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Olé

The importance of saying no

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7 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

As I've noted before what if they only sign a two year deal when joining ? 

Do we transfer list them straight away ?

Christ that’ll be like @Never to the dark side on the plane to Hartlepool. Maybe if we do try to sign Dwight Gayle again we can guarantee him an onward transfer before he’s even landed at Lulsgate!?  

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I am concerned that by selling two of our best known names it may reduce our stock in the eyes of players who might have wanted to join us. They may decide that we don't have the desire to get to the Premier League and look at other teams who may give them better chances.

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8 hours ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

If they don't sign, transfer list them. There should be no player with any current or future value with less than 2 years on their deals. 

I didn’t expect such guff from you Larry.

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8 hours ago, hodge said:

Can't agree, Bobby HAD to be sold or we'd have lost him for a fraction or nothing and judging by a few of his interviews Flint's been open to moving away for a while. We're not getting ripped off and letting players leave for a fraction of their worth, if a team meets our valuation then we'll sell, but they have to meet our valuation. 

Completely agree with this... people also forget how much Player/agent power there is too, aswell as people wanting a new challenge.  Lets not  kid ourself  Flint wouldn't of signed his new contract if he didn't have some sort of agreement or clause...  Would it be worth keeping a player who didnt want to be here ? I'm not saying I know the truth here but so many are just blaming the club... Yet people bemoaned when other players left for barely anything.

Reid going from his goodbye interview I feel like he knows how hard he has worked to get where he is and maybe the prem dream wont come again.... no one told Reid to leave... if he loved City as much as he did he would of signed  a new contract or declined the move...  which he did neither and would of gone for free next summer unless we make the prem ( which of course I hope we do )

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5 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

But according to many on here they’re  ‘meh’ about losing Flint and Reid as our players heads had turned after January and lacked the same commitment 

 

Somewhat bizarre as in every game I saw Flint and Reid were consistently (With Korey) the ones most noticeably giving their all

 

 

i'm pretty much 'meh' about losing any player particularly when they go to a bigger club or a Prem club for a huge wage increase,

If players were handing in transfer requests ( none other than Kodjia) or refusing to train or preferring a club of equal or lesser standing than BCFC then there's a problem.

So as a club we've just sold c,£400k cost of 2 players for c £17 million. Pretty cool.

We've replaced a 28 yr old defender with a £5 million 24 yr old and are trying to get a £6million 23 yr old striker.

what does that say? Work hard- do well and you can progress in our club and if you want to leave and we make a zonking profit then we'll replace you .

And let's face it Bob, however shite our new recruits have been in the last season- no one we sold ( or loans ended) has has been missed. We've bought in Watkins who may be an improvement and an Ipswich Town defender whose own club's fans will question why he chose such an inferior club in preference to them. ( are you getting this @Olé?)

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1 hour ago, mikep said:

I am concerned that by selling two of our best known names it may reduce our stock in the eyes of players who might have wanted to join us. They may decide that we don't have the desire to get to the Premier League and look at other teams who may give them better chances.

Or they might be even keener to join us 

Seeing us as a great stepping stone to the "BIG" time

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6 hours ago, SecretSam said:

We are a selling club.  Such is life.

So are 99.99% of clubs

6 hours ago, SecretSam said:

We are a selling club.  Such is life.

So are 99.99% of clubs

6 hours ago, SecretSam said:

We are a selling club.  Such is life.

So are 99.99% of clubs

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6 hours ago, Olé said:

As a matter of clarification I wasn't a) disputing we're a selling club or b) debating when we need to make a new contract offer.

But if I'm Diedhiou, Brownhill (insert player you rate here - even Lloyd Kelly) I'm now looking forward to my opportunity to leave.

My question is how we get good players believing in a long term future with us as this week will influence the squad's thinking.

Saying no to an offer at the next opportunity (reminding them that we do actually want to keep good players) would be a start.

I think we are still developing our ability to say no.  We’ve been back in the Champ 3 seasons.

We aren’t losing players to mid-table / lower division  rivals, we are losing them to Champ Big-Boys, Premier League clubs (albeit recently promoted) and Champions League clubs.

The next stage of our development is to turn down offers from clubs in our division, we are a long way from fending off bids from Prem clubs.  We’ve bought a young player who is highly rated from our most closely comparable club financially - Ipswich, who have a much better history than us too.  That is a start.

6 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

Did we not keep some/all the players in question last summer & January..? Possibly/probably with the agreement that not getting promotion last season would leave us allowing them to leave at an agreeable price..?

