Turning work in progress into promotion

[Jerseybean]

So with a little more than 4/5ths of the season behind us what do you think about our style of play and ‘identity’ and what do you think we need to do next to progress further?

 

LJ has consistently pointed out that we are ‘a work in progress’ and has recently stated that if players would or could not play the way he wants they will be replaced.

 

IMO we have been at our best and most successful this season when we have combined our high pressing game, played the ball short and accurately and played out quickly from the back. All of which has limited the opposition and enabled us to over-load the opposition and create.

 

There have been a few games where we’ve managed to employ the best aspects of this approach for 90 minutes, others in which we have seen some evidence of it and unfortunately (particularly more recently e.g. Cardiff, PNE and Burton) games where there has been little or no signs of any of it!

 

So I think LJ has a preferred approach / identity which relies on high levels of fitness, concentration and skill.  IMO, as the season has progressed, we have increasingly lost touch with  the attributes which LJ wants and which were rewarded with points and attractive football earlier in the season. There are numerous likely reasons for this including: opponents countering our approach, our high number of injuries, which has limited rotating / resting players, and the sheer physical / mental demands of our approach, especially with the extra games / demands that flowed from our great cup run.

 

As to what we need to do to progress further, I have a very simple view. IMO we need to do whatever it takes to consistently maintain the level of our best performances for the entire season! That will mean: strengthening the squad in terms of skill and depth, holding onto our best players and having less injuries.

 

Look forward to others thoughts. 

 

[Major Isewater]

Every team is a ' work in progress ' , do Real , Barca et al say ' that's us , we can't get any better ? ' 

( probably in Spanish or Catalan) 

IF NOT NOW THEN WHEN  ?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Agree with the OP about combining high press, with passing out from the back- resulting in chances of overloading the opposition with chances created- that was definitely our 'Plan A' and our side at their best.

4-3-3 or Paterson behind Reid would help with this I think.

Can we query the depth that much really though? Our medium-long term injuries have been pretty off the charts this season...really rare IMO. The Cup run played a part of course, but a decent number of these were obtained in League games, so we certainly cannot blame it entirely.

Examples:

• Pisano- Missed 28 out of 37 games, First Choice RB.
• O'Dowda- Surely based on his Autumn form in particular, a first choice winger- missed 19 out of 37 games.
• Diedhiou- Our record signing, missed 14 out of 37 games.
• Djuric- A first reserve striker, missed 28 out of 37 games.

Before we even begin to analyse the next level down/rotational players e.g. Hegeler 34 out of 37 games, or O'Neil 2 Sub appearances in 37 games!

Definitely, our run of injuries has been fairly freakish- or highly unlucky at least.

[Major Isewater]

19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree with the OP about combining high press, with passing out from the back- resulting in chances of overloading the opposition with chances created- that was definitely our 'Plan A' and our side at their best.

4-3-3 or Paterson behind Reid would help with this I think.

Can we query the depth that much really though? Our medium-long term injuries have been pretty off the charts this season...really rare IMO. The Cup run played a part of course, but a decent number of these were obtained in League games, so we certainly cannot blame it entirely.

Examples:

• Pisano- Missed 28 out of 37 games, First Choice RB.
• O'Dowda- Surely based on his Autumn form in particular, a first choice winger- missed 19 out of 37 games.
• Diedhiou- Our record signing, missed 14 out of 37 games.
• Djuric- A first reserve striker, missed 28 out of 37 games.

Before we even begin to analyse the next level down/rotational players e.g. Hegeler 34 out of 37 games, or O'Neil 2 Sub appearances in 37 games!

Definitely, our run of injuries has been fairly freakish- or highly unlucky at least.

I don't trust to luck . 

[INCRED]

The obvious reason we have hit the buffers is the injuries that the OP has stated but in addition it is clear we don’t have enough depth in the squad to the same level of quality that needed to step up and play. We have been very unlucky regards the length of the injuries. I personally think the cup games were a distraction and had we not had the fixture congestion in December & Jan then things may look very different now but I don’t think many of us would have wanted to forfeit that fantastic night versus Man U and the 2 games against Man City but it has cost us dear I fear.

Whilst there is still a chance to make the top 6 and key players returning timing may be everything and football has a funny way of rewarding us as well as kicking us in the teeth. If we don’t finish the season we’ll then it could be an interesting summer and perhaps more comings and goings if LJ thinks it is necessary.

