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Olé

The importance of saying no

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We all knew 2-3 big names would leave this summer. We could probably sense when Kodjia would leave too.

We all know the club wants to be sustainable with a model of developing and then selling players for a profit.

I just wonder if it's equally important for City to show its players it's also in the business of keeping them too.

Because I think people like Diedhiou, Brownhill, will look at this and feel envious and believe they will be next.

 

In other words our actions become self-perpetuating and every summer the best players agitate for a move.

It isn't a healthy message to the squad if we so repeatedly can't offer a contract that keeps our best players.

Perhaps this is a particularly bad summer? Well we quickly need to remind players of what our priorities are.

Perhaps we do turn interest down, and we keep it under wraps? Maybe it's time to start broadcasting it too.

 

We can't become a doormat selling club - Southampton of the Championship - and players need to know it.

If we had Barnsley/Burton budgets I'd understand. But LJ and MA have spent like Fulham/Leeds in parallel.

If we want to actually keep some players in future, they will need to be reminded which type of club we are. 

Discuss.

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Historically in recent times you could argue we haven't sold enough players on to bigger and better things. Only Adomah and Kodjia really stand out. I think it's a natural part of the footballing eco-system and if anything the fact that Flint, Kodjia, Reid and Bryan are going is perhaps a positive reflection on our recruitment/pathway in recent years. I'd be a bit worried if none of the players we were buying/promoting from the academy ever got snapped up by the bigger teams. 

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10 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Historically in recent times you could argue we haven't sold enough players on to bigger and better things. Only Adomah and Kodjia really stand out. I think it's a natural part of the footballing eco-system and if anything the fact that Flint, Kodjia, Reid and Bryan are going is perhaps a positive reflection on our recruitment/pathway in recent years. I'd be a bit worried if none of the players we were buying/promoting from the academy ever got snapped up by the bigger teams. 

The last person to leave City and move onto league-beater status was Andy Cole. Until Reid went I could only name Albert as someone we had ultimately been 100% better off keeping (Tammy does not count, obviously)

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22 minutes ago, hodge said:

Can't agree, Bobby HAD to be sold or we'd have lost him for a fraction or nothing and judging by a few of his interviews Flint's been open to moving away for a while. We're not getting ripped off and letting players leave for a fraction of their worth, if a team meets our valuation then we'll sell, but they have to meet our valuation. 

Of course we had to sell him but it's shocking how we get into these positions where contracts are running out and are over the barrel 

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2 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

Of course we had to sell him but it's shocking how we get into these positions where contracts are running out and are over the barrel 

If a player won’t sign there is nothing you can do, should we of offered Reid 30ka week?

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4 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

Of course we had to sell him but it's shocking how we get into these positions where contracts are running out and are over the barrel 

We sold with 12 months left, its not January. Also Reid's been turning down contract offers. Would you have offered a new deal last summer 2 years out before he showed signs of being a key player for us?

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4 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

Of course we had to sell him but it's shocking how we get into these positions where contracts are running out and are over the barrel 

I would agree with you usually, however I think the issue with Bobby was more a case of if he didn't come good last season, I question if we would have offered him a new contract at all.

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Just now, WolfOfWestStreet said:

If they don't sign, transfer list them. There should be no player with any current or future value with less than 2 years on their deals. 

3 years is the standard deal, so we have to start offering new deals to players after only 12 months? Watch the wage bill go up massively if that's the case. 

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1 minute ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

If they don't sign, transfer list them. There should be no player with any current or future value with less than 2 years on their deals. 

That’s what we have done with Reid 

2 years ago we would of got 10 quid let alone 10 million

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33 minutes ago, Olé said:

We all knew 2-3 big names would leave this summer. We could probably sense when Kodjia would leave too.

We all know the club wants to be sustainable with a model of developing and then selling players for a profit.

I just wonder if it's equally important for City to show its players it's also in the business of keeping them too.

Because I think people like Diedhiou, Brownhill, will look at this and feel envious and believe they will be next.

 

In other words our actions become self-perpetuating and every summer the best players agitate for a move.

It isn't a healthy message to the squad if we so repeatedly can't offer a contract that keeps our best players.

Perhaps this is a particularly bad summer? Well we quickly need to remind players of what our priorities are.

Perhaps we do turn interest down, and we keep it under wraps? Maybe it's time to start broadcasting it too.

 

We can't become a doormat selling club - Southampton of the Championship - and players need to know it.

