Pep and Yaya...

[123red1]

I wonder if Jose called his bluff and offered him a 1 year deal on £1 a week he would take it. If he did I would have more respect for him, and suspect it's just "paper look at me talk".

[Bryans Left Peg]

18 minutes ago, You Do The Dziekanowski said:

It’s like the Paul ince situation all over again. 

You aren’t in a job because you aren’t good at it. (For the level you aspire to be at) 

Simple as that. 

There's so many other factors in play, this just simply isn't true. Times are changing but you only have to look at certain roles and there's a clear indication that racism still plays/played a big hand.

For example, black children are reportedly 12x less likely to be UK prime minister. 

18 minutes ago, You Do The Dziekanowski said:

If I was black and I got a job because they feel they have to have x amount of black employees I’d be fuming. 

This is unrelated to the point I'm making but I agree. The 'Rooney Rule' is a horrible idea.

 

[ZiderEyed]

3 minutes ago, Bryans Left Peg said:

 

It's neither meant as a comment to tear away your achievements or as a derogatory term. With the greatest of respect, I don't believe either of you understand or have researched white privilege in great detail. It's a fact of life that white people are privileged.

If you have a chance, try reading this; https://www.cpt.org/files/Undoing Racism - Understanding White Privilege - Kendall.pdf

if not, no bother. Wasn't looking to start an argument (especially those narrow minded enough to feel they are exempt from the rule  - joke)

I've read an awful lot on the subject, honestly. I have no achievements so nothing to tear away like!

I don't agree with that at all though. I was born in to relative squalor and race had nothing to do with my upbringing. I honestly never saw it til I was about 12. The issue with that pdf is it focuses on equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. For example: "The statistics from the 1995 Glass Ceiling Commission show that, while white men constitute about 43% of the work force, they hold 95% of senior management positions in American industry. Looking purely at white privilege, white women hold about 40% of the middle management positions, while Black women hold 5% and Black men hold 4%." Not only is this a focus on outcomes rather than the opportunity, but it's ignoring, certainly in this country, the class divide. The reality is that black and minority ethnic people tend to fall in to the working class bracket, and that for me is the issue rather than race.

The other issue is viewing people as a collective. I'd rather it treated me with the autonomy I deserve than as a group of radically different individuals, 'white people'.

I've read through half of that but I really don't have the patience honestly. It doesn't actually give any proof for those claims, rather than just launching in to talking about how white people 'don't have to listen' or 'see white as normal'.

I'm afraid I'm still unconvinced. I don't buy in the slightest that because of the colour of my skin I have been afforded any privilege in modern society whatsoever. I think had I been born upper class and well off then you could say I'd been born with privilege, but not because I'm a certain colour. I won't carry a new white mans burden because of that. 

[Monkeh]

16 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

So, racism/prejudice/discrimination is all fiction then, only exists in the imagination and minds of people who didn't work hard enough, or gave up too soon, is that what you are saying here?

thats not what he's saying and you know it!

[RUSSEL85]

1 minute ago, Bryans Left Peg said:

There's so many other factors in play, this just simply isn't true. Times are changing but you only have to look at certain roles and there's a clear indication that racism still plays/played a big hand.

For example, black children are reportedly 12x less likely to be UK prime minister. 

 

Isnt Britain 87% White British according to the census? So surely that figure is a little unfair?

[Bryans Left Peg]

5 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

No.

Of course it exists, however, I'm fed-up with race being thrown around for every decision that goes against whoever it is.  On the flip side, I'm also fed up with "white privilege" being thrown around for achievements. 

What I'm saying is, it seems like the world as a society like to blame everyone except themselves. Its getting a bit tiring.  I'm not just talking about race..... 

I completely understand and respect your point.

It's not our fault it exists or happens and shouldn't be used as a derogatory term to shit on people's accomplishments, I just think it's important to be aware of white privilege, the fact that it's there and it exists. 

Apologies if it was taken that way, granted I didn't really follow up my comment with much explanation re my view point!!

[Bryans Left Peg]

4 minutes ago, RUSSEL85 said:

Isnt Britain 87% White British according to the census? So surely that figure is a little unfair?

Excellent point, I've never explored that and you're right it's around 80%. Thanks for making that point.

I think it'll be interesting to see when the UK has its first black prime minister.

