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JonDolman

West Brom actually making move for LJ!?

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5 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Good post SX227.

On another thread, I said that clubs like Burnley believe they should always be in the top flight. Whereas Bristol City hope to be.

We are a club that is content being a big fish in a small pond, usually third tier, rather than a little one in the ocean called Division One / Premier League.

I have serious doubts that we will ever change. Plenty of club chairmen have achieved a lot more with a lot less money. Does SL really want it or is he content being a whale in a millpond?

No, I think you're wrong.  I have never seen an indication that we are content being a big fish in a small pond, and I have certainly never seen any contentment with being in the third tier.  I think for my whole life, and I go back 50+ years as a City fan, we have seen our 'rightful place' as being the second tier, and all the time we have been below the second tier there has been a sense that we should be doing better.  As regards the first tier, for many years it seemed a realistic aspiration but in the past decade football has changed so much that no club can surely contemplate the premier league without a degree of trepidation.  The club has acknowledged that going gung-ho in an attempt to get promotion to the Premiership doesn't work and, as other clubs have shown, it has to be the result of careful planning over time if a club is to have any realistic chance of staying in the premiership once they get there.  I see no lack of ambition on Lansdown's part, but I do see a policy which could lead to a successful future.  We've seen all this before many many years ago with Alan Dicks, when he spent eight seasons planning to get us into the top tier, with the fans baying for his blood along the way.  People have less patience these days, and have more accessible ways of demonstrating their displeasure than making a 'Dicks Out' banner, but the situation is the same.  The club has the right plan, but fans need to have patience while it develops.  Of course, Lee Johnson may not be the right man to deliver it, but when you appoint a very young manager you know that there are going to be ups and downs.  The critical thing now is that we take the rough with the smooth and follow the present plan, at least for another season or two, to see where it gets us.  Ultimately if the strategy fails then Johnson will go, but if Lansdown also goes I do fear for the future.  I would rather be owned by a local man who genuinely loves the club, than be taken over by a foreign consortium, so fans should be careful what they wish for.

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Start of the season, someone says: "would you take 10th in the league and a cup semi final, including defeat of ManUre?"

I think a lot of us would have said "Yes"

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7 minutes ago, red panda said:

I think precisely the opposite.  If the club was just a plaything, SL could through in a few tens of millions to get us into the PL, lap up all the praise, media attention, good publicity, etc, then leave us in an almighty mess.

On the other hand, if he's trying to build something sustainable, something that perhaps he can eventually pass on to others, he will take a more cautious, long-term approach

You could have a point. It would/could be relatively easy to buy ourselves into the Premiership, but where’s the challenge in that. SL and PH started their business from scratch and probably enjoyed the challenges and experience of getting to the top more than actually being there.

It is being said he bought his rugby promotion maybe he wants to prove he can do things differently with the football club. He has put a lot of faith in LJ and MA so wants to be able to say he was right about them too, if they gain promotion with a relatively small budget. He has always said the club has got to stand on its own feet.

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4 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

No, I think you're wrong.  I have never seen an indication that we are content being a big fish in a small pond, and I have certainly never seen any contentment with being in the third tier.  I think for my whole life, and I go back 50+ years as a City fan, we have seen our 'rightful place' as being the second tier, and all the time we have been below the second tier there has been a sense that we should be doing better.  As regards the first tier, for many years it seemed a realistic aspiration but in the past decade football has changed so much that no club can surely contemplate the premier league without a degree of trepidation.  The club has acknowledged that going gung-ho in an attempt to get promotion to the Premiership doesn't work and, as other clubs have shown, it has to be the result of careful planning over time if a club is to have any realistic chance of staying in the premiership once they get there.  I see no lack of ambition on Lansdown's part, but I do see a policy which could lead to a successful future.  We've seen all this before many many years ago with Alan Dicks, when he spent eight seasons planning to get us into the top tier, with the fans baying for his blood along the way.  People have less patience these days, and have more accessible ways of demonstrating their displeasure than making a 'Dicks Out' banner, but the situation is the same.  The club has the right plan, but fans need to have patience while it develops.  Of course, Lee Johnson may not be the right man to deliver it, but when you appoint a very young manager you know that there are going to be ups and downs.  The critical thing now is that we take the rough with the smooth and follow the present plan, at least for another season or two, to see where it gets us.  Ultimately if the strategy fails then Johnson will go, but if Lansdown also goes I do fear for the future.  I would rather be owned by a local man who genuinely loves the club, than be taken over by a foreign consortium, so fans should be careful what they wish for.

