Hugely Wasted Opportunity

[CotswoldRed]

7 minutes ago, Olé said:

Surprised no one has actually responded to what you commented on here. Let's call it what it is, utterly embarrassing. It should be embarrassing for Diony and it should be embarrassing for Mark Ashton, and someone at the club needs to man up and tell him to pack his bags and go back to France.

If a player is not picked for the matchday squad then of course they are free to do what they want but we've obviously already told him he isn't needed if he is this blasé about the whole thing, so why not go public on it and send him home, at least create some positive capital out of a siege mentality.

But no, this is Bristol City, where off the pitch we are ponderous and polite. We're not cut-throat on the pitch because we're not cut-throat off it. The players who ran into brick walls to beat Man Utd, see us recruit poorly in January and then sit by while the wasters we brought in stick up two fingers at us.

It's no wonder they've given up. I have no specific insight here but I'd be amazed if our squad harmony is still in tact - I bet the players are livid with some of the chancers paid to join. It was clearly a very united group up to Xmas, but our DNA spotter has thrown it all away with self-infatuated loners like Diony.

As per my match report, yesterday was a sad end to the season (if that is what it is) but if you're angry what is the point of continuing to direct it at 11 players who have largely been here for years trying their best, the disgrace is the "suits" who have failed so spectacularly to seriously enhance this team.

Diony needs to be officially well clear of Ashton Gate by next Saturday, and with any luck Mark Ashton a few weeks later.

Strong stuff. Interesting views. 

[lenred]

20 minutes ago, Olé said:

Surprised no one has actually responded to what you commented on here. Let's call it what it is, utterly embarrassing. It should be embarrassing for Diony and it should be embarrassing for Mark Ashton, and someone at the club needs to man up and tell him to pack his bags and go back to France.

If a player is not picked for the matchday squad then of course they are free to do what they want but we've obviously already told him he isn't needed if he is this blasé about the whole thing, so why not go public on it and send him home, at least create some positive capital out of a siege mentality.

But no, this is Bristol City, where off the pitch we are ponderous and polite. We're not cut-throat on the pitch because we're not cut-throat off it. The players who ran into brick walls to beat Man Utd, see us recruit poorly in January and then sit by while the wasters we brought in stick up two fingers at us.

It's no wonder they've given up. I have no specific insight here but I'd be amazed if our squad harmony is still in tact - I bet the players are livid with some of the chancers paid to join. It was clearly a very united group up to Xmas, but our DNA spotter has thrown it all away with self-infatuated loners like Diony.

As per my match report, yesterday was a sad end to the season (if that is what it is) but if you're angry what is the point of continuing to direct it at 11 players who have largely been here for years trying their best, the disgrace is the "suits" who have failed so spectacularly to seriously enhance this team.

Diony needs to be officially well clear of Ashton Gate by next Saturday, and with any luck Mark Ashton a few weeks later.

Never going to happen Rob, he’s part of the ‘cosy club’ as much as anyone else down at the Gate. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Olé said:

 The players who ran into brick walls to beat Man Utd, see us recruit poorly in January and then sit by while the wasters we brought in stick up two fingers at us.

It's no wonder they've given up. I have no specific insight here but I'd be amazed if our squad harmony is still in tact - I bet the players are livid with some of the chancers paid to join. It was clearly a very united group up to Xmas, but our DNA spotter has thrown it all away with self-infatuated loners like Diony.

No direct knowledge here either Rob but I believe you’ve likely highlighted something very relevant here and I’ve posed the question before 

If we as supporters were increasingly bemused , even shocked at the ‘performances’ of the ‘January three’ imagine what you would think , whether a squad member hoping / waiting for your chance , or one of the ‘trusted’ members who’d got the side to 2nd and a Cup Semi Final , when you’re actually on the pitch with them , as despite performances that even at their best could only be described as poor / dissapointing , LJ continues time and time again to try and shoehorn them into the side, especially as two of them are loanees

I think most of us can imagine their likely thoughts

(something to the effect of ‘WTF is going on’ I’d suggest)

LJs credibility must have taken some damage through this 

Add it to Ashton’s comments and I would suggest any of our better players with self drive or ambition would be thinking 

‘Maybe time to move on’

Flints sending off at Preston was out of character but potentially coming

As someone who leaves nothing on the pitch you could see him (Korey also springs to mind) at times in games runnning up to Preston , getting increasingly frustrated with the ‘efforts’ of some and what was going on 

Personally I feel that that sending off was a culmination of frustration 

[WolfOfWestStreet]

15 hours ago, Londoner said:

The simple solution would be to sack him. Unfortunately we have another Wenger on our hands

Wenger?? If only that was true. 