[Alessandro]

Some might not like this, but for me, simply keep on as we have, and then give it one thing - TIME. 

[Robbored]

This season has been pretty damn good in my opinion despite the injury curse hitting so many of our squad.

LJ and his backroom staff have all done a terrific job by establishing City in the Championship and working on a method of play that will hopefully becomes unique to us.

Based on the high press, high energy model it's already a joy to watch and I'm sure that over time it'll become even more enjoyable. I'm looking forward to next season already.

Very much a work in progress for sure and still along way to go but I'm optimistic that under SL and the current management City will become a serious contender before too long.

[AshtonGreat]

Personally, I don't buy this whole injury crisis thing. It's been no worse than any other club's. And we had an excellent opportunity to buy reinforcements in January, but failed to take it.

[Robbored]

14 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Personally, I don't buy this whole injury crisis thing. It's been no worse than any other club's. And we had an excellent opportunity to buy reinforcements in January, but failed to take it.

 Diedhiou, GoN, O'Dowda, Pisaro, Taylor and Djuric 

6 long term injuries, over have a team.

Nearly all will soon be available for selection again which is possibly why reinforcements weren't deemed necessary in January Add to that SLs well known transfer policy and you have another reason.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

I don't trust to luck . 

Still, it's above the norm, wouldn't you think?

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

 Diedhiou, GoN, O'Dowda, Pisaro, Taylor and Djuric 

6 long term injuries, over have a team.

Nearly all will soon be available for selection again which is possibly why reinforcements weren't deemed necessary in January Add to that SLs well known transfer policy and you have another reason.

Hasn't Hegeler also been out a while?

A useful squad player in certain situations IMO..I make that 7.

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Hasn't Hegeler also been out a while?

A useful squad player in certain situations IMO..I make that 7.

I forgot to type his name..................

[ScottishRed]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree with the OP about combining high press, with passing out from the back- resulting in chances of overloading the opposition with chances created- that was definitely our 'Plan A' and our side at their best.

4-3-3 or Paterson behind Reid would help with this I think.

Can we query the depth that much really though? Our medium-long term injuries have been pretty off the charts this season...really rare IMO. The Cup run played a part of course, but a decent number of these were obtained in League games, so we certainly cannot blame it entirely.

Examples:

• Pisano- Missed 28 out of 37 games, First Choice RB.
• O'Dowda- Surely based on his Autumn form in particular, a first choice winger- missed 19 out of 37 games.
• Diedhiou- Our record signing, missed 14 out of 37 games.
• Djuric- A first reserve striker, missed 28 out of 37 games.

Before we even begin to analyse the next level down/rotational players e.g. Hegeler 34 out of 37 games, or O'Neil 2 Sub appearances in 37 games!

Definitely, our run of injuries has been fairly freakish- or highly unlucky at least.

Whilst the level has been high injuries are part of the game and therefore that is why you have a squad..

I think we can discount O'Neil as even if fit he would struggle to start in our midfield.

The fact that we only had one RB when the season started was a huge risk given Pisano's age and lack of experience of English football.

Hegeler is simply not suited to this league.

And then there is the strikers - the gamble on Bobby has payed off hugely, but it was a gamble.

Famara has done well too but missed a lot of games.

Djuric has missed more games than he has been available.

The back-up strikers are not of the quality required so another reason why we are where we are.

[ScottishRed]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

This season has been pretty damn good in my opinion despite the injury curse hitting so many of our squad.

LJ and his backroom staff have all done a terrific job by establishing City in the Championship and working on a method of play that will hopefully becomes unique to us.

Based on the high press, high energy model it's already a joy to watch and I'm sure that over time it'll become even more enjoyable. I'm looking forward to next season already.

Very much a work in progress for sure and still along way to go but I'm optimistic that under SL and the current management City will become a serious contender before too long.

The method of play is hardly unique to us - and has already been worked out.

Our problem with that is that our Plan B is to 'launch it'

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

The method of play is hardly unique to us - and has already been worked out.

Our problem with that is that our Plan B is to 'launch it'

Good grief.......................

Did you not read the words "work in progress?" 

You obviously must have so what does that tell you?      

[spudski]

Time and Patience.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Football_League_Championship_clubs

[Talk Of The Town]

1 hour ago, AshtonGreat said:

Personally, I don't buy this whole injury crisis thing. It's been no worse than any other club's. And we had an excellent opportunity to buy reinforcements in January, but failed to take it.