Big fish in little pool were City Chairman Mike Fricker's words to me back in 1993.

Even Harry Dolman once said at an AGM that we'll never be a Tottenham. We are what we are. I took that to mean that we'll never be a player at the top table. 

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3 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Big fish in little pool were City Chairman Mike Fricker's words to me back in 1993.

Even Harry Dolman once said at an AGM that we'll never be a Tottenham. We are what we are. I took that to mean that we'll never be a player at the top table. 

I think that once teams like Bournemouth, Reading, Burnley, Hull, Huddersfield, Brighton etc have been in the Premiership in recent years it’s not so unrealistic. Of course we are never going to be Tottenham but surely we can emulate a few of the teams I have mentioned. That surely shouldn’t be out of our grasp or expectation, if so why are we bothering?

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11 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Start of the season, someone says: "would you take 10th in the league and a cup semi final, including defeat of ManUre?"

I think a lot of us would have said "Yes"

But would you have taken 10th on New Years Day?

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13 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Big fish in little pool were City Chairman Mike Fricker's words to me back in 1993.

Even Harry Dolman once said at an AGM that we'll never be a Tottenham. We are what we are. I took that to mean that we'll never be a player at the top table. 

Well, I don't want to get too existential about this, but do you ever ask yourself what you want from football?  I want to be entertained and to have the excitement of a successful season, and the truth is that a promotion season is a promotion season, whatever division you are in.  Which season did you enjoy best: being relegated under Sean O'Driscoll, or being promoted under Steve Cotterill?  If we could be a Tottenham, of course I'd take it, but would I want to be a Blackpool, Bradford City, Charlton Athletic, Coventry CIty, Oldham Athletic,  Portsmouth or Swindon Town, all of whom have experienced the Premiership, any more than a Bristol City?  All the most memorable seasons I've experienced have been when we've actually achieved something.  Yes, those of us who were there all remember the drama and emotion of the 2-2 draw at Coventry in 1977, but the reality is that we had three out of four years of fighting relegation, and while having a higher profile and seeing the top players at Ashton Gate was great, not much of it lived up to the experience of getting there in the first place.  I suspect that if you are outside the big six, the best experience you will get is promotion from the Championship and perhaps a good cup run.

Bristol is a strange place.  You have to ask yourself, as we all have done many times, why we have underachieved so badly in teh past 100 years...

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13 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

But would you have taken 10th on New Years Day?

Fair point.  But our league position was nuts, like the play-off season under GJ.

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How the hell would any one of us know that LJ struggles to manage more experienced/big name players? :facepalm:

A couple will mention it on here and suddenly it’s gospel.

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12 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

But would you have taken 10th on New Years Day?

But that's the whole point of perspective.

We have exceeded the expectations that (at a guess) 90% of the fanbase had for this season.

As the season develops, targets can change and when 2nd at the turn of the year then targets can be changed.

But, failing to meet the revised, much higher target, while still comfortably surpassing the original doesn't make a season a disaster.

It means that instead of being a fantastic or great season, it's merely a good or decent one.

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1 hour ago, JamesBCFC said:

But that's the whole point of perspective.

We have exceeded the expectations that (at a guess) 90% of the fanbase had for this season.

As the season develops, targets can change and when 2nd at the turn of the year then targets can be changed.

But, failing to meet the revised, much higher target, while still comfortably surpassing the original doesn't make a season a disaster.

It means that instead of being a fantastic or great season, it's merely a good or decent one.

Who’s targets change though, yours or the clubs?

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1 hour ago, archie andrews said:

all the LJ haters prayers may be answered sunday .................hope youre very proud of yourselves ..........

and why would he go to another championship club, when he is already at one and one where he has its owner in his back pocket :hug:

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11 minutes ago, Bri Stool City said:

and why would he go to another championship club, when he is already at one and one where he has its owner in his back pocket :hug:

Good question.

He could go to the Hawthorns and be out of a job in six months ( probably just enough to replace his own replacement at City )

 :shocking:

I reckon if LJ leaves SL. will promote Holden and Macca .