[Olé]

^ You've nailed it @BobBobSuperBob. I'm often reminded of that story of the zero tolerance "broken window" theory of policing that if you set the right standards even on the basic things, it will filter through to the approach to the more important things. At City, we've recruited so badly in January at a time the team were unquestionably committed to a successful campaign, that we've set a tone and precedent for the season that it's okay to be second best, it's okay to lower your standards.

I don't believe in conspiracy theories about deliberately avoiding promotion, but I do believe that in our actions as a club in January, we sent totally the wrong message to players we expect to fight tooth and nail for success. There was a "leaked" email doing the rounds last season from Wes Burns dad, which spoke of established players being shocked by the standard of Engvall. Even if it's only half true, to repeat it in January is a continual example to players that high standards are not needed.

[You Do The Dziekanowski]

15 hours ago, Robbored said:

Not this again............

 

 

15 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

i kind of agree with evil twin here.

Not that I don't entirely agree with the thoughts of @Lew - T in the first post, BUT .... it has sort of been done to death. I think we just work our collective selves into a writhing fury by thinking about the could-have-beens.

Put it on the back-burner for now. try to enjoy the remaining games, accepting that we will still be in the Championship next season.  Hope we significantly strengthen over the summer - mentally, not just with new faces.

I always thought we were punching a bit above our weight last year and would eventually be found out, although I'd obviously hoped not with such clueless, toothless performances as most of our recent ones. 

I love this forum. Same opinion. One met with negative comments one where everyone agrees. 

 

But this matter has done to death now surely. 

[RedRock]

Yep. Typical ******** City.

Those January transfers were the worst business ever. It would be great if you could say they had a neutral impact. Not the case, they had a negative one. They blocked progression and LJ included players massively out-of-form to avoid embarrassment and penalty fees. Disastrous.

If there was no money, far better to utilise what we had in the squad. Can’t believe given our DNA checks and cutting edge player analysis that the dozen or so squad players who were fit and available were more of a gamble than three ‘reject’ players. OK maybe one ‘punt’ on a reject ok ...but three is asking for trouble. 

MA has got what he wished and deserved. Hopefully , there will be a thorough inquest. Whether we will learn lessons is doubtful, we never do. 

City remind me of that Honda ‘What If’ advert..... we’re just happy doing ‘ok’. That’s the culture and DNA of the Club. Would be massively surprised if our on-the-pitch ‘winners and leaders’ will stick around for another season of ‘ok’. Will be sorry to see you go Flinty - one of the few who looks beyond being ‘ok’. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 hours ago, Clevedon Red said:

depressing stuff

Was actually 5 points off Wolves we were heading to- nonetheless, a win for us that evening would have pushed us on again, while certainly putting the skids under Wolves- who were 2 months unbeaten basically.

It's been quite the implosion since then.

[One BCFC]

I'm as angry as the next man at LJ and the board for January but I think some players need a long good look at themselves...

Joe Bryan - Took all the plaudits up until January, was even quoted on here to possibly play for England. I'm sorry but since January he has looked half assed, sluggish and has cost us vital points.

Aden Flint - Stupidly getting himself sent off at Preston, absolutely no need.

Jamie Paterson - Just what the hell happened to him? Was brilliant up until Villa away.

Diedhiou - People will disagree with this one I feel, but here goes. He isn't fit enough and his ball control is poor, does not suit the pressing game we played, LJ needs to take some blame for this, so often he subs him off 10 minutes too late like Sunderland and Leeds games and yesterday. Added I cannot see how he was worth 5.3 million.

The man who can hold his head high is Bobby Reid who is far too good for us at this moment in time. I will also say fair play to Marlon Pack who has been our best midfielder since January, and usually draws a fair bit of criticism on here.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Those who claim 

Woodrow ,Kent ,Diony ,Leko 

( And staggeringly that is just this season 

4 big fails out of four - takes some doing that )

And the spiel  ‘They can be sent back , No harm done’

As a conservative estimate and ignoring any loan fees that may be involved that’s the equivalent of two and a half seasons wages for one , wasted on those four 

Looking at the players involved I’d suggest a minimum of £1.5 - 2 million, or if IIRC @Davefevs recent work on budgets - somewhere near %10 of our annual wage budget .