I really think LJ had to fight really hard to keep them in the winter and then MA had a big influence in bringing in Kent and Diony.

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23 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

i'm pretty much 'meh' about losing any player particularly when they go to a bigger club or a Prem club for a huge wage increase,

If players were handing in transfer requests ( none other than Kodjia) or refusing to train or preferring a club of equal or lesser standing than BCFC then there's a problem.

So as a club we've just sold c,£400k cost of 2 players for c £17 million. Pretty cool.

We've replaced a 28 yr old defender with a £5 million 24 yr old and are trying to get a £6million 23 yr old striker.

what does that say? Work hard- do well and you can progress in our club and if you want to leave and we make a zonking profit then we'll replace you .

And let's face it Bob, however shite our new recruits have been in the last season- no one we sold ( or loans ended) has has been missed. We've bought in Watkins who may be an improvement and an Ipswich Town defender whose own club's fans will question why he chose such an inferior club in preference to them. ( are you getting this @Olé?)

I think you over complicate or misinterpreted my point MRR ;)

Might not have explained it well but was highlighting the irony , as such , that Flint and Reid were IMHO two players who continued to perform pretty well and with obvious commitment during the post Christmas slump so posters suggesting their heads had been turned , Maybe they had , Maybe not but they ironically IMHO showed no sign , that they , of all of them that they weren’t focused or committed - the ones that are still here have more to answer for in that respect (IMHO) !!!

Edited by BobBobSuperBob

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18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think we are still developing our ability to say no.  We’ve been back in the Champ 3 seasons.

We aren’t losing players to mid-table / lower division  rivals, we are losing them to Champ Big-Boys, Premier League clubs (albeit recently promoted) and Champions League clubs.

The next stage of our development is to turn down offers from clubs in our division, we are a long way from fending off bids from Prem clubs.  We’ve bought a young player who is highly rated from our most closely comparable club financially - Ipswich, who have a much better history than us too.  That is a start.

I really think LJ had to fight really hard to keep them in the winter and then MA had a big influence in bringing in Kent and Diony.

 

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That kind of seems like a back handed compliment. 

The sooner people understand that “suits” (I hate that term) are where they are, because money is their business, rather than the blinding loyalty & emotion that’s fans have, the better. 

I will miss Flint, yes. Bobby wanted to leave. 

Overall, a good start to summer business. 

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37 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I think you over complicate or misinterpreted my point MRR ;)

Might not have explained it well but was highlighting the irony , as such , that Flint and Reid were IMHO two players who continued to perform pretty well and with obvious commitment during the post Christmas slump so posters suggesting their heads had been turned , Maybe they had , Maybe not but they ironically IMHO showed no sign , that they , of all of them that they weren’t focused or committed - the ones that are still here have more to answer for in that respect (IMHO) !!!

Agree Bob, those 2, possibly Pack were the players whose standards dropped less than the rest.

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Agree Bob, those 2, possibly Pack were the players whose standards dropped less than the rest.

And Korey in terms of commitment (IMHO)even if not playing at his best or in best form

 

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8 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I think you over complicate or misinterpreted my point MRR ;)

Might not have explained it well but was highlighting the irony , as such , that Flint and Reid were IMHO two players who continued to perform pretty well and with obvious commitment during the post Christmas slump so posters suggesting their heads had been turned , Maybe they had , Maybe not but they ironically IMHO showed no sign , that they , of all of them that they weren’t focused or committed - the ones that are still here have more to answer for in that respect (IMHO) !!!

Yes- I see what you mean. I think you're right. My point was more about not being bothered about who leaves .

I do agree that Flinty and certainly Bobby were somewhat more consistent in their application and showed no sign of surrendering the cause.

On a wider point and in respect of the OP, I'm not sure what more this club can do to ensure sustainability on the one hand whilst keeping all the players happy with their income bracket and/or level their playing at.

Whatever MacAnthony says to Posh fans- Marriot will leave because he wants to step up a level and Posh need the income. I think SL/JL have been brutally honest with fans in that if the deal's right we'll sell. If a new contract cannot be agreed- we'll sell because there's no other choice.

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15 hours ago, Olé said:

As a matter of clarification I wasn't a) disputing we're a selling club or b) debating when we need to make a new contract offer.

But if I'm Diedhiou, Brownhill (insert player you rate here - even Lloyd Kelly) I'm now looking forward to my opportunity to leave.