Both known quantities to him and less of a gamble financially. 

Not , initially, terribly exciting for us the fans but who knows maybe the duo could move us up a level.

 

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1 hour ago, archie andrews said:

all the LJ haters prayers may be answered sunday .................hope youre very proud of yourselves ..........

I certainly do not hate Lee Johnson. I've never met him, spoken to him.

But from his management record at Barnsley and City, I do not believe that he is the right person to take City forward, be able to compete consistently at the top end of the Championship. Many of his footballing decisions made this season, do not make sense to me. Thus I don't believe that he's the best we could have in the job.

I want to be entertained, for the club to be successful and to become a fixture in the top league in England. With Lansdown's backing, it should not be impossible. But with three to four months of each season being wasted by inexplicably poor performances and results, that is what I base my opinion on.

There are many who share my frustration at the way he is managing. And we, the same as you, are entitled to our opinions.

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15 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Good question.

He could go to the Hawthorns and be out of a job in six months ( probably just enough to replace his own replacement at City )

 :shocking:

I reckon if LJ leaves SL. will promote Holden and Macca .

Both known quantities to him and less of a gamble financially. 

Not , initially, terribly exciting for us the fans but who knows maybe the duo could move us up a level.

 

Whose to say LJ wouldn’t take them with him. I’m not really aware of West Brom but talk on tv and radio says they expect the person who is doing the job now to be offered it. He may have said he doesn’t want it though, as I said I don’t know much about him. 

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27 minutes ago, RedM said:

Whose to say LJ wouldn’t take them with him. I’m not really aware of West Brom but talk on tv and radio says they expect the person who is doing the job now to be offered it. He may have said he doesn’t want it though, as I said I don’t know much about him. 

I suspect he may well take them with him if he goes - although I have to say that is hugely unlikely in my opinion that he will get that job. I doubt he is remotely interested frankly.

Darren Moore or ' Big Dave' as he is known - nope, me neither.

He is a club legend and would be a hugely popular choice but also a huge risk.

As a club they are a mess, a couple of weeks before Pardew was sacked, the CEO and Chairman were shown the door. They were replaced by their former FD - who, under the previous regime, had himself been given a 'red'.

The utterly bizarre thing I read in an interview with him, was that they would have to borrow money to see this season out - unfucking believable!!

Clearly any fiscal controls were largely ignored in a business that rakes in huge sums.

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11 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

But that's the whole point of perspective.

We have exceeded the expectations that (at a guess) 90% of the fanbase had for this season.

As the season develops, targets can change and when 2nd at the turn of the year then targets can be changed.

But, failing to meet the revised, much higher target, while still comfortably surpassing the original doesn't make a season a disaster.

It means that instead of being a fantastic or great season, it's merely a good or decent one.

I just can’t look at the season of a whole. It’s completely two half’s. 

First half fantastic, great football, great results.

Second half dire, poor football, poor results.  

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I find it weird how some people think...

WBA...a far bigger Club than ourselves, deem LJ a good coach and are interested in his services...

Yet, little ol' Bristol City who have achieved pretty much nothing in it's lifetime are deemed too good for him.

Go figure...

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2 minutes ago, spudski said:

I find it weird how some people think...

WBA...a far bigger Club than ourselves, deem LJ a good coach and are interested in his services...

Yet, little ol' Bristol City who have achieved pretty much nothing in it's lifetime are deemed too good for him.

Go figure...

It would be like when Man Utd signed Ralph Milne or Wigan Dave Cotterill 

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11 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

But that's the whole point of perspective.

We have exceeded the expectations that (at a guess) 90% of the fanbase had for this season.

As the season develops, targets can change and when 2nd at the turn of the year then targets can be changed.

But, failing to meet the revised, much higher target, while still comfortably surpassing the original doesn't make a season a disaster.

It means that instead of being a fantastic or great season, it's merely a good or decent one.

But expectations have been lowered far too much, because of two very poor seasons on returning to the Championship. Brentford before us, then Preston, Barnsley, and now Sheff Utd and Millwall have demonstrated what can be reasonably expected with people doing their jobs competently, properly, following promotion to this league, and that those insisting that what we were served up instead was to be expected because of "parachute payments" and all the clubs with big famous names that we couldn't expect to be above in the table (despite Preston Barnsley Millwall doing just that) were wrong. They were merely excusing incompetence: we're Bristol City, what do you expect?

