Why so many unreliable City players ?

[Robbored]

24 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I know I shouldn't take the bait.. but surely even someone who doesn't appreciate boxing can see the skill here

 

All I saw in this clip is a boxers head being whacked back. It's worse in slow motion.......

I appreciate that some people see boxing as a great sport with skilled blokes dodging punches and landing blows on the other guy but not for me. It's simply too brutal for my taste.

Btw - I don't get F1 or basketball either...............

[Antman]

4 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

LJ talks about players he can trust and I am surprised at how many I personally feel are unreliable.

Pato , world beater one week , panel beater the next . Which one will turn up ? Often weak and uninvolved in the match .

Bryan, yes one of our own , equally unreliable. Amazing player , fantastic skills but too often disappears.

Baker, rock steady or rocking useless. Questions must be asked on his mentality., too often ' injured ' or likely to have have a rush of blood to the head leading to a booking or sending off.

The list is not complete but do other clubs suffer in the same way ?

I look at Preston, for example, and the word ' solid ' comes to mind and I wonder why we can't achieve this same consistency. 

 

I think Baker gets a bad press. he isn't as 'mad dog' as some would have us believe and to me looks a very solid CB at this level.

IMO Pato's form goes in big waves, and that led to him dropping right off the radar when LJ first arrived. its not so much match to match erratic, he's shit for longer periods But LJ has stuck with him through these bad patches which isn't good to watch!!

Frankly players like Elliason and Engvall  and possibly Walsh weren't  / aren't inconsistent, just not good enough.

I guess we could sign more average, championship ready solid performers and try build our progress slowly but less interestingly - a bit like the Ipswich model (?) would we want that? we seem to love flair and Jackie -esque individuality, but that ALWAYS comes with a price, large servings of  inconsistency and difficulty in managing the players - JET, Tomlin etc when things go a bit wrong with the teams form. 

I am surprised by LJ's comments, he's clearly built this team ( 3-4 windows blah blah) but as someone else alluded too, this whole club is a culture of 'Yes men' with no room for  individual leaders - from SL's total authority, for whom LJ is a bit of a nodding dog, through to the team with whom i feel LJ would struggle to manage if there were these strong personalities and leaders within it. They would surely see through the frequent, random and frankly stupid decisions that have inflicted some awful results

(IMO Its the same reason we don't have a proper board - i don't think it's a healthy culture at the club at the moment)

would we rather have a dour  1-0 versus Norwich or the sheer roulette wheel lunacy of the Hull game?

 

[Trueredsupporter]

5 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

LJ talks about players he can trust and I am surprised at how many I personally feel are unreliable.

Pato , world beater one week , panel beater the next . Which one will turn up ? Often weak and uninvolved in the match .

Bryan, yes one of our own , equally unreliable. Amazing player , fantastic skills but too often disappears.

Baker, rock steady or rocking useless. Questions must be asked on his mentality., too often ' injured ' or likely to have have a rush of blood to the head leading to a booking or sending off.

The list is not complete but do other clubs suffer in the same way ?

I look at Preston, for example, and the word ' solid ' comes to mind and I wonder why we can't achieve this same consistency. 

 

Why have you not put Diony Kent and Famara on your list? Diony???  Kent playground dribbling. Famara while Reid is working his bollocks off Famara will be seen trotting and walking. 

[Phileas Fogg]

10 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Why have you not put Diony Kent and Famara on your list? Diony???  Kent playground dribbling. Famara while Reid is working his bollocks off Famara will be seen trotting and walking. 

Because Diedhiou’s primary role clearly isn’t to run around pressing the defence.. otherwise that’s what he’d be doing. Players generally follow instructions you realise otherwise they wouldn’t be picked.

Diedhiou’s primary role is obviously to act as a targetman and hold the ball up whereas Reid’s is to press and harass the defence into mistakes.

Kent and Diony aren’t our players so aren’t really that relevant.

[Trueredsupporter]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Because Diedhiou’s primary role clearly isn’t to run around pressing the defence.. otherwise that’s what he’d be doing. Players generally follow instructions you realise otherwise they wouldn’t be picked.

Diedhiou’s primary role is obviously to act as a targetman and hold the ball up whereas Reid’s is to press and harass the defence into mistakes.

