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UPDATE - THERE WILL BE NO WALKOUT - CANCELLED


Harry

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Well I have to say I am very disappointed to have to post this.

I posted this morning suggesting a walkout on Saturday in order to demonstrate to Bristol Sport that us Bristol City fans were a different breed and we would not take price hikes to the most vulnerable in our fanbase lightly.  I always thought that we were different.  Heard so many times that "oh that wouldn't happen at City" and "we wouldn't stand for that" when there have been stories of corporate greed and fans being taken for a ride at other clubs.

From the reaction my suggestion has received, it appears I have completely misjudged our fans.  I thought there would be a strong weight of opinion against the indiscriminate price rises for kids, the elderly and the disabled.  I thought that we would all stand up for each other, have each others backs, and stick up for those in our fanbase who were being edged out in favour of corporate money, glory supporters and greed.

I'm sad to say that I was very wrong.  It appears as if there are about 30 or 40 people who seem really behind it, which let's face it is a shit protest.  It seems most of our fans are too keen to not upset the players and ruin our (fading) premiership dream, rather than stick up for their fellow supporters who are having their matchday experience nullified by the decisions made.  I don't mind other people disagreeing with me on this, but I have received a torrent of abuse today for trying to stick up for others (on all forms of media, not just on here).  I'm not in it for that.  I thought I was helping others, but it seems I'm causing all sorts of division and hatred.

As a result, I am not going to suggest to anyone that they walk out in protest this week.  You can all carry on doing whatever you want to do and ignore the bigger picture.  That's your right.

Over the years I have been someone who has tried to bring as much atmosphere to Ashton Gate as possible.  I have been active in support of this club and trying to improve the colour, atmosphere and general experience.  It seems all of that is completely futile.  After the abuse received today I'm not going to bother any more.  I will continue to support my team for the rest of this season, in body, but not in voice.  I've had to put up with the following over the years :
You think you're a superfan, why do you sing that shit song, why don't you sing this, the atmosphere is shit, S82 is shit, you sing too fast, you sing too slow, that song has too many words, we've got nothing new, we copy everyone else, that new song is shit, blah blah blah.

The haters win.  I'm not bothering any more.  There's plenty who will keep trying, but the majority of fans at Ashton Gate don't seem to give a shit.  So I'm gonna join the majority and just be a bit-part in this club and let it continue to be a place of a placid support base that are happy to let their bellies be tickled by the corporates.  So much for everyone who says "against modern football", and "we'd never let that happen here".  The majority have shown this week that they are happy with how "modern football" is being run at our club, so I'm pissing in the wind.

Bristol Sport have missed a trick here.  The best 'product' they've produced in decades and they are trying to cash in on it straight away by robbing the poor to provide a place for the rich.

Good luck to everyone who wants to continue the fight against this, and to those who want to continue to bring atmosphere to our placid place.

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1 minute ago, One Dickie Rooks said:

It's a business at the end of the day.

No. First and foremost it's a football club. Or it used to be.

@Harry don't let the bastards get you down, whoever they may be. S82 and your fellow fans in the various 'singing section' locations around the ground over the last few years have been one of the few sparks of vibrancy, colour and passion at Ashton Gate.

Whether there is a walkout or any other form of protest - or not - tomorrow is not the most important thing. The most important thing is continuing to fight for your principles, what you consider to be the values that your club ought to embody.

Walk away and the grey suits have won.

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6 minutes ago, Harry said:

Well I have to say I am very disappointed to have to post this.

I posted this morning suggesting a walkout on Saturday in order to demonstrate to Bristol Sport that us Bristol City fans were a different breed and we would not take price hikes to the most vulnerable in our fanbase lightly.  I always thought that we were different.  Heard so many times that "oh that wouldn't happen at City" and "we wouldn't stand for that" when there have been stories of corporate greed and fans being taken for a ride at other clubs.

From the reaction my suggestion has received, it appears I have completely misjudged our fans.  I thought there would be a strong weight of opinion against the indiscriminate price rises for kids, the elderly and the disabled.  I thought that we would all stand up for each other, have each others backs, and stick up for those in our fanbase who were being edged out in favour of corporate money, glory supporters and greed.

