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Oh dear Devon and Cornwall police....


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16 hours ago, Newquay-Red said:

This is the same Devon and Cornwall police whose 'Commissioner' claimed she supported people getting guns to fight against 'terrorists'- seemingly oblivious of all the potential issues that would come from it! I loved growing up here, but, like so many promising graduates, it is time to leave. Among the lowest wages, yet amongst the highest growth in property prices out of London. Whole seaside villages lay dormant in the winter due to them being second homes. I still maintain that we have more in common with Wales and Scotland than the rest of England, but we're too small to care about. We are the world's first post-industrial region, and a sad indictment of what is to come in many other regions in Europe that are beginning to get rid of their industry too. Thanks to the second home owners registering to vote at their Cornish addresses, we're all safe Tory seats too!

We were always last in the queue to the point where we qualified for much of the EU's funding for the poorest areas of Northern Europe. Now thanks to Brexit, we are still at the back of the queue, only the queue is much, much bigger. Oh well, at least we took back control! The bus said so!

Grrr. I think I need a glass of water. Not to drink, but to pour over my head.

You can say the same about much of Devon and Dorset.

Tourism is a rubbish industry - low wage seasonal jobs for locals in exchange for clogged roads and beaches - and the second homes and holiday lets that destory villages should be taxed to extinction.  Walking through south coast villages on the Roseland or Kingsand in the winter you can see how the majority of houses are are shut up and there are few cars parked.  For the few families left living there facilities are zero and the village school will have been closed decades ago.

Without diverting it into an EU debate I really question the value of that objective one funding - rubbish like the wave hub (electricity generated in ten years through that hub - nil) and big construction projects that made millions for construction companies and gave jobs to a lot of out of county workers but did nothing for local wages or living standards.  If it had instead been used to entice down some major employers similar to Sunderland's Nissan factory that would bring well paid long term employment opportunities for locals then it would have been money well spent.  As it was a lot of consultants became very rich on that money and I can guarantee that none of them lived in Cornwall.

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34 minutes ago, lenred said:

If that did happen (which I doubt but you never know) then hopefully Cornwall will have enough UK workers willing to work in the processing of the fish - a genuine concern already of the fishing industry there at its current levels where apparently 70% of the Labour are EU migrants because British people just don’t want to do the work.  Same goes for the agricultural industry there as well. 

This is a nonsense.

For centuries "British people" were happy to work seasonally - fruit picking, hop picking - and to do manual work.  Why they are less so now is not down to laziness or disinclination but to two main things:

House prices - often women would do this seasonal work, now women have to go out to work year round as well in order to meet the mortgage  or rent.  A family buying a decent house in their twenties on one salary - forget it.

Benefits sanctions and poor administration - you can find your benefits interrupted by six weeks for as little as a change of address; if an unemployed person takes a few  weeks work fruit picking then they will probably find themselves out of pocket for doing so.

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1 minute ago, Eddie Hitler said:

This is a nonsense.

For centuries "British people" were happy to work seasonally - fruit picking, hop picking - and to do manual work.  Why they are less so now is not down to laziness or disinclination but to two main things:

House prices - often women would do this seasonal work, now women have to go out to work year round as well in order to meet the mortgage  or rent.  A family buying a decent house in their twenties on one salary - forget it.

Benefits sanctions and poor administration - you can find your benefits interrupted by six weeks for as little as a change of address; if an unemployed person takes a few  weeks work fruit picking then they will probably find themselves out of pocket for doing so.

I said absolutely nothing about laziness and neither was it implied so I’m not sure where that’s come from?

Regardless of the socio economic reasons as to why UK citizens won’t /can’t do the work, it’s a fact that they currently don’t in any great number and it’s also a fact that as a result the local economy in Cornwall will see a further negative effect as a result if they can’t find people to do the work. So, unless the government amends the benefit system to allow this work to be carried out without penalty, (vaguely possible but will take years and will probably be too late - see universal tax credits taking 7 years so far to implement) or the housing market sees a complete and utter downturn which allows low wage families such as those who process food to buy their own home in Cornwall (far less likely) then it won’t change. 