My question is how we get good players believing in a long term future with us as this week will influence the squad's thinking.

Saying no to an offer at the next opportunity (reminding them that we do actually want to keep good players) would be a start.

Think that we have to go top six or direct to pl. If we are a good team and the feeling  is we can go to pl. Mean that the vibes and the abilyti to reach pl have to be real sattled in the Club. Most players want a higher level, to do it with Bristol City must be the mainthing. Its a tricky one but I think you know what I mean. In a way its a way of moment 22. Understand that we have to sell Reid and Bryan. Last season we were on our way but we were not good enough second part. Cardiff, Brighton, Hudds, Bournemouth and other teams in simular situation as City has made it. Its difficault but it can be done.

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16 hours ago, Olé said:

As a matter of clarification I wasn't a) disputing we're a selling club or b) debating when we need to make a new contract offer.

But if I'm Diedhiou, Brownhill (insert player you rate here - even Lloyd Kelly) I'm now looking forward to my opportunity to leave.

My question is how we get good players believing in a long term future with us as this week will influence the squad's thinking.

Saying no to an offer at the next opportunity (reminding them that we do actually want to keep good players) would be a start.

I know what you are saying and I do agree. We have gone after players and been told a firm ‘no’, and I’ve watched to see if that player moves and often he doesn’t at least for another year. Perhaps by that time the player has run his contract down and the selling club is cornered into a sell because it’s that money or nothing. Of course you could always be left with sulky players or mysterious injuries etc. I think the club should know the personality of the player, no way was Flint going to sulk for example.

I think the thing that has got to many of us regarding the sell of  Flint and Reid is the fact they have been here for so long, Bobby was our longest serving player by some distance (ok, relatively short career as a first team regular), but has been with the club since he was 7 years old I think. Flint has been here 5 years. Compare that to Kodjia who went after only one year and even Magnusson who wasnt a regular, and the reaction has been very different. 

It is a shame we couldn’t have kept them, but it seems what we dream about for Bristol City wasn’t their dream. They saw a way or getting it quicker ( Bobby) or in the hands of another manager, with different team mates and no doubt more money (Flint). 

Maybe players like them leaving will be a kick up the backside to the board. I know it was on the cards for a long time, but even after the last game SL was telling people Bobby was still under contract ( which of course he was). I knew after Brentford that he had no intention of staying and made it clear to his team mates. 

It’s done now, and we go again as LJ would say.

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12 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

The sooner people understand that “suits” (I hate that term) are where they are, because money is their business

But they're not. I'm digging up one of my arguments from about a year ago, but a business man who understood money would recognise that £5m on a proven asset that will retain its value is a far more economical and sensible use of money than £2-3m on an unproven player that may fail completely.

Our "suits" are not money men because they have kept trying to be clever and do the latter - and we have a number of costly failures to show for it. This summer is the first time they've taken the alternative approach of buying proven English assets who should barring injury hold or improve their value.

Obviously the catch is that more expensive players may be out of our wage bracket, but we appear to have bought and also be chasing some credible options who tick all boxes. Why didn't we before? False economy is probably my #1 cliché on OTIB but that's what Mark Ashton had been betting on.

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14 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Reid had to go. Magnússon poor so had to go too. And flint not really a ball playing type, so replaced him with the player that suits Johnson. So all ok so far imo. Hopefully we'd say no with our best players under contract of over a year, but then every player you say yes if the price is right. 

100% agree, Maggers was just not up to it, Bobby we all knew was off, as was Flint, it was getting stale, we need new blood, exciting times ahead,.

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4 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

On a wider point and in respect of the OP, I'm not sure what more this club can do to ensure sustainability on the one hand whilst keeping all the players happy with their income bracket and/or level their playing at.

Thank you - I wish I'd just posted that. That is my question. Sustainability is covered by selling, how do we address the other side of it where players we're not selling, get itchy feet because others have been? We can be a selling club without a culture of letting everyone go, which is simply reductive.

I've run companies where if one person leaves, you work extra hard to keep the next one who wants to leave, because the optics of multiple people leaving (green grass and all that) are bad for overall morale, bad for continuity, and bad for growth. It tends to encourage others to look elsewhere too.

By "work extra hard to keep the next one" I mean with the same sort of constraints - i.e. we can only pay x or you're only worth y. There are other tactics, like a bonus for being here in a year, or a promotion, or other recognition. Anything to not let players start thinking leaving is the only ticket in town.