I'm sad to say that I was very wrong.  It appears as if there are about 30 or 40 people who seem really behind it, which let's face it is a shit protest.  It seems most of our fans are too keen to not upset the players and ruin our (fading) premiership dream, rather than stick up for their fellow supporters who are having their matchday experience nullified by the decisions made.  I don't mind other people disagreeing with me on this, but I have received a torrent of abuse today for trying to stick up for others (on all forms of media, not just on here).  I'm not in it for that.  I thought I was helping others, but it seems I'm causing all sorts of division and hatred.

As a result, I am not going to suggest to anyone that they walk out in protest this week.  You can all carry on doing whatever you want to do and ignore the bigger picture.  That's your right.

Over the years I have been someone who has tried to bring as much atmosphere to Ashton Gate as possible.  I have been active in support of this club and trying to improve the colour, atmosphere and general experience.  It seems all of that is completely futile.  After the abuse received today I'm not going to bother any more.  I will continue to support my team for the rest of this season, in body, but not in voice.  I've had to put up with the following over the years :
You think you're a superfan, why do you sing that shit song, why don't you sing this, the atmosphere is shit, S82 is shit, you sing too fast, you sing too slow, that song has too many words, we've got nothing new, we copy everyone else, that new song is shit, blah blah blah.

The haters win.  I'm not bothering any more.  There's plenty who will keep trying, but the majority of fans at Ashton Gate don't seem to give a shit.  So I'm gonna join the majority and just be a bit-part in this club and let it continue to be a place of a placid support base that are happy to let their bellies be tickled by the corporates.  So much for everyone who says "against modern football", and "we'd never let that happen here".  The majority have shown this week that they are happy with how "modern football" is being run at our club, so I'm pissing in the wind.

Bristol Sport have missed a trick here.  The best 'product' they've produced in decades and they are trying to cash in on it straight away by robbing the poor to provide a place for the rich.

Good luck to everyone who wants to continue the fight against this, and to those who want to continue to bring atmosphere to our placid place.

The intention is fabulous, but i think that actual idea of a walkout is, with no offence meant, half-arsed. Popping out early for a pint just doesn't seem much of a statement, especially given the nature of what is at stake. There are still plenty of home games left to gauge public opinion and coordinate a proper plan of protest - tomorrow isn't the be all and end all and i wouldn't be so discouraged by the initial feedback. 

Don't lose heart. Good luck.  

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@Harry I don't know you other than through your posts on here.  From those posts I see you as a man who has principles, conviction and the capacity to follow through on what he says he will do.  Those are valuable and admirable attributes.  Your efforts to organise S82 and to create an atmosphere are appreciated by some, including me.  I'm only an occasional visitor to AG but when I do visit it brings a smile to my face to see at least one corner of the stadium supporting the team in a vocal way.

Today has clearly been tough for you.  You stood up and put your head above the parapet, others have then shot you down from the safety of their keyboards.  If that means that you retreat today, re-calibrate and re-assess then so be it.  But please, please don't stop completely.  Maybe tomorrow has failed but there is always another tomorrow.  The club needs guys like you just as much as it needs blokes who can cough up £10,000 a year for a box.  In fact it probably needs you more.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win - Gandhi

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7 minutes ago, One Dickie Rooks said:

It's a business at the end of the day.

Fifteen years ago, I would have agreed with you Dickie.

However, when you have to give up a career to become a full-time carer and look after a very sick wife and bring up an infant, you start to see life in a totally new way. It's no longer about me, it's about someone else.

Yes Dickie, I agree with you that it is about business.  I used to train people on how to look after your finances and plan for your future! However, money isn't everything. A successful salesperson  will tell you that "We're in the people business."  If you don't look after your people your business won't look after you. 

I've never voted Labour, but at least they used to realise people come first. In my case, my family come and will continue to come first. If I still lived in Nailsea, I could no longer support BCFC on my own or take my now teenage son because of the price of admission. It's my loss but the board are losing out too with their version of business strategy.

Well done Harry for trying to represent the few disabled and the many families. It saddens me that those who left sickening comments can't see the truth which is that sometimes you have to think of others. 

To those who posted comments that they can afford and have already bought a new ST, that's great. Not a problem with that but I admire those who already have but still wanted to support any protest. 

Finally, for what it's worth, I admire Steve (and Maggie- for every great man there's an even more amazed wife) Lansdown. I've not one single bone to pick with them. What they've done for BCFC is beyond comprehension at times. Here's that word again.....however, I think his board has got it horribly wrong this time.

