Carlos?

[ExiledAjax]

Plenty of people calling for LJ to go.  Whilst that is not what I would want to see happen, I wonder whether people would want someone like Carvahal to come in?

Two successive play-off seasons with Wednesday, then coming oh so very close to saving Swansea's season.  Could we get him? Would we want him?

[Top Robin]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

Plenty of people calling for LJ to go.  Whilst that is not what I would want to see happen, I wonder whether people would want someone like Carvahal to come in?

Two successive play-off seasons with Wednesday, then coming oh so very close to saving Swansea's season.  Could we get him? Would we want him?

I would......so to speak! 

[Lrrr]

No, after his honeymoon period with Swansea it's been poor. The tactics aren't working and I know some people who work over there and aren't surprised they're going down. 

[cidered abroad]

10 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Plenty of people calling for LJ to go.  Whilst that is not what I would want to see happen, I wonder whether people would want someone like Carvahal to come in?

Two successive play-off seasons with Wednesday, then coming oh so very close to saving Swansea's season.  Could we get him? Would we want him?

If I was Lansdown, I would give it serious consideration. Continental managers are used to the head coach scenario because that is how most are run. He would be very used to the necessary progression of Academy prospects. 

[ExiledAjax]

I'd be interested in what @Owl Visiting might say. Was he a victim of his own success when he finally went?

[LondonBristolian]

I'd have no problem with it. He is no more and no less of a gamble than anyone we might bring in.  At the same time, I do not expect us to change manager during the close season so it is all a bit hypothetical.

Hopefully the summer will see us reshape the squad, get the belief back and come firing out the blocks in August. If not, I suspect the relevant question is who is available come October...

[Super]

Think I would even take Carlos The Jackal at the moment.

[ExiledAjax]

@LondonBristolian oh completely hypothetical, and tbh I'm happy to give LJ more time.  Just wondered what people would think about that hypothetical situation.  Personally I'd much rather have Carvahal than Big Mick - which was another name being thrown around.

[BRISTOL86]

He’s only marginally more successful at this level than Johnson.

Unless it’s for an incredibly accomplished manager with an infinitely better track record, I can’t see why you’d rip it all up for what on paper is only a very modest improvement on what you already have. 

 

[ScottishRed]

There is not a vacancy, nor is there likely to be.

[Andy082005]

1 hour ago, BRISTOL86 said:

He’s only marginally more successful at this level than Johnson.

Unless it’s for an incredibly accomplished manager with an infinitely better track record, I can’t see why you’d rip it all up for what on paper is only a very modest improvement on what you already have. 

 

Believe it or not...I actually agree with you 

Would rather persist with LJ more so then someone like him, who I don't believe is much better

[BRISTOL86]

15 minutes ago, Andy082005 said:

Believe it or not...I actually agree with you 

Would rather persist with LJ more so then someone like him, who I don't believe is much better

I think because of the bad runs we’ve experienced it actually really distorts people’s view of our ‘return’ under Johnson for want of a better word. 

1.4PPG (better metric than win rate IMO) in his tenure including the two terrible barren runs. Actually a very respectable return considering just how bad those two runs are and as good or better than several names you see bandied about as desirable replacements. 

Unless you had the opportunity to get a manager of real different calibre in (ie someone with a proven track record of delivering promotions) then why uproot everything for what’s essentially pretty much like for like? Would make no sense at all. 

2PPG is automatic promotion, 1.6 is playoffs. We’re close to that top six bracket on the evidence so far. 

Whats needed is to identify the cause of those runs and do what needs to be done to ensure that the slump gets arrested quicker than 10-20 games. 

An extra 0.2 PPG is only another 9 points. We’re eseentially 3 wins out of 46 away from being a playoff side. 

Seeing out the wins vs Sunderland, Leeds and Hull would have given us 6 of those 9. Fine margins. 

[downendcity]

24 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I think because of the bad runs we’ve experienced it actually really distorts people’s view of our ‘return’ under Johnson for want of a better word. 

1.4PPG (better metric than win rate IMO) in his tenure including the two terrible barren runs. Actually a very respectable return considering just how bad those two runs are and as good or better than several names you see bandied about as desirable replacements. 

Unless you had the opportunity to get a manager of real different calibre in (ie someone with a proven track record of delivering promotions) then why uproot everything for what’s essentially pretty much like for like? Would make no sense at all. 