Kent and Diony aren’t our players so aren’t really that relevant.

Yeah no pressing of the defence when that is what City did so no real team ethic there. Kent and Diony played in the starting team that is three players and very relevant. That's a tone and a half put into the team by LJ maybe the opening poster should look at that inconsistency. City players must have been thinking we changed the team for that???? 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

16 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Because Diedhiou’s primary role clearly isn’t to run around pressing the defence.. otherwise that’s what he’d be doing. Players generally follow instructions you realise otherwise they wouldn’t be picked.

tbf PF I just think FD is not capable of doing so .Hes a different ‘athlete’ type to BR

Diedhiou’s primary role is obviously to act as a targetman and hold the ball up whereas Reid’s is to press and harass the defence into mistakes.

I agree - but Not sure , and I don’t see how LJ thought it would , how this works PF - and was one of our immediate issues on the return of FD IMHO - FD has to play his part (If we are claiming to or trying to press)

The issue was compounded by the fact that BR was never the pinnacle and was operating either behind (Mostly) , or at best alongside (Occasionally) FD and therefore rarely in a position to trigger a high press and when he did it regularly failed as FD had not responded and the press immediately failed   (IMHO)

Kent and Diony aren’t our players so aren’t really that relevant.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Yeah no pressing of the defence when that is what City did so no real team ethic there.

Did you actually read what I wrote RE Diedhiou or not?

1 minute ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Kent and Diony played in the starting team that is three players and very relevant. That's a tone and a half put into the team by LJ maybe the opening poster should look at that inconsistency. City players must have been thinking we changed the team for that???? 

 

It’s far more useful to talk about the attitude of players when it concerns permanent signings. We got January wrong, but those players were only here a few months. The discussion is focusing on players who’ve been here for a decent amount of time.

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

Yeah was going to mention that about his build too, he wouldn’t be able to get around the pitch like Reid.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

We’ve done this consistently under LJ though...not just during the season just ended. In the season before we were 0-3 up at Derby and drew, 0-2 up at Newcastle and drew, 2-0 up against Reading and lost etc......and then the debacles last season against Sunderland, Leeds, Hull etc etc....

Would say that at Newcastle... Well even Brighton at home got turned around from 1-0 to 1-2 last season.

Derby? Think we- or should I say LJ ****** it by not responding tactically quickly enough- when he did respond it felt too late, the momentum had shifted and shifted decisively.

Reading at home, we could just all just see that ending coming- maybe LJ could have tweaked it better but unsure.

Sunderland at home? At LJ's door for sure. Can see his thinking but take the 3-0 and try to play keep ball- gaps will increasingly open as Sunderland get more desperate and take huge risks.

Leeds. Was always possible to envisage a tough 2nd half. Never got to grips with Hernandez quickly enough IMO. Their crowd helped get them back into it and the 2 fed off each other- should LJ have switched it earlier? Probably.

Hull? Total screw up, in the same category as Sunderland for most avoidable IMO. Reid to the left and an inappropriate formation the 'highlights'.

[Cowshed]

11 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Because Diedhiou’s primary role clearly isn’t to run around pressing the defence.. 

And Mr Johnson to accommodate his lack of running and altered what was a successful strategy.

11 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Diedhiou’s primary role is obviously to act as a targetman and hold the ball up 

Which is not particularly reliable at doing. Perhaps Mr Johnson should provide a compass to the targetman on goal kicks!

13 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

 Reid’s is to press and harass the defence into mistakes.

 

Teams should press in units or behind the trigger. The teams trigger Reid. Reid's role has altered. 

If Reid is expected to do this on his own he will be A/ Superman B/ Physically exhausted. 

It is clear that Reid struggled to close down opponents due to Famara being the first defender, and Reid being the second in the pressing shape having to become the first to the ball due to Diedhiou's ... Umm saving his energy!

Bristol City pressing has suffered (dependant on one view) due to the inclusion of one player. It could be possible to level the same critique of weak and uninvolved etc at this player.   

 

15 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Kent and Diony aren’t our players so aren’t really that relevant.

