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JonDolman

West Brom actually making move for LJ!?

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'Additionally, when players come in from abroad, especially from Ligue 1, they really struggle with the physicality and pace of English football '

 

Wasn't a problem for Diony!

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4 minutes ago, RedM said:

That’s how I remember it too. I was sat listening in the car after we parked up before a match one Saturday. I remember there being a lot of comments about it at the time but don’t remember which match it was. Certainly the message that we weren’t going to keep changing managers came across loud and clear. I can’t remenber if it was actually said or the interpretation was that if fans walk away there are always others to take their place. I was quite shocked at the time.

Yes, and on the question of LJ being sacked if we were relegated he did not answer, despite being pushed by GT consistently on it.

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1 hour ago, Red Grovesy said:

I have a 'hunch' that signing leaders could be problematic for LJ. Do older experienced  professionals / leaders have opinions / views on the game and tactics that might differ from those of Lee and his coaching team? Could LJ 'manage' these people?

I appreciate the experienced Hegeler and O'Neil have had injury issues this season, but I understand they are fit now but still don't get bench/game time. Are they not experienced / older professionals who could help out now? I was at Forest on Saturday and only saw the usual suspects (and no shots on target).

As I say, just a hunch.

 

Edited by bris red

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1 hour ago, Red Grovesy said:

I have a 'hunch' that signing leaders could be problematic for LJ. Do older experienced  professionals / leaders have opinions / views on the game and tactics that might differ from those of Lee and his coaching team? Could LJ 'manage' these people?

I appreciate the experienced Hegeler and O'Neil have had injury issues this season, but I understand they are fit now but still don't get bench/game time. Are they not experienced / older professionals who could help out now? I was at Forest on Saturday and only saw the usual suspects (and no shots on target).

As I say, just a hunch.

I get the same feeling aswell. I loved Gary Johnson but for me this was his biggest downall, inabilities to manage slightly more experienced Pro’s who may offer different ideas and methods or go against the grain of the management team. Don’t get me wrong im not advocating bringing in openly divisive characters like Lee Tomlin as we all know what a negative affect they can have, but there is always a place for experience heads in a team.. makes you wonder if our season would have capitulated quite as it has if we would have had some more Championships experience in and around the squad and more importantly players that have won promotion out of the division...

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1 minute ago, bris red said:

I get the same feeling aswell. I loved Gary Johnson but for me this was his biggest downall, inabilities to manage slightly more experienced Pro’s who may offer different ideas and methods or go against the grain of the management team. Don’t get me wrong im not advocating bringing in openly divisive characters like Lee Tomlin as we all know what a negative affect they can have, but there is always a place for experience heads in a team.. makes you wonder if our season would have capitulated quite as it has if we would have had some more Championships experience in and around the squad and more importantly players that have won promotion out of the division...

We really missed a Wilbraham warrior type to fire up the team .

 

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On 30/04/2018 at 00:03, hodge said:

Playing the same standard as Bobby and Joe were out on loan at his age. 

Bobby and Joe came through the Academy. 

Moore cost £2m.

 

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On 29/04/2018 at 20:31, spudski said:

I expect to see Moore in the match day squad next season...and others that have been out on loan like Vyner, plus Kelly. As well as the likes of Elliason getting more time.

Vyner and Kelly came through the Academy nothing to do with Johnson. 

I want to know when more than 1or 2 of Johnson’s 30 signings will be trusted to play regularly in the first team

 

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On 30/04/2018 at 10:39, RedM said:

That’s how I remember it too. I was sat listening in the car after we parked up before a match one Saturday. I remember there being a lot of comments about it at the time but don’t remember which match it was. Certainly the message that we weren’t going to keep changing managers came across loud and clear. I can’t remenber if it was actually said or the interpretation was that if fans walk away there are always others to take their place. I was quite shocked at the time.

Remember being shocked too.  Was like the Fast Show Brummies "I’m considerably richer than thou" - apart from I wasn’t laughing.  SL went down in my estimations after that.  

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8 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Vyner and Kelly came through the Academy nothing to do with Johnson. 

I want to know when more than 1or 2 of Johnson’s 30 signings will be trusted to play regularly in the first team

 

When you say one or two do you mean Pisano Wright Baker Brownhill O’Dowda Paterson or Diédhiou? 

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9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Remember being shocked too.  Was like the Fast Show Brummies "I’m considerably richer than thou" - apart from I wasn’t laughing.  SL went down in my estimations after that.  

Me too....I hope this doesn’t go down the West Ham route of their hardcore fans openly hating their three mega-rich owners and turning their backs on their club....loads of old school Hammers fans are walking away and not renewing season tickets for next season - they think they’ve lost their club and they didn’t want to leave The Boleyn - reading all the stuff about it, they would rather have the loyal 30k fans at The Boleyn than the extra 25k fans who ‘film corners on their iPads’ - I totally get that...West Ham away used to be a proper experience, now it’s a walk in the tourist park....they’ve lost their soul...

Edited by BS4 on Tour...
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3 minutes ago, Big C said:

When you say one or two do you mean Pisano Wright Baker Brownhill O’Dowda Paterson or Diédhiou? 

Pisano - played less than 10 games?

Wright - if he’s the answer at RB I’d like to know what the question is. 

Baker- LJ got lucky with the Connection before him. 

Nit pick if you like it might be 3 or 4 regulars out of 30 signings still not great is it. 

7 our of 11 here before Johnson’s 4 windows says a lot. 

 

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15 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Pisano - played less than 10 games?

Wright - if he’s the answer at RB I’d like to know what the question is. 

Baker- LJ got lucky with the Connection before him. 

Nit pick if you like it might be 3 or 4 regulars out of 30 signings still not great is it. 

7 our of 11 here before Johnson’s 4 windows says a lot. 

 

Well you said one or two it’s now up to 3 or 4 and you’ve written of three other players who have or would have been regulars if it wasn’t for injury. 

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17 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Pisano - played less than 10 games?