2PPG is automatic promotion, 1.6 is playoffs. We’re close to that top six bracket on the evidence so far. 

Whats needed is to identify the cause of those runs and do what needs to be done to ensure that the slump gets arrested quicker than 10-20 games. 

An extra 0.2 PPG is only another 9 points. We’re eseentially 3 wins out of 46 away from being a playoff side. 

Seeing out the wins vs Sunderland, Leeds and Hull would have given us 6 of those 9. Fine margins. 

Far too rational and balanced for this forum Bristol86.

 

[Owl Visiting]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

I'd be interested in what @Owl Visiting might say. Was he a victim of his own success when he finally went?

Thanks for the prod. This post has ended up ludicrously long, apologies for all the waffle that follows.

We had a brilliant first season under Carlos, finishing 6th and making the playoff final. This was very exciting at the time as since we'd been relegated from the Prem in 2000 we'd only managed 1 top half Championship finish. Had 2 spells in League One and went through some terrible periods off the pitch during which previous owners began legal action against several of its own fans.

After 20 years of being skint and coming very close to administration twice, Milan Mandaric arrived and steadied the club, he sold us to our current owner Dejphon Chansiri who quickly promised Premier League football and soon after appointed Carlos. Players like Forestieri, Hooper and Bannan joined and took us from a mid table side to the top 6 with the spine of the team remaining largely unchanged with lesser known players like Lees, Lee, Hutchinson, Westwood and Loovens. Another dozen or so new players arrived, quite a few from Portugal. Most did very little, a couple never even kicked a ball. Despite the positive season, the signs of poor transfer dealings and wasted money were there. 

That summer after missing out in the playoff final, Stephen Fletcher joined (reportedly on 30k a week) Abdi, Reach, Jones, Winall and Rhodes were signed (some in January) for a combined total of around 20 million. Unfortunately these signings had little impact, partly due to Carlos' bizarre reluctance to give his own new signings a chance. Instead choosing to continue playing his more favoured yet out of form players. After reaching the playoffs once again, 10 of the 11 that started the previous season's final lined up in the semi finals against Huddersfield. After two really poor performances Huddersfield deservedly went through on penalties. Despite once again going close, the fans questioned whether we'd made any progress and that Carlos had ran out of ideas and taken us as far as he could.

Due to the excessive spending of the previous 2 seasons, the owner admitted we were very close to our FFP limit but that he believed we had enough to mount another promotion challenge. We'd now got the striking options of Forestieri, Hooper, Fletcher, Rhodes, Winall, Nuhiu, Matias and Joao. Despite the ludicrous striker surplus we'd only got 2 centre backs, one being Glenn Loovens who despite his great service was past his best.

For the third consecutive season under Carlos we had a slow start, with an unnamed player complaining that pre-season training under Carvalhal "wasn't anywhere near hard or intense enough". Yet again a couple of summer signings that had joined on a free or loan (even the highly regarded George Boyd) were not given a chance, with Carlos preferring to play his favourites out of position. We had become increasingly negative and defensive over the previous 2 seasons, finding goals hard to come by. This was particularly frustrating when you look at the strong attacking options available and the really positive attacking football we played in his first year. The worst injury crisis possibly in the club's history arrived, with virtually all the first team out for long periods. Our form inevitably suffered. Carlos was blamed for a poor pre-season and for a lack of fitness in general, with his philosophy being tactically and ball work focused and that fitness wasn't a big priority. We slipped down the bottom half but Carlos insisted we'd still be promoted, this annoyed the fans because it was becoming clear that relegation was becoming a more likely scenario.

After 7 games without a win, he left the club on Christmas Eve with us 15th in the table. It was initially reported he was sacked but he insisted it was mutually agreed between him and the owner. 4 days later of course he was appointed at Swansea, creating the question as to his motives for leaving Wednesday. Of course most of those complaining he'd left to take the job were the same ones that had been calling for him to be sacked all season. 

His time at Swansea now also appears to be over, and whilst his tenure was short there were a lot of similarities to his time at Wednesday. Excellent wins against Liverpool and Arsenal, getting the fans on board, creating a good feeling at the club with admirers in the press, all seemed so similar to our first season under him. The poor form, negative tactics and lack of plan B that followed unfortunately was also very familiar, particularly the clueless performances against Man City and Southampton, which reminded me of our last few games he had at Hillsborough. When you look back at his record the pattern appears to repeat itself again and again, which is why he barely stays at a club beyond a year.

