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VITAL TO GET BALANCE RIGHT - JOHNSON


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42 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@spudski to some extent he is saying it as it is, or at least how he sees it and I like his honesty. But I think the bit that is missing is his own understanding of it, why are they like that, why the players aren’t performing. 

He’s read all the books, visited all the industries to benchmark, but if you can’t analyse the situation, assimilate the info and then prescribe the right change, then you’re gonna come across as someone who looks like they don’t know what they’re doing. 

This leads on to @Olé and I think he’s missing one of two things. 

1. A mentor - not Pep or Jose or Brian Marwood, but some there on a day to day basis. A SoD type?

2. A playing career at a better level than he had - it is not something I criticise LJ for being an average (at best) Championship career, but it means he has little to fall back on when dealing with those players who have played at better levels. GON, Tomlin, etc. If you don’t get them onside you’re gonna struggle when they roll their eyes at your suggestions. Of course there are plenty who overcome this, Jose himself. You’ve either got that “bollox, I’m in charge” confidence or you haven’t. I don’t think LJ has. The little jokes at his own expense, great show of humility, but not what you want your leader to be coming out with. 

Perhaps that 20% he’s moved towards the millennials is a sign of that too. He’s not leading, he’s trying to be more like his players. 

Shall we have a poll to see if I should sit in the stands. If you believe it’s right, do it. 

Nit picking?  No, just another set of examples of his immaturity in his development curve. 

My question is, when does his development curve start to plateau?  Has it already?

In answer to your penultimate question, I expect after he has been fired by us ! 

:disapointed2se:

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40 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes. See post #52

It's not you being thick, it's LJ

Surely people can use their logic to see that there is a difference in outlook to those born in 1981 compared to those born in 1996?

So much has happened in change and the world in a very short time.

Change happening quicker than any time before.

 

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

 

@Olé and @Mr Popodopolous

Watch that video I posted fellas...it really is well put together and explains many things. It's worth watch and shows it's not the 'snowflake' generations fault.

I've seen that video before.. It's just an opinion though. You're writing about it as if it's factual!

I agree with Ole and Mr. Pop. Whilst certain generations will tend to share certain traits, it's wrong to generalise.

 

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14 minutes ago, spudski said:

'Demonise players, kids and parents'...really?

I think it's more the way you've read it, with a pre conceived idea....which is what seems to happen on here a lot.

Why bring it down to personal failings?

The coach's all discussed ways of improving and confronting an 'issue'. Call it a problem or whatever....the coach's as well as the organisation were all looking to improve their coaching. In all aspects.

'Problems' arise...so coach's look to find a solution.

Why you've got to be so pedantic and talk in terms more akin to reading out of your coaching manual is beyond me.

What you fail to realise, is that society has failed this generation.

Instead of trying to fix it, all you are suggesting and others, is we deal with it and stick a plaster over it, instead of getting to the source of the problem and changing and fixing that.

It's like having a Cancer, ignoring what's causing it, and just giving you something to make you feel better, instead of curing it or cutting it out.

Our Generation are failing the younger generation by allowing these things to happen and grow.

It's our fault. We've buggered it up and created this culture.

If it wasn't a problem...no one would be talking about it, terms like 'snowflakes' wouldn't exist, and meetings, conversations and organisations wouldn't be looking in to confronting and dealing with the issue.

Perhaps your personal failing as a coach is that you've just gone along with the whole ethos of sticking plasters over what we've created instead of fixing it.

 

Almost demonise. Others have picked upon your use of snowflake generation. I have commented before on how dimly you view todays youth and their parents. It is a negative theme. 

You use words like cancer and problems and I will use words like challenge, exciting and privilege. Away from the topic of Lee Johnson it is an exciting privilege to be a coach entrusted by parents to coach their Sons. Altering attitudes are an exciting challenge. A positive theme.

Again away from the topic of Lee Johnson by being enthusiastic, positive and proactive we/you alter the ills you see at least in football via its coaching. 

Being positive and enthusiastic in regards to coaching the snowflake generation is not coming across in the tone of your posting at all

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15 minutes ago, spudski said:

Surely people can use their logic to see that there is a difference in outlook to those born in 1981 compared to those born in 1996?

So much has happened in change and the world in a very short time.

Change happening quicker than any time before.

 

An excellent excuse to resurrect this

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1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I've seen that video before.. It's just an opinion though. You're writing about it as if it's factual!

I agree with Ole and Mr. Pop. Whilst certain generations will tend to share certain traits, it's wrong to generalise.

 

I've said in my posts that it's not everyone mate, however stereotypes occur because it's a general and common occurrence.

 

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Almost demonise. Others have picked upon your use of snowflake generation. I have commented before on how dimly you view todays youth and their parents. It is a negative theme. 

You use words like cancer and problems and I will use words like challenge, exciting and privilege. Away from the topic of Lee Johnson it is an exciting privilege to be a coach entrusted by parents to coach their Sons. Altering attitudes are an exciting challenge. A positive theme.

