Awful

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, ZiderEyed said:

Give us a name then.

Psssssssst

And Mums the word eh

 

[Chivs]

48 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Give us a name then.

Lucic. Giefer - there's two.

I remember watching Lucic tippy-tappy the ball to/from Magnusson and then 5 yard pass to Flint...  I guess it was round about then that Johnson realised he had a challenge on his hands.

By the way, Hegeler is key to all this.

[Trueredsupporter]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

What you are saying is quite correct.

However...finding GK's in this country that have the technical ability to play as a good quality Championship 'sweeper' are pretty much nil.

Then take into the fact the quality of defenders that are technically good enough to receive a pass from him under pressure...then you have to start looking abroad or into the Prem.

We saw it with Geifer...he was used to playing football from the back....obviously used to doing that at Munich.

However...he would lay a pass off to the full backs who would immediately come under pressure and not be able to deal with it.

Hegeler can play out from the back...we've seen this. But is he good enough as a solid Championship first pick CB over a season?

Finding a balance is hard in this league.

I'd love to see the football we at are talking about...but under intense pressure at this level, we'd have to be looking at players outside of our budget imo.

 

3 hours ago, spudski said:

It is one of my biggest bugbears with keepers.

Stopping shots and commanding a box is one thing...but I'm really disappointed with the quality of basic kicking and passing skills by some Keepers in this leagues, including FF.

It's is beyond dire...and something as a manager would do my head in.

How is it possible to be a professional footballer at this level and have such poor technical football qualities?

Keeper wise what would you be looking to do??

[Chairman Mao]

On 14/04/2018 at 17:20, CotswoldRed said:

I just wish LJ and SL weren't bosom buddies. There might be a bit more objectivity then.

He would've been sacked after Reading, last season. 

[Three Lions]

17 hours ago, Trueredsupporte said:

 

Keeper wise what would you be looking to do??

Mix it up. Roll it out a lot more for a start. 

18 hours ago, Chivs said:

Lucic. Giefer - there's two.

I remember watching Lucic tippy-tappy the ball to/from Magnusson and then 5 yard pass to Flint...  I guess it was round about then that Johnson realised he had a challenge on his hands.

By the way, Hegeler is key to all this.

What is it you see in Lucics game?

[AshtonGreat]

On 14/04/2018 at 17:40, Londoner said:

Maybe lj has a new philosophy

Sadly, LJ is more like Pluto than Plato

[Ivorguy]

23 hours ago, spudski said:

What you are saying is quite correct.

However...finding GK's in this country that have the technical ability to play as a good quality Championship 'sweeper' are pretty much nil.

Then take into the fact the quality of defenders that are technically good enough to receive a pass from him under pressure...then you have to start looking abroad or into the Prem.

We saw it with Geifer...he was used to playing football from the back....obviously used to doing that at Munich.

However...he would lay a pass off to the full backs who would immediately come under pressure and not be able to deal with it.

Hegeler can play out from the back...we've seen this. But is he good enough as a solid Championship first pick CB over a season?

Finding a balance is hard in this league.

I'd love to see the football we at are talking about...but under intense pressure at this level, we'd have to be looking at players outside of our budget imo.

I feel it is more of a question of finding and paying for good coaches to improve and to organise the players we can afford.  A case in point is Fielding, surely we could afford a decent goalkeeping coach to sort him out.  

[Cowshed]

16 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

I feel it is more of a question of finding and paying for good coaches to improve and to organise the players we can afford.  A case in point is Fielding, surely we could afford a decent goalkeeping coach to sort him out.  

When looking at Keepers now it is about what you want, what is our game, what are the team and individual needs. If Bristol Citys future game is one when a Keeper playing with his feet is an integral part coaching now will only produce small improvement. That Keeper should have already done thousands of hours from kids /youth football up to have the technical base in place to play in the manner suggested.  

He can improve. Sort him out ... It depends what you feel sort out is, how you feel the team should function now and in future, and if its practical. 

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

I feel it is more of a question of finding and paying for good coaches to improve and to organise the players we can afford.  A case in point is Fielding, surely we could afford a decent goalkeeping coach to sort him out.  

As Cowshed has already implied...you aren't going to 'sort him out' now. His technical ability should have been ingrained years ago.

You aren't going to change FF now.