As a person I really like Carlos, he's a nice guy and its a shame to see how disrespectful many Wednesday fans are about him now. But despite 2 good seasons under him it was time for him to move on.

[Cider red]

14 minutes ago, Owl Visiting said:

Thanks for the prod. This post has ended up ludicrously long, apologies for all the waffle that follows.

We had a brilliant first season under Carlos, finishing 6th and making the playoff final. This was very exciting at the time as since we'd been relegated from the Prem in 2000 we'd only managed 1 top half Championship finish. Had 2 spells in League One and went through some terrible periods off the pitch during which previous owners began legal action against several of its own fans.

After 20 years of being skint and coming very close to administration twice, Milan Mandaric arrived and steadied the club, he sold us to our current owner Dejphon Chansiri who quickly promised Premier League football and soon after appointed Carlos. Players like Forestieri, Hooper and Bannan joined and took us from a mid table side to the top 6 with the spine of the team remaining largely unchanged with lesser known players like Lees, Lee, Hutchinson, Westwood and Loovens. Another dozen or so new players arrived, quite a few from Portugal. Most did very little, a couple never even kicked a ball. Despite the positive season, the signs of poor transfer dealings and wasted money were there. 

That summer after missing out in the playoff final, Stephen Fletcher joined (reportedly on 30k a week) Abdi, Reach, Jones, Winall and Rhodes were signed (some in January) for a combined total of around 20 million. Unfortunately these signings had little impact, partly due to Carlos' bizarre reluctance to give his own new signings a chance. Instead choosing to continue playing his more favoured yet out of form players. After reaching the playoffs once again, 10 of the 11 that started the previous season's final lined up in the semi finals against Huddersfield. After two really poor performances Huddersfield deservedly went through on penalties. Despite once again going close, the fans questioned whether we'd made any progress and that Carlos had ran out of ideas and taken us as far as he could.

Due to the excessive spending of the previous 2 seasons, the owner admitted we were very close to our FFP limit but that he believed we had enough to mount another promotion challenge. We'd now got the striking options of Forestieri, Hooper, Fletcher, Rhodes, Winall, Nuhiu, Matias and Joao. Despite the ludicrous striker surplus we'd only got 2 centre backs, one being Glenn Loovens who despite his great service was past his best.

For the third consecutive season under Carlos we had a slow start, with an unnamed player complaining that pre-season training under Carvalhal "wasn't anywhere near hard or intense enough". Yet again a couple of summer signings that had joined on a free or loan (even the highly regarded George Boyd) were not given a chance, with Carlos preferring to play his favourites out of position. We had become increasingly negative and defensive over the previous 2 seasons, finding goals hard to come by. This was particularly frustrating when you look at the strong attacking options available and the really positive attacking football we played in his first year. The worst injury crisis possibly in the club's history arrived, with virtually all the first team out for long periods. Our form inevitably suffered. Carlos was blamed for a poor pre-season and for a lack of fitness in general, with his philosophy being tactically and ball work focused and that fitness wasn't a big priority. We slipped down the bottom half but Carlos insisted we'd still be promoted, this annoyed the fans because it was becoming clear that relegation was becoming a more likely scenario.

After 7 games without a win, he left the club on Christmas Eve with us 15th in the table. It was initially reported he was sacked but he insisted it was mutually agreed between him and the owner. 4 days later of course he was appointed at Swansea, creating the question as to his motives for leaving Wednesday. Of course most of those complaining he'd left to take the job were the same ones that had been calling for him to be sacked all season. 

His time at Swansea now also appears to be over, and whilst his tenure was short there were a lot of similarities to his time at Wednesday. Excellent wins against Liverpool and Arsenal, getting the fans on board, creating a good feeling at the club with admirers in the press, all seemed so similar to our first season under him. The poor form, negative tactics and lack of plan B that followed unfortunately was also very familiar, particularly the clueless performances against Man City and Southampton, which reminded me of our last few games he had at Hillsborough. When you look back at his record the pattern appears to repeat itself again and again, which is why he barely stays at a club beyond a year.

As a person I really like Carlos, he's a nice guy and its a shame to see how disrespectful many Wednesday fans are about him now. But despite 2 good seasons under him it was time for him to move on.

Poor form; lack of plan B sounds incredibly similar! We've endured 2 half seasons of 3/4 wins!!

[Robbored]

Yet another tedious anti LJ thread.............

