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Have we seen the best of Joe Bryan in a city shirt?


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4 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I’ve seen this posted a few times and can’t see what it’s based on other than bringing our most expensive player of all time back into the squad when fit - which seems like a no brainer. 

Do you honestly believe one day he just completely changed his mind about everything he wanted the team to do and instructed everyone to play in a completely different style?

Putting to one side Cardiff away where we clearly set up to play a very different game,  I can’t see that this is the case. I think we’ve always tried to be a team who plays attractive football (not to say that we always succeed) 

I think as time went on the result became more and more important than the performance and so elements of our approach changed in order to try and be more defensively solid (ha) but I don’t think we suddenly just decided to rip up everything and do something completely different. 

As I have posted before Mr Johnson by bringing one player into the team does significantly alter its approach.

The inclusion of Diedhiou, Diony, Kent etc was to add verticality to Citys football. Other players also add that impact. It not just v Cardiff it was numerous (months) matches where the teams intent was to penetrate quicker rather than look to play into feet. 

So yes the answer is Lee Johnson did make a very clear decision to alter a playing principle from attempt to penetrate but switch start again to one that was focussed on getting the ball higher into a platform (Mr Johnson's description of a bigger front two). 

Offensively and defensively the team at times in the season where doing things that were very differently. Mr Johnson did that. It was intentional, and I would not disrespectfully suggest otherwise because that goes into the realms of he does not know what he is doing ...

I would suggest looking at squad members and recruitment this longer more direct approach was always Mr Johnsons intent, what it did highlight was how good certain players could be in a team that really looked to pass to feet and play short ... One of those individuals was Joe Bryan.

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11 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I don’t think changing one player constitutes ripping up your entire philosophy and starting from scratch. Reid was still there to feed off of the quick football and Fam was there as an outlet for when that wasn’t an option.

It gave us the option of that outball and maybe that was part of the problem. Not all of our players are equally intelligent and a few of them panic into the wrong decision.

That one player instantly rips up the way the team will set up out of possession. 

In possession you are now talking about hitting long balls and runners with a player pushed up rather than dropping off like a ten playing in front and in the pockets.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, BRISTOL86 said:

A decent player on his day but (tin hat time) thinks he’s better than he is IMO and ‘his days’ are few and far between  

Small sums to a premier league team I suppose but for me it’s a gamble - he hasn’t shown anywhere near the consistency required to excel at a better standard.

Do we really think as a fan base we see more insightfully than multiple managers about where a player should be played? 

Cotts saw him as a left back too, albeit an attacking one. Both wrong? 

If it weren’t for a couple of wonder long range strikes, I don’t think anyone would see him as a natural winger/wide mid. 

I couldn't agree more with this post if I tried.

Joe is at an age now where he should be turning in consistent performances. Once again this season...we seen a mixed bag. 

People say about playing him on the wing...yet the guy can barely cross the ball. How many times do you see a cross not beat the first man?

The kid comes across to me as someone who just doesn't love the game enough. He just let's to many games pass him by without taking it by the scruff of the neck 

Good player on his day...but not the world beater some make out. One poster on here the other month even mentioned playing for England...

Incredible 

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3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

As I have posted before Mr Johnson by bringing one player into the team does significantly alter its approach.

The inclusion of Diedhiou, Diony, Kent etc was to add verticality to Citys football. Other players also add that impact. It not just v Cardiff it was numerous (months) matches where the teams intent was to penetrate quicker rather than look to play into feet. 

So yes the answer is Lee Johnson did make a very clear decision to alter a playing principle from attempt to penetrate but switch start again to one that was focussed on getting the ball higher into a platform (Mr Johnson's description of a bigger front two). 

Offensively and defensively the team at times in the season where doing things that were very differently. Mr Johnson did that. It was intentional, and I would not disrespectfully suggest otherwise because that goes into the realms of he does not know what he is doing ...

I would suggest looking at squad members and recruitment this longer more direct approach was always Mr Johnsons intent, what it did highlight was how good certain players could be in a team that really looked to pass to feet and play short ... One of those individuals was Joe Bryan.

I don’t think the decision to try and make better use of big players is a bad thing. It’s true that at times we were very guilty of over playing where the ball was screaming to be gotten into the box. 

For me it’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t. If we’d have not brought Diedhiou back and our results didn’t continue then he’d have been lambasted for that too. Too many individuals had a very poor few months and I don’t think it can be analysed/explained as simply as Johnson trying to fundamentally change the entire ethos of the way the team play. 