Injuries are part and parcel of a squad throughout a season. I agree, we are no worse off. Sheffield Wednesday have 16 injured players. When Villa beat us 5-0 they had 9 injuries.  That’s why it’s a squad game.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

It took Alan Dicks ten seasons.  I suspect Lee Johnson is capable of doing it in less.

Dicks’s young team took around five seasons to fully develop, the last piece of the jigsaw being the signing of Paul Cheesely.  A long time ago, I know, but it was worth it in the end.

[ScottishRed]

7 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

It took Alan Dicks ten seasons.  I suspect Lee Johnson is capable of doing it in less.

Dicks’s young team took around five seasons to fully develop, the last piece of the jigsaw being the signing of Paul Cheesely.  A long time ago, I know, but it was worth it in the end.

Very very different times in so many ways football wise.

The game has changed beyond recognition unfortunately and there is little point in comparison, those days have gone.

I am very surprised that some on here fail to appreciate that teams now don't get the same time to develop for a number of reasons, not least that when you have "developed" a couple of outstanding players there is every chance they will move on at the first opportunity of a big pay day for BOTH them and the club.

As our owner said around a year ago he and  WE cannot get 'attached' to players - that tells you all you need to know.

There is a romantic notion with some that this current team will be strengthened in the summer and next season the chance will come again, it may do, but ultimately that is less than likely as any good offers will be accepted and if the money is right any single one of our players would be gone - don't blame them at all, it's their job.

In that circumstance the strategy, as I understand it, is to buy a cheaper replacement and develop them - rinse and repeat.

 

 

[Spike]

My honest opinion:
 

• We only have one game plan and when it fails LJ seems lost in how to change it up
• When teams set out to attack us our pass out from the back tactics work well but when they sit back we struggle to create real goalscoring chances
• Our best left back is a better left-midfielder and realistically we should be looking to bring in a starting quality left back for next season
• we have far too many strikers who are league one quality at best and if they're using up wages that can be better used elsewhere they should be released
• Magnússon doesn't look like he'll ever be a reliable first-team player and every time he starts I feel less confident
• Pisano is a solid Right Back but we need someone able to jump straight into the starting line up and be able to do just as good a job, Wright is not a right back
• Hunt has potential but has to work hard on his decision making, I personally think he'll be on loan elsewhere next season
• We could do with a young, technical striker who is hungry on the bench to give Diedhiou and Reid something to think about on the rare occasion they don't perform, right now their places are no brainers.
• Injuries are not an acceptable excuse for poor form or a reason for losing, every team has injuries, that's why you have squads with depth, so when there are injuries someone can step in and do a job.

I think deep down I got carried away with our start to the season and cup run BUT before January even came around I had a strong feeling January would be the month where LJ would have to show his intent and for me he didn't. I think Diony had warning signs all over him and even with people saying he needs time to adapt it still makes no sense why a club would pay £9m for a striker with experience in their league and then offload him on a loan deal 6 months later unless something wasn't right. That aside it was clear to see we needed some depth in defense on the flanks yet we added nothing, not even a loan in to give us some cover.

Overall I think this club is far from being a contender for a Premiership spot and I don't think that'll change next season unless LJ can work on creating a plan b. We're a one plan team right now with weaknesses that are easy to exploit now the season has gone on long enough for them to become apparent. Is it all doom and gloom? No, a few solid players coming in during the summer and the right ones remaining at the club and we could have the depth and ability we need in the squad, then all we would need is a plan b to be put in place by our manager and we could actually be a genuine threat. Right now however I think LJ has dropped the ball and the players are tired, not just physically but mentally. They've had some massive games this season and there is still 9 more to go and we're now three points out of running with a much smaller GD than all of those above us so I just don't see the turnaround happening at this point. 9 games to go and our form is behind every team above us except Derby, however the 4 teams below us are all on better form too, I think LJ has made some really damaging decisions and much like last season I geneuinly hope he's learned his lesson by now.

[BS4 on Tour...]

Nah, it’s a ‘project’ - it involves measuring the length of the grass at away grounds before the game as this can influence tactics....what’s that noise? Oh, it’s Cloughie and Shanks turning in their graves...

[Gert Mare]

Sell all our best players in the summer, buy more youngsters and build from within. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, ScottishRed said:

Whilst the level has been high injuries are part of the game and therefore that is why you have a squad..

I think we can discount O'Neil as even if fit he would struggle to start in our midfield.

The fact that we only had one RB when the season started was a huge risk given Pisano's age and lack of experience of English football.