[Slippin cider]

Carvalhal to leave Swansea at the end of season

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44064957

[WolfOfWestStreet]

3 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

There is not a vacancy, nor is there likely to be.

The sad truth. 

[robin_unreliant]

25 minutes ago, Cider red said:

Poor form; lack of plan B sounds incredibly similar! We've endured 2 half seasons of 3/4 wins!!

Signs £20m of players then bizarrely refuses to play them.

Thought I was reading an LJ review too!!

[ExiledAjax]

4 hours ago, Owl Visiting said:

After 20 years of being skint and coming very close to administration twice, Milan Mandaric arrived and steadied the club, he sold us to our current owner Dejphon Chansiri who quickly promised Premier League football and soon after appointed Carlos. Players like Forestieri, Hooper and Bannan joined and took us from a mid table side to the top 6 with the spine of the team remaining largely unchanged with lesser known players like Lees, Lee, Hutchinson, Westwood and Loovens. Another dozen or so new players arrived, quite a few from Portugal. Most did very little, a couple never even kicked a ball. Despite the positive season, the signs of poor transfer dealings and wasted money were there. 

That summer after missing out in the playoff final, Stephen Fletcher joined (reportedly on 30k a week) Abdi, Reach, Jones, Winall and Rhodes were signed (some in January) for a combined total of around 20 million. Unfortunately these signings had little impact, partly due to Carlos' bizarre reluctance to give his own new signings a chance. Instead choosing to continue playing his more favoured yet out of form players. After reaching the playoffs once again, 10 of the 11 that started the previous season's final lined up in the semi finals against Huddersfield. After two really poor performances Huddersfield deservedly went through on penalties. Despite once again going close, the fans questioned whether we'd made any progress and that Carlos had ran out of ideas and taken us as far as he could.

Thanks for replying with an informative post.  Hate to say it but I can see very similar words (bar a few name changes) being written about LJ and City in a few years' time.  It's interesting to hear from a fan of a team that went for it, that signed big names and a foreign manager,  but that was, perhaps at heart, still a L1 team (not club - I have the utmost respect for SW - but team).  

I doubt we'll ever appoint Carvahal, but if LJ does go then he's the kind of manager I would hope we would look at, despite your warning from history.

[ExiledAjax]

4 hours ago, Robbored said:

Yet another tedious anti LJ thread.............

Thank you for your constructive contribution to a simple hypothetical discussion.

[Robbored]

12 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Thank you for your constructive contribution to a simple hypothetical discussion.

A discussion with a not so well disguised hidden agenda.

[Olé]

Carvahal is engaging if nothing else but he has always been the character rather than the winner in Portugal - taking the more unconventional route of going via Greece etc and never sticking anywhere very long.

Unless Everton go back and have another go for him, I'd take Marco (Silva) in a flash - he took a smallwe team outside Lisbon a stones throw from where I grew up, from second tier to Europe in a couple of years.

To my knowledge he's out of work since the Watford gig, although there's a decent chance that he will get the Benfica job this summer if Vitoria gets the boot. Personally he would show ambition to me. A leader  He's only ever worked with limited resources.

[Mr Popodopolous]

49 minutes ago, Olé said:

Carvahal is engaging if nothing else but he has always been the character rather than the winner in Portugal - taking the more unconventional route of going via Greece etc and never sticking anywhere very long.

Unless Everton go back and have another go for him, I'd take Marco (Silva) in a flash - he took a smallwe team outside Lisbon a stones throw from where I grew up, from second tier to Europe in a couple of years.

To my knowledge he's out of work since the Watford gig, although there's a decent chance that he will get the Benfica job this summer if Vitoria gets the boot. Personally he would show ambition to me. A leader  He's only ever worked with limited resources.

Talking about Silva?

When reading this thread a name that jumped out? Silva.

There won't be a vacancy here this summer- but if there was, he would be high on my wish list. He's got a lot of attributes to become a high quality manager IMO, also think his sacking by Watford harsh.

Carvalhal? Probably not- he's did pretty well at Sheffield Wednesdays but this season poor. He then did brilliantly at Swansea for maybe 2 and a half months- but in both cases he wasn't able to finish the job, to get the side over the line.

[Olé]

57 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Talking about Silva?