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Just now, lenred said:

I said absolutely nothing about laziness and neither was it implied so I’m not sure where that’s come from?

Regardless of the socio economic reasons as to why UK citizens won’t /can’t do the work, it’s a fact that they currently don’t in any great number and it’s also a fact that as a result the local economy in Cornwall will see a further negative effect as a result if they can’t find people to do the work. So, unless the government amends the benefit system to allow this work to be carried out without penalty, (vaguely possible but will take years and will probably be too late - see universal tax credits taking 7 years so far to implement) or the housing market sees a complete and utter downturn which allows low wage families such as those who process food to buy their own home in Cornwall (far less likely) then it won’t change. 

I agree with that, but where it came from was your saying "British people just don't want to do the work" which as I said is incorrect.  They (we) are happy to do the work but are not in a position where it makes sense to do the work.

If however you come form a country with a poor benefits system and cheap houses (which is what Britain used to be) then doing that work materially improves your life.  Do ten years seasonal work in Britain and you can buy your house in Moldova (say).  I have no complaint about these migrant workers doing this as without the changes that you note British people will not be in a position to do these jobs any time soon.

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1 minute ago, Eddie Hitler said:

I agree with that, but where it came from was your saying "British people just don't want to do the work" which as I said is incorrect.  They (we) are happy to do the work but are not in a position where it makes sense to do the work.

If however you come form a country with a poor benefits system and cheap houses (which is what Britain used to be) then doing that work materially improves your life.  Do ten years seasonal work in Britain and you can buy your house in Moldova (say).  I have no complaint about these migrant workers doing this as without the changes that you note British people will not be in a position to do these jobs any time soon.

I never said it was to do with laziness and my apologies if that’s how it was understood. There are numerous reasons why  - two very good ones outlined by yourself. Whatever the reasons though it is (unfortunately for Cornish and the wider UK food processing as well as countless other lower paid jobs) a fact that EU migrant workers will do the work, again for the reasons you outlined, but will be far less able and willing to do them post Brexit and it’s a fact that will need to be addressed.

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2 minutes ago, lenred said:

I never said it was to do with laziness and my apologies if that’s how it was understood. There are numerous reasons why  - two very good ones outlined by yourself. Whatever the reasons though it is (unfortunately for Cornish and the wider UK food processing as well as countless other lower paid jobs) a fact that EU migrant workers will do the work, again for the reasons you outlined, but will be far less able and willing to do them post Brexit and it’s a fact that will need to be addressed.

Agreed!

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9 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

RE: @BS4 on Tour...

Well aside from the destruction of Cornwall's identity and trying to turn it in to a sort of rural London, Rick Stein doesn't actually buy fish from local fisheries. He buys from a fish merchant and ignores the actual fishermen that have lived in Cornwall their entire lives. 

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jun/16/no-fishermans-friend-rumours-surface-of-bitterness-against-rick-stein-in-cornwall

The bitterness against Stein is so pronounced that a terrorist organisation in the mould of the IRA called the Cornish National Liberation Army (CNLA) attacked one of his restaurants.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jun/14/terrorism.ukcrime

It is hard to argue that Stein isn't trying to gentrify and eliminate the customs of an area that is fundamentally different to the rest of England.

"The celebrity chef already owns four restaurants and four hotels there and has now bought the Cornish Arms in St Merryn.

Mr Stein said the move was to "help preserve the Great British local" but has prompted residents to dub the area 'Padstein'.

Well it says here (see link below) that his seafood supplier is Cornwall based and he’s worked with him ‘for decades’ - so how is that ‘royally f*cking’ local fishermen? Don’t you think they sell their catches to the seafood supplier?

http://www.dorsetmagazine.co.uk/food-drink/restaurants/rick-stein-s-newly-opened-sandbanks-restaurant-1-4369512

And the link you provided on ‘terrorism’ is nothing to do with Rick Stein ‘royally f*cking’ local fishermen....it says that activist group will target anyone who flies the flag of St George, amongst other things....hardly to do with the fishing industry in Cornwall....