Again away from the topic of Lee Johnson by being enthusiastic, positive and proactive we/you alter the ills you see at least in football via its coaching. 

Being positive and enthusiastic in regards to coaching the snowflake generation is not coming across in the tone of your posting at all

Being proactive and enthusiastic and being challenged by trying to find a positive solution and realising mistakes have been made is also a positive. You see it as a negative. Just ignoring that mistakes have been made is no good for man or beast. Our generation has Ballsed up...and now we congratulate ourselves by seeing it as an exciting challenge to work with it? You see it one way, I see it another. If you can't see we have a massive problem of a generation full of anxiety, depression, more attempted suicides, being offended, no confidence, poor communication skills etc, then you have your head in the sand. It's all over news and media and a hot topic of discussion. The challenge is to fix it, not just let it continue and find ways of working with it, that just created a downward spiral.

A massive problem is our generation don't want to own up or apologise to the fact we've allowed it to happen

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34 minutes ago, spudski said:

Surely people can use their logic to see that there is a difference in outlook to those born in 1981 compared to those born in 1996?

So much has happened in change and the world in a very short time.

Change happening quicker than any time before.

Being a millennial born around 1981 and mixing with a lot of people born around 1996, I honestly don't think there is a significant difference in outlook between people born in that short 15 year period. That's why we're all bunged into the same category of 'millennials' or 'generation Y'. Most of the social problems/opportunities and everything else in life that has impacted upon me, impacts on people born in the 90s too.

What is strange is that LJ thinks he is from some sort of different era to his younger players and as a result struggles to communicate with them. Particularly puzzling given he makes such a big play on all of the new technology he uses. He has obviously made a faux pas in his use of the word millennial; not realising he himself is one!

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

'Demonise players, kids and parents'...really?

I think it's more the way you've read it, with a pre conceived idea....which is what seems to happen on here a lot.

Why bring it down to personal failings?

The coach's all discussed ways of improving and confronting an 'issue'. Call it a problem or whatever....the coach's as well as the organisation were all looking to improve their coaching. In all aspects.

'Problems' arise...so coach's look to find a solution.

Why you've got to be so pedantic and talk in terms more akin to reading out of your coaching manual is beyond me.

What you fail to realise, is that society has failed this generation.

Instead of trying to fix it, all you are suggesting and others, is we deal with it and stick a plaster over it, instead of getting to the source of the problem and changing and fixing that.

It's like having a Cancer, ignoring what's causing it, and just giving you something to make you feel better, instead of curing it or cutting it out.

Our Generation are failing the younger generation by allowing these things to happen and grow.

It's our fault. We've buggered it up and created this culture.

If it wasn't a problem...no one would be talking about it, terms like 'snowflakes' wouldn't exist, and meetings, conversations and organisations wouldn't be looking in to confronting and dealing with the issue.

Perhaps your personal failing as a coach is that you've just gone along with the whole ethos of sticking plasters over what we've created instead of fixing it.

 

How are you fixing it? Bit of advice if you are going to coach in South Bristol or most places dont go steaming in like you do on here calling people snowflakes!!

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7 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Being a millennial born around 1981 and mixing with a lot of people born around 1996, I honestly don't think there is a significant difference in outlook between people born in that short 15 year period. That's why we're all bunged into the same category of 'millennials' or 'generation Y'. Most of the social problems/opportunities and everything else in life that has impacted upon me, impacts on people born in the 90s too.

What is strange is that LJ thinks he is from some sort of different era to his younger players and as a result struggles to communicate with them. Particularly puzzling given he makes such a big play on all of the new technology he uses. He has obviously made a faux pas in his use of the word millennial; not realising he himself is one!

Don't you think it's all being a bit pedantic though?

When he was coached it would have been different to now.

As he said before...the attitude with players in the 2008 squad were totally different to today.

How do you show love and compassion and only show the positives to young people in coaching etc...when you are basically asking them to go to war for 90 mins, coming up against older players with experience who will be in your face shouting at you, giving you abuse, kicking lumps out of you, telling you what they are going to do to you etc.

The two don't go hand in hand. What we are experiencing socially in day to day life of a softly softly approach, which you and me live nowadays, is completely different to the experience the players have in a match.

Take the softly softly approach which these young players experience every day in life like we do, then expect them to change when playing football. How does that work?

It's harder...and we've seen it first hand in our football this season. No one taking charge, no one being a leader. No one in the face of the opposition. We play nice football, but when that leadership and war attitude is needed, we fail. Too soft. That's where the problem lies.

 

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8 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

How are you fixing it? Bit of advice if you are going to coach in South Bristol or most places dont go steaming in like you do on here calling people snowflakes!!

The 'snowflake generation' is a term to generalise. Not something I use in day to day speech. It's a term to use to easily identify on here what generation we are talking about.