The opening poster used Preston as an example of reliability. Maybe Preston look more thoroughly at their recruitment and sign players for the consistent manner they play. Does this play a part in greater reliability? I would say yes. Its pretty relevant. 

 

 

 

 

[Major Isewater]

40 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Why have you not put Diony Kent and Famara on your list? Diony???  Kent playground dribbling. Famara while Reid is working his bollocks off Famara will be seen trotting and walking. 

Famara is one of the most consistent performers contrary to your opinion.

He is never going to be that all action , busy player that Bobby is mostly due to his build but he does  his best . 

Bobby is another dependable lad .

Diony and Kent could have been added to the list but I don't consider them as City players and neither really had the chance to settle into the team with an extended run.

 

[Cowshed]

27 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

tbf PF I just think FD is not capable of doing so .Hes a different ‘athlete’ type to BR

I agree - but Not sure , and I don’t see how LJ thought it would , how this works PF - and was one of our immediate issues on the return of FD IMHO - FD has to play his part (If we are claiming to or trying to press)

The issue was compounded by the fact that BR was never the pinnacle and was operating either behind (Mostly) , or at best alongside (Occasionally) FD and therefore rarely in a position to trigger a high press and when he did it regularly failed as FD had not responded and the press immediately failed   (IMHO) 

A point I made about a exemplary pressing team in Liverpool is that they have multiple athletes in the squad to support their high octane pressing and football. 

Bristol City could have carried on with their trajectory of high lines, fast paced football and aggressive pressing and ONE injury to Reid would basically have ended it.  

Mr Johnson chose to not pursue that path. Its unclear what path he is pursuing at this point. Liverpool are another example of single minded approach. Klopp has plan A and plan A,Yes Mr Klopp is brilliant, he has large resources but the theme of Plan A is the same as Warnock - Single minded.

Lee Johnson has several minds on different teams. Its an inconsistent approach that creates its unreliability.

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

A point I made about a exemplary pressing team in Liverpool is that they have multiple athletes in the squad to support their high octane pressing and football. 

Bristol City could have carried on with their trajectory of high lines, fast paced football and aggressive pressing and ONE injury to Reid would basically have ended it.  

Mr Johnson chose to not pursue that path. Its unclear what path he is pursuing at this point. Liverpool are another example of single minded approach. Klopp has plan A and plan A,Yes Mr Klopp is brilliant, he has large resources but the theme of Plan A is the same as Warnock - Single minded.

Lee Johnson has several minds on different teams. Its an inconsistent approach that creates its unreliability.

 

Good post again

Id  merely change the last line to 

 

Lee Johnson has several minds on different teams. Its a muddled and confused approach that creates its unreliability

[cidered abroad]

5 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's not unique to us at all.

Inconsistent players like Paterson or even Bryan are at pretty much every club.. Jay Emmanuel-Thomas, David Noble, Luke Freeman, Steven Davies just to name a few of our recent ones off the top of my head..

Even at clubs like United they have problems with Pogba and consistency. 

I bet if you took a straw poll of fans of every club in the top 4 leagues they'd all name one of their players who's inconsistent.

I think what is unique to us is LJ highlighting the 'players I can trust' thing so regularly. I don't hear managers doing that very often, psychologically I don't see the benefit. Say it in private by all means, but all it does to me when he says it is paint a lot of negative connotations about LJ's man management.

I really do believe that he is hiding behind this continuing myth that he wants us to believe. 

Getting more convinced that it is a shield to deflect any criticism from him. 

I know I seem to be always picking on LJ, but the more these bad runs, the more I am finding it hard to have any positives about him. 

[ZiderEyed]

23 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

A point I made about a exemplary pressing team in Liverpool is that they have multiple athletes in the squad to support their high octane pressing and football. 

Bristol City could have carried on with their trajectory of high lines, fast paced football and aggressive pressing and ONE injury to Reid would basically have ended it.  

Mr Johnson chose to not pursue that path. Its unclear what path he is pursuing at this point. Liverpool are another example of single minded approach. Klopp has plan A and plan A,Yes Mr Klopp is brilliant, he has large resources but the theme of Plan A is the same as Warnock - Single minded.

Lee Johnson has several minds on different teams. Its an inconsistent approach that creates its unreliability.

 

Superb post.