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The manager saw him as a LB, he played there for the majority of the second half of the season, because the manager didn't trust Magnússon after a few identical mistakes. It's no surprise to me that his best performances were from midfield, where he chipped in with goals and assists, along with his defensive duties. Coincidentally, it seemed to me that the team as a whole also benefitted from his performances in a wide midfield role. Both attacking and with less goals conceded, with the goals drying up and with goals conceded increased, in that second period, while at LB. Makes one wonder if he was played in his best position.

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2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

That one player instantly rips up the way the team will set up out of possession. 

In possession you are now talking about hitting long balls and runners with a player pushed up rather than dropping off like a ten playing in front and in the pockets.

 

 

 

Why would you have to hit a long ball 40 yards from a centre back just because one player does well off of aerial service? You don’t. But some players knowing they have that option take it because they panic in possession. 

A quick look at Johnson’s social media and it’s obvious how he wants his team to play and it’s not by hoofing it at every possible opportunity, which is how a few of ours reacted to FDs reintroduction. 

Big difference between an intricate passage of possession finished off by a cross to a target man and a mindless hoof from your own penalty box. 

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1 hour ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Why would you have to hit a long ball 40 yards from a centre back just because one player does well off of aerial service? You don’t. But some players knowing they have that option take it because they panic in possession. 

A quick look at Johnson’s social media and it’s obvious how he wants his team to play and it’s not by hoofing it at every possible opportunity, which is how a few of ours reacted to FDs reintroduction. 

Big difference between an intricate passage of possession finished off by a cross to a target man and a mindless hoof from your own penalty box. o

 

1 hour ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I don’t think the decision to try and make better use of big players is a bad thing. It’s true that at times we were very guilty of over playing where the ball was screaming to be gotten into the box. 

For me it’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t. If we’d have not brought Diedhiou back and our results didn’t continue then he’d have been lambasted for that too. Too many individuals had a very poor few months and I don’t think it can be analysed/explained as simply as Johnson trying to fundamentally change the entire ethos of the way the team play. 

In your posts you are talking about fundamental difference in playing style.

Lee Johnson platform of two bigger pushed up intent is to make the team play longer. I did not say at every possible opportunity, but the principle has altered. A logical consequence is that players go longer more often. Poor decision making is part of the risk and reward of the approach. 

Playing two smaller players dropping off as tens, even as false nines the principle is to feet leading also logically to overplaying at times. Its risk and reward again.

The ethos of the team was changed. Individuals (numerous) experienced drops in form as did the team. It is normal to look at the tactics and team selection of the Manager and his decisions to be the major contributory factor ... One of my favourite lines is that a team is a reflection of its Managers ideas ... And years into Lee Johnsons tenure it is his ideas we see on the pitch performed badly, and for a period exceptionally.

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I think FD and BR are very well suited to playing together as between them they are an excellent blend of physicality, creativity and technical ability. Big man little man has been proven successful time and time again. 

IMO the reintroduction of FD led to a big increase in poor decision making amongst less intelligent players who pumped it long repeatedly out of instinct and it being the easiest option, especially under pressure. Not having that ‘out’ in the team naturally leads to being forced to look for a better option. 

Of course it’s Johnson’s problem/responsibility to resolve that so I’m in no way absolving him from blame. 

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Also we actually scored marginally more goals per game when FD features as opposed to when he didn’t, so we were statistically a more potent side when he played (though actually very little in it). 

IMO the second half decline was a combination of a multitude of factors and no one thing in isolation. 

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13 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

You are ignoring the complete absence of the high press @BRISTOL86 and FDs role , and BRs repositioning , in that

Our good defending pre Xmas started high high up the pitch

Very good point. But I don’t think it’s very fair to say that our piss poor defence and non existent central midfield for half a season is FDs fault!

Let’s be honest - as a team we had a mare post Christmas. Really the complete season of two halves. So many contributing factors to the decline that actually trying to make sense of it is nigh on impossible. 

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2 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Let’s be honest - as a team we had a mare post Christmas. Really the complete season of two halves. So many contributing factors to the decline that actually trying to make sense of it is nigh on impossible. 