He can't kick a ball like a professional football should be able to, his control is poor, and ability to make a decision quickly fails constantly.

FF is best when it comes to not having time to think...his reactions as a keeper are superb, but that's all imo.

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

As Cowshed has already implied...you aren't going to 'sort him out' now. His technical ability should have been ingrained years ago.

You aren't going to change FF now.

He can't kick a ball like a professional football should be able to, his control is poor, and ability to make a decision quickly fails constantly.

FF is best when it comes to not having time to think...his reactions as a keeper are superb, but that's all imo.

Tbh, though he's not the best technically- his passing accuracy is 55% which isn't terrible for a keeper at this level.

Giefer had worse distribution statistically, Lucic never really got a chance, didn't impress sufficiently to overtake Fielding.

I believe Fielding, statistically at least, is in the top 6 first choice keepers at this level for passing accuracy- that's without looking at the stats.

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

As Cowshed has already implied...you aren't going to 'sort him out' now. His technical ability should have been ingrained years ago.

You aren't going to change FF now.

He can't kick a ball like a professional football should be able to, his control is poor, and ability to make a decision quickly fails constantly.

FF is best when it comes to not having time to think...his reactions as a keeper are superb, but that's all imo.

Its that ten thousand hours (you mention?) ... It does not have to be ten it could be much less. It is ingrained. Keepers like outfield players are the product of how they train intentionally and deliberately for years.  

City's players could assist Frank Fielding by creating options but do not. A question is how does Lee Johnson want his Keepers to play? Mr Johnson is hardly imploring his players to drop and split for Frank Fielding to create options.. 

[Cowshed]

25 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Tbh, though he's not the best technically- his passing accuracy is 55% which isn't terrible for a keeper at this level.

Giefer had worse distribution statistically, Lucic never really got a chance, didn't impress sufficiently to overtake Fielding.

I believe Fielding, statistically at least, is in the top 6 first choice keepers at this level for passing accuracy- that's without looking at the stats. 

Frank Fielding is not in the top six in the Championship for passing accuracy. His passing accuracy at this point is 61%. His accuracy veers from game to game and can be well below 50% dropping to 27% v Cardiff. 

These % should be broken down to distance. Themes are then more evident. Frank Fielding is twice as likely to not hit a target out of his hands than hit a City player. 30-35% of goal kicks will be lost. When he throws it out he is nearly perfect. Frankie throw it!!

What would be your expectations for Frank Fielding's v how the team play? 

Both Fuhams Keepers have, and have to have far higher accuracies because that is the teams need.

Bristol Citys team need?

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Frank Fielding is not in the top six in the Championship for passing accuracy. His passing accuracy at this point is 61%. His accuracy veers from game to game and can be well below 50% dropping to 27% v Cardiff. 

These % should be broken down to distance. Themes are then more evident. Frank Fielding is twice as likely to not hit a target out of his hands than hit a City player. 30-35% of goal kicks will be lost. When he throws it out he is nearly perfect. Frankie throw it!!

The question is what would you expect Frank Fielding's to be v how the team play?

Both Fuhams Keepers have, and have to have far higher accuracies because that is the teams need.

Bristol Citys team need?

Perhaps Whoscored.com is inaccurate.This site It indicates that he is there or close to.

Yeah, baseline stats can be misleading for sure- I fully agree that I prefer a keeper to throw it out, a quick roll out- help launch a break whatever- not a fan of kicking it out and splitting, although preferable to a kick up the middle v big defenders,. isn't my ideal way forward. Throwing or a quick roll out if in open play is the way for me.

Ideal world, he would become more accurate with kicking out, but that probably won't happen as you and @spudski pointed out his methods are fairly ingrained- he's developed that way so it'd take a while to change.

They do- Bentley at Brentford likewise, almost 70% according to that site- comes off his line often too so is quite possibly comfortable with this. Interesting to note that Button at Fulham- though he didn't start there, spent sometime at Brentford where they also have a distributing from the back, passing style of play.

I think Fielding could work, but as you say throwing it out where possible the way forward IMO. Kicking? Not so much.

[BobBobSuperBob]

 

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Perhaps Whoscored.com is inaccurate.This site It indicates that he is there or close to.