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17 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Still, at least after a slight delay - caused entirely by the EU - the Cornish fishing fleet will be allowed to reassemble and fish British waters unfettered again for the first time in 40 years plus.

The majority of the Cornish fleet having been forcibly scrapped over that time due to the EU of course

Regaining control of British waters is a massive plus for Cornwall, and Cornishmen.

And where exactly will they be able to sell that extra fish?

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7 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Well it says here (see link below) that his seafood supplier is Cornwall based and he’s worked with him ‘for decades’ - so how is that ‘royally f*cking’ local fishermen? Don’t you think they sell their catches to the seafood supplier?

http://www.dorsetmagazine.co.uk/food-drink/restaurants/rick-stein-s-newly-opened-sandbanks-restaurant-1-4369512

And the link you provided on ‘terrorism’ is nothing to do with Rick Stein ‘royally f*cking’ local fishermen....it says that activist group will target anyone who flies the flag of St George, amongst other things....hardly to do with the fishing industry in Cornwall....

The incident being referred to is this one from June last year in Porthleven and it is noted that he had fallen out with local fishermen:
 

Quote

 

Firefighters are investigating whether a “severe” blaze at one of Rick Stein's flagship Cornish restaurants was started deliberately.

A major investigation was underway on Monday after the celebrity chef's upmarket eatery in the tiny port of Porthleven came within minutes of being completely destroyed.

Stein's move into the historic village angered many locals - including several fisherman - after he allegedly snubbed them despite promoting fresh food from local waters on his menu.


 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/12/rick-stein-restaurant-may-have-burned-purpose-firefighters-say/

 

The fire was claimed to have been deliberately started by a Cornish terrorist group on socisl media but when investigated was found to be accidental.

I think I'd be royally sick of Rick Stein if I lived in Padstow but I don't so am not bothered by him.

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2 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

The incident being referred to is this one from June last year in Porthleven and it is noted that he had fallen out with local fishermen:
 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/12/rick-stein-restaurant-may-have-burned-purpose-firefighters-say/

 

The fire was claimed to have been deliberately started by a Cornish terrorist group on socisl media but when investigated was found to be accidental.

I think I'd be royally sick of Rick Stein if I lived in Padstow but I don't so am not bothered by him.

So to sum up, he has sourced his fish from a local, Cornwall based seafood supplier for decades and a small fire in the bins at one of his restaurants was an accident and nothing to do with terrorism.....seems like a non story here about the ‘evil’ Mr Stein...

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1 minute ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

So to sum up, he has sourced his fish from a local, Cornwall based seafood supplier for decades and a small fire in the bins at one of his restaurants was an accident and nothing to do with terrorism.....seems like a non story here about the ‘evil’ Mr Stein...

Yes.  Though it was a story for a while until the investigation had completed.

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3 hours ago, havanatopia said:

So you are saying one formula fits all in Cornwall then are you? What if someone did the same as you and decided his interests would be best served leaving the EU? You think he is dumb I supppse. Wow.

I hear that by the time we come out the other side we will have waived away much of those clawing back of rights. Hope not and hope we tell the EU to stuff it.

Before you try and stab me, sadly for the massive majority of Cornishman, yes remaining is a no brainer. We DO NOT GET ANYTHING FROM THE UK GOVERNMENT. Sure, there's some around who may have made an educated decision to leave, such as the MoD employees for example. However, even people who voted Leave here are regretting it. You might not like what I am saying but I am speaking from living here and knowing the sheer amount of EU investment that props this place up. The low crime rate makes people overlook the sheer poverty and neglect, with more local services leaving due to cost cutting. 

Many got caught up in the disgusting lies that the Leave campaign told us all. So no, I don't think they were dumb. I do, however, think they were heavily misguided, and many will regret their decision when we fall into further disrepair as a county, with nobody left to listen to us.

 

Just a follow up- how many of you who liked Noggers' post are actually from Cornwall? Furthermore, are any of you fishermen from Cornwall?