Millenials...snowflakes...whatever...but if I use those terms you understand easily what generation I'm talking about.

And who have I called on here a 'snowflake'?

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According to transfer markt website, our "group" were the sixth youngest "young group" in the Championship, at an average age of 25.2 years.

Younger still were the "groups" at Wolves (24.9) Preston (24.9) and Brentford (24.4). Fulham had the advantage of an "older group" than us, therefore being easier to shout at etc, average age there: 25.3 years.

So if it is a problem - across the board - managing these kiddies, then it is, or was, a problem that Alex Neil, Dean Cox and the bloke at Wolves managed better than our Lee. 

 

Alex Neil, though, is two days younger than Lee, so perhaps he has an advantage over him there. 

 

Alex Neil has managed 234 games, and has two promotions under his belt. He finished higher than Lee last season with fewer resources and transfer windows.

Lee has managed 277 games. Can we give him one promotion (at Barnsley) to go under his belt?

 

 

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8 minutes ago, spudski said:

The 'snowflake generation' is a term to generalise. Not something I use in day to day speech. It's a term to use to easily identify on here what generation we are talking about.

Millenials...snowflakes...whatever...but if I use those terms you understand easily what generation I'm talking about.

And who have I called on here a 'snowflake'?

You haven't called anybody a snowflake but use the term. You have been above strong in the past when people disagreed with you on otib. So I was asking how do you fix it? What style do you use? How do you dress criticism up for players? Young and younger?

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13 minutes ago, spudski said:

Don't you think it's all being a bit pedantic though?

When he was coached it would have been different to now.

As he said before...the attitude with players in the 2008 squad were totally different to today.

How do you show love and compassion and only show the positives to young people in coaching etc...when you are basically asking them to go to war for 90 mins, coming up against older players with experience who will be in your face shouting at you, giving you abuse, kicking lumps out of you, telling you what they are going to do to you etc.

The two don't go hand in hand. What we are experiencing socially in day to day life of a softly softly approach, which you and me live nowadays, is completely different to the experience the players have in a match.

Take the softly softly approach which these young players experience every day in life like we do, then expect them to change when playing football. How does that work?

It's harder...and we've seen it first hand in our football this season. No one taking charge, no one being a leader. No one in the face of the opposition. We play nice football, but when that leadership and war attitude is needed, we fail. Too soft. That's where the problem lies.

 

Each decade changes. Football in 2008 was different. 

You made a point recently about how few tackles were made in games now, you frequently make a point about football being chess. It is not war like. No lumps are kicked out anymore. No Gows, no Dave Martins ... 

How do you show love and compassion and only show the positives to young people in coaching etc ... Not love and compassion. Try respect. You use the skills you should have learned via your own football education. I do not think I have ever (very young kids apart) seen a coaching approach that does not involve delivering negatives at some point, but I have seen many ideas that focus on methods that do in a positive manner. Again that is in the hands of the Coaches skill.

There are numerous coaching approaches that put onus on individuals to honestly reflect on their performance and weakness aren't there?

You are making kids and players to be weaklings. They are not. They are fitter, more technically rounded for a game that is more demanding than it has ever been running further, often faster than ever, passing more for football requiring ever more physical and mental effort.

The environments these kids are coming through are not softly softly. Its elite kids with elite (hard nosed) work ethics who get through them. 

And in answer to your past paragraph it is Bristol Citys Manager and Coaches job to hone and guide further these players to get the best of out them. If they are not prepared physically, technically, tactically and mentally as a team the fault is the Manager. 

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1 hour ago, Three Lions said:

You haven't called anybody a snowflake but use the term. You have been above strong in the past when people disagreed with you on otib. So I was asking how do you fix it? What style do you use? How do you dress criticism up for players? Young and younger?

 

49 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Each decade changes. Football in 2008 was different. 

You made a point recently about how few tackles were made in games now, you frequently make a point about football being chess. It is not war like. No lumps are kicked out anymore. No Gows, no Dave Martins ... 

How do you show love and compassion and only show the positives to young people in coaching etc ... Not love and compassion. Try respect. You use the skills you should have learned via your own football education. I do not think I have ever (very young kids apart) seen a coaching approach that does not involve delivering negatives at some point, but I have seen many ideas that focus on methods that do in a positive manner. Again that is in the hands of the Coaches skill.

There are numerous coaching approaches that put onus on individuals to honestly reflect on their performance and weakness aren't there?

You are making kids and players to be weaklings. They are not. They are fitter, more technically rounded for a game that is more demanding than it has ever been running further, often faster than ever, passing more for football requiring ever more physical and mental effort.

The environments these kids are coming through are not softly softly. Its elite kids with elite (hard nosed) work ethics who get through them. 

And in answer to your past paragraph it is Bristol Citys Manager and Coaches job to hone and guide further these players to get the best of out them. If they are not prepared physically, technically, tactically and mentally as a team the fault is the Manager. 