For a Club where many on here bang on about ‘having to compete with a bottom third budget’ and SL and MA talking about having  to operate wisely   ........ That’s pretty disastrous business

Add to that the fees and wages paid to players destined never to make an impact here and the bottom third budget is at times akin to being invested in a pub fruit machine in many respects

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 hours ago, petehinton said:

January was an absolute disgrace and I’m fucking bored of hearing the “we couldn’t have gone out and spent millions on a big name player”. Yes we fucking could of. 

We were 2nd in the league and just beaten Man Utd. We signed 3 players that haven’t played any decent football all season. These 3 said players can now no longer even get in our squad. We signed a striker who hasn’t scored all season who is so shit he’s been allowed to go shopping in Oxford St today rather than travel with the squad. 

Im actually embarrassed for the Lee, MA & the board on this one. Everything was going unbelievably well & we were getting very lucky with some of our performances - let’s be honest, for us to play with so many players out of position & have the season we’ve had up until January required a big slice of fortune. Next season is going to be a real struggle. 

We had a real, unbelievably massive chance of finally making the big push to the Prem & have shown ridiculous amateurity to think we’d have gone up after signing the 3 players we did. Not to mention the fact Woodrow hasn’t played since January either. 

Was a great opportunity yes, but not without risk either.

Under FFP, we along with the rest of this League are allowed to make losses that total 39 million over 3 seasons.

Supposing we spend millions and we stay down. Chase the dream and spend a few more millions, with the resultant wage increases. 3 years are up and we've smashed the loss limit but stayed down.

FFP...the problem is that it keeps getting harsher. No, Lansdown couldn't write off the losses under FFP on the football side, the Football League etc aren't stupid and would see through an owner who did that.

Possible penalties including but not limited to:

*Transfer embargo

*A fine, subject to a formula linked to how much the losses exceed acceptable levels.

However, the risk is the new penalties really. These include:

*A points deduction, that could affect a side even if promotion was achieved.

*Kicking a side from top 2 to playoffs or even out of top 6 altogether.

*Kicking a side from top 6 to 7th.

All of these scenarios under the tightened up rules are a possibility- the new one is the possibility to strip promotion for a breach over a three year period.

[Red Skin]

35 minutes ago, Olé said:

At City, we've recruited so badly in January at a time the team were unquestionably committed to a successful campaign, that we've set a tone and precedent for the season that it's okay to be second best, it's okay to lower your standards.

I usually find I agree with your posts, @Olé, especially your match reports but gonna pull you up on this one.

As it's transpired it was a bad January, but everyone was raving about Walsh and Kent at the time. 

Diony was a gamble granted, but could have been a gem.  I may be wrong, but I am not sure the full extent of Taylor or Duric's injuries were fully understood at that stage, so to get another striker probably wasn't on. (I'd seen enough of Woodrow to send him back, but probably not an option)

Not getting back up for Pisano was the major mistake for me, but January only looks particularly bad because they players have not lived up to the hype.  Maybe the error was to bring in young players rather than experience, but even then there is still some risk (see Gary O'Neil).  

[cidered abroad]

16 hours ago, weepywall said:

Been watching for 45 years so seen top flight football and bottom of the whole league  football and I honestly thought in December we were on the verge of something special, what has happened since has been truly catastrophic in football terms, I know some will say we have improved position wise which is true but we have thrown away a massive opportunity that may not come around again for a very long time. As plenty will say typical f-----g City.

Same thoughts as me. Just change 45 to 68 years.

[winterbournered]

Yep, we should've definitely invested £10 million in January it would've guaranteed promotion just look at how Leeds are flying... oh wait.... 

[pillred]

16 hours ago, Robbored said:

Not this again............

 

I'm pretty sure most things you post have at some time been discussed on here some many times, there are very few original things left to discuss, things are bound to come up time and time again what's wrong with that, we don't moan when you come out with the same tiresome reactions.

[Lanterne Rouge]

11 minutes ago, winterbournered said:

Yep, we should've definitely invested £10 million in January it would've guaranteed promotion just look at how Leeds are flying... oh wait.... 