If we had Barnsley/Burton budgets I'd understand. But LJ and MA have spent like Fulham/Leeds in parallel.

If we want to actually keep some players in future, they will need to be reminded which type of club we are. 

Discuss.

Every player at every English club in the league wants to play in the Premier League.

You can't stop that desire however much you offer the player.  I don't understand why you find this so hard to understand. :blink:

We ARE a selling club because we are not at the top of the tree.  Arsenal are a selling club for the same reason.  Get over it.

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1 minute ago, hodge said:

3 years is the standard deal, so we have to start offering new deals to players after only 12 months? Watch the wage bill go up massively if that's the case. 

I guess so ... I'm just gutted and disillusioned. I'll get over it by August probably

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2 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

If they don't sign, transfer list them. There should be no player with any current or future value with less than 2 years on their deals. 

As I've noted before what if they only sign a two year deal when joining ? 

Do we transfer list them straight away ?

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1 minute ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

I guess so ... I'm just gutted and disillusioned. I'll get over it by August probably

That's a Bristol City fan's job description.

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39 minutes ago, Olé said:

We all knew 2-3 big names would leave this summer. We could probably sense when Kodjia would leave too.

We all know the club wants to be sustainable with a model of developing and then selling players for a profit.

I just wonder if it's equally important for City to show its players it's also in the business of keeping them too.

Because I think people like Diedhiou, Brownhill, will look at this and feel envious and believe they will be next.

 

In other words our actions become self-perpetuating and every summer the best players agitate for a move.

It isn't a healthy message to the squad if we so repeatedly can't offer a contract that keeps our best players.

Perhaps this is a particularly bad summer? Well we quickly need to remind players of what our priorities are.

Perhaps we do turn interest down, and we keep it under wraps? Maybe it's time to start broadcasting it too.

 

We can't become a doormat selling club - Southampton of the Championship - and players need to know it.

If we had Barnsley/Burton budgets I'd understand. But LJ and MA have spent like Fulham/Leeds in parallel.

If we want to actually keep some players in future, they will need to be reminded which type of club we are. 

Discuss.

I see what you did there :laughcont:

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17 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

If they don't sign, transfer list them. There should be no player with any current or future value with less than 2 years on their deals. 

So you would have sold Bobby for £500k last summer?

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5 minutes ago, Red Army 87 said:

So you would have sold Bobby for £500k last summer?

Probably based on his previous form, but even the most die hard Bobby Reid fan must have been a little surprised he turned into such a good striker. 

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52 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

Of course we had to sell him but it's shocking how we get into these positions where contracts are running out and are over the barrel 

******* Bosman has a lot to answer for! :grr:

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1 hour ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

If they don't sign, transfer list them. There should be no player with any current or future value with less than 2 years on their deals. 

The Peterborough model - seems to work for them!!

That being said, I think it's only really in the past couple of years that we've had more than one or two "standout" players that have attracted the attention of other clubs. It could also be argued that for that reason alone, our recruiting and/or coaching has obviously come on in leaps and bounds recently....

It's because of that reason, we find ourselves where we are today - other clubs actually wanting to buy our players - when was the last time we had to "mutually agree" to cancel a contract as nobody wanted them? 

Of course the argument stands that if we'd have gotten the recruitment right in January, then all of these players would be plying their trade in the Premiership come August, and we wouldnt be having rhese discussions. However, that's a whole different topic again (which has been done to death!!!)

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1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

If a player won’t sign there is nothing you can do, should we of offered Reid 30ka week?

 

Well that would be under £4 million over 3 years - we paid £5 million for Diedhiou (and then have his wages on top)  so yes if we wanted him to stay we should, lets be honest though he would still have left for a Premier League team.

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15 minutes ago, Fiale said:

 

Well that would be under £4 million over 3 years - we paid £5 million for Diedhiou (and then have his wages on top)  so yes if we wanted him to stay we should, lets be honest though he would still have left for a Premier League team.

Diedhiou is a better player and would of scored more then Reid if he didn’t get injured 

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1 hour ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

Of course we had to sell him but it's shocking how we get into these positions where contracts are running out and are over the barrel 

Reid refused an improved contract for the reasons he explained in his interview.

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3 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Diedhiou is a better player and would of scored more then Reid if he didn’t get injured 

He goal per game ratio was impressive given the length of time he was out. 

He has a six match ban to serve come the start of the season..........

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2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

He goal per game ratio was impressive given the length of time he was out. 

