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Govt Safe Standing Petition (Merged)


JackMarch

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On 12/04/2018 at 01:10, Blagdon red said:

This petition added 8,000 signatures in 6 hours on Wednesday evening, spurred on by remarks form the sports minister, who called fans who want safe standing a "vocal minority" and said she wants fans to be forced to sit down. I'm afraid I wasn't very complimentary about her in this Telegraph article.

Having hit 10k, the government now has to make a formal response. When it hits 100k, they have to consider the matter for a debate.

So please do sign the petition and share the link widely! Ta!

 

Now over 35,000, but missing my support as I am not a UK citizen and, thus. ineligible to vote.

I see you are still reading the DT, Jon, but are you still doing their crosswords?

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I work with the 2 MPs closest to my business and I cannot stress enough how much impact simply emailing them has. If 10 plus people email about the same subject it does get on there radar. 

It doesnt need to be thousands in the street 

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3 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Now over 35,000, but missing my support as I am not a UK citizen and, thus. ineligible to vote.

I see you are still reading the DT, Jon, but are you still doing their crosswords?

Only when I visit my mother! Don't buy a paper these days, but help her with the crossword on my visits.

Now over 38,700 signatures on the petition.

Please sign and share!

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4 hours ago, 054123 said:

I work with the 2 MPs closest to my business and I cannot stress enough how much impact simply emailing them has. If 10 plus people email about the same subject it does get on there radar. 

It doesnt need to be thousands in the street 

Good point ... and when you sign the petition there is an option to let you send a message to your MP.

So please sign and share (now over 40,600!)

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5 hours ago, 054123 said:

I work with the 2 MPs closest to my business and I cannot stress enough how much impact simply emailing them has. If 10 plus people email about the same subject it does get on there radar. 

It doesnt need to be thousands in the street 

Have emailed my MP.  This is what I said if anyone wants to copy it, you'll need to change the bit in blue if your MP isn't Labour:

Dear [NAME OF YOUR MP], MP,
 
I am writing as your constituent and invite you to consider supporting the following petition which requests that Parliament consider changing the law in order to allow football clubs in the top two tiers of English football to install facilities that allow safe standing.
 
 
Recently the Sports Minister, Tracey Couch, rejected an application from West Bromwich Albion to install safe standing at their ground. Since that decision the Football Safety Officers Association has said the following:
 
West Bromwich Albion’s bid to trial a safe-standing section in the Smethwick End was submitted after lengthy research across Europe and also at Celtic, where similar systems are already working successfully. The pilot would have provided the perfect opportunity to gather much-needed data and feedback with the view of possibly introducing similar systems at grounds across England and Wales in future.

Safety Officers and Club Directors across the country are subject to legislative requirements but this is one legislation that should be given careful consideration. However we move forward in future, the safety of spectators must always remain paramount but it seems that as we strive to improve standards of safety already achieved at our grounds, the Government is then choosing to ignore what may prove to be a safer alternative to standing in seated areas."

As an MP who undoubtedly counts many football fans as constituents, I ask that you discuss this matter with the leader of your party, who is known to be a football fan himself, and seek to have this matter discussed by Parliament regardless of whether the above petition reaches the 100,000 threshold or not.

Thank you for your time.

Yours sincerely,

[YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS AND TELEPHONE NUMBER]

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1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

Have emailed my MP.  This is what I said if anyone wants to copy it, you'll need to change the bit in blue if your MP isn't Labour:

Dear [NAME OF YOUR MP], MP,
 
I am writing as your constituent and invite you to consider supporting the following petition which requests that Parliament consider changing the law in order to allow football clubs in the top two tiers of English football to install facilities that allow safe standing.
 
 
Recently the Sports Minister, Tracey Couch, rejected an application from West Bromwich Albion to install safe standing at their ground. Since that decision the Football Safety Officers Association has said the following:
 
West Bromwich Albion’s bid to trial a safe-standing section in the Smethwick End was submitted after lengthy research across Europe and also at Celtic, where similar systems are already working successfully. The pilot would have provided the perfect opportunity to gather much-needed data and feedback with the view of possibly introducing similar systems at grounds across England and Wales in future.

Safety Officers and Club Directors across the country are subject to legislative requirements but this is one legislation that should be given careful consideration. However we move forward in future, the safety of spectators must always remain paramount but it seems that as we strive to improve standards of safety already achieved at our grounds, the Government is then choosing to ignore what may prove to be a safer alternative to standing in seated areas."

As an MP who undoubtedly counts many football fans as constituents, I ask that you discuss this matter with the leader of your party, who is known to be a football fan himself, and seek to have this matter discussed by Parliament regardless of whether the above petition reaches the 100,000 threshold or not.

Thank you for your time.