Yeah, baseline stats can be misleading for sure- I fully agree that I prefer a keeper to throw it out, a quick roll out- help launch a break whatever- not a fan of kicking it out and splitting, although preferable to a kick up the middle v big defenders,. isn't my ideal way forward. Throwing or a quick roll out if in open play is the way for me.

Ideal world, he would become more accurate with kicking out, but that probably won't happen as you and @spudski pointed out his methods are fairly ingrained- he's developed that way so it'd take a while to change.

They do- Bentley at Brentford likewise, almost 70% according to that site- comes off his line often too so is quite possibly comfortable with this. Interesting to note that Button at Fulham- though he didn't start there, spent sometime at Brentford where they also have a distributing from the back, passing style of play.

I think Fielding could work, but as you say throwing it out where possible the way forward IMO. Kicking? Not so much.

A fair observation but in the modern game most of keepers possession is not from hands but comes as a result of passes back to them where obviously it’s feet only

Agree with Cowshed that FF could be helped an awful lot more and the instruction to kick for maximum width must have a real effect on his % and I would regard too much scrutiny on his %alone unfair oersonally

As far as I can see the ball going straight into touch is a 2nd  best option in the plan in FF kicking for width and a very small target area

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Its that ten thousand hours (you mention?) ... It does not have to be ten it could be much less. It is ingrained. Keepers like outfield players are the product of how they train intentionally and deliberately for years.  

City's players could assist Frank Fielding by creating options but do not. A question is how does Lee Johnson want his Keepers to play? Mr Johnson is hardly imploring his players to drop and split for Frank Fielding to create options.. 

Exactly...repetition at an early age and continuing to keep doing so.

As for creating options...at the beginning of the season we did. We had two players stand either side of the 18 yard box...and then also Flint went up wide on the half way line.

Watch JoJO's kicking in the U 23's...far more accurate.

 

[Unan]

I can kick more accurately than FF..

[Mr Popodopolous]

21 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

A fair observation but in the modern game most of keepers possession is not from hands but comes as a result of passes back to them where obviously it’s feet only

Agree with Cowshed that FF could be helped an awful lot more and the instruction to kick for maximum width must have a real effect on his % and I would regard too much scrutiny on his %alone unfair oersonally

As far as I can see the ball going straight into touch is a 2nd  best option in the plan in FF kicking for width and a very small target area

True, and no doubt kicking for width plays a part.

Shorter distribution from goal kicks maybe, it's a fine balancing act though. Definitely see him as worthy number one though and worth persisting with- just a matter of how to improve him and the team further in this regard IMO 

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Perhaps Whoscored.com is inaccurate.This site It indicates that he is there or close to.

Yeah, baseline stats can be misleading for sure- I fully agree that I prefer a keeper to throw it out, a quick roll out- help launch a break whatever- not a fan of kicking it out and splitting, although preferable to a kick up the middle v big defenders,. isn't my ideal way forward. Throwing or a quick roll out if in open play is the way for me.

Ideal world, he would become more accurate with kicking out, but that probably won't happen as you and @spudski pointed out his methods are fairly ingrained- he's developed that way so it'd take a while to change.

They do- Bentley at Brentford likewise, almost 70% according to that site- comes off his line often too so is quite possibly comfortable with this. Interesting to note that Button at Fulham- though he didn't start there, spent sometime at Brentford where they also have a distributing from the back, passing style of play.

I think Fielding could work, but as you say throwing it out where possible the way forward IMO. Kicking? Not so much.

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/31866/Show/Frank-Fielding

I will have another look at it in future,

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Exactly...repetition at an early age and continuing to keep doing so.

As for creating options...at the beginning of the season we did. We had two players stand either side of the 18 yard box...and then also Flint went up wide on the half way line.

Watch JoJO's kicking in the U 23's...far more accurate.

 

Yes for a short period. I have watched the U23's and the CB's dropped and split ... Academy teams likewise. the intent is to keep the ball. That ethos is in the club but no longer in the first team. 

There it is. Mr Johnson chooses to create consistent contested aerial duels and also see the ball flying off the pitch sometimes three times a game from goal kicks. I do not feel Frank Fielding is particularly good at distribution, or that bad that tactically the team avoids him rolling and passing the ball out much more frequently.