Wright - if he’s the answer at RB I’d like to know what the question is. 

Baker- LJ got lucky with the Connection before him. 

Nit pick if you like it might be 3 or 4 regulars out of 30 signings still not great is it. 

7 our of 11 here before Johnson’s 4 windows says a lot. 

 

This for me..Bulk of the good things at BCFC were here before Lee came. Can dress it up any which way you like but his transfer activity has been poor by and large. Cott’s recruitment was better with less funds.

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10 minutes ago, bris red said:

This for me..Bulk of the good things at BCFC were here before Lee came. Can dress it up any which way you like but his transfer activity has been poor by and large. Cott’s recruitment was better with less funds.

Yep, spot on...I suggested on here a while ago that it was the league one champions boys who were dragging us through this season...I got pelters for that....still stand by it though....Fielding, Pack, Smith, Flint, Bryan - all mainstays in the team...Bryan played 50 games for Cotts in that league one champions season and scored 7 goals too...yet some on here still try to put his development down to LJ...

Edited by BS4 on Tour...
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On 30/04/2018 at 05:52, Major Isewater said:

We really missed a Wilbraham warrior type to fire up the team .

 

This is a really good shout!

I think completely true!

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19 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Yep, spot on...I suggested on here a while ago that it was the league one champions boys who were dragging us through this season...I got pelters for that....still stand by it though....Fielding, Pack, Smith, Flint, Bryan - all mainstays in the team...Bryan played 50 games for Cotts in that league one champions season and scored 7 goals too...yet some on here still try to put his development down to LJ...

Yep, add Freeman, Ayling and Cunningham to that lot and I don’t think we would have wimped out the season. 

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32 minutes ago, bris red said:

This for me..Bulk of the good things at BCFC were here before Lee came. Can dress it up any which way you like but his transfer activity has been poor by and large. Cott’s recruitment was better with less funds.

Plus self-funded by Baldock to Brighton

2 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Yep, add Freeman, Ayling and Cunningham to that lot and I don’t think we would have wimped out the season. 

Mmmm, interesting thought.  To be fair Cotts got rid of Greg, but Joe was ahead of him and Greg didn’t play Wing Back.

I do think LJ wanted to make a mark by getting rid of a couple of Cotts "boys".

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5 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Yep, add Freeman, Ayling and Cunningham to that lot and I don’t think we would have wimped out the season. 

Agree, with a back four of Cunningham, Baker, Flint, Ayling....we’d have been dangerous....

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1 hour ago, NickJ said:

Pisano - played less than 10 games?

Wright - if he’s the answer at RB I’d like to know what the question is. 

Baker- LJ got lucky with the Connection before him. 

Nit pick if you like it might be 3 or 4 regulars out of 30 signings still not great is it. 

7 our of 11 here before Johnson’s 4 windows says a lot. 

 

I find it massively concerning that no matter who he brings in, he always ends up relying on the spine of the team that was here before him

There is a huge chance we will lose Flint, Bryan, Reid and Pack in the summer

God help us then because Johnson won't. Lose those four and we are possibly going to be in a relegation scrap next year

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33 minutes ago, Andy082005 said:

I find it massively concerning that no matter who he brings in, he always ends up relying on the spine of the team that was here before him

There is a huge chance we will lose Flint, Bryan, Reid and Pack in the summer

God help us then because Johnson won't. Lose those four and we are possibly going to be in a relegation scrap next year

However LJ has had an influence on the spine as well, Pack, Bryan, Reid have improved under him and he had a big influence over Smith and then his move here. 

2 hours ago, NickJ said:

Bobby and Joe came through the Academy. 

Moore cost £2m.

 

And? It has always been stated Moore is a good prospect for the future, so he will be judged by if he makes it to the first team, given Bobby has only had an impact at 24 Moore should be given that time to show he can make it at our level too. If he makes it then the £1.5m (not £2m) then looks a bargain and he could be a 1st team player for several years after that. Just because at 21/22 he doesn't look ready he shouldn't be written off or count against Johnson. £1.5m now is more like a £500,000 punt a few years ago in terms of finances. 

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

Pisano - played less than 10 games?

Wright - if he’s the answer at RB I’d like to know what the question is. 

Baker- LJ got lucky with the Connection before him. 

Nit pick if you like it might be 3 or 4 regulars out of 30 signings still not great is it. 

7 our of 11 here before Johnson’s 4 windows says a lot. 

 

Or you could say the half season Baker spent with LJ as manager could have been what convinced him to come back. If LJ had made a bad impression in that half a season hard to think Baker would have wanted to come back.

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Plus self-funded by Baldock to Brighton

Mmmm, interesting thought.  To be fair Cotts got rid of Greg, but Joe was ahead of him and Greg didn’t play Wing Back.

I do think LJ wanted to make a mark by getting rid of a couple of Cotts "boys".

The Baldock deal funded all Cotts' transfers, the Kodjia deal covered LJ's in the majority, yet its counted against LJ rather than look at net spend. 

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@hodge fair point....However the players currently here cost £22m, not including loan fees for the likes of Tammy and Diony.  That’s probably not too bad a figure (in light of the Kodjia, Bolassie etc money In) but I think the criticism comes from too many signings not making a big enough impact / appearances.

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Just now, Davefevs said:

@hodge fair point....However the players currently here cost £22m, not including loan fees for the likes of Tammy and Diony.  That’s probably not too bad a figure (in light of the Kodjia, Bolassie etc money In) but I think the criticism comes from too many signings not making a big enough impact / appearances.

Wright/Pisano, Baker, Pato, Brownhill, Diedhiou arguably make our strongest XI (O'Dowda pushing for a spot too) so you could say his signings make up half our first choice starting XI so its not as if they're not there. I don't understand the argument of the players here before us still being key players being a failure of LJ's as such, why would LJ look to replace Smith, Flint, Pack etc if they're our best players, he'd want to bring the rest of the squad up to that standard which in a way is what we've seen from his transfers, with the rest of it being looking to bring in youth to develop. 