[You Do The Dziekanowski]

7 minutes ago, Bryans Left Peg said:

There's so many other factors in play, this just simply isn't true. Times are changing but you only have to look at certain roles and there's a clear indication that racism still plays/played a big hand.

For example, black children are reportedly 12x less likely to be UK prime minister. 

 

Personally I do not believe that it’s still the case. It certainly was as you said but not now. 

 

In regards to the prime minister stat I’m sure the majority of constituencies would vote for whoever has the best policies and can actually back up the promises made when in power. Only a tiny minority would see skin colour as a reason not to vote. 

 

[RUSSEL85]

1 minute ago, Bryans Left Peg said:

Excellent point, I've never explored that and you're right it's around 80%. Thanks for making that point.

I think it'll be interesting to see when the UK has its first black prime minister.

Im sure it will happen in the future but for me its based on the skill set, not ethnicity. I have seen in the past the BBC advertising jobs but only for "minority groups". Positive discrimination is still discrimination in my eyes.

[Bryans Left Peg]

13 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

I've read an awful lot on the subject, honestly. I have no achievements so nothing to tear away like!

I don't agree with that at all though. I was born in to relative squalor and race had nothing to do with my upbringing. I honestly never saw it til I was about 12. The issue with that pdf is it focuses on equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. For example: "The statistics from the 1995 Glass Ceiling Commission show that, while white men constitute about 43% of the work force, they hold 95% of senior management positions in American industry. Looking purely at white privilege, white women hold about 40% of the middle management positions, while Black women hold 5% and Black men hold 4%." Not only is this a focus on outcomes rather than the opportunity, but it's ignoring, certainly in this country, the class divide. The reality is that black and minority ethnic people tend to fall in to the working class bracket, and that for me is the issue rather than race.

The other issue is viewing people as a collective. I'd rather it treated me with the autonomy I deserve than as a group of radically different individuals, 'white people'.

I've read through half of that but I really don't have the patience honestly. It doesn't actually give any proof for those claims, rather than just launching in to talking about how white people 'don't have to listen' or 'see white as normal'.

I'm afraid I'm still unconvinced. I don't buy in the slightest that because of the colour of my skin I have been afforded any privilege in modern society whatsoever. I think had I been born upper class and well off then you could say I'd been born with privilege, but not because I'm a certain colour. I won't carry a new white mans burden because of that. 

Appreciate the thought out response and I actually agree with a lot of what you've said around the class divide issue. I've studied many reports which ultimately share similar thinking to you.

I disagree personally, but respect your opinion. Neither idea shouldn't be dismissed offhandedly.

 I think it's a good debate for society to have.

[Super]

21 minutes ago, Bryans Left Peg said:

There's so many other factors in play, this just simply isn't true. Times are changing but you only have to look at certain roles and there's a clear indication that racism still plays/played a big hand.

For example, black children are reportedly 12x less likely to be UK prime minister. 

 

So you think that is down to racism?

[EmissionImpossible]

3 minutes ago, Super said:

So you think that is down to racism?

Of course it is, black children and adults do not enjoy the privileges that white people do. It’s not always down to direct discrimination but history and society has played a huge part in this country not having more black people in important/prominent  roles.

[Super]

4 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

Of course it is, black children and adults do not enjoy the privileges that white people do. It’s not always down to direct discrimination but history and society has played a huge part in this country not having more black people in important/prominent  roles.

So nothing to do with that fact there are far more white children then?

[Monkeh]

3 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

Of course it is, black children and adults do not enjoy the privileges that white people do. It’s not always down to direct discrimination but history and society has played a huge part in this country not having more black people in important/prominent  roles.

aren't two of the most important roles in this country taken by people from minority back grounds (home secretary and shadow home secretary) as well as one of the most important jobs in london ie the mayor,

we've also got a person of minority decent in the royal family ,

so the opportunities  are there 

[ZiderEyed]

11 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

Of course it is, black children and adults do not enjoy the privileges that white people do. It’s not always down to direct discrimination but history and society has played a huge part in this country not having more black people in important/prominent  roles.

Like what (specifically) out of interest?

[Bryans Left Peg]

21 minutes ago, Super said:

So you think that is down to racism?

Indirectly, I do. Racism over the last few hundreds of years and the stigma around it and the divide that existed back then.