And as for Cameron Jerome, what a season he`s having, really turned Derby`s fortunes around. Well worth 40k a week IMO.

[CotswoldRed]

1 minute ago, Red Right Hand said:

And as for Cameron Jerome, what a season he`s having, really turned Derby`s fortunes around. Well worth 40k a week IMO.

Didn't Cameron Jerome win Commonwealth gold yesterday from the 10m board? 

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 minute ago, CotswoldRed said:

Didn't Cameron Jerome win Commonwealth gold yesterday from the 10m board? 

Triple half pike wasn`t it?

[oldstandrobin]

Totally agree that we were at our most noticeable for the Jan window and we totally squandered it. We were riding high, had a good standing in the football media but didnt capitalise on it. I dont know if we have a gypsies curse on us but after supporting them for nearly 60 years there is something that just doesnt gel at the Gate. Wish I knew what 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Was a great opportunity yes, but not without risk either.

Under FFP, we along with the rest of this League are allowed to make losses that total 39 million over 3 seasons.

Supposing we spend millions and we stay down. Chase the dream and spend a few more millions, with the resultant wage increases. 3 years are up and we've smashed the loss limit but stayed down.

FFP...the problem is that it keeps getting harsher. No, Lansdown couldn't write off the losses under FFP on the football side, the Football League etc aren't stupid and would see through an owner who did that.

Possible penalties including but not limited to:

*Transfer embargo

*A fine, subject to a formula linked to how much the losses exceed acceptable levels.

However, the risk is the new penalties really. These include:

*A points deduction, that could affect a side even if promotion was achieved.

*Kicking a side from top 2 to playoffs or even out of top 6 altogether.

*Kicking a side from top 6 to 7th.

All of these scenarios under the tightened up rules are a possibility- the new one is the possibility to strip promotion for a breach over a three year period.

Exactly this.

FFP allows us to lose £39m over 3 years if backed by SL....only £15m if no backing.

14/15: £8m loss

15/16: £13m Loss

16/17: £3.5m loss

So for the prior 3 years we are nicely inside FFP.  However in 16/17 we would’ve been close to losing £12m had we not made money from transfers.  What people need to realise is that without selling a star we are making big losses each season.  Revenue from increased gates and cup runs isn’t going to turn us into profit based on our current wage bill.  Estimates that our cup run generated an extra £3m is great, but that’s not something you can budget for at the start of the season.

The greatly reduced loss in 16/17 might prove crucial if we do want to give it more of a go next season.  Let’s assume we lose £8m this year 17/18, then that would allow us to lose £27.5m next season to really push on.  The big question is would SL pump that in?  The likely answer is - no!

So we’ve got to be much cleverer in our recruitment and maximise anyone leaving us.  The first half of that equation has been mixed (understatement).  I do think SL’s patience might be tested when he sits down with LJ and MA at the end of the season.  Not saying he’s going to sack LJ, but I think he’ll ask him to produce more with less....scary!

[RaspberryRed]

17 hours ago, daored said:

My concern is when the club says we’re not going for promotion. How arrogant is that statement, clubs can’t pick and choose what season to go for it. We were in a strong position and we haven’t taken the opportunity presented. Whose to say we will be in this position next season  , or the season after? How long ago was the Hull game, in life you have to take the opportunity when it presents itself.

Absolutely spot on as people seem to forget about the players we could potentially lose in the Summer. The prospect of no Flint, Bryan & Reid would leave us hugely playing catch up from the get go

[Mr Popodopolous]

42 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Exactly this.

FFP allows us to lose £39m over 3 years if backed by SL....only £15m if no backing.

14/15: £8m loss

15/16: £13m Loss

16/17: £3.5m loss

So for the prior 3 years we are nicely inside FFP.  However in 16/17 we would’ve been close to losing £12m had we not made money from transfers.  What people need to realise is that without selling a star we are making big losses each season.  Revenue from increased gates and cup runs isn’t going to turn us into profit based on our current wage bill.  Estimates that our cup run generated an extra £3m is great, but that’s not something you can budget for at the start of the season.

The greatly reduced loss in 16/17 might prove crucial if we do want to give it more of a go next season.  Let’s assume we lose £8m this year 17/18, then that would allow us to lose £27.5m next season to really push on.  The big question is would SL pump that in?  The likely answer is - no!