Yours sincerely,

[YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS]

Find your MP here: https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/

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I have emailed the minister. This is what I said:

Dear Ms Crouch

I am writing to you in relation to your recent comments on West Bromwich Albion’s attempts to introduce rail seating at The Hawthorns.

For nine years I worked as Supporter Liaison Officer at Bristol City FC, until I stood down in 2016. I am now writing to you in a personal capacity. During that time I worked closely with the club, its supporters, the local Safety Advisory Group, the Police and local politicians to try and deal with some of the complex and often passionately expressed issues that can affect football clubs.

One of the issues that provoked the most debate during my time in post was that of persistent standing during matches. In an article in The Daily Telegraph (11th April) you are quoted as saying: “I get as many messages from people asking me to deal with persistent standing as I get from people asking me to introduce safe standing”.  

That was certainly my experience too. The main problems usually arose at away games where we had sold all our allocated tickets. Elderly and disabled supporters who were unable to stand for 90 minutes would complain about people standing in front of them and blocking their view. Those who insisted on their right to stand were often unsympathetic. If they did try and find an area at the rear of the stand where they could stand without obstructing someone’s view, they would often be told by stewards that they had to remain in their allocated seat. And so the same problems continued, week in and week out.

Like it or not, there is a significant minority of supporters who want to stand at football matches,  and continue to do so at every football ground in the country, including all-seater stadia where standing is theoretically banned. In a large scale act of civil disobedience, they ignore the rules which ban standing, and stand in areas which were designed to be sat in, and which provide a less-safe environment for those who choose to stand. This not only creates tension amongst supporters whose views are obstructed, but also creates problems for stewards and police officers who have the thankless task of trying to enforce unworkable ground regulations.

In the Telegraph article you are quoted as saying “There are regulations to deal with persistent standing. I would like to see them enforced”.  Unfortunately, when a hard line approach has been tried, it hasn’t worked. Ejections, banning orders and the threat of the removal of season tickets have all been tried. They may have worked in isolation, with certain individuals, but they clearly haven’t resolved the problem. Persistent standing remains an issue. Confronting it head on has not worked, and will not work in the future.  People want to stand at football matches, and however Draconian the methods used to stop them, they will continue to do so.

There is one blindingly obvious solution to this problem. Provide an area where those who wish to stand can do so in a safe, controlled environment. Rigidly enforce the rights of those who wish to remain seated in other areas of the ground by not allowing standing in seated areas.

Opposition to standing is often emotive. Those of us old enough to remember the Hillsborough disaster will be full aware of the tragedy which unfolded. A few years ago,  Bristol City installed some trial rail seating at Ashton Gate, which provoked considerable debate in the footballing and political communities. At that time,  I met with Trevor Hicks and Margaret Aspinall from the the Hillsborough Family Support Group. Both lost children in the disaster, and it was impossible not to be moved by the impact this had had on their lives. We were in complete agreement that such a situation should never be allowed to happen again. It was their view that any form of standing would still present an unacceptable risk. 

While having immense sympathy for their loss, and that of the other relatives, this is not a view shared by myself, or many other people who currently work in football stadia. In my opinion, it would be wrong to allow the sorrow we feel for the needless deaths of 96 people to cloud our objective judgment on what might be the best way forward.

The recent inquest into events at Hillsborough found poor stadium design and inadequate policing were at fault, and that supporters were ‘utterly blameless’. The Taylor report led to a necessary overhaul of safety standards at football grounds. The old crumbling terraces have gone, and there can be no going back to those days. But new rail seating has been proved to be safe. At massive stadia in Germany and at Celtic Park in Glasgow, thousands of fans stand in comfort and safety in a segregated, controlled environment.  Those who wish to remain seated in other parts of the ground still can. Many of the underlying tensions that previously existed between supporters, stewards and the police have been reduced as a result. The Football Safety Officers Association (not a body, in my experience, who would rush to make rash judgements when it comes to crowd safety) have supported West Bromwich Albion’s application for a trial of rail seating.

Next season’s EFL Championship could well include West Bromwich Albion (want to install safe standing but aren’t allowed), Brentford (should have got rid of their terracing by now but have been given an extension because they are building a new ground) and Shrewsbury (planning to install rail seating because they are currently a League One side). The situation is confusing and illogical. 

Allowing the trialling of rail seating at a major English ground is a pragmatic, safe, logical and obvious step in resolving what continues to be a serious issue at football grounds.  I believe it is the only workable solution. I urge you to reconsider your decision.

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1 hour ago, Blagdon red said:

@PHILINFRANCE Can you do me a favour? What are the French national supporters association saying here about safe standing trials?

Delighted.

In précis form, by paragraph ( à la @BigTone's condensed form).