If Bristol City are this team playing to feet ... It is uneven and bizarre. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

4 hours ago, spudski said:

As Cowshed has already implied...you aren't going to 'sort him out' now. His technical ability should have been ingrained years ago.

You aren't going to change FF now.

He can't kick a ball like a professional football should be able to, his control is poor, and ability to make a decision quickly fails constantly.

FF is best when it comes to not having time to think...his reactions as a keeper are superb, but that's all imo.

He's a very competent Championship goalkeeper imo.

The importance of this 'technical ability' for a goalkeeper to kick the ball extremely accurately every time is vastly exaggerated.

FF is tasked with landing the ball on someone's head on the touchline 50 yards away - even Glenn Hoddle at his peak would struggle to do that.

We don't go to watch 5-a-side at AG - there's nothing wrong with the goalkeeper booting the ball out of his hands as far as he can into the oppositions half sometimes - especially with a huge marauding forward like Djuric on the end of it.

[Cowshed]

10 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

He's a very competent Championship goalkeeper imo.

The importance of this 'technical ability' for a goalkeeper to kick the ball extremely accurately every time is vastly exaggerated.

FF is tasked with landing the ball on someone's head on the touchline 50 yards away - even Glenn Hoddle at his peak would struggle to do that.

We don't go to watch 5-a-side at AG - there's nothing wrong with the goalkeeper booting the ball out of his hands as far as he can into the oppositions half sometimes - especially with a huge marauding forward like Djuric on the end of it.

In my opinion the importance of a Keepers distribution in the UK is generally misunderstood and under rated. The game here is catching up after being in a time warp.

In some teams the Keeper is utterly integral to how they play. Some, not all.

There's nothing wrong with the goalkeeper booting the ball out of his hands as far as he can into the oppositions half sometimes ... Yes there is. That goes against any basic principle of attacking play. Aimless unless focussed and practiced. It is the easiest ball to defend and most inefficient ball in football e.g. Djuric Saturday won how many few? 

FF is tasked with landing the ball on someone's head on the touchline 50 yards away - even Glenn Hoddle at his peak would struggle to do that .. It is however marginally more successful than booting the ball down the centre of the pitch like you suggest.

The irony is that one of the greatest teams this Isle ever had in Liverpool had Keepers in Clemence and Grobbelaar that were forebears of what the Worlds best are doing now.

Manchester Utd in their pomp? Van Der Sar. The Dutch and total football obviously.

Man City now? Bravo and Ederson. That goes beyond integral ... It is vital to that team.

[BobBobSuperBob]

14 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

In my opinion the importance of a Keepers distribution in the UK is generally misunderstood and under rated. The game here is catching up after being in a time warp.

In some teams the Keeper is utterly integral to how they play. Some, not all.

There's nothing wrong with the goalkeeper booting the ball out of his hands as far as he can into the oppositions half sometimes ... Yes there is. That goes against any basic principle of attacking play. Aimless unless focussed and practiced. It is the easiest ball to defend and most inefficient ball in football e.g. Djuric Saturday won how many few? 

FF is tasked with landing the ball on someone's head on the touchline 50 yards away - even Glenn Hoddle at his peak would struggle to do that .. It is however marginally more successful than booting the ball down the centre of the pitch like you suggest.

The irony is that one of the greatest teams this Isle ever had in Liverpool had Keepers in Clemence and Grobbelaar that were forebears of what the Worlds best are doing now.

Manchester Utd in their pomp? Van Der Sar. The Dutch and total football obviously.

Man City now? Bravo and Ederson. That goes beyond integral ... It is vital to that team.

I know what you’re getting at with Clemence  and Grobbelar and their role as a sweeper , prepared to leave their box but Neither were brilliant with their feet , Grobbelar slightly better 5han Clemence

They were both good at sweeping behind and their distribution , particularly by throwing or rolling the ball out but they were light years from Ederson or even Pickford in their ability with their feet IMHO 

[Le Grande Homme]

The point about Frankie being superb reactively but poor when he has time to think is spot on.  His distribution is generally poor  however it is among several issues we now have when he has the ball to distribute.

