt their slide into the third tier, he was never sacked by a club. He always resigned. Those days are seemingly all but gone.

In recent times Sunderland appear to have been rather mis-managed with poor transfer decisions, large amounts of money being spent and then finding themselves with lemons with little or no sell on value. These failures ultimately come down to an owner who perhaps allowed too much leeway with past directors of football and manager's in equal measure. Whether Sunderland will once again fall into the third tier remains open to question as the season reaches its final third but thus far there appears little evidence that Chris Coleman can achieve what Bob Stokoe did 45 years ago. I bet they wish he was still around.

City have a rather decent record against the Black Cats enjoying marginally the greater number of victories. This would be our second double of the season. We must stay within striking distance of 2nd spot. Enjoy the game today.

Thanks to Ken Jones of the Independent for much of the Don Revie wording.

Edited by havanatopia
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Great starter, Hav. I remember that cup win against Revie's Leeds - I was living near Leeds at the time and the shock was palpable - mind you, my next door neighbour was a Sunderland supporter, so not all doom and gloom.

City to win 3-1

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Morning Hav and all.

 

Every time I predict a win, we lose. So given Sunny's drastic fall from grace, I would have said 2-1 win for City. Instead, I'll say 1-1 draw.

 

 

Ps hope to see our Italian Stallion on the bench or even a 10 min run around at the end.

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We need a win to kickstart our season again. Get the 3 points and our form over the last 4 games (7 from 12 with a tough game at Derby) won’t look so bad.

Anything less and we’re in danger of having a proverbial season of two halves really. 

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I too think that we need to win to kick on with this season.

It is increasingly frustrating watching teams come to AG to stifle the game and hope to pinch a victory from a set piece or other contentious issue.

IMO we haven't had the greatest amount of luck from the officials in recent games and it will depend on the 50/50 balls (ie if we win the second ball) we will emerge victorious....if not...a draw or worst case loss.

I believe that this team has the ability to make it to the play offs.....and we know what we are able to achieve with this team when the big games come.......all we need is a winning mentality and a refusal to accept being stifled...let's get creative and make life difficult for the black cats today.....three points await.

My prediction is a frustrating 2-1 win.

COYRS

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I'm not going to get too optimistic until the official team sheet is in:

I think OTIB is almost in universal agreement that Korey Smith should start CM with Bailey Wright at RB and Mags in the centre.

Very few home tickets left (probably under 400) which is a great achievement. Well done everybody (that actually turns up!).

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A Mackem's eye view of our 4 - 3 victory in the opening game of the 1970 season... against newly relegated Sunderland at The Gate..

http://www.wearewearside.com/post/2013/08/13/Opening-Day-1970-Bristol-City-v-Sunderland.aspx 

Was there for this one as a young teen watching from 'the enclosure' in front of 'the Grandstand' ...

Great game of max excitement. 

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Not predicted a score right all season.

LJs threshing machine 1-3 Almost Scots

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41 minutes ago, WhistleHappy said:

A Mackem's eye view of our 4 - 3 victory in the opening game of the 1970 season... against newly relegated Sunderland at The Gate..

http://www.wearewearside.com/post/2013/08/13/Opening-Day-1970-Bristol-City-v-Sunderland.aspx 

Was there for this one as a young teen watching from 'the enclosure' in front of 'the Grandstand' ...

Great game of max excitement. 

It was indeed a great game - and the day the East End Skins sent the cheeky Mackem Skins home nursing their wounds.

Not a place for the faint-hearted.

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3 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Bob Stokoe was probably the finest manager Sunderland ever had. That famous 1-0 victory over Revie's Leeds United, wannabe kings of Europe at the time, will forever be ingrained in the mindset of a Black Cats supporter. And on that day both he and Ian Porterfield, who scored the only goal, became instant legends for Sunderland as they lifted the FA Cup; 

Thanks to Ken Jones of the Independent for much of the Don Revie wording.

Surely Jim Montgomery would have been the 3rd instant all time legend for Sunderland fans for that fantastic double save.

That whole team all time legends up there I'm sure.

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1 hour ago, Sleepy1968 said:

I'm not going to get too optimistic until the official team sheet is in:

I think OTIB is almost in universal agreement that Korey Smith should start CM with Bailey Wright at RB and Mags in the centre.

Very few home tickets left (probably under 400) which is a great achievement. Well done everybody (that actually turns up!).

Its nice that we all agree on something!

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2 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Hopefully 3 at the back, if not playing our best midfielder at right back is a mistake IMO, I am surprised Paterson is being given another chance.

Totally agree on both counts; LJ will have a lot to answer for if we don't win today as it looks as though he learned nothing from the Bolton defeat.

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4 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Hopefully 3 at the back, if not playing our best midfielder at right back is a mistake IMO, I am surprised Paterson is being given another chance.

Can't see how that line up is anything but a variation on 4-4-2.

Agree about Korey at RB, let's hope we are bettered prepared this week with this set up.

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******* hell, Smith at right back again. Play Hörður!!!

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2 minutes ago, EstoniaTallinnRed said:

Sheff U winning 2 - 1 I'm still worried about them!

You are right to be will only be 2 pts behind us, if we lose, and given the same team selection mistakes as against Bolton have been made again a defeat for us would sadly not surprise me.

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7 minutes ago, Super said:

I thought one of our main strikers was out injured? Another BS rumour from the forum.