Yes mate. I'm massively biased but he's my answer to that retort "if you don't want LJ then who" (because apparently we all want Colin or Garry Monk, and therefore we should all be surrendering to the fact that LJ is as good as it gets and worth years more of sponsored trial and error). My answer to that is that there is actually someone out there now, available, and clearly better than LJ (sorry LJ) and his name is Marco Silva.

Saw him (with a few City mates) playing full back for Estoril in the second tier 10 years ago, and he went on to manage the team (average attendances in the low 4 figures) and take them to the top flight and Europe, where they drew away at Sevilla under him and were beating teams like Panathanaiakos (I was there) at home. He had a phenomenal record of carving out extraordinary results away from home with very average players.

He is a leader. He commands fierce loyalty from players. His teams tend to play with Cardiff levels of fearlessness but without the shite football. At the same time he's also not in the Mourinho school of arrogance. He's quietly spoken and sensible. He did well at Hull, and then again at Watford before the wheels came off. He's the opposite of LJ -  the first thing he builds is team, way before he thinks about the very long shopping list.

[ExiledAjax]

On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 12:34, ExiledAjax said:

Whilst that is not what I would want to see happen

 

23 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

I'm happy to give LJ more time

@Robbored I've not hidden it very well then have I. Check any post I've ever made. Don't think I have once called for LJ to go.

To be clear: I like him, I think he's right for the club at this time.

I am disappointed at the past few months and wanted to scope out whether someone such as Carlos Carvahal might be thought a suitable replacement if and when LJ does eventually leave.

Do you have an opinion on Carvahal? If so please do share it.

[Robin Ashton]

Have none of you ever seen him interviewed!?

[spudski]

22 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I think because of the bad runs we’ve experienced it actually really distorts people’s view of our ‘return’ under Johnson for want of a better word. 

1.4PPG (better metric than win rate IMO) in his tenure including the two terrible barren runs. Actually a very respectable return considering just how bad those two runs are and as good or better than several names you see bandied about as desirable replacements. 

Unless you had the opportunity to get a manager of real different calibre in (ie someone with a proven track record of delivering promotions) then why uproot everything for what’s essentially pretty much like for like? Would make no sense at all. 

2PPG is automatic promotion, 1.6 is playoffs. We’re close to that top six bracket on the evidence so far. 

Whats needed is to identify the cause of those runs and do what needs to be done to ensure that the slump gets arrested quicker than 10-20 games. 

An extra 0.2 PPG is only another 9 points. We’re eseentially 3 wins out of 46 away from being a playoff side. 

Seeing out the wins vs Sunderland, Leeds and Hull would have given us 6 of those 9. Fine margins. 

And that's why LJ is being linked to other sides to manage.

The rest of the footballing world can see his potential, and have taken into account the reasons that led to our form after January.

You don't get linked to bigger clubs than us, and have people like Pep singing your praises and sending u21's down to train with us, if you are useless.

When talking to fans and others in the game at other clubs, they all sing praise about LJ ( maybe not Barnsley :laugh: ) and what nice football we play...yet many of our own fans are completely negative about him.

As you say fine margins...if it hadn't been for the amount of injuries, and the poor recruitment in January, things may have turned out a lot better than they ended.

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 hours ago, Olé said:

Yes mate. I'm massively biased but he's my answer to that retort "if you don't want LJ then who" (because apparently we all want Colin or Garry Monk, and therefore we should all be surrendering to the fact that LJ is as good as it gets and worth years more of sponsored trial and error). My answer to that is that there is actually someone out there now, available, and clearly better than LJ (sorry LJ) and his name is Marco Silva.

Saw him (with a few City mates) playing full back for Estoril in the second tier 10 years ago, and he went on to manage the team (average attendances in the low 4 figures) and take them to the top flight and Europe, where they drew away at Sevilla under him and were beating teams like Panathanaiakos (I was there) at home. He had a phenomenal record of carving out extraordinary results away from home with very average players.

He is a leader. He commands fierce loyalty from players. His teams tend to play with Cardiff levels of fearlessness but without the shite football. At the same time he's also not in the Mourinho school of arrogance. He's quietly spoken and sensible. He did well at Hull, and then again at Watford before the wheels came off. He's the opposite of LJ -  the first thing he builds is team, way before he thinks about the very long shopping list.



Personally, I think Watford's loss- and tbh a lot of that was self-inflicted by him if the stuff about his head being turned by Everton was all accurate- will be someone else's gain.

[alexukhc]

What was the name of that Carlos bloke we had in at the academy? Good mates with Tinnion, what’s he doing now?