I think you are both missing the point completely.

The problems revolve around communication and being able to take verbal and physical 'abuse'...which you will get in sport at the highest level.

It's folly to say football isn't like going to war.

It totally is...except our warriors are now physically and more technically better and organised.

It's still as physical if not more...you need greater strength...the only difference being you don't get tackles like we used to. It's still massively physical and just as verbal.

Of course you have to mix it up...both in positive coaching and showing the negatives.

The younger generation aren't physically and technically weak...but they are mentally weaker when under pressure or 'abuse' which you get in sport, and lack good communication skills.

You can be mentally stronger in terms of understanding what you have to do on the pitch in regards strategy and keeping shape etc...but it's the mental side when delaing with pressure from the opposition that's the weakness.

As for what style do I use...I break them so to speak. I knock them down then build them back up. They come in with an attitude that doesn't work. They aren't used to discipline on being told what to do, or taking advice or 'orders'. I speak to the parents and tell them what I'm doing. I've had kids in tears at the beginning...but all of them came good in the end. Better at what they did, better rounded individuals, and stronger all round. Everyone to a person thanked me for it.

The coach's I watched that used the softly softly approach ended up with weaker individuals that had no respect for them.

It starts with the parents and what they are used to at home. Letting their kids have whatever they want, no work ethics, rewarded and allowed what they want, because 'it's not fair'.

So many parents let their children come home, spend hours on their own in their bedrooms, using every conceivable device to interact with the world and find comfort in those devices. They eat, sleep and do everything on their own in their rooms.

And we wonder why they can't communicate, build relationships or take criticism. Everything is handed to them on a plate. It's easy....yet in doing so we've created a massive problem.

It's lazy parenting.

And so many parents of my generation won't admit it.

This obviously isn't the case for everyone...but there are a great majority like this.

Part of my coaching was to make parents aware of this and ask them to spend more time with the children, encourage communication and friendships, and limit time being alone in bedrooms on devices.

The worst case scenario I've had with a teenager was he turned up telling me he was an expert and his parents agreed. When coaching him, it became apparent that he was not and completely useless. He was so angry and so were his parents...why was he so bad? Because he was at expert level on his Xbox...go figure. They actually believed that he was a talent, because of playing Xbox. He could barely walk, let along run, so weak were his legs.

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

The 'snowflake generation' is a term to generalise. Not something I use in day to day speech. It's a term to use to easily identify on here what generation we are talking about.

Millenials...snowflakes...whatever...but if I use those terms you understand easily what generation I'm talking about.

And who have I called on here a 'snowflake'?

EVERY generation thinks the younger generation are feckless, over-sensitive and irresponsible. Read any books from any era and you'll find pretty much the same descriptions of the youths of that particular generation. For example the following quote is attributed to Socrates:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

From Aristotle:

"They -- Young People have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things -- and that means having exalted notions. They would always rather do noble deeds than useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning -- all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and vehemently. They overdo everything -- they love too much, hate too much, and the same with everything else."

From Dickens about the tendency of his age (and the 17th century) to see each period and each future generation as either the best or the worst in history. 

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way – in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only"

The surprising thing about the video is that the chap in it does not realise he is not saying anything new or offering any unique insight - just the same dismissals of younger generations that have existed forever. He chooses to criticise parents of an age which he is too young to be and children of age which he is too old to be and, like everyone criticising something they are not part of and do not fully understand, it sounds utterly plausible to anyone else who is not part of it and does not fully understand it and complete nonsense to anyone who is part of that generation and does understand it.

It is a comforting description of Millennials for anyone who is not a Millennial  but complete gibberish to anyone who is or who interactions with Millennials on a regular basis.

If someone genuinely wants to understand the 'problems' with young people, it is probably worth considering the impacts of being the first generation to leave further education with huge burdens of debt, the first generation since the Second World War who will - on average - earn less and have a lower standard of living than their parents, the impact of entering adulthood when there is a distinct lack of secure full-time employment and a generation who have seen house prices rise through their childhood from about two to three times the average salary to around eight to twelve times the average salary.

To many people born between 1955 and 1980, a quiet life in the suburbs with a semi-detached house, steady mundane job, no debt and a settled life was a humdrum reality people fantasised about escaping from. To many people born after 1980, that humdrum reality is it is an unattainable dream.

And THAT is the problem with Millennials not the confused ramblings of an academic who sounds plausible to older people but appears never from what he says to have actually met or spoken to a young person in his life. 

 

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2 hours ago, spudski said:

I've said in my posts that it's not everyone mate, however stereotypes occur because it's a general and common occurrence.

 

 

"The single story creates stereotypes and the problem with stereotypes is not that they are untrue, but that they are incomplete. They make one story become the only story."