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14 minutes ago, hodge said:

However LJ has had an influence on the spine as well, Pack, Bryan, Reid have improved under him and he had a big influence over Smith and then his move here. 

And? It has always been stated Moore is a good prospect for the future, so he will be judged by if he makes it to the first team, given Bobby has only had an impact at 24 Moore should be given that time to show he can make it at our level too. If he makes it then the £1.5m (not £2m) then looks a bargain and he could be a 1st team player for several years after that. Just because at 21/22 he doesn't look ready he shouldn't be written off or count against Johnson. £1.5m now is more like a £500,000 punt a few years ago in terms of finances. 

Or you could say the half season Baker spent with LJ as manager could have been what convinced him to come back. If LJ had made a bad impression in that half a season hard to think Baker would have wanted to come back.

The Baldock deal funded all Cotts' transfers, the Kodjia deal covered LJ's in the majority, yet its counted against LJ rather than look at net spend. 

We spent the Kodjia money quite a while ago. Believe LJs net spend is over £9m.

Hes therefore spent over £20m I believe now?

Off the top of my head, and Ive underlined signings in my opinion that made sense;

Deidhiou (£5m), Baker (£4m), Moore (£2m), Engvall (£2m), O'Dowda (£1.2m), Eliasson (£1.8m), Wright (Undisc. ), Magnússon (£3m), Tomlin (£2.3m), Walsh (£1m), Taylor (300k), Paterson (£1m), Hinds (400k), Bakinson (600k), Durić (£1.2m), Hegeler (150k). And thats not even counting the wage costs and signing on fees most of those players incurred, as well as the overall wasted loan signings including the likes of Kent, Diony, Matthews, Leko, and Woodrow.

I can see the logic in signing Bakinson and Hinds, as theyre both younger and can possibly be more versatile in how we can train them to suite whatever our style of play will be. Add to that low transfer fee and wage outlays and its a gamble but a low risk one when you considwer how much it probably costs to develop players ourselves.

Compare that to our business out;

Kodjia (£15m), Ayling (800k), Freeman (300k).

The damning thing for LJ is that any players we have and will sell wont be any who his regime have signed after 2 and a half years. And arguably the only ones we could make profit on at this moment in time are Brownhill (Tribunal/Free), Diedhiou, Baker, and Pato (if we sell when hes on-form).

Alternatively we'd probably make a loss on Duric, Eliasson, Wright, Magnússon, Moore, Hegeler, Engvall, due to lack-of/reduced first team appearances and not fulfilling potential.

Would be interesting if someone made a chart of how many players Cotts made a loss on as I think all increased in value bar a few, with El-Abd springing to mind.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Fuber said:

We spent the Kodjia money quite a while ago. Believe LJs net spend is over £9m.

Hes therefore spent over £20m I believe now?

Off the top of my head, and Ive underlined signings in my opinion that made sense;

Deidhiou (£5m), Baker (£4m), Moore (£2m), Engvall (£2m), O'Dowda (£1.2m), Eliasson (£1.8m), Wright (Undisc. ), Magnússon (£3m), Tomlin (£2.3m), Walsh (£1m), Taylor (300k), Paterson (£1m), Hinds (400k), Bakinson (600k), Durić (£1.2m), Hegeler (150k). And thats not even counting the wage costs and signing on fees most of those players incurred, as well as the overall wasted loan signings including the likes of Kent, Diony, Matthews, Leko, and Woodrow.

I can see the logic in signing Bakinson and Hinds, as theyre both younger and can possibly be more versatile in how we can train them to suite whatever our style of play will be. Add to that low transfer fee and wage outlays and its a gamble but a low risk one when you considwer how much it probably costs to develop players ourselves.

Compare that to our business out;

Kodjia (£15m), Ayling (800k), Freeman (300k).

The damning thing for LJ is that any players we have and will sell wont be any who his regime have signed after 2 and a half years. And arguably the only ones we could make profit on at this moment in time are Brownhill (Tribunal/Free), Diedhiou, Baker, and Pato (if we sell when hes on-form).

Alternatively we'd probably make a loss on Duric, Eliasson, Wright, Magnússon, Moore, Hegeler, Engvall, due to lack-of/reduced first team appearances and not fulfilling potential.

Would be interesting if someone made a chart of how many players Cotts made a loss on as I think all increased in value bar a few, with El-Abd springing to mind.

 

 

You include Tomlin as a cost but not making money from selling him? We probably could make a profit on Wright given we signed him with his contract running down therefore at a reduced cost, Taylor maybe too, could probably sell him to league 1 for £500,000 or so. You left O'Dowda out, I expect we could get more than the £1.6m we paid. Pato more like £500,000 so potential for profit there too. 

You can really include Moore/Eliasson/Djuric in the we would make a loss part, Moore/Eliasson are unlikely to be sold this summer and could develop. Djuric is performing the role we signed him for (barring injury) and won't be sold unless someone offered a sum we'd probably get a profit for. 

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1 hour ago, hodge said:

You include Tomlin as a cost but not making money from selling him? We probably could make a profit on Wright given we signed him with his contract running down therefore at a reduced cost, Taylor maybe too, could probably sell him to league 1 for £500,000 or so. You left O'Dowda out, I expect we could get more than the £1.6m we paid. Pato more like £500,000 so potential for profit there too. 

You can really include Moore/Eliasson/Djuric in the we would make a loss part, Moore/Eliasson are unlikely to be sold this summer and could develop. Djuric is performing the role we signed him for (barring injury) and won't be sold unless someone offered a sum we'd probably get a profit for. 

I included Tomlin due to the fact we broke even. Its still no profit. But thats a fair point.

Taylor - Another fair point, was actually a smart purchase and I like Matty. But should we have signed somone more dynamic? We still have no pace up front, if Bobby had gotten injured we'd of lacked some movement in behind.