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40 minutes ago, Harry said:

Well I have to say I am very disappointed to have to post this.

I posted this morning suggesting a walkout on Saturday in order to demonstrate to Bristol Sport that us Bristol City fans were a different breed and we would not take price hikes to the most vulnerable in our fanbase lightly.  I always thought that we were different.  Heard so many times that "oh that wouldn't happen at City" and "we wouldn't stand for that" when there have been stories of corporate greed and fans being taken for a ride at other clubs.

From the reaction my suggestion has received, it appears I have completely misjudged our fans.  I thought there would be a strong weight of opinion against the indiscriminate price rises for kids, the elderly and the disabled.  I thought that we would all stand up for each other, have each others backs, and stick up for those in our fanbase who were being edged out in favour of corporate money, glory supporters and greed.

I'm sad to say that I was very wrong.  It appears as if there are about 30 or 40 people who seem really behind it, which let's face it is a shit protest.  It seems most of our fans are too keen to not upset the players and ruin our (fading) premiership dream, rather than stick up for their fellow supporters who are having their matchday experience nullified by the decisions made.  I don't mind other people disagreeing with me on this, but I have received a torrent of abuse today for trying to stick up for others (on all forms of media, not just on here).  I'm not in it for that.  I thought I was helping others, but it seems I'm causing all sorts of division and hatred.

As a result, I am not going to suggest to anyone that they walk out in protest this week.  You can all carry on doing whatever you want to do and ignore the bigger picture.  That's your right.

Over the years I have been someone who has tried to bring as much atmosphere to Ashton Gate as possible.  I have been active in support of this club and trying to improve the colour, atmosphere and general experience.  It seems all of that is completely futile.  After the abuse received today I'm not going to bother any more.  I will continue to support my team for the rest of this season, in body, but not in voice.  I've had to put up with the following over the years :
You think you're a superfan, why do you sing that shit song, why don't you sing this, the atmosphere is shit, S82 is shit, you sing too fast, you sing too slow, that song has too many words, we've got nothing new, we copy everyone else, that new song is shit, blah blah blah.

The haters win.  I'm not bothering any more.  There's plenty who will keep trying, but the majority of fans at Ashton Gate don't seem to give a shit.  So I'm gonna join the majority and just be a bit-part in this club and let it continue to be a place of a placid support base that are happy to let their bellies be tickled by the corporates.  So much for everyone who says "against modern football", and "we'd never let that happen here".  The majority have shown this week that they are happy with how "modern football" is being run at our club, so I'm pissing in the wind.

Bristol Sport have missed a trick here.  The best 'product' they've produced in decades and they are trying to cash in on it straight away by robbing the poor to provide a place for the rich.

Good luck to everyone who wants to continue the fight against this, and to those who want to continue to bring atmosphere to our placid place.

Bitterly disappointed in our fan base for the abuse you’ve received and for accepting this ludicrous ride the club are taking us all on. I hope next year, when they will probably hike the prices again and for more people this time, we’ll see what people’s reactions are.

Very frustrated with our fans today but we move on. 

Don’t worry Jack, I’m alright.

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46 minutes ago, Harry said:

Well I have to say I am very disappointed to have to post this.

I posted this morning suggesting a walkout on Saturday in order to demonstrate to Bristol Sport that us Bristol City fans were a different breed and we would not take price hikes to the most vulnerable in our fanbase lightly.  I always thought that we were different.  Heard so many times that "oh that wouldn't happen at City" and "we wouldn't stand for that" when there have been stories of corporate greed and fans being taken for a ride at other clubs.

From the reaction my suggestion has received, it appears I have completely misjudged our fans.  I thought there would be a strong weight of opinion against the indiscriminate price rises for kids, the elderly and the disabled.  I thought that we would all stand up for each other, have each others backs, and stick up for those in our fanbase who were being edged out in favour of corporate money, glory supporters and greed.

I'm sad to say that I was very wrong.  It appears as if there are about 30 or 40 people who seem really behind it, which let's face it is a shit protest.  It seems most of our fans are too keen to not upset the players and ruin our (fading) premiership dream, rather than stick up for their fellow supporters who are having their matchday experience nullified by the decisions made.  I don't mind other people disagreeing with me on this, but I have received a torrent of abuse today for trying to stick up for others (on all forms of media, not just on here).  I'm not in it for that.  I thought I was helping others, but it seems I'm causing all sorts of division and hatred.