The season we are having now - finishing 10th or 11th - is what we could easily have enjoyed the first season up, had we been halfway competent off the pitch. It has taken us three attempts to be safely midtable.

Our expectations have been lowered far too much because of incompetence in coaching, management and recruitment. And questionable leadership. 

So, in summary: we have exceeded expectations, because expectations have been revised down, way too low. I think that those that have delivered a better season and league position should be thanked but no more than that. They need to be told: must do better.

 

 

Edited by Jack Dawe
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41 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

It would be like when Man Utd signed Ralph Milne or Wigan Dave Cotterill 

Of course it would...that's why Pep sent down some U21's to train with us, as he was so impressed with our training methods. ;)

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One good thing when LJ eventually leaves is that we can stop reading Spudski and Robbored's irritating positive spin on every bloody thing he does and the anti-LJ posters can shut it as well .

 

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33 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

But expectations have been lowered far too much, because of two very poor seasons on returning to the Championship. Brentford before us, then Preston, Barnsley, and now Sheff Utd and Millwall have demonstrated what can be reasonably expected with people doing their jobs competently, properly, following promotion to this league, and that those insisting that what we were served up instead was to be expected because of "parachute payments" and all the clubs with big famous names that we couldn't expect to be above in the table (despite Preston Barnsley Millwall doing just that) were wrong. They were merely excusing incompetence: we're Bristol City, what do you expect?

The season we are having now - finishing 10th or 11th - is what we could easily have enjoyed the first season up, had we been halfway competent off the pitch. It has taken us three attempts to be safely midtable.

Our expectations have been lowered far too much because of incompetence in coaching, management and recruitment. And questionable leadership. 

So, in summary: we have exceeded expectations, because expectations have been revised down, way too low. I think that those that have delivered a better season and league position should be thanked but no more than that. They need to be told: must do better.

 

 

Oh, so spot on JD.

I’ve hidden behind the "it’s really tough to establish yourself when getting promoted from Lg1" notion since we went up, yet secretly known it’s an excuse because as you mention there are several examples to show it’s not the case.  

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5 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

One good thing when LJ eventually leaves is that we can stop reading Spudski and Robbored's irritating positive spin on every bloody thing he does and the anti-LJ posters can shut it as well .

 

And then that would just leave the majority of the forum... ;-)

 

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12 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

One good thing when LJ eventually leaves is that we can stop reading Spudski and Robbored's irritating positive spin on every bloody thing he does and the anti-LJ posters can shut it as well .

 

Brilliant observation Major!

Whilst we are all entitled to our opinions even if we're not qualified coaches; just supporters of up to nearly seventy years as I am, we appear to be dismissed by some on here as unknowledgeable, incapable and not entitled to our views on what goes on at BCFC

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55 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

But expectations have been lowered far too much, because of two very poor seasons on returning to the Championship. Brentford before us, then Preston, Barnsley, and now Sheff Utd and Millwall have demonstrated what can be reasonably expected with people doing their jobs competently, properly, following promotion to this league, and that those insisting that what we were served up instead was to be expected because of "parachute payments" and all the clubs with big famous names that we couldn't expect to be above in the table (despite Preston Barnsley Millwall doing just that) were wrong. They were merely excusing incompetence: we're Bristol City, what do you expect?

The season we are having now - finishing 10th or 11th - is what we could easily have enjoyed the first season up, had we been halfway competent off the pitch. It has taken us three attempts to be safely midtable.

Our expectations have been lowered far too much because of incompetence in coaching, management and recruitment. And questionable leadership. 

So, in summary: we have exceeded expectations, because expectations have been revised down, way too low. I think that those that have delivered a better season and league position should be thanked but no more than that. They need to be told: must do better.

 

 

Blimey JD....'incompetence in coaching, management and recruitment. And questionable leadership.'

Yet we sit 3 points off Preston, 2 off Millwall, 1 off Brentford, are ahead of Sheff Utd, and Barnsley could get relegated. And we could mathematically still finish 7th and ahead off all of those you mention!!!!!

All within one wins difference over a whole season...and we are that different????:sad26::thumbsup:

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2 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Brilliant observation Major!