Moore & Eliasson - signed due to their potential which inflated respective fees. Eliasson has wittled down a year of his contract with barely any playing time. The former is in the last year of his contract next season having just had a very mediocre spell in League 2, so I dont see why I cant assume that as a loss.

O'Dowda - one period of good form before his injury that has not yet even slightly seemed likely to be replicated and also seems to have been rushed back a bit. Also entering last year of contract. It'd be close but Id argue we'd possible break even, we will profit if he comes good again but at this momen in time I cant say we'd profit.

Duric - Now 28, injury hit season going into his final year of his contract. Hes very much one trick - therefore dont think we'd recoup wat we spent despite the fact it is fun watching him just muscle defenders to the floor ala Palace.

Wrighty has gone from being captain and CB mainstay at Preston to a peripheral figure thats disappeared into the doldrums. You nor I can say we'd profit especially without knowing any source noting fee paid. He only has a year left on his contract as well. So hes gone from mainstay with 6 months (Preston) remaining to peripheral figure out of poisition and last seen booed by his own fans with 12 months left (Here).

 

 

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7 hours ago, 1bristolcity said:

So this is the same old moaners not only moaning about Lee but now moaning about SL....or am I just dreaming and this all so ridiculous that it just can't be real..

Can it?

Not a dream, but the reality that happy clappers don't understand

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On 30/04/2018 at 14:05, havanatopia said:

And we could have kept him for another year.

I don't think that would have been the best idea as he wanted to play on and wouldn't have got game time here. 

Someone ' like' him though.

 Before Wilbs we had Wade Elliot .

 I suppose GON  was meant to be that type of player but sadly that didn't work out .

 

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9 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Agree, with a back four of Cunningham, Baker, Flint, Ayling....we’d have been dangerous....

I’ve given you a ‘sad’ emoji, as I am gutted that didn’t happen.

I totally agree it was the bulk of the promotion team we are still playing with, and getting the most success from. They have seen off other players and pretty much kept their places. Add in Bobby Reid and that’s our backbone. I am absolutely convinced the bulk of those players will now move and play elsewhere, I just don’t see them wanting to play here another season. 

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I think you will find that it was SoD who was playing Fielding, Flint, Pack, Bryan and Reid...and who are all playing regularly still for us.

SC came in and bought short term...ignoring anything long term and any idea of bringing through Academy lads. He screwed up the summer transfer window, by targeting the wrong players and had nothing to bring through. Hence our freefall to relegation spots in this league.

LJ has used a bulk of previous players, brought in new for now to compete for the matchday squad, and the majority to develop for the future. That's how we are doing it now.

Development and loans and fast tracking Academy players.

The fact that we got ourselves into a position of top 2 in December threw everyone imo. I don't honestly believe the Club and coach imagined we would have done that well with who we have in the squad. I should imagine they were looking at consolidating and developing and looking for a mid table to slightly higher finish.

Looking at the players brought in to develop, I would have thought it was next season they were hoping for a bigger push...having a mix of younger players with more experience under their belts and some new signings with experience and a smattering of developed players from out on loan and the academy.

At the beginning of the season, would anyone have thought Reid would have had such a fantastic impact and be sought out by Prem teams, and being the Championships highest goal scorer?

Would anyone have thought we would have sat 2nd in December? Had two great Cup runs and beat Utd and pushed Man City and beat so many Prem sides on the way?

I certainly didn't.

I personally think our season, half of it anyway, has given certain fans unrealistic expectations and slightly skewed our thinking, as to the strength of our squad to be top 6 over a whole season.

Looking forward to next season already, hoping to see whether the development lads, academy lads, and other younger players can step up and do the job.

 

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On 30/04/2018 at 10:45, ScottishRed said:

Yes, and on the question of LJ being sacked if we were relegated he did not answer, despite being pushed by GT consistently on it.

Would you really expect any Chairman to answer that, though? I can't see what benefit would be gained from a public answer to that question, completely regardless of what the private answer might be. I certainly can't think of a circumstance where I'd publicly state the circumstances in which I'd sack anybody that I manage. Doesn't mean those circumstances don't exist.

That's not to defend SL's general interviews during that period - he was clearly rattled and feeling the pressure and made some very unwise comments about the fans.

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2 hours ago, spudski said:

I think you will find that it was SoD who was playing Fielding, Flint, Pack, Bryan and Reid...and who are all playing regularly still for us.

SC came in and bought short term...ignoring anything long term and any idea of bringing through Academy lads. He screwed up the summer transfer window, by targeting the wrong players and had nothing to bring through. Hence our freefall to relegation spots in this league.

LJ has used a bulk of previous players, brought in new for now to compete for the matchday squad, and the majority to develop for the future. That's how we are doing it now.

Development and loans and fast tracking Academy players.

The fact that we got ourselves into a position of top 2 in December threw everyone imo. I don't honestly believe the Club and coach imagined we would have done that well with who we have in the squad. I should imagine they were looking at consolidating and developing and looking for a mid table to slightly higher finish.

Looking at the players brought in to develop, I would have thought it was next season they were hoping for a bigger push...having a mix of younger players with more experience under their belts and some new signings with experience and a smattering of developed players from out on loan and the academy.

At the beginning of the season, would anyone have thought Reid would have had such a fantastic impact and be sought out by Prem teams, and being the Championships highest goal scorer?

Would anyone have thought we would have sat 2nd in December? Had two great Cup runs and beat Utd and pushed Man City and beat so many Prem sides on the way?

I certainly didn't.

I personally think our season, half of it anyway, has given certain fans unrealistic expectations and slightly skewed our thinking, as to the strength of our squad to be top 6 over a whole season.

Looking forward to next season already, hoping to see whether the development lads, academy lads, and other younger players can step up and do the job.

 

I'd agree with all that. At the same time, the form since Christmas has been worrying. And next season, the players bought for the future do need to start getting a chance. If we can play good football, finish top half, avoid any long forms of poor form and players like Eliasson, Vyner, Walsh and Kelly start to make an impact on the first team then I'll see it as a good season. But, whilst I support the plan, it is important that we see that progress next season. 

