Old Guard - New Guard

[Davefevs]

Just posing a question / thought.

Lots of us on here still talk fondly of the 14/15 side, Cotts, etc, and refer regularly to things like “only x y and z left from the 14/15 team”, “Johnson is making sure all of Cotts’s team are gone” etc.

All potentially valid.

We have seen a good few players struggle to integrate into a close knit group.

Are we about to see that change?

I don’t buy "Pack is leaving because Flint has left”, but could their closeness off the pitch (Frankie quite close to them too) have stifled that integration at the training ground?

Is that starting to be diluted, so actually the old guard are now the minority and there are now more new guard open to new ideas?

I don’t know, just liked the way Weimann spoke in his interview and made me think.

Could the transition from old guard to new guard actually be the right guard 

[where's the joy]

for not too big an outlay reid and kodjia were sold for significant money.

if we keep selling and investing well then we can build a sustainable club like southampton have. old cliques and new cliques won't matter as the club will keep churning. But someone has to be accountable for the hopeless punts like Engvall and Taylor Moore where we have or are likely to lose money.

personally i don't believe in the slow build up to the first team. we should chuck more in early and take care of them. Gow was 17 when he made his breakthrough

[richwwtk]

I think you have a very valid point.

Despite the fact that it is in reality only 2-3 players, it feels like a much more monumental shift in the squad than that. The dawn of a new era almost.

[Nomad]

For me the squad became quite bloated (esp after the Jan window) so integration could have been a major issue, not because of any clique but just sheer numbers - you can't be mates with everyone.

[BTRFTG]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We have seen a good few players struggle to integrate into a close knit group

Maybe you've evidence for that off the pitch, but then all clubs have cliques and not all players want tattoos and Vegas. You've a solid point however in it was clear that some players couldn't integrate on the pitch. The worrying part being was that down to personality or the way in which they were being deployed - The Athletico Mince ' Don't pass to Vardy' syndrome?

[EmissionImpossible]

8 minutes ago, where's the joy said:

for not too big an outlay reid and kodjia were sold for significant money.

if we keep selling and investing well then we can build a sustainable club like southampton have. old cliques and new cliques won't matter as the club will keep churning. But someone has to be accountable for the hopeless punts like Engvall and Taylor Moore where we have or are likely to lose money.

personally i don't believe in the slow build up to the first team. we should chuck more in early and take care of them. Gow was 17 when he made his breakthrough

Gow was obviously special, the slow build up to the first team being at the level we are is 100% correct. Too many times youngsters get thrust into first team action  through flashes of talent having only played reserve team football. Academy-Reserves-Loan and back to us is how it should work.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Maybe you've evidence for that off the pitch, but then all clubs have cliques and not all players want tattoos and Vegas. You've a solid point however in it was clear that some players couldn't integrate on the pitch. The worrying part being was that down to personality or the way in which they were being deployed - The Athletico Mince ' Don't pass to Vardy' syndrome?

Yeah, said in the cliques post that not everyone wants to socialise with everyone else both at training and outside of ‘work’.  Certain people you naturally gravitate to and others you don’t.

 

[Red Army 75]

27 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just posing a question / thought.

Lots of us on here still talk fondly of the 14/15 side, Cotts, etc, and refer regularly to things like “only x y and z left from the 14/15 team”, “Johnson is making sure all of Cotts’s team are gone” etc.

All potentially valid.

We have seen a good few players struggle to integrate into a close knit group.

Are we about to see that change?

I don’t buy "Pack is leaving because Flint has left”, but could their closeness off the pitch (Frankie quite close to them too) have stifled that integration at the training ground?

Is that starting to be diluted, so actually the old guard are now the minority and there are now more new guard open to new ideas?

I don’t know, just liked the way Weimann spoke in his interview and made me think.

Could the transition from old guard to new guard actually be the right guard 

Hands up . If you know. 