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36 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

And where exactly will they be able to sell that extra fish?

Not following you. Where did these extra fish go before our fleet was decimated by the EU?

Do you feel everything has to be seen in terms of exports - are our 65m population not capable of eating our own fish while importing far less?

We will have a greatly enlarged fishing fleet and the employment, activity and pride will return to historical fishing areas like Cornwall.

It's a huge win, win for Cornwall & Britain - the fishing industry can't wait to get back control of our traditional waters so they obviously believe there will be a ready market for the vastly increased catch as well as being a huge psychological boost for areas depressed in the 40 odd years that the EU has largely destroyed our fleets.

 

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10 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

RE: @BS4 on Tour...

Well aside from the destruction of Cornwall's identity and trying to turn it in to a sort of rural London, Rick Stein doesn't actually buy fish from local fisheries. He buys from a fish merchant and ignores the actual fishermen that have lived in Cornwall their entire lives. 

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jun/16/no-fishermans-friend-rumours-surface-of-bitterness-against-rick-stein-in-cornwall

The bitterness against Stein is so pronounced that a terrorist organisation in the mould of the IRA called the Cornish National Liberation Army (CNLA) attacked one of his restaurants.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jun/14/terrorism.ukcrime

It is hard to argue that Stein isn't trying to gentrify and eliminate the customs of an area that is fundamentally different to the rest of England.

"The celebrity chef already owns four restaurants and four hotels there and has now bought the Cornish Arms in St Merryn.

Mr Stein said the move was to "help preserve the Great British local" but has prompted residents to dub the area 'Padstein'.

 

 

This is by far the most accurate perspective. Locals hate Rick Stein. He is the poster boy of the second home owners that drain our county, inflate house prices, and gentrify the seaside villages to the point of being unrecognisable. This is something that transcends political orientation. His fish is crap, expensive and no longer from Cornwall. He snubs local fishermen, aggressively aims to put traditional local fish and chip shops out of business just to add to his empire, and then has the audacity to claim he loves this region. He doesn't- he is just profiting off its gentrification. If I ever saw him, I would tell him that he is a walking cancer to us. Padstein is a very common derogatory nickname for Padstow and a scary sign of what the rest of the Cornish coast could become.

I have to admit, when his restaurant got firebombed I thought it was hilarious. In fact, I didn't speak with a single person who did not think that. The man is as cold as the fish he tries to shove down our throats and the sooner he gets out of here, the better.

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12 minutes ago, Newquay-Red said:

Just a follow up- how many of you who liked Noggers' post are actually from Cornwall? Furthermore, are any of you fishermen from Cornwall?

Not sure what that has to do with anything? Are you a fisherman yourself?

The Cornish fishermen are still very much in favour of Brexit.

They do not regret voting to leave, their current anger and frustration is due entirely to the prevarication and bloody mindedness of the EU whose endless delaying tactics will prevent us regaining full control of our waters for a couple of years after we leave.

The main thing is that the regaining of control that your local fisherman so passionately desire will happen and when it does it will be a fantastic boost for fishing areas like Cornwall. 

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I fully expect to be completely hammered next Monday night reflecting after the game with friends and spouting drivel like,  "a draw is better than a loss", "we're notoriously slow starters", "the players are still gelling". "the referee was atrocious", "it was a fluke goal mind". We'll then probably reminicse on David's Platt's last minute goal against Belgium in Italia 90.  

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4 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Well it says here (see link below) that his seafood supplier is Cornwall based and he’s worked with him ‘for decades’ - so how is that ‘royally f*cking’ local fishermen? Don’t you think they sell their catches to the seafood supplier?

http://www.dorsetmagazine.co.uk/food-drink/restaurants/rick-stein-s-newly-opened-sandbanks-restaurant-1-4369512

I refer you to @Newquay-Red's post above. While his investment in the area is good for some economically it's hardly been superb for all parties.