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5 hours ago, spudski said:

 

SC came in and bought short term...ignoring anything long term 

 

Cotts "came in" with us second bottom, 23rd, in L1.

Cotts went out with us third bottom, 22nd, in the Championship.

Cheers Cotts!

 

This is how many are judging LJ: 18th, then 17th, now 10th or 11th. Cotts raised us one whole division, and a place, up the football league.

Cheers Cotts!

 

When he arrived, the "short term" was a relegation fight, and L2 if we failed. The "long term" was a Championship relegation fight, and L1 again if we failed. And a £11m (plus add ons) striker amongst the playing assets, plus a centre half he - Cotts - transformed from a "kick it and head it merchant" costing us points into a confident and inspiring club hero worth ten times what we bought him for.

Cheers Cotts!

 

SC picked an academy product - Joe Bryan - over an older, more experienced international, Greg Cunningham.

Cheers Cotts!

 

SC recruited "young, hungry" sorts like Luke Freeman, Luke Ayling and Korey Smith, players that would have scope to improve here and be sold on. As per the club's stated philosophy. Some "long term" ish thinking there.

SC also did some "short term" stuff, things for the here and now, including: quite possibly the best or certainly one of the best "free" signings we have seen in many, many years, in Aaron Wilbraham. And, up until Tammy, one of most successful loan signings, in Matt Smith. Some fair DNA in them two, I would say.

Cheers Cotts!

 

Wade Elliott was another with desirable DNA. But SC selected the younger Marlon Pack ahead of Wade when MP performed better than Wade. Wade Elliott being SC's "long term" favourite, and Marlon Pack being a lad he had sold at Pompey, and many thought he wouldn't "fancy." Not bad for a "stubborn" manager.

Fair play, Cotts!

 

As for "long" and "short" term, after the mistake that was the Adam El Abd deal, SC paid good transfer fees for players of an age where they had scope to deliver a return on that outlay (eg Kodjia, Freeman, Ayling, Korey Smith, Agard) and also brought in experience without spending fees that would not deliver a return or profit (Wilbraham, Elliott). In the January of the promotion season, many on here wanted us to buy a forward (the Irish lad at Chesterfield for one, who went to Preston. Doyle?) to ensure goals and therefore promotion. SC opted not to, often referring to the "owner" and his money and the need to not waste it. 

 

 

The "long term" view of SC, when someone writes the next BCFC book, will be: he won a league - a tinpot league, fair enough - and a cup - also tinpot - double. We haven't won a league, tinpot or otherwise, very often.

Cheers Cotts!

 

The "short term" view might be - yes - he made an absolute mess of the recruitment in the summer of 2015, and then made a bloody horlicks of the first half of our first season up, and was over-ambitious/possibly deluded in pursuit of Gray or Gayle, and he didn't use the kids enough, and he was stubborn and that he was this or that behind the scenes, and a bit of twonk in club interviews, and so on.

 

The balanced view, though, might be that he brought both positives and negatives here, but left us 25 places higher in the football league than when he arrived. Not something we can say about most BCFC managers/head coaches.

I don't expect you, spud, to ackowledge all this or change your mind about SC, someone you dislike personally probably as much as or even more than professionally. I'd speculate that you have a bit of a blind spot, and are prone to confirmation bias, when it comes to SC, as all of us do with someone or other, within football and without, and with ourselves. 

 

But, despite his undoubted many flaws and other negatives, no-one can argue with the fact that he left us 25 places - more than one division - higher in the football pyramid than when he came to us. And unlike the last Labour Govt when they left office, with a few quid profit on Kodjia in the biscuit tin to spend on moving us even higher up the 92.

And for that, Cotts, I say: cheers!

 

And to Lee for shifting us from 22nd to 11th or 10th: Cheers too! 

 

Cheers, spud! :thumbsup:

 

Edited by Jack Dawe
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1 hour ago, Jack Dawe said:

Cotts "came in" with us second bottom, 23rd, in L1.

Cotts went out with us third bottom, 22nd, in the Championship.

Cheers Cotts!

 

This is how many are judging LJ: 18th, then 17th, now 10th or 11th. Cotts raised us one whole division, and a place, up the football league.

Cheers Cotts!

 

When he arrived, the "short term" was a relegation fight, and L2 if we failed. The "long term" was a Championship relegation fight, and L1 again if we failed. And a £11m (plus add ons) striker amongst the playing assets, plus a centre half he - Cotts - transformed from a "kick it and head it merchant" costing us points into a confident and inspiring club hero worth ten times what we bought him for.

Cheers Cotts!

 

SC picked an academy product - Joe Bryan - over an older, more experienced international, Greg Cunningham.

Cheers Cotts!

 

SC recruited "young, hungry" sorts like Luke Freeman, Luke Ayling and Korey Smith, players that would have scope to improve here and be sold on. As per the club's stated philosophy. Some "long term" ish thinking there.

SC also did some "short term" stuff, things for the here and now, including: quite possibly the best or certainly one of the best "free" signings we have seen in many, many years, in Aaron Wilbraham. And, up until Tammy, one of most successful loan signings, in Matt Smith. Some fair DNA in them two, I would say.

Cheers Cotts!

 

Wade Elliott was another with desirable DNA. But SC selected the younger Marlon Pack ahead of Wade when MP performed better than Wade. Wade Elliott being SC's "long term" favourite, and Marlon Pack being a lad he had sold at Pompey, and many thought he wouldn't "fancy." Not bad for a "stubborn" manager.

Fair play, Cotts!

 

As for "long" and "short" term, after the mistake that was the Adam El Abd deal, SC paid good transfer fees for players of an age where they had scope to deliver a return on that outlay (eg Kodjia, Freeman, Ayling, Korey Smith, Agard) and also brought in experience without spending fees that would not deliver a return or profit (Wilbraham, Elliott). In the January of the promotion season, many on here wanted us to buy a forward (the Irish lad at Chesterfield for one, who went to Preston. Doyle?) to ensure goals and therefore promotion. SC opted not to, often referring to the "owner" and his money and the need to not waste it. 