 

Whenever you find yourself agreeing with/turning toward/relying upon stereotypes, spud, it's not a bad idea to be a little sceptical, and not simply accepting them unthinkly. There was a time in English football when it was thought that players with a dark skin colour couldn't do this, or replied upon to do that, most usually in the depths of winter in some unpleasant place up north.

Turnt out this was a load of sh1te and had more to do with the conditioning and the minds and the thinking biases of the people putting this "story" about, and nothing to do with the ones they were "stereotyping."

 

Stereotypes "occur" for a variety of reasons, and not always very healthy or helpful ones. 

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6 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

"The single story creates stereotypes and the problem with stereotypes is not that they are untrue, but that they are incomplete. They make one story become the only story."

 

Whenever you find yourself agreeing with/turning toward/relying upon stereotypes, spud, it's not a bad idea to be a little sceptical, and not simply accepting them unthinkly. There was a time in English football when it was thought that players with a dark skin colour couldn't do this, or replied upon to do that, most usually in the depths of winter in some unpleasant place up north.

Turnt out this was a load of sh1te and had more to do with the conditioning and the minds and the thinking biases of the people putting this "story" about, and nothing to do with the ones they were "stereotyping."

 

Stereotypes "occur" for a variety of reasons, and not always very healthy or helpful ones. 

I'm basing everything on my coaching experience which covers coaching many hundreds of people...the youngest being 4yo, the oldest being 93....the majority between 12 and 35. It's not something I read...but a day to day experience.

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6 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

EVERY generation thinks the younger generation are feckless, over-sensitive and irresponsible. Read any books from any era and you'll find pretty much the same descriptions of the youths of that particular generation. For example the following quote is attributed to Socrates:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

 From Aristotle:

"They -- Young People have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things -- and that means having exalted notions. They would always rather do noble deeds than useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning -- all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and vehemently. They overdo everything -- they love too much, hate too much, and the same with everything else."

From Dickens about the tendency of his age (and the 17th century) to see each period and each future generation as either the best or the worst in history. 

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way – in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only"

The surprising thing about the video is that the chap in it does not realise he is not saying anything new or offering any unique insight - just the same dismissals of younger generations that have existed forever. He chooses to criticise parents of an age which he is too young to be and children of age which he is too old to be and, like everyone criticising something they are not part of and do not fully understand, it sounds utterly plausible to anyone else who is not part of it and does not fully understand it and complete nonsense to anyone who is part of that generation and does understand it.

It is a comforting description of Millennials for anyone who is not a Millennial  but complete gibberish to anyone who is or who interactions with Millennials on a regular basis.

If someone genuinely wants to understand the 'problems' with young people, it is probably worth considering the impacts of being the first generation to leave further education with huge burdens of debt, the first generation since the Second World War who will - on average - earn less and have a lower standard of living than their parents, the impact of entering adulthood when there is a distinct lack of secure full-time employment and a generation who have seen house prices rise through their childhood from about two to three times the average salary to around eight to twelve times the average salary.

To many people born between 1955 and 1980, a quiet life in the suburbs with a semi-detached house, steady mundane job, no debt and a settled life was a humdrum reality people fantasised about escaping from. To many people born after 1980, that humdrum reality is it is an unattainable dream.

And THAT is the problem with Millennials not the confused ramblings of an academic who sounds plausible to older people but appears never from what he says to have actually met or spoken to a young person in his life. 

  

Wow, that is a great post! That is, I fully agree with it. Best summary of the issue I've heard in a long while. :clap:

Might be worth a thread of its own, save for how it fits into football, but definitely worth a thread of its own in non football IMO!

Yet, I see where Spudski is coming from- I do in some respects. Put the way it was in subsequent posts, it's an interesting angle, albeit not one I'd necessarily agree with. What got me was the easy to throw out there 'snowflake millennial generation' line. 

How it feeds into football? IMO manager going in and throwing the teacups around, won't go down well with young players- of 'millennial' generation age range. LJ again, yeah a fairly softly-softly approach, but he should mix it up. The distinction though is curious because he is within, or is very close to millennial age range so they are not so very different in that sense. Born 1981? Millennial tbh, albeit only just. So it's an odd distinction to draw I think.

http://www.coachmag.co.uk/entertainment/4797/revealed-the-insane-reality-of-managing-a-football-team

 

Quote

 

What other methods do managers use to inspire their players?

The age of furiously throwing teacups has gone. Managers today have to be emotionally intelligent, not least because dressing rooms are far more multi-cultural. There are certain cultures, like the South American, the Spanish, the far Eastern, where you cannot criticise and humiliate someone in public because they lose face and they will never forgive you.

 

Now it's just an opinion ultimately however it's by an author of a book called Living on the Volcano by Michael Calvin. Would suggest it's fairly well-informed.

Roy Keane was from a pre-Millennials generation- he had serious flaws with man-management IMO, unsure his approach was or would have been sustainable in the long run.  No management job since early 2011.