[E.J.Thribb]

8 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

Agree 100%

That is why I have long advocated an external enquiry to get to the bottom of it

An external enquiry..by whom? The supporters groups? The Parliamentary Select Committee?? 

[Ivorguy]

8 hours ago, Robbored said:

and what would be the benefit of that?  Accept the things you cannot change.

I don’t understand your response. Sorry but to know the reasons would  enable the club to act positively to prevent a repetition

At present the club is in denial that there even are questions to be answered

 

[22A]

9 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

LJ talks about players he can trust and I am surprised at how many I personally feel are unreliable.

I wonder why we can't achieve this same consistency. 

 

Players in the team are better than the reserves and sadly they don't need to try harder as long as the pay rolls in. The same is probably true at so many clubs.

[ontariored]

Unreliable or inconsistent? This is not a beat up session on our emperor LJ but when you have the motivational, strategic capabilities of a donkey on one time, Weston Sands, what do you expect?

[Trueredsupporter]

4 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Did you actually read what I wrote RE Diedhiou or not?

It’s far more useful to talk about the attitude of players when it concerns permanent signings. We got January wrong, but those players were only here a few months. The discussion is focusing on players who’ve been here for a decent amount of time.

Yeah was going to mention that about his build too, he wouldn’t be able to get around the pitch like Reid.

I read it. Point being made by others better than myself if Diedhiou creates an issue if the team wanted to continue pressing from the front doesn't he? 

the impact of those players made the team worse. 

 

4 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Famara is one of the most consistent performers contrary to your opinion.

He is never going to be that all action , busy player that Bobby is mostly due to his build but he does  his best . 

 

 

Not really. Problem for the team in your second line. Definitely could be putting in more work. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Famara is one of the most consistent performers contrary to your opinion.

He is never going to be that all action , busy player that Bobby is mostly due to his build but he does  his best . 

Bobby is another dependable lad .

Diony and Kent could have been added to the list but I don't consider them as City players and neither really had the chance to settle into the team with an extended run.

 

I guess I have a low benchmark but as strikers go I thought and think FD does quite a lot of closing down. When you think of bog standard championship strikers like Nuhia, Waghorn, Smith, FD is a bloody dynamo. 

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

I don’t understand your response. Sorry but to know the reasons would  enable the club to act positively to prevent a repetition

At present the club is in denial that there even are questions to be answered

 

You want an external inquiry?  Into what? and what would it prove.........

 

[Cowshed]

42 minutes ago, 29AR said:

I guess I have a low benchmark but as strikers go I thought and think FD does quite a lot of closing down. When you think of bog standard championship strikers like Nuhia, Waghorn, Smith, FD is a bloody dynamo. 

I can think of an excellent example of where Diedhiou pressed and a goal followed, however If Bristol City are to press from the front his pressing is a liability. He simply at times is labouring across the pitch. His lack of athleticism creates opportunity for the opposition to penetrate forward.  

It is a case of what skillsets you want in a player. Players above can be instructed to not press at all . Pressing is a particular skill. If Bristol City want to press high it is not an easy way to play. Pressing high requires high fitness levels and athletic ability to reach the ball quickly, mental toughness and disciplined commitment. 

Again I highlight Liverpool. Reid in a humbler fashion could play for Liverpool out of possession in their gegenpress because of his athleticism and fitness levels. Diedhiou clearly could not.

[DaveInSA]

12 hours ago, Cowshed said:

When these losses of form coincide with the same Manager in charge? Scrutinise what the Manager and his coaches are doing. 

Question. After 2.5 years can people describe what type of football and team Mr Johnsons wants? After six months what type of football did Neil Warnock's team play?

Perceptions of weakness, unreliability can be laid at the door of Managers who do not know what football they want.

The team is a reflection of Lee Johnson.

 

Ultimately, the team is a reflection of all of us fans...

...do we, really, deep down, believe that BCFC deserve to be a successful club pushing for the realms of footballing greatness.

No, we do not.

And hence the club does not perform like it.

This my dear fans is quantum energy at work.

[Cowshed]

4 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

Ultimately, the team is a reflection of all of us fans...

...do we, really, deep down, believe that BCFC deserve to be a successful club pushing for the realms of footballing greatness.