 

 

The "long term" view of SC, when someone writes the next BCFC book, will be: he won a league - a tinpot league, fair enough - and a cup - also tinpot - double. We haven't won a league, tinpot or otherwise, very often.

Cheers Cotts!

 

The "short term" view might be - yes - he made an absolute mess of the recruitment in the summer of 2015, and then made a bloody horlicks of the first half of our first season up, and was over-ambitious/possibly deluded in pursuit of Gray or Gayle, and he didn't use the kids enough, and he was stubborn and that he was this or that behind the scenes, and a bit of twonk in club interviews, and so on.

 

The balanced view, though, might be that he brought both positives and negatives here, but left us 25 places higher in the football league than when he arrived. Not something we can say about most BCFC managers/head coaches.

I don't expect you, spud, to ackowledge all this or change your mind about SC, someone you dislike personally probably as much as or even more than professionally. I'd speculate that you have a bit of a blind spot, and are prone to confirmation bias, when it comes to SC, as all of us do with someone or other, within football and without, and with ourselves. 

 

But, despite his undoubted many flaws and other negatives, no-one can argue with the fact that he left us 25 places - more than one division - higher in the football pyramid than when he came to us. And unlike the last Labour Govt when they left office, with a few quid profit on Kodjia in the biscuit tin to spend on moving us even higher up the 92.

And for that, Cotts, I say: cheers!

 

And to Lee for shifting us from 22nd to 11th or 10th: Cheers too! 

 

Cheers, spud! :thumbsup:

 

Cheers JD...applaud the effort. The joys of being a football manager...

 

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7 hours ago, spudski said:

I think you will find that it was SoD who was playing Fielding, Flint, Pack, Bryan and Reid...and who are all playing regularly still for us.

SC came in and bought short term...ignoring anything long term and any idea of bringing through Academy lads. He screwed up the summer transfer window, by targeting the wrong players and had nothing to bring through. Hence our freefall to relegation spots in this league.

LJ has used a bulk of previous players, brought in new for now to compete for the matchday squad, and the majority to develop for the future. That's how we are doing it now.

Development and loans and fast tracking Academy players.

The fact that we got ourselves into a position of top 2 in December threw everyone imo. I don't honestly believe the Club and coach imagined we would have done that well with who we have in the squad. I should imagine they were looking at consolidating and developing and looking for a mid table to slightly higher finish.

Looking at the players brought in to develop, I would have thought it was next season they were hoping for a bigger push...having a mix of younger players with more experience under their belts and some new signings with experience and a smattering of developed players from out on loan and the academy.

At the beginning of the season, would anyone have thought Reid would have had such a fantastic impact and be sought out by Prem teams, and being the Championships highest goal scorer?

Would anyone have thought we would have sat 2nd in December? Had two great Cup runs and beat Utd and pushed Man City and beat so many Prem sides on the way?

I certainly didn't.

I personally think our season, half of it anyway, has given certain fans unrealistic expectations and slightly skewed our thinking, as to the strength of our squad to be top 6 over a whole season.

Looking forward to next season already, hoping to see whether the development lads, academy lads, and other younger players can step up and do the job.

 

I think some of our so called fans on here are certainly deluded, and no matter where we finish they will never be happy,  what makes me sick is the same old complaining about well just about anything, and it seems that SL is now in the firing line, because apparently he made a comment that he has ploughed in more than the super fans on here, I say 'fans' with some reservations, because if they cannot appreciate the millions that SL has squandered on trying to make their lot happier then I must think BCFC is not for them. Sure mistakes have been made, but please spare the critique if and when we are struggling, not off the back of one of the best seasons we have had for many a year at this level. 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

Cotts "came in" with us second bottom, 23rd, in L1.

Cotts went out with us third bottom, 22nd, in the Championship.

Cheers Cotts!

 

This is how many are judging LJ: 18th, then 17th, now 10th or 11th. Cotts raised us one whole division, and a place, up the football league.

Cheers Cotts!

 

When he arrived, the "short term" was a relegation fight, and L2 if we failed. The "long term" was a Championship relegation fight, and L1 again if we failed. And a £11m (plus add ons) striker amongst the playing assets, plus a centre half he - Cotts - transformed from a "kick it and head it merchant" costing us points into a confident and inspiring club hero worth ten times what we bought him for.

Cheers Cotts!

 

SC picked an academy product - Joe Bryan - over an older, more experienced international, Greg Cunningham.

Cheers Cotts!

 

SC recruited "young, hungry" sorts like Luke Freeman, Luke Ayling and Korey Smith, players that would have scope to improve here and be sold on. As per the club's stated philosophy. Some "long term" ish thinking there.

SC also did some "short term" stuff, things for the here and now, including: quite possibly the best or certainly one of the best "free" signings we have seen in many, many years, in Aaron Wilbraham. And, up until Tammy, one of most successful loan signings, in Matt Smith. Some fair DNA in them two, I would say.

Cheers Cotts!

 

Wade Elliott was another with desirable DNA. But SC selected the younger Marlon Pack ahead of Wade when MP performed better than Wade. Wade Elliott being SC's "long term" favourite, and Marlon Pack being a lad he had sold at Pompey, and many thought he wouldn't "fancy." Not bad for a "stubborn" manager.

Fair play, Cotts!

 

As for "long" and "short" term, after the mistake that was the Adam El Abd deal, SC paid good transfer fees for players of an age where they had scope to deliver a return on that outlay (eg Kodjia, Freeman, Ayling, Korey Smith, Agard) and also brought in experience without spending fees that would not deliver a return or profit (Wilbraham, Elliott). In the January of the promotion season, many on here wanted us to buy a forward (the Irish lad at Chesterfield for one, who went to Preston. Doyle?) to ensure goals and therefore promotion. SC opted not to, often referring to the "owner" and his money and the need to not waste it. 