All roads lead back to Lee though. Same squad next year but with Mick McCarthy as manager and Peter Beardsley as assistant and we’d have a strong chance of the playoffs 

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9 minutes ago, Ser Davos Ciderworth said:

All roads lead back to Lee though. Same squad next year but with Mick McCarthy as manager and Peter Beardsley as assistant and we’d have a strong chance of the playoffs 

Ignoring the names you suggest I really don’t think that’s true. 

With the squad we have we over achieved for half a season. No two ways about it. We ultimately finished in a place that broadly reflects the quality difference in the squad and the real contenders like Fulham, Villa, Derby, Wolves  

You have to put aside the fees we pay for players as irrelevant as it makes no difference to the absolute quality of the squad. That’s a wider recruitment issue.

Cardiff are the outlier as they had a manager who truly excels at achieving the seemingly impossible. Fair play to them. I’m sure Johnson would be the first to admit that he - at present - can only dream of achieving the same.  

There is absolutely no evidence at all that A.N. Other would have done better over a season. They may well not have had anywhere near the bad run we had but conversely it’s highly unlikely they’d have had us in the automatic spots or thereabouts going into the new year.  

Put another way if our points accumulation had been more consistent in profile this season would be deemed a success. As always context is everything. 

But I do agree that the deficiencies in the team - whatever they are - ultimately lead back to LJ to identify/resolve. 

Big season for him next year and a lot will depend on ambition shown from above. 

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2 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Very good point. But I don’t think it’s very fair to say that our piss poor defence and non existent central midfield for half a season is FDs fault!

Let’s be honest - as a team we had a mare post Christmas. Really the complete season of two halves. So many contributing factors to the decline that actually trying to make sense of it is nigh on impossible. 

That is a fundamental difference. It was a decision taken obviously by the Manager to significantly change the way the team plays. The lack of high press is Lee Johnson abandoning defend from the front, first defender etc by putting FD in the side. Everything that follows the lack of a high press, the alteration in patterns of play follows that decision. FD is in the side to change it and he did. 

Forgetting results BCFC played like two different team this season. It is with respects in regards to approach very easy to understand and logical because it was intentional on the Managers part. 

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8 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Ignoring the names you suggest I really don’t think that’s true. 

With the squad we have we over achieved for half a season. No two ways about it. We ultimately finished in a place that broadly reflects the quality difference in the squad and the real contenders like Fulham, Villa, Derby, Wolves  

You have to put aside the fees we pay for players as irrelevant as it makes no difference to the absolute quality of the squad. That’s a wider recruitment issue.

Cardiff are the outlier as they had a manager who truly excels at achieving the seemingly impossible. Fair play to them. I’m sure Johnson would be the first to admit that he - at present - can only dream of achieving the same.  

There is absolutely no evidence at all that A.N. Other would have done better over a season. They may well not have had anywhere near the bad run we had but conversely it’s highly unlikely they’d have had us in the automatic spots or thereabouts going into the new year.  

Put another way if our points accumulation had been more consistent in profile this season would be deemed a success. As always context is everything. 

But I do agree that the deficiencies in the team - whatever they are - ultimately lead back to LJ to identify/resolve. 

Big season for him next year and a lot will depend on ambition shown from above. 

Agree we overachieved for half a season, worrying thing for me though is although we reverted to the mean overall we underachieved for the second half of the season. 

We need to say goodbye to Lee NOW  otherwise if we go on one of his bad runs early next season we will be playing the Gas again season after. 

Get in a new manager who can motivate, recruit shrewdly and manage upwards and City can go places. Lee is deficient in all areas except corporate suit-speak and excuses. 

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We've seen glimpses of the player he may become. At sometimes he has been simply unplayable and other times back average.

I liked what Alan Ball once said in a Q&A at Man City I went to. "An average player can look good playing with good players, but a good player can be made to look average playing with bad players".

I think this sums up Joe Bryan. He is a good player, who has shown his quality at times but I think he is held back by a number of our players who aren't on his wavelength. His movement in his goal against Manchester United shows exactly the quality he has and it was his vision and persistence and movement that made that goal. But at other times I have seen him go forward and expect players to know what he wants them to do, and then he finds himself out of position because his teammates simply aren't on his wavelength. I think playing for a quality side with quality players will showcase the player he has the potential to be. But whilst I'll probably get torn to pieces for saying it, I feel we as a club are holding Joe Bryan back as he is on a completely different wave length to a number of our players. 