The whites were rich and the blacks were slaves, so whites had all this money, homes, businesses that was being passed down from generation and enabling better upbringings, education, opportunities etc 

I'm trying to be careful not to exaggerate my point, but it doesn't just change overnight and I think some of the effects are still being felt. 

It's much, much better now, and I think the majority of the brits see and treat everyone as equals now, but it still exists.

You can see it in the media, you can see it in the older generations, white supremacy still exists, shite like the EDL, Katie Hopkins, Tommy Robinson etc

 

Sajid Khan - first Muslim London Mayor - 2016

Bernie Grant - first black UK MP - 1987 (parliament has been around since 1700s)

No black PM, since 1771.

Lewisham just three months ago appointed their first ever CEO.

 

Over in the states (where there's a higher racial divide, granted), Obama, first and only black US president.

Half of the states have never nominated a black person to the UN House of Representatives.

 

I'm not and have never said racism and white privilege is the only factor, because it's not and there are several at play. But it IS a factor, 100%.

 

[Bryans Left Peg]

15 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Like what (specifically) out of interest?

In 2016, black people accounted for 45% of those arrested. Whites just 22%. (Blacks account for just over 10% of population)

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/number-of-arrests/lates

94% of the police force are white. 4% are black.

There are around 30 black court judges v 2,500 white judges.

Black people earn on average £9,600 a year less than their white counterpart in the same job.

Whites are 68% likely to own their own home v 21% for blacks. 

Blacks are 3x more likely to rely on state support.

Blacks are almost 3x likely to be on, or around drug abuse.

 

This was supplied by the Conservatives in their race report last year.

[Bryans Left Peg]

You might take away your own opinion on those statistics, as is your right but I feel that they show the disadvantage they have which ultimately stems from centuries (even just decades) of discrimination.

[Slacker]

Years ago I spent several years trying to join the Fire Service. At that time the service was very actively seeking to recruit women and ethnic minorities.The official line was that all applications were given a number and drawn out at random,then those applicants were given the opportunity to apply for the selection process.Needless to say despite several years of applying I never even got a chance to try for selection.I was extremely disappointed but had to take it on the chin.That was just the way it was.

[ZiderEyed]

Just now, Bryans Left Peg said:

In 2016, black people accounted for 45% of those arrested. Whites just 22%. (Blacks account for just over 10% of population)

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/number-of-arrests/lates

94% of the police force are white. 4% are black.

Crime is committed out of necessity. It has everything to do with class and nothing to do with race. 

There are around 30 black court judges v 2,500 white judges.

Interesting one and hard to actually speak definitively on as I don't know enough about it. Perhaps you're more likely to go to university and get sufficient qualifications if you're middle class, rather than working class. I'd be interested to know the backgrounds of judges in this scenario. I don't want to trivialise it, however.

Black people earn on average £9,600 a year less than their white counterpart in the same job.

Like to know where they got this figure. If it's anything like the gender pay gap number its a number taken from all across society and not actually comparing the occupations themselves. There are no variables taken in to account. 

Whites are 68% likely to own their own home v 21% for blacks. 

Everything to do with class again.

Blacks are 3x more likely to rely on state support.

Everything to do with class.

Blacks are almost 3x likely to be on, or around drug abuse.

Everything to do with class.

 

This was supplied by the Conservatives in their race report last year.

Without wanting to look like I'm dismissing it I really do think class is the issue with almost all of these. I can't see where racism could even be brought in for some of these. I'd argue the pertinent issue is that the Windrush generation were simply adopted in to the working class and social mobility was limited for people of all races in this societal group.

[EmissionImpossible]

37 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

aren't two of the most important roles in this country taken by people from minority back grounds (home secretary and shadow home secretary) as well as one of the most important jobs in london ie the mayor,

we've also got a person of minority decent in the royal family ,

so the opportunities  are there 

 

31 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Like what (specifically) out of interest?

@Bryans Left Peg has explained much better than I could ever have done. @ZIDERHEAD.

 @Monkeh yes there is some representation but nowhere near enough.

[EmissionImpossible]

Also class and race tend to go hand in hand, far more black people as a percentage are working class than should be.

[EmissionImpossible]

Apologies for hijacking this thread everyone, an interesting topic nonetheless. Possibly football chat isn’t the place for it though!