He has a six match ban to serve come the start of the season..........

We’ve appealed that citing lack of evidence i think it will ether be overturned or dropped to 2 game ban

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As a matter of clarification I wasn't a) disputing we're a selling club or b) debating when we need to make a new contract offer.

But if I'm Diedhiou, Brownhill (insert player you rate here - even Lloyd Kelly) I'm now looking forward to my opportunity to leave.

My question is how we get good players believing in a long term future with us as this week will influence the squad's thinking.

Saying no to an offer at the next opportunity (reminding them that we do actually want to keep good players) would be a start.

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I don’t believe we are a doormat selling club, but there is a limit to what can be spent on contracts for a club the size of ours if we don’t earn promotion and want to stay true to FFP and maintaining a financially sustainable club. Our success on the field last season, most noticeably in the League Cup which brought national attention, has inevitably resulted in interest in our better players from clubs with greater resources than our own. Such is football, such is life. 

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18 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

We’ve appealed that citing lack of evidence i think it will ether be overturned or dropped to 2 game ban

Oh! I thought we had appealed and it was turned down.................:dunno:

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21 minutes ago, Olé said:

As a matter of clarification I wasn't a) disputing we're a selling club or b) debating when we need to make a new contract offer.

But if I'm Diedhiou, Brownhill (insert player you rate here - even Lloyd Kelly) I'm now looking forward to my opportunity to leave.

My question is how we get good players believing in a long term future with us as this week will influence the squad's thinking.

Saying no to an offer at the next opportunity (reminding them that we do actually want to keep good players) would be a start.

Thing is if you reject an offer out of principle rather than on merit of the offer you could annoy the current players so they think they we'd stand in the way of their progression and could lead to more turning down contract extensions. Its tricky but its about a gradual process of improving the quality of the squad, players come and go, judging by interviews we are seemingly trying to play on being a club players can progress their careers from.  

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27 minutes ago, Olé said:

As a matter of clarification I wasn't a) disputing we're a selling club or b) debating when we need to make a new contract offer.

But if I'm Diedhiou, Brownhill (insert player you rate here - even Lloyd Kelly) I'm now looking forward to my opportunity to leave.

My question is how we get good players believing in a long term future with us as this week will influence the squad's thinking.

Saying no to an offer at the next opportunity (reminding them that we do actually want to keep good players) would be a start.

To be clear, you think that if Villa or Southampton come in for Brownhill (for example) and we say no, that will motivate Brownhill?  :dunno:

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3 hours ago, Olé said:

We all knew 2-3 big names would leave this summer. We could probably sense when Kodjia would leave too.

We all know the club wants to be sustainable with a model of developing and then selling players for a profit.

I just wonder if it's equally important for City to show its players it's also in the business of keeping them too.

Because I think people like Diedhiou, Brownhill, will look at this and feel envious and believe they will be next.

 

In other words our actions become self-perpetuating and every summer the best players agitate for a move.

It isn't a healthy message to the squad if we so repeatedly can't offer a contract that keeps our best players.

Perhaps this is a particularly bad summer? Well we quickly need to remind players of what our priorities are.

Perhaps we do turn interest down, and we keep it under wraps? Maybe it's time to start broadcasting it too.

 

We can't become a doormat selling club - Southampton of the Championship - and players need to know it.

If we had Barnsley/Burton budgets I'd understand. But LJ and MA have spent like Fulham/Leeds in parallel.

If we want to actually keep some players in future, they will need to be reminded which type of club we are. 

Discuss.

Did we not keep some/all the players in question last summer & January..? Possibly/probably with the agreement that not getting promotion last season would leave us allowing them to leave at an agreeable price..?

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30 minutes ago, Olé said:

As a matter of clarification I wasn't a) disputing we're a selling club or b) debating when we need to make a new contract offer.

But if I'm Diedhiou, Brownhill (insert player you rate here - even Lloyd Kelly) I'm now looking forward to my opportunity to leave.

My question is how we get good players believing in a long term future with us as this week will influence the squad's thinking.

Saying no to an offer at the next opportunity (reminding them that we do actually want to keep good players) would be a start.

I’d say that Reid had been here 18 years and flint for 5. They are both quite a long time to be at one club in today’s football climate. I’d say we’d market it to the younger players that if you stick with us for the whole time of your contract that we’ll improve as a club but also sell if the offer is right.