Hegeler is simply not suited to this league.

And then there is the strikers - the gamble on Bobby has payed off hugely, but it was a gamble.

Famara has done well too but missed a lot of games.

Djuric has missed more games than he has been available.

The back-up strikers are not of the quality required so another reason why we are where we are.

We do have a squad- albeit one that was decimated by medium-long term injuries. Not just that but unlucky suspensions, e.g. Bailey Wright and Baker for a start. It all adds up...

Still a useful squad player. Bring him on, help to kill a game-0 his experience in a 3 can be of use, perhaps rotate a bit v some of the weaker sides.

Agreed on that- you would need 2 IMO.

Well...in many ways no, but in certain setups he could do a job. For example as a passing centre back vs say Burton at home, or as part of a midfield 3 when absorbing pressure, perhaps away from home- especially if he's screening between the midfield and defence for example. There's a reason most sides don't play 4-4-2 in this League even anymore- because it's ******* outdated! Even as part of a back 3 as a passing centre back, he could do a job in some circs IMO.

Definitely a gamble, but paid off extremely well yeah!

Famara- Can't account for that.

Djuric- Again- can't account for that.

Taylor, let alone those below him definitely are not of the level required. However, last season Taylor provided a reasonable number of assists. If you don't score as a striker, assists is your option- Taylor and Paterson behind Reid in a 4-3-3 or Paterson behind those 2...if Paterson is a spark and Taylor is- as he was last year- capable of providing assists then maybe...but no assists=no point.

My point is though, we do have a squad- if we didn't, we would have dropped off quicker. More dramatically- a squad to a point anyway.

Have we made mistakes in the market? Sure, yeah. Woodrow, Engvall probably, Diony- out. Kent, Out. Though I think Kent used differently could be reasonable but he's not done enough.

4-4-2 is a a fairly outdated formation unless you play it in a diamond or an ultra fluid 4-2-2-2  or 4-3-1-2 IMO- no coincidence our best, most cohesive spell came with Paterson behind Reid- able to drift forward and back. FFS, even Pulis and Warnock- nobody's idea of modern, progressive managers- play 4-3-3!

I would also add, our lack of a proper, consistent  Plan B is coming back to bite us. I remember back in he summer, LJ said this was the Plan A...they had worked on it all summer. Might it have just been a tiny bit clever, not to put all eggs in one basket in that sense??

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, ScottishRed said:

The method of play is hardly unique to us - and has already been worked out.

Our problem with that is that our Plan B is to 'launch it'

My dad posed the same question to me yesterday.  I’m not sure we have been sussed out, but there is also no way you can play one style and expect it to work every week....unless you’re Man City.  Even Wolves you could argue might have been sussed out over their last 4 or 5 games, although they’ve been predominantly playing top 6(ish) sides, do bound to get a challenge.  Even Football Manager now kills your killer tactic!!

I mentioned in another post that in the main we’ve played well at home, but for me (tv, radio and highlights....and Olé’s reviews) our away form, style and results has not been good for a while....Sheffield Utd....despite winning, I thought we struggled.  Derby you might argue was a well-fought 0-0.

My issue is we can’t keep the ball away from home, we also don’t control the tempo like we do at home.  I rarely see 3 separate units at home, yet away from home we seem less of a unit.

So, i’m happy with 442, because I don’t believe our formation is rigid, it’s just a "goal-kick set-up", we know Brownhill comes in off the right, Bobby comes short, etc etc.  It works better at home though.

The problem could (just a suggestion) be that our Plan B, is so far removed from Plan A, that it becomes very difficult to move to either all game (Cardiff despite LJ’s post-match presser), or part-game (Burton with Djúric).  Sometimes it comes off (QPR with Flint).  Often it just makes us look disjointed.

So maybe we need a Plan A v2.0....a subtle move away from Plan A, but still involves us playing similarly.  Perhaps Plan A v2.0, was Pato behind Reid for that spell up to Xmas?  Maybe it should be 460, overload midfield and get the ball and keep it, taking the sting out of the home side (I say home side, because as I say above most of the disappointment has been away - we aren’t good enough to expect the odd defeat at home), until we regain our foothold.

Perhaps this will be the pre-season aim, to build on Plan A, but also develop ‘another’ properly.  Also, ensure we recruit for both too!