If it's me you're referring to then I stated that Diony wouldn't feature as he's had the flu this week. I was told that on Wednesday. Just because he's on the bench doesn't mean he'll play a part. He was due to start the game today. Maybe he has recovered quicker than expected. Think my record speaks for itself on this forum but if you want to lazily call it 'bullshit ' then up to you. Sure people can make their own minds up!

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4 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

******* hell, Smith at right back again. Play Hörður!!!

This!!! Can you imagine how Maggers must feel, knowing that LJ would rather play a centre-mid at right-back rather than him at centre-back, his natural position???

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2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

If it's me you're referring to then I stated that Diony wouldn't feature as he's had the flu this week. I was told that on Wednesday. Just because he's on the bench doesn't mean he'll play a part. He was due to start the game today. Maybe he has recovered quicker than expected. Think my record speaks for itself on this forum but if you want to lazily call it 'bullshit ' then up to you. Sure people can make their own minds up!

Bit defensive aren't you? More than one person mentioned a missing striker but you seem to have taken it a bit personally. 

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2 minutes ago, Lympsham Red said:

This!!! Can you imagine how Maggers must feel, knowing that LJ would rather play a centre-mid at right-back rather than him at centre-back, his natural position???

I'm not him but it'd shred my confidence tbh. Football is largely about the mind, this shows to me that either LJ doesn't trust him/think he's up to it IMO.

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With the same team,  bar Fielding,  against Bolton,  I can see another struggle,  as The Black Cats will be up for it this afternoon.  I really hope I'm wrong and LJ doesn't go gung ho if we are drawing,  a point is better than none.  Anyway,  who knows,  after the break in Dubai,  they could come back refreshed and really up for it and win well.  So do it boys!  COYR's

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6 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

A win, any win will do.

Yep.

Glad to see no-one is saying we owe anyone a hammering, and they hope it is today.

A scrappy 1-0 with no new injuries will do for me.

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3 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

I'm not him but it'd shred my confidence tbh. Football is largely about the mind, this shows to me that either LJ doesn't trust him/think he's up to it IMO.

and like against Bolton in a game where our defence is not expected to come under much pressure... and with the hindsight of how much we missed Korey in CM in that awful game... terrible decision in my view. 

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9 minutes ago, Chris_Brown said:

Bit defensive aren't you? More than one person mentioned a missing striker but you seem to have taken it a bit personally. 

Not before I mentioned it. I have a right to explain myself, don't I?  

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8 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

If it's me you're referring to then I stated that Diony wouldn't feature as he's had the flu this week. I was told that on Wednesday. Just because he's on the bench doesn't mean he'll play a part. He was due to start the game today. Maybe he has recovered quicker than expected. Think my record speaks for itself on this forum but if you want to lazily call it 'bullshit ' then up to you. Sure people can make their own minds up!

I’d be surprised if Diony was going to start today and I’d be even more surprised if you knew specifically LJ was going to start with him. That’s pretty private knowledge I would imagine.

I’m sure in training this week they tried all sorts of combinations, that  people could have seen, but if he has had the flu, but was going to start, that means LJ would have decided that some time early last week, which seems a little early and certainly a little harsh on whoever would have made Way and a gamble after his performance against Bolton showed someone no where near upto speed with the division yet. 

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1 minute ago, old_eastender said:

and like against Bolton in a game where our defence is not expected to come under much pressure... and with the hindsight of how much we missed Korey in CM in that awful game... terrible decision in my view. 

The only thing I can guess LJ thought is that a more attacking full back than BW would be useful. Other than that I totally agree.

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Time to get my hat and scarf, brave the rain , and leg it down the Gate.

COME ON CITY, NO MERCY, TEAR SUNDERLAND ASUNDER. :city:

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8 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I’d be surprised if Diony was going to start today and I’d be even more surprised if you knew specifically LJ was going to start with him. That’s pretty private knowledge I would imagine.

I’m sure in training this week they tried all sorts of combinations, that  people could have seen, but if he has had the flu, but was going to start, that means LJ would have decided that some time early last week, which seems a little early and certainly a little harsh on whoever would have made Way and a gamble after his performance against Bolton showed someone no where near upto speed with the division yet. 

Be prepared to be surprised then as on several occasions this season LJ has picked the team up to 5 days in advance and let the players know accordingly. 

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2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Be prepared to be surprised then as on several occasions this season LJ has picked the team up to 5 days in advance and let the players know accordingly. 

That may well be the case from time to time, who knows, easy to say, harder to prove - but it still doesn't explain that it would have been a very odd choice, IMO, to drop either top scorer Reid, or Fam who has scored and looked good since he came back, for someone who clearly hasn't been up to speed since he arrived. I imagine he needs more runs off the bench first.

I'm guessing if you're right he'll start against Leeds next Sunday when he has had chance to recover from the flu, although if he did have it, i'm surprised he is on the bench today. Which suggests maybe it was a cold, in which case he could have started.

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19 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

That may well be the case from time to time, who knows, easy to say, harder to prove - but it still doesn't explain that it would have been a very odd choice, IMO, to drop either top scorer Reid, or Fam who has scored and looked good since he came back, for someone who clearly hasn't been up to speed since he arrived. I imagine he needs more runs off the bench first.

I'm guessing if you're right he'll start against Leeds next Sunday when he has had chance to recover from the flu, although if he did have it, i'm surprised he is on the bench today. Which suggests maybe it was a cold, in which case he could have started.

Christ. You are over-thinking this.

The first team coaching staff wanted to start him today but he's had the flu and so not fit enough to be named in the starting XI.

It really is that simple.

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