No, we do not.

And hence the club does not perform like it.

This my dear fans is quantum energy at work.

 I cannot see how the Bristol City team can be a reflection of its fans. Fans have differing views of what success and great is. I do believe the mindset of fans can affect a team to a degree however I do not know what quantum energy is, and how it would help to define BCFC.

Money, then the Manager/Directors/Owners are the prime drivers of success in regards to winning trophies at the highest (great?) level.

Would you like to articulate further (in all honesty)?

 

 

[Ivorguy]

3 hours ago, Robbored said:

You want an external inquiry?  Into what? and what would it prove.........

 

Oh dear you really aren't following the debate.  Why the team collapsed so badly after Christmas, ok?

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Oh dear you really aren't following the debate.  Why the team collapsed so badly after Christmas, ok?

There is no point in an "external inquiry".  What on earth are others likely to discover that hasn't already been found?

Im sure LJ and his assistants/coaches have pondered and fretted over why results dropped off and will have almost certainly come up with several combinations of reasons and will act accordingly come next season.

If you were alert you'd have heard SL say that he wants a better season next time and to me that's a reminder to LJ that his job might not as secure as he thinks....... 

[Ivorguy]

No point continuing discussion as we are too far apart. My view is that the coaching staff have failed to find the cause and deal with it.  Maybe because they aren't up to it or are in denial over their own responsibility for it.  However the problem may lie elsewhere within the club and BS. It is the old argument of internal audits and external.  I don't see the club as capable or desirous even of facing up to the issue.  You clearly do.  Sadly neither of us will be asked our opinion and we both have to hope lessons have been learnt because they clearly weren't from the 2016/17 season's fiasco.

[Phileas Fogg]

5 hours ago, Trueredsupporte said:

I read it. Point being made by others better than myself if Diedhiou creates an issue if the team wanted to continue pressing from the front doesn't he? 

It’s pretty obvious, it’s because he’s following instructions. He wouldn’t get in the team if he wasn’t.

If he was told to harass the defence I’m sure he’d try, but it’s not his natural game. Don’t think it’s fair to imply he is ‘unreliable’ because of that. 

 

[DaveInSA]

9 hours ago, Cowshed said:

 I cannot see how the Bristol City team can be a reflection of its fans. Fans have differing views of what success and great is. I do believe the mindset of fans can affect a team to a degree however I do not know what quantum energy is, and how it would help to define BCFC.

Money, then the Manager/Directors/Owners are the prime drivers of success in regards to winning trophies at the highest (great?) level.

Would you like to articulate further (in all honesty)?

 

 

To elaborate further.

Everything in the universe is connected by energy. There is only energy and matter. Nothing else. 

The collective subconcious negative belief (an example would be "I am not good enough") of all the Bristol City fans is reflected by the performance of the club, both on and off the pitch. Because these beliefs are subconcious, we need to reprogramme the subconcious mind (rather like wiping a PC's hard drive) to reflect positive reinforcing beliefs (an example would be, I can achieve all my dreams"). If we do this and if we channel these beliefs towards the club, we will improve.

This all sounds a bit star wars, but science is now able to measure "energy". Of course, everybody at the club would also need to change their beliefs too.

Read Biology of Belief by Bruce Lipton. He provides the rationale for how the human mind (specifcially the subconcious mind) is capable of incredible things.

[Major Isewater]

11 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

To elaborate further.

Everything in the universe is connected by energy. There is only energy and matter. Nothing else. 

The collective subconcious negative belief (an example would be "I am not good enough") of all the Bristol City fans is reflected by the performance of the club, both on and off the pitch. Because these beliefs are subconcious, we need to reprogramme the subconcious mind (rather like wiping a PC's hard drive) to reflect positive reinforcing beliefs (an example would be, I can achieve all my dreams"). If we do this and if we channel these beliefs towards the club, we will improve.

This all sounds a bit star wars, but science is now able to measure "energy". Of course, everybody at the club would also need to change their beliefs too.

Read Biology of Belief by Bruce Lipton. He provides the rationale for how the human mind (specifcially the subconcious mind) is capable of incredible things.

Did Bruce Lipton ever play in the Prem ?