He's a fairly extreme example but I definitely think it rings true. Truth is though, people of that age range have got to be managed differently, more subtly- emotionally intelligent the best phrase for it. Applies in football as in life- the way LJ explained it was not too good at all though.

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20 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'm basing everything on my coaching experience which covers coaching many hundreds of people...the youngest being 4yo, the oldest being 93....the majority between 12 and 35. It's not something I read...but a day to day experience.

Anecdotal evidence, spud. Prone to problematical thinking, judgement, prejudice. You see but a slice of them and their lives. You have "one story" about them. One story is never enough, spud.

You have a lot of faith in your opinions, your assessments of other people, and your correctness in all this. What do they think of you - you ever consider that? I know, they are wrong!

I think it's a bloody good job you are only responsible for learning them how to slide down a slope without hurting themselves - don't go into politics, promise me?

:thumbsup:

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3 hours ago, spudski said:

Surely people can use their logic to see that there is a difference in outlook to those born in 1981 compared to those born in 1996?

So much has happened in change and the world in a very short time.

Change happening quicker than any time before.

 

Possibly. But given he has been in football his entire working life I don't buy it.

Some of the people I work with are nearing retirement and have seen the world go from an entirely paper office to a paperless one, and we can all understand each other.

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3 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Anecdotal evidence, spud. Prone to problematical thinking, judgement, prejudice. You see but a slice of them and their lives. You have "one story" about them. One story is never enough, spud.

You have a lot of faith in your opinions, your assessments of other people, and your correctness in all this. What do they think of you - you ever consider that? I know, they are wrong!

I think it's a bloody good job you are only responsible for learning them how to slide down a slope without hurting themselves - don't go into politics, promise me?

:thumbsup:

I'll take that as a compliment...I have no faith in Politicians. ;-)

I see more of their lives than you presume. And like I said in my post...everyone to a person has thanked me. Not one complaint. Although at the beginning it's tough for them, because it's so different.

It seems this forum in many ways has towed the party line so to speak...afraid to speak openly about society and it's problems, has become politically correct in many ways, but shows it's ugly side with a kind of cyber bullying and constant horrible remarks about people at the club or forum members...which a lot of the younger generation suffer from.

Go figure...

2 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Possibly. But given he has been in football his entire working life I don't buy it.

Some of the people I work with are nearing retirement and have seen the world go from an entirely paper office to a paperless one, and we can all understand each other.

That's a completely different scenario, especially when you are going to war with the opposition and they are trying to stop everything you are trying to do, and are in your face all the time.

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

 

I think you are both missing the point completely.

The problems revolve around communication and being able to take verbal and physical 'abuse'...which you will get in sport at the highest level.

It's folly to say football isn't like going to war.

It totally is...except our warriors are now physically and more technically better and organised.

It's still as physical if not more...you need greater strength...the only difference being you don't get tackles like we used to. It's still massively physical and just as verbal.

Of course you have to mix it up...both in positive coaching and showing the negatives.

The younger generation aren't physically and technically weak...but they are mentally weaker when under pressure or 'abuse' which you get in sport, and lack good communication skills.

You can be mentally stronger in terms of understanding what you have to do on the pitch in regards strategy and keeping shape etc...but it's the mental side when delaing with pressure from the opposition that's the weakness.

As for what style do I use...I break them so to speak. I knock them down then build them back up. They come in with an attitude that doesn't work. They aren't used to discipline on being told what to do, or taking advice or 'orders'. I speak to the parents and tell them what I'm doing. I've had kids in tears at the beginning...but all of them came good in the end. Better at what they did, better rounded individuals, and stronger all round. Everyone to a person thanked me for it.

The coach's I watched that used the softly softly approach ended up with weaker individuals that had no respect for them.

It starts with the parents and what they are used to at home. Letting their kids have whatever they want, no work ethics, rewarded and allowed what they want, because 'it's not fair'.

So many parents let their children come home, spend hours on their own in their bedrooms, using every conceivable device to interact with the world and find comfort in those devices. They eat, sleep and do everything on their own in their rooms.

And we wonder why they can't communicate, build relationships or take criticism. Everything is handed to them on a plate. It's easy....yet in doing so we've created a massive problem.

It's lazy parenting.

And so many parents of my generation won't admit it.

This obviously isn't the case for everyone...but there are a great majority like this.

Part of my coaching was to make parents aware of this and ask them to spend more time with the children, encourage communication and friendships, and limit time being alone in bedrooms on devices.

The worst case scenario I've had with a teenager was he turned up telling me he was an expert and his parents agreed. When coaching him, it became apparent that he was not and completely useless. He was so angry and so were his parents...why was he so bad? Because he was at expert level on his Xbox...go figure. They actually believed that he was a talent, because of playing Xbox. He could barely walk, let along run, so weak were his legs.

I think it is yourself with respect who is missing points. I as are others are answering unevenness in your posts. 