So we’ve got to be much cleverer in our recruitment and maximise anyone leaving us.  The first half of that equation has been mixed (understatement).  I do think SL’s patience might be tested when he sits down with LJ and MA at the end of the season.  Not saying he’s going to sack LJ, but I think he’ll ask him to produce more with less....scary!

Agree with most of this. We may yet be able to make a big push this coming season thanks to the reduced FFP losses, largely due to the sale of Kodjia.

To clarify, does the FFP three year rolling period of monitoring begin in 16/17 or 17/18? Assuming it's the latter.

Lastly, maybe SL could put in 27.5million as a one time hit- if for example we (dreaming here) kept the squad together, moved on varied fringe players and added a marquee player or 2- Mitrovic maybe and a high calibre (for this level) right winger or central midfielder.

Maybe he would push the boat out then, if he felt confident of promotion in year three- a one time big hit for a major payoff. If it failed, unlike Villa or Derby and their aging squads, Mitrovic would have a strong resale value

[Davefevs]

It’s rolling 3 years, so each year it moves on, e.g.

14/15, 15/16, 16/17

15/16, 16/17, 17/18

so next season’s accounts, produced early in 2020 will include:

16/17, 17/18 and 18/19’s seasons / accounts.

[Major Isewater]

[exAtyeoMax]

4 hours ago, Olé said:

Surprised no one has actually responded to what you commented on here. Let's call it what it is, utterly embarrassing. It should be embarrassing for Diony and it should be embarrassing for Mark Ashton, and someone at the club needs to man up and tell him to pack his bags and go back to France.

If a player is not picked for the matchday squad then of course they are free to do what they want but we've obviously already told him he isn't needed if he is this blasé about the whole thing, so why not go public on it and send him home, at least create some positive capital out of a siege mentality.

But no, this is Bristol City, where off the pitch we are ponderous and polite. We're not cut-throat on the pitch because we're not cut-throat off it. The players who ran into brick walls to beat Man Utd, see us recruit poorly in January and then sit by while the wasters we brought in stick up two fingers at us.

It's no wonder they've given up. I have no specific insight here but I'd be amazed if our squad harmony is still in tact - I bet the players are livid with some of the chancers paid to join. It was clearly a very united group up to Xmas, but our DNA spotter has thrown it all away with self-infatuated loners like Diony.

As per my match report, yesterday was a sad end to the season (if that is what it is) but if you're angry what is the point of continuing to direct it at 11 players who have largely been here for years trying their best, the disgrace is the "suits" who have failed so spectacularly to seriously enhance this team.

Diony needs to be officially well clear of Ashton Gate by next Saturday, and with any luck Mark Ashton a few weeks later.

Yep 

[BS4 on Tour...]

19 hours ago, Lew-T said:

Why don’t you have a wank over Gary Johnson’s misses or summat.

...was he a striker?!

[BS4 on Tour...]

19 hours ago, Robbored said:

Not this again............

 

Why shouldn’t fans discuss their bitter disappointment, on the fans forum, about how badly the second half of this season has gone? We haven’t won an away game in over four months...people are annoyed and want to talk about it...if it bores you then why bother to open the thread and reply? 

[BS4 on Tour...]

58 minutes ago, RaspberryRed said:

Absolutely spot on as people seem to forget about the players we could potentially lose in the Summer. The prospect of no Flint, Bryan & Reid would leave us hugely playing catch up from the get go

You could potentially add Baker, Brownhill, Pack and Smith to that list....then we’d see how good our head coach is...

[exAtyeoMax]

19 hours ago, daored said:

My concern is when the club says we’re not going for promotion. How arrogant is that statement, clubs can’t pick and choose what season to go for it. We were in a strong position and we haven’t taken the opportunity presented. Whose to say we will be in this position next season  , or the season after? How long ago was the Hull game, in life you have to take the opportunity when it presents itself.

I guess that's when one should be concerned whether this club is being run entirely by financial gurus, specifically following a strategy to be prudent and balance the books or football people who are more likely to take the plunge/more risks and allow momentum to take its course.

[Frenchay Red]

True dichotomy. SL no doubt wants promotion to the Prem as his crowning achievement, but wants to achieve it on the basis of a financially sustainable model.