[Robbored]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

My dad posed the same question to me yesterday.  I’m not sure we have been sussed out, but there is also no way you can play one style and expect it to work every week....unless you’re Man City.  Even Wolves you could argue might have been sussed out over their last 4 or 5 games, although they’ve been predominantly playing top 6(ish) sides, do bound to get a challenge.  Even Football Manager now kills your killer tactic!!

I mentioned in another post that in the main we’ve played well at home, but for me (tv, radio and highlights....and Olé’s reviews) our away form, style and results has not been good for a while....Sheffield Utd....despite winning, I thought we struggled.  Derby you might argue was a well-fought 0-0.

My issue is we can’t keep the ball away from home, we also don’t control the tempo like we do at home.  I rarely see 3 separate units at home, yet away from home we seem less of a unit.

So, i’m happy with 442, because I don’t believe our formation is rigid, it’s just a "goal-kick set-up", we know Brownhill comes in off the right, Bobby comes short, etc etc.  It works better at home though.

The problem could (just a suggestion) be that our Plan B, is so far removed from Plan A, that it becomes very difficult to move to either all game (Cardiff despite LJ’s post-match presser), or part-game (Burton with Djúric).  Sometimes it comes off (QPR with Flint).  Often it just makes us look disjointed.

So maybe we need a Plan A v2.0....a subtle move away from Plan A, but still involves us playing similarly.  Perhaps Plan A v2.0, was Pato behind Reid for that spell up to Xmas?  Maybe it should be 460, overload midfield and get the ball and keep it, taking the sting out of the home side (I say home side, because as I say above most of the disappointment has been away - we aren’t good enough to expect the odd defeat at home), until we regain our foothold.

Perhaps this will be the pre-season aim, to build on Plan A, but also develop ‘another’ properly.  Also, ensure we recruit for both too!

Blimey.......you've given this some serious thought!

btw - you lost me after the fifth paragraph.................

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Blimey.......you've given this some serious thought!

btw - you lost me after the fifth paragraph.................

Ok, basically saying that Plan A is short passing, Plan B is hoofball.  We need a second plan, that is closer in style to Plan A, so that when we switch to it, we switch seemlessly.

Compendré? 

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ok, basically saying that Plan A is short passing, Plan B is hoofball.  We need a second plan, that is closer in style to Plan A, so that when we switch to it, we switch seemlessly.

Compendré? 

Sort of.........  

I'm sure most of us like Plan A and dislike Plan B.  To me Plan C would be Plan A but at a higher tempo.

[BigTone]

Not sure I like the term "Work in Progress" but would rather hear "Work TO Progress".  We have had a highly successful season and surely the end goal of this must be that we try and get promoted otherwise why bother. If we don't do that then clubs will come in during the summer and start picking off our better players. Players have a short career and if we fail TO progress then no one can blame them if they can see a short cut to success by moving elsewhere. Where does that leave us is the question. Starting again from scratch is the answer. If we go up most likely we will come straight back down but with a fair few million in our pockets and the benefit of parachute payments. I think this will help us to become stronger if we are a yoyo club for 2 or 3 years. This is just my opinion and I'm sure many will disagree.

[BigTone]

20 hours ago, Robbored said:

Sort of.........  

I'm sure most of us like Plan A and dislike Plan B.  To me Plan C would be Plan A but at a higher tempo.

But surely plan D would be like plan C which is a different tempo again from plan B. Plan E I think is too close to plan B but could be better than plan F should that be similar to plan G.

It's all in the planning I think.

[phil_clevedon]

On 12/03/2018 at 20:42, Spike said:

Overall I think this club is far from being a contender for a Premiership spot and I don't think that'll change next season unless LJ can work on creating a plan b. We're a one plan team right now with weaknesses that are easy to exploit now the season has gone on long enough for them to become apparent. Is it all doom and gloom? No, a few solid players coming in during the summer and the right ones remaining at the club and we could have the depth and ability we need in the squad, then all we would need is a plan b to be put in place by our manager and we could actually be a genuine threat. Right now however I think LJ has dropped the ball and the players are tired, not just physically but mentally. They've had some massive games this season and there is still 9 more to go and we're now three points out of running with a much smaller GD than all of those above us so I just don't see the turnaround happening at this point. 9 games to go and our form is behind every team above us except Derby, however the 4 teams below us are all on better form too, I think LJ has made some really damaging decisions and much like last season I geneuinly hope he's learned his lesson by now.

We're a lot closer than we were last season, and no-one saw that coming either. That's progress and I remain optimistic for next season!