1. Frankie's accuracy of kick is  inadequate and whilst some people say this isn't a big issue in my opinion it has cost us goals and momentum.  Against Sunderland in the second half his distribution was poor and I'm pretty sure led to at least one goal when he gave it straight back to them from a poor kick
2. He is very slow to distribute and this sucks the momentum out of any opportunity to break fast  

However to off set this

1. Our defenders are far too deep to receive balls(particularly from goal kicks), Flint comes parallel with the 6 yard box, what else is he going to do other than hoof it long or play risky sideways passes to Baker that again sucks any momentum out of moving it quickly and ultimately ends in us being closed down or sending a long aimless ball when the opposition have reset.  I simply do not understand this tactic
2. We have a number of players who are scared and don't want the ball - I'm going to pick on a couple of players here based on my observations - Brownhill - he simply does not want the ball from Frankie he runs with with his back to Frankie or he, like Patterson, tracks an opposing player to ensure that he can't receive the ball.  To be fair though i don't really think any of our midfield want it at the moment

We therefore seem to be in a vicious cycle of having a keeper who isn't the greatest distributor, supported by teammates who in effect offer him no options other than to slow it down and play a long, ineffective, inaccurate pass or slow it down and play a short ineffective pass  that results in general in a long ineffective pass.  

Bloody hell i feel depressed.

[Nogbad the Bad]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

In my opinion the importance of a Keepers distribution in the UK is generally misunderstood and under rated. The game here is catching up after being in a time warp.

In some teams the Keeper is utterly integral to how they play. Some, not all.

There's nothing wrong with the goalkeeper booting the ball out of his hands as far as he can into the oppositions half sometimes ... Yes there is. That goes against any basic principle of attacking play. Aimless unless focussed and practiced. It is the easiest ball to defend and most inefficient ball in football e.g. Djuric Saturday won how many few? 

FF is tasked with landing the ball on someone's head on the touchline 50 yards away - even Glenn Hoddle at his peak would struggle to do that .. It is however marginally more successful than booting the ball down the centre of the pitch like you suggest.

The irony is that one of the greatest teams this Isle ever had in Liverpool had Keepers in Clemence and Grobbelaar that were forebears of what the Worlds best are doing now.

Manchester Utd in their pomp? Van Der Sar. The Dutch and total football obviously.

Man City now? Bravo and Ederson. That goes beyond integral ... It is vital to that team.

Well, I don't agree. I have a firm mental image of Clemence kicking the ball out of his hands, what's more he could kick from both his right and left foot, and throw the ball out accurately with either hand. But did he boot it upfield for Toshack to head on for Keegan? He certainly did.

It's no more aimless aiming the ball for Djuric's head half way, or more, into the opponents half than attempting to hit Bryan's head on the touchline and with the longer ball you are putting the opponents defence under immediate pressure in the danger area. Yes, of course, it should be 'focussed and practiced' and be part of training like any other aspect of the game.

I don't agree either is more successful than the other but with a man mountain like Djuric to aim for it certainly should be part of our armoury.

Fans seem to be writing off FF due to his poor passing but I don't see many visiting keepers who are particularly adept at this. It is one thing to judge a goalkeeper on, but along with dealing with crosses, whether he comes off his line, how he organises the defence, what a good shot stopper he is, etc.

To discount all a keepers' other attributes because his distribution is not top notch is ridiculous. You might think there is no room in the beautiful game for long kicks by the keeper, I disagree. There's room for passing, throwing and kicking downfield - whichever opportunity presents itself best at any particular moment.

 

[spudski]

2 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Well, I don't agree. I have a firm mental image of Clemence kicking the ball out of his hands, what's more he could kick from both his right and left foot, and throw the ball out accurately with either hand. But did he boot it upfield for Toshack to head on for Keegan? He certainly did.

It's no more aimless aiming the ball for Djuric's head half way, or more, into the opponents half than attempting to hit Bryan's head on the touchline and with the longer ball you are putting the opponents defence under immediate pressure in the danger area. Yes, of course, it should be 'focussed and practiced' and be part of training like any other aspect of the game.

I don't agree either is more successful than the other but with a man mountain like Djuric to aim for it certainly should be part of our armoury.

Fans seem to be writing off FF due to his poor passing but I don't see many visiting keepers who are particularly adept at this. It is one thing to judge a goalkeeper on, but along with dealing with crosses, whether he comes off his line, how he organises the defence, what a good shot stopper he is, etc.