As a result, I am not going to suggest to anyone that they walk out in protest this week.  You can all carry on doing whatever you want to do and ignore the bigger picture.  That's your right.

Over the years I have been someone who has tried to bring as much atmosphere to Ashton Gate as possible.  I have been active in support of this club and trying to improve the colour, atmosphere and general experience.  It seems all of that is completely futile.  After the abuse received today I'm not going to bother any more.  I will continue to support my team for the rest of this season, in body, but not in voice.  I've had to put up with the following over the years :
You think you're a superfan, why do you sing that shit song, why don't you sing this, the atmosphere is shit, S82 is shit, you sing too fast, you sing too slow, that song has too many words, we've got nothing new, we copy everyone else, that new song is shit, blah blah blah.

The haters win.  I'm not bothering any more.  There's plenty who will keep trying, but the majority of fans at Ashton Gate don't seem to give a shit.  So I'm gonna join the majority and just be a bit-part in this club and let it continue to be a place of a placid support base that are happy to let their bellies be tickled by the corporates.  So much for everyone who says "against modern football", and "we'd never let that happen here".  The majority have shown this week that they are happy with how "modern football" is being run at our club, so I'm pissing in the wind.

Bristol Sport have missed a trick here.  The best 'product' they've produced in decades and they are trying to cash in on it straight away by robbing the poor to provide a place for the rich.

Good luck to everyone who wants to continue the fight against this, and to those who want to continue to bring atmosphere to our placid place.

The season ticket prices are still averagely priced. Lansdown is adamant on making this club self efficient. 

We're 3 points off the play offs, our best chance of the ultimate goal in years, and you wanna start walkouts, rather than support your team. 

I fully appreciate your efforts in S82, you boys are legends. But we need you more then ever right now, not f*cking walking out. It's embarrassing, considering the circumstances. 

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The Board are on a sticky wicket with what they've done. They are gambling that City will be a Premier League club by end of next season latest. If that happens, you there won't be any problems in filling the stadium all season. 

But what they are not considering is that there are two scenarios that will mess up their plan.

First is that we only spend one season up there and then are unable to stabilise again in the Championship like Sunderland and possibly Hull, this year. 

The second scenario that nobody even considers possible it seems, as is that we cannot turn around this dreadful run of form by the start of next season and end up in League One. 

In both cases there will be seats aplenty for anyone the club can persuade to shell out for. I hear most of you say it cannot happen. Oh yes it can. Remember 1980 to 1983!

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13 minutes ago, RedNight said:

The season ticket prices are still averagely priced. Lansdown is adamant on making this club self efficient. 

We're 3 points off the play offs, our best chance of the ultimate goal in years, and you wanna start walkouts, rather than support your team. 

I fully appreciate your efforts in S82, you boys are legends. But we need you more then ever right now, not f*cking walking out. It's embarrassing, considering the circumstances. 

It's not 'rather than support your team'. It's not a binary choice. Read half a post of Harry's - this month, this year, this decade, whenever - you'll know he is totally supportive of the team. I'm sure you can imagine he, and anyone else with him, chooses this with a heavy heart. There are a variety of options to catch the Suits' attention, not all options are just (righteous) in your/my/our eyes. He's doing what he thinks might work for the fans, for the long-term of the club, not against the players. S82 can respond to being needed right now and protest. Wouldn't it be effective to sing and make noise and colour for 29 mins, then walk out, then sing and make noise and colour again after? This is not about starting walkouts - this is, for many, about being pushed towards the edge of being committed to the club. You can support the team and protest. They're not mutually exclusive. I'm with Harry on this one (although I respect everyone's right to their own opinion).

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1 hour ago, Blagdon red said:

No. First and foremost it's a football club. Or it used to be.

@Harry don't let the bastards get you down, whoever they may be. S82 and your fellow fans in the various 'singing section' locations around the ground over the last few years have been one of the few sparks of vibrancy, colour and passion at Ashton Gate.

100% agree.

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Just to make clear. My stance on this is my own, and does not represent everyone associated with S82. 

If you disagree with anything I say it’s me you disagree with. I am not representing S82 with this stance. 