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13 hours ago, mikep said:

I am concerned that by selling two of our best known names it may reduce our stock in the eyes of players who might have wanted to join us. They may decide that we don't have the desire to get to the Premier League and look at other teams who may give them better chances.

I don't think it will make the slightest bit of difference to future recruits. Clubs always sell their best players and reinvest in other best players.

Our status hasn't  changed much as regards potential Prem football and any player coming here is aware of where we are and where we have or haven't been .

They will judge solely on the package proposed to them .

 

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11 minutes ago, Olé said:

Thank you - I wish I'd just posted that. That is my question. Sustainability is covered by selling, how do we address the other side of it where players we're not selling, get itchy feet because others have been? We can be a selling club without a culture of letting everyone go, which is simply reductive.

I've run companies where if one person leaves, you work extra hard to keep the next one who wants to leave, because the optics of multiple people leaving (green grass and all that) are bad for overall morale, bad for continuity, and bad for growth. It tends to encourage others to look elsewhere too.

By "work extra hard to keep the next one" I mean with the same sort of constraints - i.e. we can only pay x or you're only worth y. There are other tactics, like a bonus for being here in a year, or a promotion, or other recognition. Anything to not let players start thinking leaving is the only ticket in town.

 Out of interest if Flint and Reid left in days not so close enough do you think you would feel the same ?  Might of it been a easier pill to swallow if we had signed their replacements knowing who they were before they went? Flint appeared to want to move on from last season and Reid didnt sign a new contract so made his intentions clear...no one could of known Reid would have such a good season.

If we get offers for players Like O'Dowda , Pack, Brownhill would you like the club to make this known to the public knowledge that we rejected their offers?

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2 hours ago, Olé said:

But they're not. I'm digging up one of my arguments from about a year ago, but a business man who understood money would recognise that £5m on a proven asset that will retain its value is a far more economical and sensible use of money than £2-3m on an unproven player that may fail completely.

Our "suits" are not money men because they have kept trying to be clever and do the latter - and we have a number of costly failures to show for it. This summer is the first time they've taken the alternative approach of buying proven English assets who should barring injury hold or improve their value.

Obviously the catch is that more expensive players may be out of our wage bracket, but we appear to have bought and also be chasing some credible options who tick all boxes. Why didn't we before? False economy is probably my #1 cliché on OTIB but that's what Mark Ashton had been betting on.

Which have been costly failures..?

Only really Engval. Loans aside. 

The profit on Mags has covered the loss on Engval. 

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4 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Which have been costly failures..?

Only really Engval. Loans aside. 

The profit on Mags has covered the loss on Engval. 

You think so ?

:laughcont:

Putting it another way

It actually appears all the ‘profit’ some celebrated from Flint will be eaten up by the loss, agents fees and wages spent on Engvall

Edited by BobBobSuperBob

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6 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Which have been costly failures..?

Only really Engval. Loans aside. 

The profit on Mags has covered the loss on Engval. 

What profit?

Taking in to account wages we've definitely not made a profit.

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31 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

What profit?

Taking in to account wages we've definitely not made a profit.

Transfer fee profit, obviously. 

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9 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Transfer fee profit, obviously. 

Overall we've lost money on him, is the point.

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31 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Amortised it's a profit on Mags.

1. Correct, probably around £1.4m if we assume he was on £8k pw 

51 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Transfer fee profit, obviously. 

2. Correct....but a very small net spend profit (certainly not covering Engvall’s outlay) €2.5m in versus £2.0m out.

41 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Overall we've lost money on him, is the point.

3. Correct, we’ve paid out more to Juventus and Hörður than we’ve received from CSKA.

1. Looks great on the P&L and helps FFP.

2. Looks ok in the newspaper when they do net spend.

3. Summarises both, and ultimately we go bust as our wage bill > turnover and we have no money left!!

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55 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Overall we've lost money on him, is the point.

Only if he was on more that £16k per week. 

He may have been, I don’t know. 

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6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

1. Correct, probably around £1.4m if we assume he was on £8k pw 

2. Correct....but a very small net spend profit (certainly not covering Engvall’s outlay) €2.5m in versus £2.0m out.

3. Correct, we’ve paid out more to Juventus and Hörður than we’ve received from CSKA.

1. Looks great on the P&L and helps FFP.

2. Looks ok in the newspaper when they do net spend.

3. Summarises both, and ultimately we go bust as our wage bill > turnover and we have no money left!!

Mags was signed for £1.6million and sold for £3.3million. 

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1 minute ago, Bar BS3 said:

Only if he was on more that £16k per week. 