Additionally, when I say local, Stein came under flak a lot for not buying from the fishermen a few hundred yards down the road, but from miles away in Newlyn.(“He doesn’t buy any fish from us. We get beautiful lobster, pollack, line-caught bass, monkfish, everything you can think of. He could walk over here and buy it but he doesn’t. He gets it from a fish merchant instead. It winds me up. He hasn’t bought one fish from me.”)

And the link you provided on ‘terrorism’ is nothing to do with Rick Stein ‘royally f*cking’ local fishermen....it says that activist group will target anyone who flies the flag of St George, amongst other things....hardly to do with the fishing industry in Cornwall....

Rick Stein's restaurant was firebombed. That link was to give an idea of the terrorist organisation themselves. The point I made was about people being dissatisfied with the gentrification that Stein represents, and thusly the erosion of Cornwall's identity. 

https://metro.co.uk/2017/07/09/cornish-terror-group-burned-rick-steins-restaurant-and-has-first-suicide-bomber-6765364/

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/cornish-terror-group-firebombs-rick-10760404

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/3195730/Rick-Stein-defends-impact-of-his-seafood-empire-on-Padstow.html

I promise you that while the job creation in the area might be a positive, the rocketing house prices are awful for Corwall, and Padstow in particular. In that article there is also a quote attached in which Stein claims he will keep using endangered species in his restaurants, as if he followed government guidelines, he would lose 80% of his menus and not be able to keep his restaurant going. This implies he is not bothered about overfishing and damages he may cause to the environment, just how much he can make, which sounds oddly like his policy with regards to Cornwall's cultural identity.

Gonna leave it there before this gets it's own non-football chat thread :laughcont:

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4 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Not following you. Where did these extra fish go before our fleet was decimated by the EU?

Do you feel everything has to be seen in terms of exports - are our 65m population not capable of eating our own fish while importing far less?

We will have a greatly enlarged fishing fleet and the employment, activity and pride will return to historical fishing areas like Cornwall.

It's a huge win, win for Cornwall & Britain - the fishing industry can't wait to get back control of our traditional waters so they obviously believe there will be a ready market for the vastly increased catch as well as being a huge psychological boost for areas depressed in the 40 odd years that the EU has largely destroyed our fleets.

 

 

Actually, once the fishing industry realised they may face tariffs on the fish they land - of which more is exported to the EU than is eaten domestically - they began to change their tune.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38345826

Not the only group of people to be misled by conman Farage and his tax evading ilk.

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4 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

China, Africa, Japan, the Americas, Russia.

It's a big world out there.

And why the hell would any of those countries choose to buy our fish, at huge add on transport costs, when they do not import fish now? Our only market is, as it has been since The Middle Ages, when Bristol supplied cod to The Med, Europe.

Shellfishermen are already saying they will be unable to export to Europe because of the necessary customs delays preventing their catch getting there in good nick.  Same will apply to fish. I have no sympathy with the fishermen who overwhelmingly supported Brexit without giving a moment's clear thinking to the issue.  They will now be paying the penalty, but sadly so will the rest of us.

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43 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Actually, once the fishing industry realised they may face tariffs on the fish they land - of which more is exported to the EU than is eaten domestically - they began to change their tune.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38345826

Not the only group of people to be misled by conman Farage and his tax evading ilk.

'House of lords report.' :laughcont:

Well they should know shouldn't they, and they've never been known to be negative about Brexit at all. :whistle2:

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1 hour ago, ZiderEyed said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/3195730/Rick-Stein-defends-impact-of-his-seafood-empire-on-Padstow.html

I promise you that while the job creation in the area might be a positive, the rocketing house prices are awful for Corwall, and Padstow in particular. In that article there is also a quote attached in which Stein claims he will keep using endangered species in his restaurants, as if he followed government guidelines, he would lose 80% of his menus and not be able to keep his restaurant going. This implies he is not bothered about overfishing and damages he may cause to the environment, just how much he can make, which sounds oddly like his policy with regards to Cornwall's cultural identity.