Flints scenario will also show that them if they sign an extension we will take into account offers from bigger clubs to help the player move forward but also protect our investment.

Thinking hopefully, Brownhill, etc would see that and think knuckle down and play well for 2-3 seasons and that will be me

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35 minutes ago, Olé said:

As a matter of clarification I wasn't a) disputing we're a selling club or b) debating when we need to make a new contract offer.

But if I'm Diedhiou, Brownhill (insert player you rate here - even Lloyd Kelly) I'm now looking forward to my opportunity to leave.

My question is how we get good players believing in a long term future with us as this week will influence the squad's thinking.

Saying no to an offer at the next opportunity (reminding them that we do actually want to keep good players) would be a start.

If I’m Diedhiou, Baker or any other LJ signing, I’m thinking why are we selling our best players...this isn’t what I signed up for.

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8 minutes ago, David Brent said:

If I’m Diedhiou, Baker or any other LJ signing, I’m thinking why are we selling our best players...this isn’t what I signed up for.

Well, may be if they put in the same level of commitment and consistency as Flinty and Reid the whole Club would move forwards.

More importantly just think of the fans let down again when in a strong promotion challenging position due to yet another inept January window. The double punishment for us is now watching the spine of the team, including all our favourites, being ripped out. 

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5 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Well, may be if they put in the same level of commitment and consistency as Flinty and Reid the whole Club would move forwards.

More importantly just think of the fans let down again when in a strong promotion challenging position due to yet another inept January window. The double punishment for us is now watching the spine of the team, including all our favourites, being ripped out. 

But according to many on here they’re  ‘meh’ about losing Flint and Reid as our players heads had turned after January and lacked the same commitment 

 

Somewhat bizarre as in every game I saw Flint and Reid were consistently (With Korey) the ones most noticeably giving their all

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Did we not keep some/all the players in question last summer & January..? Possibly/probably with the agreement that not getting promotion last season would leave us allowing them to leave at an agreeable price..?

Pretty sure we probably said no to advances for Joe in January

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3 hours ago, Olé said:

We all knew 2-3 big names would leave this summer. We could probably sense when Kodjia would leave too.

We all know the club wants to be sustainable with a model of developing and then selling players for a profit.

I just wonder if it's equally important for City to show its players it's also in the business of keeping them too.

Because I think people like Diedhiou, Brownhill, will look at this and feel envious and believe they will be next.

 

In other words our actions become self-perpetuating and every summer the best players agitate for a move.

It isn't a healthy message to the squad if we so repeatedly can't offer a contract that keeps our best players.

Perhaps this is a particularly bad summer? Well we quickly need to remind players of what our priorities are.

Perhaps we do turn interest down, and we keep it under wraps? Maybe it's time to start broadcasting it too.

 

We can't become a doormat selling club - Southampton of the Championship - and players need to know it.

If we had Barnsley/Burton budgets I'd understand. But LJ and MA have spent like Fulham/Leeds in parallel.

If we want to actually keep some players in future, they will need to be reminded which type of club we are. 

Discuss.

Of course EVERY CLUB wants to keep their best players, but EVERY CLUB has to sometimes sell.

In the last 12 months we've seen Barcelona lose Neymar, Liverpool: Coutinho, and Arsenal: Sanchez.

Players move clubs. This is modern football.

Our goal should not be to sink our claws into every asset, but recognise when we're fighting a losing battle and capitalise on the circumstances.

We signed Mags, Flint, and Reid for a combined £3m, and have just sold for £20m. Let's see what levels their replacements take us to, both positionally and financially.

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35 minutes ago, David Brent said:

If I’m Diedhiou, Baker or any other LJ signing, I’m thinking why are we selling our best players...this isn’t what I signed up for.

I imagin they would realise that one was nearly out of contract and the other wanted away.

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Did you purposely make all your sentences all the same length? Genuinely impressed.

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32 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

I imagin they would realise that one was nearly out of contract and the other wanted away.

Really ?

Where has Flint (Or in fact anyone) said that ?

 

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1 hour ago, Chivs said:

To be clear, you think that if Villa or Southampton come in for Brownhill (for example) and we say no, that will motivate Brownhill?  :dunno:

I'm saying somewhere we have to draw the line, or players will always be attracted to the progression they see their teammates making. I don't think "no" needs to be "no", so much as "not now". If we really believe in our players, we should bet (contract being well) on their value increasing further. 