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11 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

That is a fundamental difference. It was a decision taken obviously by the Manager to significantly change the way the team plays. The lack of high press is Lee Johnson abandoning defend from the front, first defender etc by putting FD in the side. Everything that follows the lack of a high press, the alteration in patterns of play follows that decision. FD is in the side to change it and he did. 

Forgetting results BCFC played like two different team this season. It is with respects in regards to approach very easy to understand and logical because it was intentional on the Managers part. 

Can’t argue with that - but the fact is that one personnel switch simply should not have had such a profound effect. Plenty of teams that only play with one striker are still effective at pressing high  

And let us not forget it was late October when Fam got crocked and until then we were flying so no reason at all why it should have fundamentally changed our fortunes.

In fact the games in which FD played until that point were our best all season in terms of defensive solidity - averaging 1 goal against per game. If only it was anywhere near that good in the games he didn’t play  

Too many individuals simply had a crap few months. 

But ultimately that is on LJ to identify and resolve so the buck stops there. 

10 minutes ago, Ser Davos Ciderworth said:

Agree we overachieved for half a season, worrying thing for me though is although we reverted to the mean overall we underachieved for the second half of the season. 

We need to say goodbye to Lee NOW  otherwise if we go on one of his bad runs early next season we will be playing the Gas again season after. 

Get in a new manager who can motivate, recruit shrewdly and manage upwards and City can go places. Lee is deficient in all areas except corporate suit-speak and excuses. 

That’s clearly not the case though is it. Was 5 months of the season just a fluke then? 

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30 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Can’t argue with that - but the fact is that one personnel switch simply should not have had such a profound effect. Plenty of teams that only play with one striker are still effective at pressing high  

And let us not forget it was late October when Fam got crocked and until then we were flying so no reason at all why it should have fundamentally changed our fortunes.

In fact the games in which FD played until that point were our best all season in terms of defensive solidity - averaging 1 goal against per game. If only it was anywhere near that good in the games he didn’t play  

Too many individuals simply had a crap few months. 

But ultimately that is on LJ to identify and resolve so the buck stops there. 

That’s clearly not the case though is it. Was 5 months of the season just a fluke then? 

Five months of this season, 4 months of the season before and 4 months of the season before that must have all been flukes!

13 months of his time here (out of 24 months where competetive football is played) absolutely were flukes because LJ just isnt allowed to be given any credit for what he does well, but must take all criticism for any mistakes (of which there have been a few)

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2 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Five months of this season, 4 months of the season before and 4 months of the season before that must have all been flukes!

13 months of his time here (out of 24 months where competetive football is played) absolutely were flukes because LJ just isnt allowed to be given any credit for what he does well, but must take all criticism for any mistakes (of which there have been a few)

That’s what annoys me. People talk hyperbolically like he’s shown absolutely zero sign of being a good manager which is absolute nonsense. 

I’m neither pro nor anti Johnson - there’s good and bad points about his tenure to date, but some of what you read is just absolute guff. 

‘HE MUST GO NOW IF WE ARE TO HAVE ANY CHANCE OF A FUTURE FOR OUR CHILDREN’ 

Get a grip!

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1 hour ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Can’t argue with that - but the fact is that one personnel switch simply should not have had such a profound effect. Plenty of teams that only play with one striker are still effective at pressing high  

And let us not forget it was late October when Fam got crocked and until then we were flying so no reason at all why it should have fundamentally changed our fortunes.

In fact the games in which FD played until that point were our best all season in terms of defensive solidity - averaging 1 goal against per game. If only it was anywhere near that good in the games he didn’t play  

Too many individuals simply had a crap few months. 

But ultimately that is on LJ to identify and resolve so the buck stops there. 

Sorry but if that one player does not have the necessary skill set the effect is profound. Teams buy players with the physical and mental capacity to press. Bobby Reid has a huge mobile work rate. FD? Djuric? They have different skills.

I made similar points here. And was proved not to my satisfaction right. Bristol City abandoned a tactic to accommodate one player.

In fact the games in which FD played until that point were our best all season in terms of defensive solidity - averaging 1 goal against per game. If only it was anywhere near that good in the games he didn’t play  ... And the games he did not play in were the best in terms of aggressive counter pressing and high pressing leading to the team being second, but is not a point about goals conceded but about how the teams plays. Long terms. The future.   

Zippy, energetic, short interplay or?

Bristol City hade no replacement for Reid's pressing ability amongst the other forwards ... It highlights by choice that Mr Johnson worked away from this tactic, not evolving or progressing, or even bolstering it with support for Reid's role. 