Whilst we are all entitled to our opinions even if we're not qualified coaches; just supporters of up to nearly seventy years as I am, we appear to be dismissed by some on here as unknowledgeable, incapable and not entitled to our views on what goes on at BCFC

Funnily enough, without sounding big-headed, I think at times I’ve analysed parts of the game better than the Head Coach himself.  Others have too.  That to me is worrying.  I’m not a qualified coach, I wasn’t that great a player either!

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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Funnily enough, without sounding big-headed, I think at times I’ve analysed parts of the game better than the Head Coach himself.  Others have too.  That to me is worrying.  I’m not a qualified coach, I wasn’t that great a player either!

You have the same qualifications  as the current England manager then.

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1 hour ago, billywedlock said:

It would be like when Man Utd signed Ralph Milne or Wigan Dave Cotterill 

You leave Ralph Milne out of this!! The best pub landlord I've ever had! 

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On 03/05/2018 at 08:08, cidered abroad said:

Good post SX227.

On another thread, I said that clubs like Burnley believe they should always be in the top flight. Whereas Bristol City hope to be.

We are a club that is content being a big fish in a small pond, usually third tier, rather than a little one in the ocean called Division One / Premier League.

I have serious doubts that we will ever change. Plenty of club chairmen have achieved a lot more with a lot less money. Does SL really want it or is he content being a whale in a millpond?

You couldn't have picked a much worse example. Burnley decided against spending big last time they were promoted, got relegated, used the money wisely and are now where they are. If they believed they should always be in the top flight that would never have happened. Their success is down, 99.9%, to Dyche. Some of the on-paper average players they've brought on for cheap who he's worked wonders with Is remarkable.

Edited by Robin1988

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To those who go on about SL's wealth- all true, but the fact is FFP in the current cycle? Well we'd need to go big and go big next season and gamble and win or we could **** it right up.

As for LJ- hope he stays, he's done a fair job but there have been big blunders (the well documented recruitment in January of course, but IMO tactical failings have been a bigger part but anyway).

The key thing for me is though, that we keep all our top players and then we can continue to build. FFP wise, we can do that this summer. The second thing is that he learns tactically and in other ways from parts of the last 2 seasons. 

Just one example:

'Players I can trust'. I admit all in the dressing room probably aren't or weren't great (Tomlin, this year Diony it would seem), and the balance was upset but I hardly think that's conducive to harmony, coming out at intervals with 'players I can trust' in public. His management approach is a mixed bag, but that phrase publicly expressed' 'players I can trust' you're a squad player pushing for a place in the first team, competing would that endear the manager to you? I would suggest maybe not.

As for the teams punching above- IMO.

  • Millwall will drop to lower midtable or midtable next year- managers worth their salt will understand how to play them and that will negate a lot of their strengths. In short, did well this year, won't do as well next.
  • Preston look pretty useful- they have good technical players, some anyway, but also are quite robust. That mixed approach should see them top half IMO and maybe outsiders for playoffs. Probably similar to this and their standard, maybe a bit of a drop off but nothing major.
  • Sheffield United- clearly a decent footballing side, their 3-5-1-1 will cause sides issues next year as it did this. May drop off, but still should be reasonably competitive.
  • Barnsley could go down- over a season they probably are a lower midtable/relegation battling side at this level, taking into account budget etc. Have been since Feb 2017 when they sold a decent chunk of their team when on the fringes of playoffs in the January window!

Brentford are the ones to watch! Looking at their squad, their ability and their age profile- plus their ability to buy, sell at a profit and buy again, would have to think of the sides punching above significantly, they are the real dark horses next year.

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On 02/05/2018 at 12:54, Jack Dawe said:

Cotts "came in" with us second bottom, 23rd, in L1.

Cotts went out with us third bottom, 22nd, in the Championship.

Cheers Cotts!

 

This is how many are judging LJ: 18th, then 17th, now 10th or 11th. Cotts raised us one whole division, and a place, up the football league.

Cheers Cotts!

 

When he arrived, the "short term" was a relegation fight, and L2 if we failed. The "long term" was a Championship relegation fight, and L1 again if we failed. And a £11m (plus add ons) striker amongst the playing assets, plus a centre half he - Cotts - transformed from a "kick it and head it merchant" costing us points into a confident and inspiring club hero worth ten times what we bought him for.

Cheers Cotts!