 

 

The "long term" view of SC, when someone writes the next BCFC book, will be: he won a league - a tinpot league, fair enough - and a cup - also tinpot - double. We haven't won a league, tinpot or otherwise, very often.

Cheers Cotts!

 

The "short term" view might be - yes - he made an absolute mess of the recruitment in the summer of 2015, and then made a bloody horlicks of the first half of our first season up, and was over-ambitious/possibly deluded in pursuit of Gray or Gayle, and he didn't use the kids enough, and he was stubborn and that he was this or that behind the scenes, and a bit of twonk in club interviews, and so on.

 

The balanced view, though, might be that he brought both positives and negatives here, but left us 25 places higher in the football league than when he arrived. Not something we can say about most BCFC managers/head coaches.

I don't expect you, spud, to ackowledge all this or change your mind about SC, someone you dislike personally probably as much as or even more than professionally. I'd speculate that you have a bit of a blind spot, and are prone to confirmation bias, when it comes to SC, as all of us do with someone or other, within football and without, and with ourselves. 

 

But, despite his undoubted many flaws and other negatives, no-one can argue with the fact that he left us 25 places - more than one division - higher in the football pyramid than when he came to us. And unlike the last Labour Govt when they left office, with a few quid profit on Kodjia in the biscuit tin to spend on moving us even higher up the 92.

And for that, Cotts, I say: cheers!

 

And to Lee for shifting us from 22nd to 11th or 10th: Cheers too! 

 

Cheers, spud! :thumbsup:

 

:clap:

That should be made the default response to the alleged - but as you have demonstrated, incorrect - short comings of Cotterill.

In fact when reading the facts as starkly as that, it makes you appreciate all the more Cotterill should have been properly backed, not sacked.

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20 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Agree, with a back four of Cunningham, Baker, Flint, Ayling....we’d have been dangerous....

Just that Cunningham is as affective as Bailey Wright as an attacking force and that Ayling is OK going forward but defensively suspect.

So not necessarily dangerous for the opposition.

 

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11 hours ago, spudski said:

Would anyone have thought we would have sat 2nd in December? Had two great Cup runs and beat Utd and pushed Man City and beat so many Prem sides on the way?

What are these ‘two great cup runs’ Spud? We lasted one game in the FA Cup....

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21 hours ago, 1bristolcity said:

So this is the same old moaners not only moaning about Lee but now moaning about SL....or am I just dreaming and this all so ridiculous that it just can't be real..

Can it?

Yawn

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On ‎30‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 13:05, havanatopia said:

And we could have kept him for another year.

 I said that right from the start , even though we had  big Milan doing the same  cameo roll from the bench 

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23 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Remember being shocked too.  Was like the Fast Show Brummies "I’m considerably richer than thou" - apart from I wasn’t laughing.  SL went down in my estimations after that.  

Yes Dave indeed. That was the Day he came across as egotistical power crazy and very stubborn. He's done a huge amount for this club but that one comment was a massive '**** you' to a Fan base merely reacting to the worst run in our history

Steve may well put in more cash but as a percentage per income I would say that a fan puts in a hell of a lot more year on year. Getting (at very conservative estimate) 250k pw in interest really has gone to his head

The season ticket fiasco has only strengthened that belief and I've relinquished as can't justify the cost. 

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14 hours ago, spudski said:

I think you will find that it was SoD who was playing Fielding, Flint, Pack, Bryan and Reid...and who are all playing regularly still for us.

SC came in and bought short term...ignoring anything long term and any idea of bringing through Academy lads. He screwed up the summer transfer window, by targeting the wrong players and had nothing to bring through. Hence our freefall to relegation spots in this league.

LJ has used a bulk of previous players, brought in new for now to compete for the matchday squad, and the majority to develop for the future. That's how we are doing it now.

Development and loans and fast tracking Academy players.

The fact that we got ourselves into a position of top 2 in December threw everyone imo. I don't honestly believe the Club and coach imagined we would have done that well with who we have in the squad. I should imagine they were looking at consolidating and developing and looking for a mid table to slightly higher finish.

Looking at the players brought in to develop, I would have thought it was next season they were hoping for a bigger push...having a mix of younger players with more experience under their belts and some new signings with experience and a smattering of developed players from out on loan and the academy.

At the beginning of the season, would anyone have thought Reid would have had such a fantastic impact and be sought out by Prem teams, and being the Championships highest goal scorer?

Would anyone have thought we would have sat 2nd in December? Had two great Cup runs and beat Utd and pushed Man City and beat so many Prem sides on the way?

I certainly didn't.

I personally think our season, half of it anyway, has given certain fans unrealistic expectations and slightly skewed our thinking, as to the strength of our squad to be top 6 over a whole season.

Looking forward to next season already, hoping to see whether the development lads, academy lads, and other younger players can step up and do the job.

 

That’s all well and good and I admire that strategy but those talented younger players ready for next season probably won’t be at Ashton Gate. You say next season you hope we would give it more of a push but are you really confident LJ can deliver?

We’re likely to lose Reid, Bryan and possibly Pack. Then it’s another transitional summer and back to square one isn’t it? Then we’ll most like take a season to bed in Vyner and Kelly. Building for the future is fine but you’ve got to have a sustainable platform and try to have a go when that opportunity arises. IMO we have missed one massively. How often do City go into January placed 2nd in the Championship and into the semi finals of a major cup competition? 

I’d like to see some signings for the now during this summer. 

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@spudski 

I have been meaning to ask for a while.

I know you are involved in coaching at a high level - are you involved at a L1/L2 club or higher?

You mention meeting with scouts and coaches, so I was wondering (if you are allowed) to tell us which club you coach at?

If you can't say, then I understand, but you seem to be very vocal about our coaching/scouting set-ups so must have regular contact with the same clubs City do.