For clarity, the statement has been issued by the ANS (the 'fans group') whilst the INS is a Government body (Ministry of Sport), more commonly involved in combatting hooliganism:

Re: Return of 'Safe Standing' for the 2018/2019 Season.

1. On 9 April, the INS, in the presence of the Minister of Sports, held a meeting to discuss the issue of 'Safe Standing' for next season.

2. The ANS rejoiced at the return of the principal of 'Safe Standing'. This decision is a major advance for football and demonstrates to all parties our ability to work together on other matters.

3. Upon conclusion of a 'study' report, due in July, and after choosing the clubs to trial this study, the procedure and regulations will be dealt with locally on a case by case basis.

4. In this respect, our organisation (ANS/fans group) calls for vigilance concerning the time scale (July seems late; will leave a very short time scale between the installation of 'Safe Seating' and the start of the 2018/2019 season; certain clubs have already completed their file and are ready to present this (to the INS) in order to commence work.

5. Moreover, we do not understand why an increase in capacity has been refused as a matter of principle before even receiving the study report. It is about 'Safe Standing' and respecting local/national laws and regulations. Consequently, all parties concerned should adapt, on a case by case basis, stand capacities bearing in mind local laws/regulations etc. Naturally, nobody is suggesting an increase in capacity should this pose the slightest risk to the stadium and/or supporters. 

I trust this helps, and, by the way, I have never forgotten your lack of thanks for the last 'favour' I did for you; solving one of your crossword clues - I forget the exact wording of the clue, but it would have been something along the lines of 'a canoe that goes both ways', and, back in those days, there would have been no sexual inuendo! 

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54 minutes ago, finbarr_in_z said:

Good stuff - it's about time Corbyn came out in favour of this. He did, after all, vote in 1989 against the bill that as an Act now gives the government the power to ban standing.

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2 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Delighted.

In précis form, by paragraph ( à la @BigTone's condensed form).

For clarity, the statement has been issued by the ANS (the 'fans group') whilst the INS is a Government body (Ministry of Sport), more commonly involved in combatting hooliganism:

Re: Return of 'Safe Standing' for the 2018/2019 Season.

1. On 9 April, the INS, in the presence of the Minister of Sports, held a meeting to discuss the issue of 'Safe Standing' for next season.

2. The ANS rejoiced at the return of the principal of 'Safe Standing'. This decision is a major advance for football and demonstrates to all parties our ability to work together on other matters.

3. Upon conclusion of a 'study' report, due in July, and after choosing the clubs to trial this study, the procedure and regulations will be dealt with locally on a case by case basis.

4. In this respect, our organisation (ANS/fans group) calls for vigilance concerning the time scale (July seems late; will leave a very short time scale between the installation of 'Safe Seating' and the start of the 2018/2019 season; certain clubs have already completed their file and are ready to present this (to the INS) in order to commence work.

5. Moreover, we do not understand why an increase in capacity has been refused as a matter of principle before even receiving the study report. It is about 'Safe Standing' and respecting local/national laws and regulations. Consequently, all parties concerned should adapt, on a case by case basis, stand capacities bearing in mind local lwas/regulations etc. Naturally, nobody is suggesting an increase in capacity should this pose the slightest risk to the stadium and/or supporters. 

I trust this helps, and, by the way, I have never forgotten your lack of thanks for the last 'favour' I did for you; solving one of your crossword clues - I forget the exact wording of the clue, but it would have been something along the lines of 'a canoe that goes both ways', and, back in those days, there would have been no sexual inuendo! 

Well, "mercy buckets" this time! That's all very good stuff and in stark contrast to our own government, which clearly still likes to control everything from the centre, rather than delegate to the professionals on the ground.

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27 minutes ago, Dave L said:

I have emailed the minister. This is what I said:

Dear Ms Crouch

I am writing to you in relation to your recent comments on West Bromwich Albion’s attempts to introduce rail seating at The Hawthorns.

For nine years I worked as Supporter Liaison Officer at Bristol City FC, until I stood down in 2016. I am now writing to you in a personal capacity. During that time I worked closely with the club, its supporters, the local Safety Advisory Group, the Police and local politicians to try and deal with some of the complex and often passionately expressed issues that can affect football clubs.

One of the issues that provoked the most debate during my time in post was that of persistent standing during matches. In an article in The Daily Telegraph (11th April) you are quoted as saying: “I get as many messages from people asking me to deal with persistent standing as I get from people asking me to introduce safe standing”.  

That was certainly my experience too. The main problems usually arose at away games where we had sold all our allocated tickets. Elderly and disabled supporters who were unable to stand for 90 minutes would complain about people standing in front of them and blocking their view. Those who insisted on their right to stand were often unsympathetic. If they did try and find an area at the rear of the stand where they could stand without obstructing someone’s view, they would often be told by stewards that they had to remain in their allocated seat. And so the same problems continued, week in and week out.