You imply that current modern coaching is only showing positives. It is not. That is simply untrue. What particular and specific coaching approach is it you are referring to? Whose is it?

You mention young people in coaching. It is a truth that modern coaching involves giving players lots of negative feedback with positives. Young players are continually critiqued and evaluated. 

To get into an academy and stay there and progress a young player will have to display a toughness, a physical, technical and mental prowess the overwhelming majority of us do not match .

TAPS, TIPS and SPIT, peer assessment, self assessment, three sixty review its constant negative and positive feedback. This assessment can be used to create an exciting future for that player. 

A local academy expects players to display fitness levels for young players many adults would struggle to meet putting that kid in the very high % of society, add football intelligence/personality again that %,, add technique and it is again that % .. The result is to get through it these boys are the % of a %. Its constant criticism mixed with positive that leads to their improvement, but in unison with the kids drive, motivation, love of football = These kids in a world that is not a normal reality are mentally very strong individuals to drive themselves through it day in day out, year after year. They are physically and mentally tough. 

Outside of the above world. There can be extreme cases, extremely difficult cases, conflict, confrontation but we have the FA, training, welfare officers, club conduct guidelines, our learned expertise  ... And in some cases players and parents can be asked to leave ... Having had those experiences I have an attitude of "and", it is part of the tapestry and I have to equip myself with then tools to deal with and manage scenarios I can expect . 

That is the minority. 

The challenge for coaches is to still turn our observation into again exciting possibility for kids and their parents. We are educators. If we do not have the skills we should be seeking them out. We make our choice to be skilled communicators who are students of the game, or not. 

I expect the players to improve, I in turn expect myself to enthusiastically improve my skills to meet the challenges I face  ... 

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2 hours ago, spudski said:

I've said in my posts that it's not everyone mate, however stereotypes occur because it's a general and common occurrence.

 

Being proactive and enthusiastic and being challenged by trying to find a positive solution and realising mistakes have been made is also a positive. You see it as a negative. Just ignoring that mistakes have been made is no good for man or beast. Our generation has Ballsed up...and now we congratulate ourselves by seeing it as an exciting challenge to work with it? You see it one way, I see it another. If you can't see we have a massive problem of a generation full of anxiety, depression, more attempted suicides, being offended, no confidence, poor communication skills etc, then you have your head in the sand. It's all over news and media and a hot topic of discussion. The challenge is to fix it, not just let it continue and find ways of working with it, that just created a downward spiral.

A massive problem is our generation don't want to own up or apologise to the fact we've allowed it to happen

Ever since kids have been ferried everywhere in the family limousine, held in check on the end of a bunjee rope, not allowed to travel on trains alone under certain age, never get on a bus, never get their ears smacked by the local bobby or even a neighbour, go to youth clubs and interact with others, join local football, rugby and cricket clubs clubs where they played without an army of parents stood on the touchline screaming advice at them. 

As a six year old, I caught a train in Filton to Cardiff and then a bus for an hour's ride to visit my grandmother. On my first day at infant school about a mile away from home, Mum took me and said "Come straight home for dinner (now called lunch). No football on the way." And going to see City on my own, all the way from Filton. Two buses. Wow! And before anyone mentions modern traffic, you should have seen the density of bikes, buses and cars going to and from the BAC four timesa day along Filton Avenue, Gloucester Road and Southmead Road. 

At age of eight I was travelling to London by train and then tube to visit uncle and aunt. And at same age, I went to BGS in Clifton. Dad came with me first morning after his night shift and basically said the same as Mum hd three years earlier "Come straight home (by bus from the Centre)."

Yes, us older ones could see it coming but the parents to be that were born after around 1970 have caused all of this. Their children have become unable to look after themselves when out and are now the current snowflakes! Unable to take a critical word from any member of the public. 

PS. Do other clubs in the Championship have a "snowflake" problem or is it just our very fragile Head Coach? Perhaps his problem is that he isn't any good at the job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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20 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I think it is yourself with respect who is missing points. I as are others are answering unevenness in your posts. 

You imply that current modern coaching is only showing positives. It is not. That is simply untrue. What particular and specific coaching approach is it you are referring to? Whose is it?

You mention young people in coaching. It is a truth that modern coaching involves giving players lots of negative feedback with positives. Young players are continually critiqued and evaluated. 

To get into an academy and stay there and progress a young player will have to display a toughness, a physical, technical and mental prowess the overwhelming majority of us do not match .

TAPS, TIPS and SPIT, peer assessment, self assessment, three sixty review its constant negative and positive feedback. This assessment can be used to create an exciting future for that player. 

A local academy expects players to display fitness levels for young players many adults would struggle to meet putting that kid in the very high % of society, add football intelligence/personality again that %,, add technique and it is again that % .. The result is to get through it these boys are the % of a %. Its constant criticism mixed with positive that leads to their improvement, but in unison with the kids drive, motivation, love of football = These kids in a world that is not a normal reality are mentally very strong individuals to drive themselves through it day in day out, year after year. They are physically and mentally tough. 