He may have been, I don’t know. 

Eh?

We paid £2m for Mags, we sold him for €2.5m (£2.2m)....so we’ve made £300k in two years.  How much do you think his wages are.  To have broken even he’d have had to be on £3k pw (£150k per annum x 2).   It very likely imho.

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1 minute ago, Bar BS3 said:

Mags was signed for £1.6million and sold for £3.3million. 

Where the £3.3m reported?  Would be much happier if that wa the fee, but consensus of reporting was €2.5m.

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Eh?

We paid £2m for Mags, we sold him for €2.5m (£2.2m)....so we’ve made £300k in two years.  How much do you think his wages are.  To have broken even he’d have had to be on £3k pw (£150k per annum x 2).   It very likely imho.

Our eventual outlay on Mags was £1.6m and we’ve just banked £3.3m 

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Just now, Bar BS3 said:

Our eventual outlay on Mags was £1.6m and we’ve just banked £3.3m 

What do you mean by eventual outlay....are you saying instalments to Juventus are just ignored from this point?

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Where the £3.3m reported?  Would be much happier if that wa the fee, but consensus of reporting was €2.5m.

Let’s just say that those figures are from the horses mouth, of someone directly involved in the transfer, who would know exactly what the actual figures were. 

Just now, Davefevs said:

What do you mean by eventual outlay....are you saying instalments to Juventus are just ignored from this point?

Yes, the amount we’ve actually paid out, with no more add ons to pay to Juventus. 

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2 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Let’s just say that those figures are from the horses mouth, of someone directly involved in the transfer, who would know exactly what the actual figures were. 

Yes, the amount we’ve actually paid out, with no more add ons to pay to Juventus. 

Add-ons or instalments?

Are you saying that the fee to Juventus was £1.6m plus some performance add-ons making it £2m.  He’s not achieved the performances add-ons so just £1.6m?  The fact that we are laying the £1.6m in instalment is of course irrelevant to when he gets sold.

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Add-ons or instalments?

Are you saying that the fee to Juventus was £1.6m plus some performance add-ons making it £2m.  He’s not achieved the performances add-ons so just £1.6m?  The fact that we are laying the £1.6m in instalment is of course irrelevant to when he gets sold.

That’s right. 

The total amount due to Juventus came to £1.6m. No idea if it was installements or not. 

The amount he’s been sold for is £3.3m

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Just now, Bar BS3 said:

That’s right. 

The total amount due to Juventus came to £1.6m. No idea if it was installements or not. 

The amount he’s been sold for is £3.3m

Ok, Transfermarkt has £1.89m (it recoverts the amount based on the Euro Rate), So i’m Gonna adjust my spreadsheet to £1.8m initially!!! :laughcont:

As I said above I’d be much happier if I thought Mags had gone for £3.3m....€2.5m was hardly a cause to jump for joy about a player whose played over 50 games in the Champ and established himself as the first choice Iceland full-back...and gone to a CL club!

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Ok, Transfermarkt has £1.89m (it recoverts the amount based on the Euro Rate), So i’m Gonna adjust my spreadsheet to £1.8m initially!!! :laughcont:

As I said above I’d be much happier if I thought Mags had gone for £3.3m....€2.5m was hardly a cause to jump for joy about a player whose played over 50 games in the Champ and established himself as the first choice Iceland full-back...and gone to a CL club!

You can use the figures on Transfer market if you like, but the ones I’ve given you are from a source that’s as officially accurate as you could possibly get. 

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7 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

You can use the figures on Transfer market if you like, but the ones I’ve given you are from a source that’s as officially accurate as you could possibly get. 

Maybei will  :laughcont:

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Mags was my son's favourite player.  If it wasn't for Mags, Sasha might not have been dragged me into buying season tickets, shirts, cider etc.

Also he did play some decent football in the League Cup run so you can't say his wages were wasted.  Sash was certainly relieved when he came on v. Sheffield United as we seemed to have no defence before that.

He was paid for being available for doing defending. 

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On 28/06/2018 at 16:39, David Brent said:

If I’m Diedhiou, Baker or any other LJ signing, I’m thinking why are we selling our best players...this isn’t what I signed up for.

They might be thinking “ why didn’t the boss sign Webster last year, he’s far better than Flint. And Marriott is decent to, I’ll look forward to playing with him”.

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17 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

And Korey in terms of commitment (IMHO)even if not playing at his best or in best form

 

His drop in form was alarming. 

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