Like it or not, there is a significant minority of supporters who want to stand at football matches,  and continue to do so at every football ground in the country, including all-seater stadia where standing is theoretically banned. In a large scale act of civil disobedience, they ignore the rules which ban standing, and stand in areas which were designed to be sat in, and which provide a less-safe environment for those who choose to stand. This not only creates tension amongst supporters whose views are obstructed, but also creates problems for stewards and police officers who have the thankless task of trying to enforce unworkable ground regulations.

In the Telegraph article you are quoted as saying “There are regulations to deal with persistent standing. I would like to see them enforced”.  Unfortunately, when a hard line approach has been tried, it hasn’t worked. Ejections, banning orders and the threat of the removal of season tickets have all been tried. They may have worked in isolation, with certain individuals, but they clearly haven’t resolved the problem. Persistent standing remains an issue. Confronting it head on has not worked, and will not work in the future.  People want to stand at football matches, and however Draconian the methods used to stop them, they will continue to do so.

There is one blindingly obvious solution to this problem. Provide an area where those who wish to stand can do so in a safe, controlled environment. Rigidly enforce the rights of those who wish to remain seated in other areas of the ground by not allowing standing in seated areas.

Opposition to standing is often emotive. Those of us old enough to remember the Hillsborough disaster will be full aware of the tragedy which unfolded. A few years ago,  Bristol City installed some trial rail seating at Ashton Gate, which provoked considerable debate in the footballing and political communities. At that time,  I met with Trevor Hicks and Margaret Aspinall from the the Hillsborough Family Support Group. Both lost children in the disaster, and it was impossible not to be moved by the impact this had had on their lives. We were in complete agreement that such a situation should never be allowed to happen again. It was their view that any form of standing would still present an unacceptable risk. 

While having immense sympathy for their loss, and that of the other relatives, this is not a view shared by myself, or many other people who currently work in football stadia. In my opinion, it would be wrong to allow the sorrow we feel for the needless deaths of 96 people to cloud our objective judgment on what might be the best way forward.

The recent inquest into events at Hillsborough found poor stadium design and inadequate policing were at fault, and that supporters were ‘utterly blameless’. The Taylor report led to a necessary overhaul of safety standards at football grounds. The old crumbling terraces have gone, and there can be no going back to those days. But new rail seating has been proved to be safe. At massive stadia in Germany and at Celtic Park in Glasgow, thousands of fans stand in comfort and safety in a segregated, controlled environment.  Those who wish to remain seated in other parts of the ground still can. Many of the underlying tensions that previously existed between supporters, stewards and the police have been reduced as a result. The Football Safety Officers Association (not a body, in my experience, who would rush to make rash judgements when it comes to crowd safety) have supported West Bromwich Albion’s application for a trial of rail seating.

Next season’s EFL Championship could well include West Bromwich Albion (want to install safe standing but aren’t allowed), Brentford (should have got rid of their terracing by now but have been given an extension because they are building a new ground) and Shrewsbury (planning to install rail seating because they are currently a League One side). The situation is confusing and illogical. 

Allowing the trialling of rail seating at a major English ground is a pragmatic, safe, logical and obvious step in resolving what continues to be a serious issue at football grounds.  I believe it is the only workable solution. I urge you to reconsider your decision.

Excellent letter, Dave. Do let me know is you receive anything other than a template response. Cheers!

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20 hours ago, 054123 said:

Hills borough is a far more relevant example of police corruption and government corruption than anything to do with fans. 

Hillsborough was the result of authorities being so obsessed with controlling football fans that they ignored their safety. Which also seems to be the approach of the current minister. Not that standing is in itself particularly dangerous, but it must be less dangerous in a section specifically designed for standing than one intended for sitting.

If there had been no fences at the front of the terrace and no pens (or if the number able to enter each pen was controlled) it is very likely that no-one would have died at Hillsborough.

The incompetence of the police on the day and the corruption after the event are, of course, despicable. But Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen because of the unsafe design of grounds at that time.

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1 hour ago, finbarr_in_z said:

Signing rate has slowed down. Bumping to keep this in people's mind.......

It's matchday! People are out and about.

There is local and national press coverage on the way over the next 24-48 hours. That will add a spike.

But for all City fans not at Boro, how better to while away a couple of minutes before kick-off than by supporting this important issue. Whether you like to stand or not, if you don't want AG and other grounds to become libraries and you'd like fans who stand made safer, please sign this petition now.

500 sigs needed to hit 50k!

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Another way of helping with this, apart from signing it yourself, would be to try to get any players (past or present) or any celebrity fans to share it on social media.

Who do you know with a large following?

Cheers! Here's the link again. Now nearing 51k.

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