I'd love a few insider tales if possible.....  :thumbsup:

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4 hours ago, RaspberryRed said:

Yes Dave indeed. That was the Day he came across as egotistical power crazy and very stubborn. He's done a huge amount for this club but that one comment was a massive '**** you' to a Fan base merely reacting to the worst run in our history

Steve may well put in more cash but as a percentage per income I would say that a fan puts in a hell of a lot more year on year. Getting (at very conservative estimate) 250k pw in interest really has gone to his head

 

I have been saying for years that PERSPECTIVE is required, so I will say it again.

SL is worth 1.6 billion.

That's not on paper, that's the actual money he could access by selling his share of LH.

He owns a brand new 27k capacity stadium, and has landbanked hundreds of millions of pounds worth of potential housing at AV (and PP will change eventually)

He owns the whole BS franchise.

Bristol City FC do not, as a separate entity have a pot to piss in, as SL now owns the whole chebang.

Interest and ROI gets him 160,000,000 per year - for doing nothing (and  I always freely praise him for doing so by starting in a garage!)

To him, its pocket change.

He could give away Season Tickets for free for the next 10 years to everyone, and it still wouldn't be more than loose change.

As a % of income, I guarantee you he puts in less than anyone who attends only 1 game a year.

Whilst now owning the "Franchise" and all that land in the process.

It's a plaything.

Reach the Prem (which he clearly doesn't seem to bothered about at times) - and he will get all he has spent back, with a handsome profit AND have a stadium, franchise, and all the AV land as clear and free profit.

All this is the idlings of a seriously wealthy bloke for a bit of fun.

He needs to decide if he wants to play in the ocean or stay the big fish in a little pond.

I wish he would make up his mind, as there are many ways around FFP, and he has the wealth, just on his ROI to buy BCFC into the prem next year.

If he passes us on to JL, then things will go rapidly downhill, as he makes his distain for common folk very very clear.

Whats the saying?

"Shit or get off the pot"

The man needs to make his mind up one way or another. And soon.

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On 02/05/2018 at 05:11, BS4 on Tour... said:

Yep, spot on...I suggested on here a while ago that it was the league one champions boys who were dragging us through this season...I got pelters for that....still stand by it though....Fielding, Pack, Smith, Flint, Bryan - all mainstays in the team...Bryan played 50 games for Cotts in that league one champions season and scored 7 goals too...yet some on here still try to put his development down to LJ...

The 5 you’ve mentioned are all in or approaching their prime so I think that whilst you’re right, it’s not exactly a fair comparison.

Rightly or wrongly we’ve signed lots of players who have scope to improve but are nowhere near their prime. 

The 21/22 year old versions of Pack, Flint and Bryan weren’t playing regularly at this level. They’ve grown to the level and are now thriving.

That’s the idea for O’Dowda, Moore, Engvall etc by the time they’re closer to their prime.

However, I think there probably is some weight in the argument to suggest LJ is reluctant to sign seasoned pros who may question him.

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I guess it’s a difficult balance to recruit relatively cheaply and bring those players on so they are ready to just slot in when you lose other players, and quite a gamble.

From what I’m guessing at the moment our best players (who are the most experienced) maybe moving on and our ‘middle’ players may have to step into their shoes. But I’m not filled with confidence that either they or the younger group who will come in  to replace them will be anything like what we are going to lose. It doesn’t help when players like Reid, who should be moving from the ‘middle’ group to the ‘upper’ group and have a couple more years with us look like going.

Of course we can always recruit and loan ( if we haven’t stuffed up by the way our loans haven’t happened this season). If we can keep our experienced players just one more season the transition will be so much smoother, we simply aren’t ready to lose what we have got in my opinion. We are possibly losing players in their prime, and several, not the same situation as players like Wilbraham etc who naturally had come to an end of his time here. Who is going to be the old head, wise leader in future?

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Good post SX227.

On another thread, I said that clubs like Burnley believe they should always be in the top flight. Whereas Bristol City hope to be.

We are a club that is content being a big fish in a small pond, usually third tier, rather than a little one in the ocean called Division One / Premier League.

I have serious doubts that we will ever change. Plenty of club chairmen have achieved a lot more with a lot less money. Does SL really want it or is he content being a whale in a millpond?

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5 hours ago, SX227 said:

I have been saying for years that PERSPECTIVE is required, so I will say it again.

SL is worth 1.6 billion.

That's not on paper, that's the actual money he could access by selling his share of LH.

He owns a brand new 27k capacity stadium, and has landbanked hundreds of millions of pounds worth of potential housing at AV (and PP will change eventually)

He owns the whole BS franchise.

Bristol City FC do not, as a separate entity have a pot to piss in, as SL now owns the whole chebang.

Interest and ROI gets him 160,000,000 per year - for doing nothing (and  I always freely praise him for doing so by starting in a garage!)

To him, its pocket change.

He could give away Season Tickets for free for the next 10 years to everyone, and it still wouldn't be more than loose change.

As a % of income, I guarantee you he puts in less than anyone who attends only 1 game a year.

Whilst now owning the "Franchise" and all that land in the process.

It's a plaything.

Reach the Prem (which he clearly doesn't seem to bothered about at times) - and he will get all he has spent back, with a handsome profit AND have a stadium, franchise, and all the AV land as clear and free profit.

All this is the idlings of a seriously wealthy bloke for a bit of fun.

He needs to decide if he wants to play in the ocean or stay the big fish in a little pond.

I wish he would make up his mind, as there are many ways around FFP, and he has the wealth, just on his ROI to buy BCFC into the prem next year.

If he passes us on to JL, then things will go rapidly downhill, as he makes his distain for common folk very very clear.

Whats the saying?

"Shit or get off the pot"

The man needs to make his mind up one way or another. And soon.

I think precisely the opposite.  If the club was just a plaything, SL could through in a few tens of millions to get us into the PL, lap up all the praise, media attention, good publicity, etc, then leave us in an almighty mess.

On the other hand, if he's trying to build something sustainable, something that perhaps he can eventually pass on to others, he will take a more cautious, long-term approach

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