 

SC picked an academy product - Joe Bryan - over an older, more experienced international, Greg Cunningham.

Cheers Cotts!

 

SC recruited "young, hungry" sorts like Luke Freeman, Luke Ayling and Korey Smith, players that would have scope to improve here and be sold on. As per the club's stated philosophy. Some "long term" ish thinking there.

SC also did some "short term" stuff, things for the here and now, including: quite possibly the best or certainly one of the best "free" signings we have seen in many, many years, in Aaron Wilbraham. And, up until Tammy, one of most successful loan signings, in Matt Smith. Some fair DNA in them two, I would say.

Cheers Cotts!

 

Wade Elliott was another with desirable DNA. But SC selected the younger Marlon Pack ahead of Wade when MP performed better than Wade. Wade Elliott being SC's "long term" favourite, and Marlon Pack being a lad he had sold at Pompey, and many thought he wouldn't "fancy." Not bad for a "stubborn" manager.

Fair play, Cotts!

 

As for "long" and "short" term, after the mistake that was the Adam El Abd deal, SC paid good transfer fees for players of an age where they had scope to deliver a return on that outlay (eg Kodjia, Freeman, Ayling, Korey Smith, Agard) and also brought in experience without spending fees that would not deliver a return or profit (Wilbraham, Elliott). In the January of the promotion season, many on here wanted us to buy a forward (the Irish lad at Chesterfield for one, who went to Preston. Doyle?) to ensure goals and therefore promotion. SC opted not to, often referring to the "owner" and his money and the need to not waste it. 

 

 

The "long term" view of SC, when someone writes the next BCFC book, will be: he won a league - a tinpot league, fair enough - and a cup - also tinpot - double. We haven't won a league, tinpot or otherwise, very often.

Cheers Cotts!

 

The "short term" view might be - yes - he made an absolute mess of the recruitment in the summer of 2015, and then made a bloody horlicks of the first half of our first season up, and was over-ambitious/possibly deluded in pursuit of Gray or Gayle, and he didn't use the kids enough, and he was stubborn and that he was this or that behind the scenes, and a bit of twonk in club interviews, and so on.

 

The balanced view, though, might be that he brought both positives and negatives here, but left us 25 places higher in the football league than when he arrived. Not something we can say about most BCFC managers/head coaches.

I don't expect you, spud, to ackowledge all this or change your mind about SC, someone you dislike personally probably as much as or even more than professionally. I'd speculate that you have a bit of a blind spot, and are prone to confirmation bias, when it comes to SC, as all of us do with someone or other, within football and without, and with ourselves. 

 

But, despite his undoubted many flaws and other negatives, no-one can argue with the fact that he left us 25 places - more than one division - higher in the football pyramid than when he came to us. And unlike the last Labour Govt when they left office, with a few quid profit on Kodjia in the biscuit tin to spend on moving us even higher up the 92.

And for that, Cotts, I say: cheers!

 

And to Lee for shifting us from 22nd to 11th or 10th: Cheers too! 

 

Cheers, spud! :thumbsup:

 

Good post Jack.

However, was it Cotts. who made 'an absolute mess of the recruitment in Summer of 2015', or was it in fact someone else who cocked things up?

I had a brief chat with Cotts. in Millennium Square at the promotion parade.

'Same again next year Cotts?'

'You don't ask for much do you, but I'll tell you this, we'll give it a damn good go' or words to that effect was his reply.

He already had his sights set on Grey and McGuire and went on holiday believing fees and contracts were sorted out and every reason to believe they would be City players on his return.

Something changed while he was away and on his return the deals had been scuppered, we lost out on both, and the squad remained unstrengthened and in disarray as we kicked off in the Championship.

Cotts' plan was to significantly strengthen several key positions while keeping the promotion momentum going by keeping faith with the bulk of the team who, after all, had originally been signed as young improving players who could go on to compete at Championship level.

Cotts avowed intention was indeed to have a damn good go at a double promotion and who knows what would have happened but for the meddling behind his back while he was away which completely thwarted that plan.

 

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2 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Good post Jack.

However, was it Cotts. who made 'an absolute mess of the recruitment in Summer of 2015', or was it in fact someone else who cocked things up?

I had a brief chat with Cotts. in Millennium Square at the promotion parade.

'Same again next year Cotts?'