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I don’t think a walkout is the answer and don’t blame people for not being behind it. Hit the club where it hurts by not renewing, not attending and if you do attend, not purchasing anything from the club shop etc. If you’re attending, support the team. If it was a live game on sky maybe a walkout would bring some attention but I think generally it would be quite easily ignored by the club if they are hellbent on increasing ticket prices.

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Unfortunately the term "Football Supporters" is long and dead, and has been for many years. We're simply now consumers, who are happy to pay whatever price is shown to us. Football is a corporate business, and we're only labelled supporters when it suits the clubs status quo. @Harry has it spot on.

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3 minutes ago, Harry said:

Just to make clear. My stance on this is my own, and does not represent everyone associated with S82. 

If you disagree with anything I say it’s me you disagree with. I am not representing S82 with this stance. 

Chin up mate, from my point of view and having sat next to you on some brilliant matches previously it is a shame that your enthusiasm in supporting the club will be dampened.

as for those who have abused you personally most of whom will not even know you what a bunch of *****

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I feared that any walkout would fail - or be an embarrassing non-event.

Previous walkouts have all gone down this road.  Partly because not everyone has agreed on the cause, but largely because if you've paid to watch the game and invested the effort in getting to the Gate - which is considerable in some cases - you don't want to miss the action.

Also, it is still an important match. We're trying to claw our way back into the play-offs and we realistically have to win tomorrow to have even a half chance.

Does this mean I think the club's attitude was right and we should all shut up about the price rises or give up watching a club many of us have followed since childhood?

SHIT NO!

I'm all in favour of some sort of protest, but not during the playing time of the match.

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On reading this thread, I do feel it is time for everyone to take a deep breath. It makes me angry when I hear City supporters arguing and insulting each other.

Five years ago, when my brother Ian passed away lots of parts of the Bristol City family showed their support for me and my family. Something I will never forget.

We all want the same thing, an enjoyable, affordable and hopefully winning match day experience watching our team.

The proposed “Fans funding Fans of the Future” is a great initiative, which will enable, those who feel their should have been an across the board increase to contribute and aid those who feel priced out.

This is an opportunity to pull everyone together to enhance our Club for now and the years to come.

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

Well I have to say I am very disappointed to have to post this.

I posted this morning suggesting a walkout on Saturday in order to demonstrate to Bristol Sport that us Bristol City fans were a different breed and we would not take price hikes to the most vulnerable in our fanbase lightly.  I always thought that we were different.  Heard so many times that "oh that wouldn't happen at City" and "we wouldn't stand for that" when there have been stories of corporate greed and fans being taken for a ride at other clubs.

From the reaction my suggestion has received, it appears I have completely misjudged our fans.  I thought there would be a strong weight of opinion against the indiscriminate price rises for kids, the elderly and the disabled.  I thought that we would all stand up for each other, have each others backs, and stick up for those in our fanbase who were being edged out in favour of corporate money, glory supporters and greed.

I'm sad to say that I was very wrong.  It appears as if there are about 30 or 40 people who seem really behind it, which let's face it is a shit protest.  It seems most of our fans are too keen to not upset the players and ruin our (fading) premiership dream, rather than stick up for their fellow supporters who are having their matchday experience nullified by the decisions made.  I don't mind other people disagreeing with me on this, but I have received a torrent of abuse today for trying to stick up for others (on all forms of media, not just on here).  I'm not in it for that.  I thought I was helping others, but it seems I'm causing all sorts of division and hatred.

As a result, I am not going to suggest to anyone that they walk out in protest this week.  You can all carry on doing whatever you want to do and ignore the bigger picture.  That's your right.

Over the years I have been someone who has tried to bring as much atmosphere to Ashton Gate as possible.  I have been active in support of this club and trying to improve the colour, atmosphere and general experience.  It seems all of that is completely futile.  After the abuse received today I'm not going to bother any more.  I will continue to support my team for the rest of this season, in body, but not in voice.  I've had to put up with the following over the years :
You think you're a superfan, why do you sing that shit song, why don't you sing this, the atmosphere is shit, S82 is shit, you sing too fast, you sing too slow, that song has too many words, we've got nothing new, we copy everyone else, that new song is shit, blah blah blah.