Outside of the above world. There can be extreme cases, extremely difficult cases, conflict, confrontation but we have the FA, training, welfare officers, club conduct guidelines, our learned expertise  ... And in some cases players and parents can be asked to leave ... Having had those experiences I have an attitude of "and", it is part of the tapestry and I have to equip myself with then tools to deal with and manage scenarios I can expect . 

That is the minority. 

The challenge for coaches is to still turn our observation into again exciting possibility for kids and their parents. We are educators. If we do not have the skills we should be seeking them out. We make our choice to be skilled communicators who are students of the game, or not. 

I expect the players to improve, I in turn expect myself to enthusiastically improve my skills to meet the challenges I face  ... 

Going round in circles mate... you've completely ignored what I've spoken about. I've got the skills needed, because I've seen the rewards afterwards. It's the coach's ignoring the 'problems' and trying to work with those problems, that's counter productive in the long run, because we aren't dealing with the problems, just painting over the cracks and thinking that's ok. We can agree to disagree on this point...again :-)

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

I'm basing everything on my coaching experience which covers coaching many hundreds of people...the youngest being 4yo, the oldest being 93....

 

1 hour ago, spudski said:

As for what style do I use...I break them so to speak. I knock them down then build them back up. They come in with an attitude that doesn't work. They aren't used to discipline on being told what to do, or taking advice or 'orders'. I speak to the parents and tell them what I'm doing. I've had kids in tears at the beginning...

Sounds like Schwarzenegger!

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We hear an awful lot now about DNA. 

So are the fragile snowflakes worth bothering with in any job whether football or not? To succeed in any business, a degree of mental toughness is required. To become a professional sportsperson, it must be harder than many other businesses.

Only the toughest survive so why bother with the weaker willed ones? The Gerry Gows's of this world are not usually better players than the also rans but a helluva lot  tougher in the top two inches! 

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35 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Ever since kids have been ferried everywhere in the family limousine, held in check on the end of a bunjee rope, not allowed to travel on trains alone under certain age, never get on a bus, never get their ears smacked by the local bobby or even a neighbour, go to youth clubs and interact with others, join local football, rugby and cricket clubs clubs where they played without an army of parents stood on the touchline screaming advice at them. 

As a six year old, I caught a train in Filton to Cardiff and then a bus for an hour's ride to visit my grandmother. On my first day at infant school about a mile away from home, Mum took me and said "Come straight home for dinner (now called lunch). No football on the way." And going to see City on my own, all the way from Filton. Two buses. Wow! And before anyone mentions modern traffic, you should have seen the density of bikes, buses and cars going to and from the BAC four timesa day along Filton Avenue, Gloucester Road and Southmead Road. 

At age of eight I was travelling to London by train and then tube to visit uncle and aunt. And at same age, I went to BGS in Clifton. Dad came with me first morning after his night shift and basically said the same as Mum hd three years earlier "Come straight home (by bus from the Centre)."

Yes, us older ones could see it coming but the parents to be that were born after around 1970 have caused all of this. Their children have become unable to look after themselves when out and are now the current snowflakes! Unable to take a critical word from any member of the public. 

PS. Do other clubs in the Championship have a "snowflake" problem or is it just our very fragile Head Coach? Perhaps his problem is that he isn't any good at the job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's great and all that, but you simply wouldn't be allowed to make that journey now as a 6 year old or an 8 year old. Quite right too.

Why would anyone want their children's ears 'smacked by a local bobby or neighbour'?

It's all well and good harking back to the 1930s or 40s but the world has moved on. Nothing to do with 'snowflakes', 'millenials' or anything else.

 

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15 minutes ago, spudski said:

Going round in circles mate... you've completely ignored what I've spoken about. I've got the skills needed, because I've seen the rewards afterwards. It's the coach's ignoring the 'problems' and trying to work with those problems, that's counter productive in the long run, because we aren't dealing with the problems, just painting over the cracks and thinking that's ok. We can agree to disagree on this point...again :-)

I will ignore that one because I cannot understand it.

 

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27 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

That's great and all that, but you simply wouldn't be allowed to make that journey now as a 6 year old or an 8 year old. Quite right too.

Why would anyone want their children's ears 'smacked by a local bobby or neighbour'?

It's all well and good harking back to the 1930s or 40s but the world has moved on. Nothing to do with 'snowflakes', 'millenials' or anything else.

 

Why is that right Philly...? Lots of kids in foreign countries step up to the plate much younger, as many did many of the older generation. You can go back to the 80s for kids being like that here. I know I was. Just because things have 'moved on' it doesn't mean it's right or the best thing. Some things are, some things aren't...not everything is progress, in fact in many cases it's regression.

 

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