'You don't ask for much do you, but I'll tell you this, we'll give it a damn good go' or words to that effect was his reply.

He already had his sights set on Grey and McGuire and went on holiday believing fees and contracts were sorted out and every reason to believe they would be City players on his return.

Something changed while he was away and on his return the deals had been scuppered, we lost out on both, and the squad remained unstrengthened and in disarray as we kicked off in the Championship.

Cotts' plan was to significantly strengthen several key positions while keeping the promotion momentum going by keeping faith with the bulk of the team who, after all, had originally been signed as young improving players who could go on to compete at Championship level.

Cotts avowed intention was indeed to have a damn good go at a double promotion and who knows what would have happened but for the meddling behind his back while he was away which completely thwarted that plan.

 

If the above was true, and quite frankly we don't know. So everyone's assumptions mean diddly squat. I think we would of done quite well under Cotts in our first season back.

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12 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Good post Jack.

However, was it Cotts. who made 'an absolute mess of the recruitment in Summer of 2015', or was it in fact someone else who cocked things up?

I had a brief chat with Cotts. in Millennium Square at the promotion parade.

'Same again next year Cotts?'

'You don't ask for much do you, but I'll tell you this, we'll give it a damn good go' or words to that effect was his reply.

He already had his sights set on Grey and McGuire and went on holiday believing fees and contracts were sorted out and every reason to believe they would be City players on his return.

Something changed while he was away and on his return the deals had been scuppered, we lost out on both, and the squad remained unstrengthened and in disarray as we kicked off in the Championship.

Cotts' plan was to significantly strengthen several key positions while keeping the promotion momentum going by keeping faith with the bulk of the team who, after all, had originally been signed as young improving players who could go on to compete at Championship level.

Cotts avowed intention was indeed to have a damn good go at a double promotion and who knows what would have happened but for the meddling behind his back while he was away which completely thwarted that plan.

 

Cotts plan you describe was a great one, I must say.

I also think though it might have been worth keeping Tavernier for depth if we could and maybe even Cunningham for depth and continuity purposes- but Maguire and Gray, what might have been eh...

Did we replace Elliott correctly at that stage? Not sure- still from how we came up, the potential in that young squad, put into a context there is no doubt the summer window was an Annus Horribilis- whoever decided/botched it.

I suppose the only big question mark I have here- did the board perhaps consider the accounts, look freshly at them and think FFP may have been an issue had we signed Maguire and Gray?

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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4 hours ago, archie andrews said:

all the LJ haters prayers may be answered sunday .................hope youre very proud of yourselves ..........

What do you mean exactly? :dunno:

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12 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Good post Jack.

However, was it Cotts. who made 'an absolute mess of the recruitment in Summer of 2015', or was it in fact someone else who cocked things up?

I had a brief chat with Cotts. in Millennium Square at the promotion parade.

'Same again next year Cotts?'

'You don't ask for much do you, but I'll tell you this, we'll give it a damn good go' or words to that effect was his reply.

He already had his sights set on Grey and McGuire and went on holiday believing fees and contracts were sorted out and every reason to believe they would be City players on his return.

Something changed while he was away and on his return the deals had been scuppered, we lost out on both, and the squad remained unstrengthened and in disarray as we kicked off in the Championship.

Cotts' plan was to significantly strengthen several key positions while keeping the promotion momentum going by keeping faith with the bulk of the team who, after all, had originally been signed as young improving players who could go on to compete at Championship level.

Cotts avowed intention was indeed to have a damn good go at a double promotion and who knows what would have happened but for the meddling behind his back while he was away which completely thwarted that plan.

 

Sorry @Jack Dawe - i missed your post that NTB replied to.  Fantastic post, I’m a Cotts fan, but that doesn’t mean you’re not spot on.

Felt a bit nostalgic reading it. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Cotts plan you describe was a great one, I must say.

I also think though it might have been worth keeping Tavernier for depth if we could and maybe even Cunningham for depth and continuity purposes- but Maguire and Gray, what might have been eh...

Did we replace Elliott correctly at that stage? Not sure- still from how we came up, the potential in that young squad, put into a context there is no doubt the summer window was an Annus Horribilis- whoever decided/botched it.

I suppose the only big question mark I have here- did the board perhaps consider the accounts, look freshly at them and think FFP may have been an issue had we signed Maguire and Gray?