The haters win.  I'm not bothering any more.  There's plenty who will keep trying, but the majority of fans at Ashton Gate don't seem to give a shit.  So I'm gonna join the majority and just be a bit-part in this club and let it continue to be a place of a placid support base that are happy to let their bellies be tickled by the corporates.  So much for everyone who says "against modern football", and "we'd never let that happen here".  The majority have shown this week that they are happy with how "modern football" is being run at our club, so I'm pissing in the wind.

Bristol Sport have missed a trick here.  The best 'product' they've produced in decades and they are trying to cash in on it straight away by robbing the poor to provide a place for the rich.

Good luck to everyone who wants to continue the fight against this, and to those who want to continue to bring atmosphere to our placid place.

Unlucky nice try its a case of f.......you im alright jack  play offs my ass

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I really hope something can be sorted, protest wise, that gets a good majority on board. I don’t know what that might be but hopefully someone will.

As for some of the replies to Harry on here and Facebook, well you should be ashamed of yourselves. If you can’t get your point of view over without being a k**b then don’t comment. Harry has done so much for us supporters and certainly doesn’t deserve some of the treatment he’s had. 

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

Well I have to say I am very disappointed to have to post this.

I posted this morning suggesting a walkout on Saturday in order to demonstrate to Bristol Sport that us Bristol City fans were a different breed and we would not take price hikes to the most vulnerable in our fanbase lightly.  I always thought that we were different.  Heard so many times that "oh that wouldn't happen at City" and "we wouldn't stand for that" when there have been stories of corporate greed and fans being taken for a ride at other clubs.

From the reaction my suggestion has received, it appears I have completely misjudged our fans.  I thought there would be a strong weight of opinion against the indiscriminate price rises for kids, the elderly and the disabled.  I thought that we would all stand up for each other, have each others backs, and stick up for those in our fanbase who were being edged out in favour of corporate money, glory supporters and greed.

I'm sad to say that I was very wrong.  It appears as if there are about 30 or 40 people who seem really behind it, which let's face it is a shit protest.  It seems most of our fans are too keen to not upset the players and ruin our (fading) premiership dream, rather than stick up for their fellow supporters who are having their matchday experience nullified by the decisions made.  I don't mind other people disagreeing with me on this, but I have received a torrent of abuse today for trying to stick up for others (on all forms of media, not just on here).  I'm not in it for that.  I thought I was helping others, but it seems I'm causing all sorts of division and hatred.

As a result, I am not going to suggest to anyone that they walk out in protest this week.  You can all carry on doing whatever you want to do and ignore the bigger picture.  That's your right.

Over the years I have been someone who has tried to bring as much atmosphere to Ashton Gate as possible.  I have been active in support of this club and trying to improve the colour, atmosphere and general experience.  It seems all of that is completely futile.  After the abuse received today I'm not going to bother any more.  I will continue to support my team for the rest of this season, in body, but not in voice.  I've had to put up with the following over the years :
You think you're a superfan, why do you sing that shit song, why don't you sing this, the atmosphere is shit, S82 is shit, you sing too fast, you sing too slow, that song has too many words, we've got nothing new, we copy everyone else, that new song is shit, blah blah blah.

The haters win.  I'm not bothering any more.  There's plenty who will keep trying, but the majority of fans at Ashton Gate don't seem to give a shit.  So I'm gonna join the majority and just be a bit-part in this club and let it continue to be a place of a placid support base that are happy to let their bellies be tickled by the corporates.  So much for everyone who says "against modern football", and "we'd never let that happen here".  The majority have shown this week that they are happy with how "modern football" is being run at our club, so I'm pissing in the wind.

Bristol Sport have missed a trick here.  The best 'product' they've produced in decades and they are trying to cash in on it straight away by robbing the poor to provide a place for the rich.

Good luck to everyone who wants to continue the fight against this, and to those who want to continue to bring atmosphere to our placid place.

Very sorry about the abuse you have been receiving by the so called city fans. It has made me feel really angry at the end of the day you were just trying to help others. 

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I’m not against the people who think there needs to be some kind of protest.

Probably because I’m one of the lucky ones it’s not affected and I appreciate it could be problematic for a lot of our fan base,  just I don’t think it would of been the correct type of protest in what is one of our best season’s for years, especially what’s (still) achievable at the end of the season which could be huge for all of us! 

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