To discount all a keepers' other attributes because his distribution is not top notch is ridiculous. You might think there is no room in the beautiful game for long kicks by the keeper, I disagree. There's room for passing, throwing and kicking downfield - whichever opportunity presents itself best at any particular moment.

 

Why would you think kicking a ball upfield, making it a 50/50 ball, with no one knowing where it's going to end up, is a good thing?

When you could play out from the back and have a better chance of keeping possession and keeping in shape.

Control is far better than making it a lottery.

[Cowshed]

3 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Well, I don't agree. I have a firm mental image of Clemence kicking the ball out of his hands, what's more he could kick from both his right and left foot, and throw the ball out accurately with either hand. But did he boot it upfield for Toshack to head on for Keegan? He certainly did.

It's no more aimless aiming the ball for Djuric's head half way, or more, into the opponents half than attempting to hit Bryan's head on the touchline and with the longer ball you are putting the opponents defence under immediate pressure in the danger area. Yes, of course, it should be 'focussed and practiced' and be part of training like any other aspect of the game.

I don't agree either is more successful than the other but with a man mountain like Djuric to aim for it certainly should be part of our armoury.

Fans seem to be writing off FF due to his poor passing but I don't see many visiting keepers who are particularly adept at this. It is one thing to judge a goalkeeper on, but along with dealing with crosses, whether he comes off his line, how he organises the defence, what a good shot stopper he is, etc.

To discount all a keepers' other attributes because his distribution is not top notch is ridiculous. You might think there is no room in the beautiful game for long kicks by the keeper, I disagree. There's room for passing, throwing and kicking downfield - whichever opportunity presents itself best at any particular moment.

 

One moment from this season.Claudio Bravo penetrates Bristol City with a pass into De Bruyne seconds later Manchester City score ... It is an integral part of Man Citys football,

Clemence regularly played balls into feet. It was part of Liverpools tactic of taking the steam out of games, quietening the crowd particularly in Europe. Liverpool's Keepers sweeped and distributed. And of course they did go longer as well. What we see know is a progression due to rule changes in the back pass rule, 

How many balls did Djuric win Saturday? How many balls do City win centrally and long over the season? Not very many hardly surprising with Reid and Patterson up front. Going to the sides has been more successful if that is the right description. Long straight balls  are continually lost because its the easiest ball in football to defend and do not put much pressure on defenders who will be favourite. It is not a 50/50 ball.  

Fans seem to be writing off FF due to his poor passing but I don't see many visiting keepers who are particularly adept at this ... How do they play? What is the needs of these teams? Brentford to Millwall to Wolves play differently and so teams and challenges will alter.

It is one thing to judge a goalkeeper on, but along with dealing with crosses, whether he comes off his ... Yes. But the majority of a Keepers game is played with the feet. In a team that plays to feet that need is surely multiplied. Bristol City now and in future? 

To discount all a keepers' other attributes because his distribution ... I have not. I pointed out that there is risk and reward. Risk is that Bristol Citys tactical ability could be hindered by its Keeper. 

There's room for passing, throwing and kicking downfield - whichever opportunity presents itself best at any particular moment ... And nowhere have I said different. Bristol City have moved away from those options. Long play is hardly controlled and too frequently bordering on aimless when rolling it out or passing it would have kept the ball.

[Cowshed]

6 hours ago, Le Grande Homme said:

The point about Frankie being superb reactively but poor when he has time to think is spot on.  His distribution is generally poor  however it is among several issues we now have when he has the ball to distribute.

1. Frankie's accuracy of kick is  inadequate and whilst some people say this isn't a big issue in my opinion it has cost us goals and momentum.  Against Sunderland in the second half his distribution was poor and I'm pretty sure led to at least one goal when he gave it straight back to them from a poor kick
2. He is very slow to distribute and this sucks the momentum out of any opportunity to break fast  

However to off set this

1. Our defenders are far too deep to receive balls(particularly from goal kicks), Flint comes parallel with the 6 yard box, what else is he going to do other than hoof it long or play risky sideways passes to Baker that again sucks any momentum out of moving it quickly and ultimately ends in us being closed down or sending a long aimless ball when the opposition have reset.  I simply do not understand this tactic
2. We have a number of players who are scared and don't want the ball - I'm going to pick on a couple of players here based on my observations - Brownhill - he simply does not want the ball from Frankie he runs with with his back to Frankie or he, like Patterson, tracks an opposing player to ensure that he can't receive the ball.  To be fair though i don't really think any of our midfield want it at the moment

We therefore seem to be in a vicious cycle of having a keeper who isn't the greatest distributor, supported by teammates who in effect offer him no options other than to slow it down and play a long, ineffective, inaccurate pass or slow it down and play a short ineffective pass  that results in general in a long ineffective pass.  