We’ve never replaced Wade.....ok, that’s a lie, we did for 8 or 9 games....his name was Gary O’Neil.  His injuries have been a big loss imho

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On ‎02‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 12:54, Jack Dawe said:

Cotts "came in" with us second bottom, 23rd, in L1.

Cotts went out with us third bottom, 22nd, in the Championship.

Cheers Cotts!

 

This is how many are judging LJ: 18th, then 17th, now 10th or 11th. Cotts raised us one whole division, and a place, up the football league.

Cheers Cotts!

 

When he arrived, the "short term" was a relegation fight, and L2 if we failed. The "long term" was a Championship relegation fight, and L1 again if we failed. And a £11m (plus add ons) striker amongst the playing assets, plus a centre half he - Cotts - transformed from a "kick it and head it merchant" costing us points into a confident and inspiring club hero worth ten times what we bought him for.

Cheers Cotts!

 

SC picked an academy product - Joe Bryan - over an older, more experienced international, Greg Cunningham.

Cheers Cotts!

 

SC recruited "young, hungry" sorts like Luke Freeman, Luke Ayling and Korey Smith, players that would have scope to improve here and be sold on. As per the club's stated philosophy. Some "long term" ish thinking there.

SC also did some "short term" stuff, things for the here and now, including: quite possibly the best or certainly one of the best "free" signings we have seen in many, many years, in Aaron Wilbraham. And, up until Tammy, one of most successful loan signings, in Matt Smith. Some fair DNA in them two, I would say.

Cheers Cotts!

 

Wade Elliott was another with desirable DNA. But SC selected the younger Marlon Pack ahead of Wade when MP performed better than Wade. Wade Elliott being SC's "long term" favourite, and Marlon Pack being a lad he had sold at Pompey, and many thought he wouldn't "fancy." Not bad for a "stubborn" manager.

Fair play, Cotts!

 

As for "long" and "short" term, after the mistake that was the Adam El Abd deal, SC paid good transfer fees for players of an age where they had scope to deliver a return on that outlay (eg Kodjia, Freeman, Ayling, Korey Smith, Agard) and also brought in experience without spending fees that would not deliver a return or profit (Wilbraham, Elliott). In the January of the promotion season, many on here wanted us to buy a forward (the Irish lad at Chesterfield for one, who went to Preston. Doyle?) to ensure goals and therefore promotion. SC opted not to, often referring to the "owner" and his money and the need to not waste it. 

 

 

The "long term" view of SC, when someone writes the next BCFC book, will be: he won a league - a tinpot league, fair enough - and a cup - also tinpot - double. We haven't won a league, tinpot or otherwise, very often.

Cheers Cotts!

 

The "short term" view might be - yes - he made an absolute mess of the recruitment in the summer of 2015, and then made a bloody horlicks of the first half of our first season up, and was over-ambitious/possibly deluded in pursuit of Gray or Gayle, and he didn't use the kids enough, and he was stubborn and that he was this or that behind the scenes, and a bit of twonk in club interviews, and so on.

 

The balanced view, though, might be that he brought both positives and negatives here, but left us 25 places higher in the football league than when he arrived. Not something we can say about most BCFC managers/head coaches.

I don't expect you, spud, to ackowledge all this or change your mind about SC, someone you dislike personally probably as much as or even more than professionally. I'd speculate that you have a bit of a blind spot, and are prone to confirmation bias, when it comes to SC, as all of us do with someone or other, within football and without, and with ourselves. 

 

But, despite his undoubted many flaws and other negatives, no-one can argue with the fact that he left us 25 places - more than one division - higher in the football pyramid than when he came to us. And unlike the last Labour Govt when they left office, with a few quid profit on Kodjia in the biscuit tin to spend on moving us even higher up the 92.

And for that, Cotts, I say: cheers!

 

And to Lee for shifting us from 22nd to 11th or 10th: Cheers too! 

 

Cheers, spud! :thumbsup:

 

A fair enough post, however Cotts basically went out and bought the best players in the league, and was able to do that because in League 1 Bristol City are the "big boys".

It's a very very different scenario in the Championship, where Bristol City are a small fish in a large pond, that is getting increasingly bigger every year.

So to try and compare success rates of different managers, in very different situations, is extremely difficult. 

Edited by ooRya
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