Gonna leave it there before this gets it's own non-football chat thread :laughcont:

You’re right, the locals can no longer afford to live locally!  I remember being on holiday just outside Padstow and getting a taxi home.  Asked the “drive” where he lived, and he said Wadebridge, grew up in Padstow, but been forced out by rising prices.  And that was before Joe was born, so 13 years ago.

Struggle to find a Cornish accent these days.

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40 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

And why the hell would any of those countries choose to buy our fish, at huge add on transport costs, when they do not import fish now? Our only market is, as it has been since The Middle Ages, when Bristol supplied cod to The Med, Europe.

Shellfishermen are already saying they will be unable to export to Europe because of the necessary customs delays preventing their catch getting there in good nick.  Same will apply to fish. I have no sympathy with the fishermen who overwhelmingly supported Brexit without giving a moment's clear thinking to the issue.  They will now be paying the penalty, but sadly so will the rest of us.

You're widening the debate from the fishing industries to Brexit as a whole.

That's an argument already decided democratically by the people in the referendum.

How about getting behind Britain, including our resurgent fishing industry?

Time to move this to non footy mods.

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1 minute ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

'House of lords report.' :laughcont:

Well they should know shouldn't they, and they've never been known to be negative about Brexit at all. :whistle2:

It's actually written by experts who understand the market. It was commissioned by the Lords - those from all sides of the argument  to try to persuade the government not to neglect the fishery topic in negotiations.

That said, you don't need to be an expert to realise if you limit your access to your biggest market (the EU) you might limit your future profitability.

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3 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

It's actually written by experts who understand the market. It was commissioned by the Lords - those from all sides of the argument  to try to persuade the government not to neglect the fishery topic in negotiations.

That said, you don't need to be an expert to realise if you limit your access to your biggest market (the EU) you might limit your future profitability.

Which experts?

It says the 'House of lords European Union Committee' has released a report.

Rotten to the core bedfellows if ever there were any.

Further down analysts, the fishing industry (and the government) seem very happy with the 'significant increase in allowable catches which augurs well for the future of British fishing outside the EU.... with full control of our exclusive 200 mile economic zone.... which will benefit our coastal communities.'

That'll do for me.

 

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1 minute ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Which experts?

It says the 'House of lords European Union Committee' has released a report.

Rotten to the core bedfellows if ever there were any.

Further down analysts, the fishing industry (and the government) seem very happy with the 'significant increase in allowable catches which augurs well for the future of British fishing outside the EU.... with full control of our exclusive 200 mile economic zone.... which will benefit our coastal communities.'

That'll do for me.

 

The government says the chaotic, unplanned and generally disastrous course it is steering "augurs well". Pffft! It would wouldn't it. I don't know many others who think the same - of either Leave or Remain opinion.

The fact is fishing declined because A) We sold our fishing quotas, which were the EU's second largest  B) For centuries the North Sea and English Channel were overfished. Brexit isn't suddenly gonna make the fish return. C)  UK consumers switched to largely eating cod and imported king prawns and tuna. Fish traditionally eaten in coastal British communities now are more common in European cuisine than in British kitchens. 

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5 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

The government says the chaotic, unplanned and generally disastrous course it is steering "augurs well". Pffft! It would wouldn't it. I don't know many others who think the same - of either Leave or Remain opinion.

The fact is fishing declined because A) We sold our fishing quotas, which were the EU's second largest  B) For centuries the North Sea and English Channel were overfished. Brexit isn't suddenly gonna make the fish return. C)  UK consumers switched to largely eating cod and imported king prawns and tuna. Fish traditionally eaten in coastal British communities now are more common in European cuisine than in British kitchens. 

The government, the analysts ( are they 'experts'?) and the heads of the fishing industry were referring specifically to the fishing industry, as was this debate.

We'll see about Brexit but not everyone is as pessimistic as the House of Lords, the BBC, Tony Blair, Nick Clegg, and yourself.

The fishing industry are clearly optimistic by their quotes in your chosen article that the industry will be far better off post Brexit.

For the purposes of this debate, as I've said, that will do for me.

 

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