Bloody hell i feel depressed.

By dropping deep the centre backs create space in front of them, and ask questions of the opposition. Many opposing players will be unwilling to be drawn out of position as they can be bypassed by the Keeper who will / may have clearer options and numerical advantage to play into to.    

                                                                                                          GK

                                                                                        CB                                CB

 

 

 

 

RB                                                                                                                                                                                               LB                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

 

                                                                                       

                                                                                CM                                       CM 

 

 

RM                                                                                                                                                                                                LM                                                        

 

                                                          

By setting up something like the above minus forwards space is created to show for the ball and be an option. Bit of a rudimentary example but by opening up wide and high plus dropping off this provides multiple possibilities to keep possession, where as going long is a low percentage ball.

It is becoming a common pattern of play.  

[Trueredsupporter]

12 hours ago, spudski said:

Why would you think kicking a ball upfield, making it a 50/50 ball, with no one knowing where it's going to end up, is a good thing?

When you could play out from the back and have a better chance of keeping possession and keeping in shape.

Control is far better than making it a lottery.

Why do City do that and go to Flint on the side of the half way linen so often??

[spudski]

10 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Why do City do that and go to Flint on the side of the half way linen so often??

They don't...it is rarely used these days.

And when they did use Flint...it was planned. They gave themselves a better percentage chance of winning the ball by putting flint there to win the header.

However...the next ball then becomes 50/50 again...so what's the point?

Much better to play out from the back with possession if you can imo.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Thing is, great defenders and as a pair though Flint and Baker can be, they are not the best at passing IMO- though Flint has made a significant improvement last couple of years.

I know he has his knockers on here, but IMO one way to improve this and get the shorter, more fluid distribution going might be a back 3- and one of those in the back 3 to improve the ball circulation could be Hegeler. Given he is used to playing midfield, he could follow the increasingly common trend of a midfielder dropped back into centre back for this reason- just because he doesn't fit a 2 man midfield doesn't mean he has no uses I think.

Or even, and strictly vs certain opposition and in certain scenarios, drop Baker and play Hegeler as Flint's partner. Think Burton at home last October- we were super dominant, and a speeding up of distribution may just have given that little edge to get the win, pull out of position that bit quicker given the lack of pressure on our back line that evening.

[Le Grande Homme]

9 hours ago, Cowshed said:

By dropping deep the centre backs create space in front of them, and ask questions of the opposition. Many opposing players will be unwilling to be drawn out of position as they can be bypassed by the Keeper who will / may have clearer options and numerical advantage to play into to.    

                                                                                                          GK

                                                                                        CB                                CB

 

 

 

 

RB                                                                                                                                                                                               LB                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

 

                                                                                       

                                                                                CM                                       CM 

 

 

RM                                                                                                                                                                                                LM                                                        

 

                                                          

By setting up something like the above minus forwards space is created to show for the ball and be an option. Bit of a rudimentary example but by opening up wide and high plus dropping off this provides multiple possibilities to keep possession, where as going long is a low percentage ball.

It is becoming a common pattern of play.  

Yes it makes perfect sense and looks wonderful on paper and on the Lee Johnson coaching board, pity the reality for us is totally different.  

None of our players want it out from the back (Fielding or the CB's), or are at least looking to do something positive with it, so after a few ineffective sideways and backwards passes we inevitably  knock it long, if we do win the header the opposition win it back as no-one is taking a risk, or making the commitment to go beyond the man, looking for that knock on.  I'm excepting BR from that comment, he can't however, no matter how hard he tries, be everywhere, covering for everyone.

The answer to the "questions"  is therefore - send one man to attack the ball and they will knock it long, we (the opposition) pick up the pieces and we go again.  My frustration is i get exactly what you are saying it just seems to me that we don't execute it and invariably knock it long thereby wiping out your reasoning for why we adopt the tactic in the first place