From memory Southampton didn't sell many of their most famous exports to the first offer, club, and often not even in the first year of interest. I'm not saying we have, or will do, but with all these high profile departures, I do think we need to show that our response to interest is always club first.

Sometimes I'm guilty of applying my own experiences in business to football, but every time I've seen members of a team get promoted or get a better job, a mental countdown clock seems to go off in all their peer group, that they either need to achieve the same promotion or also get another job.

I simply think other players are at higher risk now they've seen key members of the squad move on (more so if they see them enjoying life next season).    We need to have a plan to double down on the players we want to keep for the medium term, and not let them think a good season = getting a move.

EDIT: And I think it would be a good idea to say no to Villa :whistle:

Edited by Olé
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4 hours ago, Olé said:

We all knew 2-3 big names would leave this summer. We could probably sense when Kodjia would leave too.

We all know the club wants to be sustainable with a model of developing and then selling players for a profit.

I just wonder if it's equally important for City to show its players it's also in the business of keeping them too.

Because I think people like Diedhiou, Brownhill, will look at this and feel envious and believe they will be next.

 

In other words our actions become self-perpetuating and every summer the best players agitate for a move.

It isn't a healthy message to the squad if we so repeatedly can't offer a contract that keeps our best players.

Perhaps this is a particularly bad summer? Well we quickly need to remind players of what our priorities are.

Perhaps we do turn interest down, and we keep it under wraps? Maybe it's time to start broadcasting it too.

 

We can't become a doormat selling club - Southampton of the Championship - and players need to know it.

If we had Barnsley/Burton budgets I'd understand. But LJ and MA have spent like Fulham/Leeds in parallel.

If we want to actually keep some players in future, they will need to be reminded which type of club we are. 

Discuss.

We are a selling club, a development club plus a few experienced players. We hope one day to have a mixed development and experienced squad that will gain promotion

Webster is an interesting mix of developing and experienced. In the view of a number of figures in the game he is quality. I believe he is a sognificant upgrade on the popular  , but limited  Flint

  Flint I believe has reached his peak, Webster a long way to go. Be positive 

As for Reid we would be idiots to turn down £10m - no guarantee he isn’t a one trick pony

On wards and upwards. Yes we need a goalkeeper and am sure one will be coming. Pisano is quality as is Hegeler

feeling quite positive   Bryan to go at a healthy fee too

Think we are looking at a lean and hungry squad 

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

We are a selling club, a development club plus a few experienced players. We hope one day to have a mixed development and experienced squad that will gain promotion

Webster is an interesting mix of developing and experienced. In the view of a number of figures in the game he is quality. I believe he is a sognificant upgrade on the popular  , but limited  Flint

  Flint I believe has reached his peak, Webster a long way to go. Be positive 

As for Reid we would be idiots to turn down £10m - no guarantee he isn’t a one trick pony

On wards and upwards. Yes we need a goalkeeper and am sure one will be coming. Pisano is quality as is Hegeler

feeling quite positive   Bryan to go at a healthy fee too

Think we are looking at a lean and hungry squad 

 

 

 

 

Not something I thought I'd say....

I agree.

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Feel the hearts been ripped out of this side. Gutted even though I was expecting it . Let’s sell Bryan now and get it out the way . Being a doom and gloom merchant I find it hard to think we will be higher than last seasons league position 

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I don't think its a bad thing at all for players to have the desire to better themselves. Instead of telling them no, I would tell them that our valuation has to be met in order for them to be sold and that in order for other clubs to want them at that value they will need to perform to a high standard and be consistent. 

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6 hours ago, Monkeh said:

If a player won’t sign there is nothing you can do, should we of offered Reid 30ka week?

How much do you think a top championship goalscorer is going to cost us in fees and wages?

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I'm playing Devil's Advocate with this post. 

We had a dreadful second half of last season. I doubt we will ever know the true reasons. There are so many possible different scenarios that I won't even start to list them here. 

Maybe LJ has decided to say goodbye to the remnants of the League One championship team in order to fully create his own squad. And to do so while they are still very saleable items. 

Johnson isn't ever going to be my favourite as Head Coach but while he is here, perhaps as above, he is seeking a new era without the heroes of another one. I think in his situation, I and many others would do the same. 

 

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Reid had to go. Magnússon poor so had to go too. And flint not really a ball playing type, so replaced him with the player that suits Johnson. So all ok so far imo. Hopefully we'd say no with our best players under contract of over a year, but then every player you say yes if the price is right. 

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