And let us not forget it was late October when Fam got crocked and until then we were flying so no reason at all why it should have fundamentally changed our fortunes ... I will leave it there as its cyclic. Fundamentally there is every reason why it changed the football. FD could have returned and the team pushed on but its approach would still have been different. 

1 hour ago, 123red1 said:

We've seen glimpses of the player he may become. At sometimes he has been simply unplayable and other times back average.

I liked what Alan Ball once said in a Q&A at Man City I went to. "An average player can look good playing with good players, but a good player can be made to look average playing with bad players".

I think this sums up Joe Bryan. He is a good player, who has shown his quality at times but I think he is held back by a number of our players who aren't on his wavelength. His movement in his goal against Manchester United shows exactly the quality he has and it was his vision and persistence and movement that made that goal. But at other times I have seen him go forward and expect players to know what he wants them to do, and then he finds himself out of position because his teammates simply aren't on his wavelength. I think playing for a quality side with quality players will showcase the player he has the potential to be. But whilst I'll probably get torn to pieces for saying it, I feel we as a club are holding Joe Bryan back as he is on a completely different wave length to a number of our players. 

100%. That Man Utd goal others would have played it forward instead of controlling it.

Frequently see Joe reset possession that is going out of control where others get rid, frequently see little bounces one two's, and looking for wall passes and team mates not reading it ... And that is also why many do not get him because he is the modern future player at a club that is looking/or maybe is not looking to be a club that plays that modern future game.

You can hear that conflict between old thoughts and new ones on match day. Some want it booted, stop playing fanny football and got rid, and some fans are thinking play out and to feet ... The team are often like that too.

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@Cowshed we started the season playing the high press with FD in the side.

You are saying having him in the side means we cant/wont do that, yet we did for 20 odd games before his injury.

5 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

That’s what annoys me. People talk hyperbolically like he’s shown absolutely zero sign of being a good manager which is absolute nonsense. 

I’m neither pro nor anti Johnson - there’s good and bad points about his tenure to date, but some of what you read is just absolute guff. 

‘HE MUST GO NOW IF WE ARE TO HAVE ANY CHANCE OF A FUTURE FOR OUR CHILDREN’ 

Get a grip!

I blame him for me not getting the job I applied for.

LJ out!

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10 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

@Cowshedd we started the season playing the high press with FD in the side.

You are saying having him in the side means we cant/wont do that, yet we did for 20 odd games before his injury.

James as explained in other threads City did not consistently it was often sliding and screening then press, and Lee Johnson has made the decision to not on his return. I agree. Personally I feel that City should drop off, screen to direct play across the pitch into zones and press at pre-determined trigger points, leaving FD in advance of the possession saving his energy for when the ball is regained.

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1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

That is a fundamental difference. It was a decision taken obviously by the Manager to significantly change the way the team plays. The lack of high press is Lee Johnson abandoning defend from the front, first defender etc by putting FD in the side. Everything that follows the lack of a high press, the alteration in patterns of play follows that decision. FD is in the side to change it and he did. 

Forgetting results BCFC played like two different team this season. It is with respects in regards to approach very easy to understand and logical because it was intentional on the Managers part. 

My memory is not what it was, but wasn't FD in the team at the beginning of the season, when we were playing high press? Ignore.  Should read whole thread before posting!

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22 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

@Cowshed we started the season playing the high press with FD in the side.

You are saying having him in the side means we cant/wont do that, yet we did for 20 odd games before his injury.

I blame him for me not getting the job I applied for.

LJ out!

You may be a young coach James but clearly not as innovative or highly rated by SL as LJ.

You'll just have to accept that LJ beat you to it and the better man won on this occasion

 You never know though there may be another vacancy at AG to apply for soon.

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4 hours ago, Midred said:

I think that there was alot less interest in them in January than they were expecting after the cup run and one or two of them just threw their toys out .

Sadly true. Also the realisation that they weren’t going to get promotion anytime soon with Bristol City after the January transfer/loan business made up a few minds. They want out.

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6 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I don’t think changing one player constitutes ripping up your entire philosophy and starting from scratch. Reid was still there to feed off of the quick football and Fam was there as an outlet for when that wasn’t an option.

It gave us the option of that outball and maybe that was part of the problem. Not all of our players are equally intelligent and a few of them panic into the wrong decision.

Depends who the player is. Tomlin? 

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