[Bryans Left Peg]

4 minutes ago, Slacker said:

Years ago I spent several years trying to join the Fire Service. At that time the service was very actively seeking to recruit women and ethnic minorities.The official line was that all applications were given a number and drawn out at random,then those applicants were given the opportunity to apply for the selection process.Needless to say despite several years of applying I never even got a chance to try for selection.I was extremely disappointed but had to take it on the chin.That was just the way it was.

If your name is Adam you are 6x more likely to be offered an interview than if your name Muslim, foreign or exotic sounding.

They should take that, along with centuries of racial injustice and social neglect, on the chin because you didn't get one job opportunity?

 

Apologies to all if it sounds like I'm preaching.

[Monkeh]

6 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

 

@Bryans Left Peg has explained much better than I could ever have done. @ZIDERHEAD.

 @Monkeh yes there is some representation but nowhere near enough.

but it's improving is the point I'm making, that would be unheard of even just 10 years ago imo

[ZiderEyed]

5 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

Apologies for hijacking this thread everyone, an interesting topic nonetheless. Possibly football chat isn’t the place for it though!

Aye I give it an hour til it's moved!

[Bryans Left Peg]

6 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Without wanting to look like I'm dismissing it I really do think class is the issue with almost all of these. I can't see where racism could even be brought in for some of these. I'd argue the pertinent issue is that the Windrush generation were simply adopted in to the working class and social mobility was limited for people of all races in this societal group.

Granted, but where did this class divide come from? It's not coincidence or luck, there's a direct relation surely?

Also, there's no chance that blacks are responsible for 45% of crimes and whites just 22%. 

4 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

Apologies for hijacking this thread everyone, an interesting topic nonetheless. Possibly football chat isn’t the place for it though!

Agreed, I'll shut up now!!

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, You Do The Dziekanowski said:

It’s like the Paul ince situation all over again. 

You aren’t in a job because you aren’t good at it. (For the level you aspire to be at) 

Simple as that. 

If I was black and I got a job because they feel they have to have x amount of black employees I’d be fuming. 

I understand and accept your point, but this is not true in all situations.

Personally, I am not convinced that positive discrimination is always helpful, but, and trust me when I say I am not being facetious, if you were black and starving I suggest you would accept paid work under any conditions, as, of course, would most people, whatever their colour, but that is not the point.

Many years ago, I spent some time in South Africa, at a time when the ghastly, odious apartheid system was in the process of being abolished, and I came in to contact with many black (and coloured) largely uneducated men and women, who, almost without exception, were only to happy to recount how pleased they were to be employed by white families as drivers, gardeners, housemaids etc: they were paid, housed and fed, and were obviously happy with their lot.

Now I don't want to get in to a discussion/argument about white privilege etc., but it is clear these black people were employed because the jobs they were doing were considered 'below', or too poorly paid for the average, mainly educated white person: of course, the system at that time was horrid and, fortunately, has now changed so that black people receive an education, but the point I wanted to make was that, occasionally, people are happy to be employed what the reason.  

 

 

[Anglo-Welsh]

50 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

Of course it is, black children and adults do not enjoy the privileges that white people do. It’s not always down to direct discrimination but history and society has played a huge part in this country not having more black people in important/prominent  roles.

Non-sense. Look at Avon & Somerset police as an example which I know a lot about.

My cousin applied to be a bobby within A&S. Passed all the tests and interviews. They told him the only role available for him would be in Basingstoke, so to follow his dream of becoming a police officer he's had to leave his native Bristol (the streets and areas he knows well and could police well) to go to another part of the country.

The reason for this? Not because Basingstoke need more coppers, but because A&S police have a quota to fill on black and ethnic officers i.e. people less qualified can get a job in Bristol purely based on their skin colour.

So to answer your question, yes I'd say in modern society a number of ethnic minorities do have it better as they are given preferential treatment in some employment sectors based purely on the colour of their skin.

Likewise, if my cousin had lied and said he was a homosexual, he would have been more liekly to get the job based in Bristol, but that's another argument......

[ZiderEyed]

1 minute ago, Bryans Left Peg said:

Granted, but where did this class divide come from? It's not coincidence or luck, there's a direct relation surely?

Also, there's no chance that blacks are responsible for 45% of crimes and whites just 22%. 

Agreed, I'll shut up now!!

Firstly, I don't know, but to jump to racism is illogical.

I fully believe there is a chance that can happen. We needn't start on gang culture, poverty, drugs, or lack of father figures in black communities.

Lets leave it there!