[cidered abroad]

21 minutes ago, where's the joy said:

for not too big an outlay reid and kodjia were sold for significant money.

if we keep selling and investing well then we can build a sustainable club like southampton have. old cliques and new cliques won't matter as the club will keep churning. But someone has to be accountable for the hopeless punts like Engvall and Taylor Moore where we have or are likely to lose money.

personally i don't believe in the slow build up to the first team. we should chuck more in early and take care of them. Gow was 17 when he made his breakthrough

Unfair to dismiss Taylor Moore as he's still a youngster. And all your players develop at a different rate. 

Those like Gow, Jantzen Derrick and Geoff Merrick are rarities and also a long time ago. We've seen proof last season with Bobby Reid that many will take a year or three longer to mature. 

[BRISTOL86]

I'm looking forward to seeing what a change in the team does.

IMO the break up of the status quo can be a good thing in all walks of life. People get too comfortable, too familiar, and complacency/laziness/routine sets in. Not aiming that at anyone who is/has headed out but it's human nature for people to get into a comfort zone by familiarity.

One noticeable part of the recruitment thus far has been that all of the incoming players have been described as real hard workers. Every other comment to Weimann's farewell tweet to Derby fans was about how he gave 100% every minute he was on the pitch. IMO that can only be a good thing.

I've said it before but a team of Bobby Reids beats a team of Lee Tomlins every day of the week. 

Not dwelling on the outgoings, already looking forward to the season ahead. 4 new signings and it's only early July - the squad is taking shape and hopefully a few more to come.

[Phileas Fogg]

I think too much is made of it personally. The season we signed the likes of Smith, Freeman, Ayling etc was now 4 summers ago. 

Flint, Pack and Fielding arrived the summer before that. 

I don’t think the turnover of players is particularly unusual, especially considering we got relegated in 2013 (always would be a clearout summer window) and promoted in 2015 (strengthening window). Seems a pretty normal turnover of players to me.

I don’t really buy the conspiracy that LJ wanted them gone either, otherwise none of them would be here. It’s not as they wouldn’t have had options.

[Robbored]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

We have seen a good few players struggle to integrate into a close knit group.

Are we about to see that change?

I don’t buy "Pack is leaving because Flint has left”, but could their closeness off the pitch (Frankie quite close to them too) have stifled that integration at the training ground?

Is that starting to be diluted, so actually the old guard are now the minority and there are now more new guard open to new ideas?

I don’t know, just liked the way Weimann spoke in his interview and made me think.

Could the transition from old guard to new guard actually be the right guard 

No doubt the squad needed a shake up. City were certainly looking stale towards the end of last season.

Its come about naturally with Hordour, Flint and BR moving on and LJ has been able to spend on four new players so far so by that alone the structure of the group will automatically change. 

Bailey Wright as captain will have the job of helping the news guys settle in and encourage as much interacting as possible between all of them and to ensure that the natural changes are healthy changes. These natural processes start up at Failand.

All of the new signings have experience of other squads and most of them will have experienced being the new guy before and may well be drawn to each other thereby creating a new clique and where BW can help use his considerable experience to help the new guys integrate.

Last season it was too difficult for Kent to integrate but that was down largely to him rather than the 'cliques' that existed.

As I posted on another thread - cliques are a part of everyday life. Work, social life, all types of teams and sports clubs.

[downendcity]

22 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I've said it before but a team of Bobby Reids beats a team of Lee Tomlins every day of the week. 

Other than in a burger eating competition.

[BS4 on Tour...]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Just posing a question / thought.

Lots of us on here still talk fondly of the 14/15 side, Cotts, etc, and refer regularly to things like “only x y and z left from the 14/15 team”, “Johnson is making sure all of Cotts’s team are gone” etc.

All potentially valid.

We have seen a good few players struggle to integrate into a close knit group.

Are we about to see that change?

I don’t buy "Pack is leaving because Flint has left”, but could their closeness off the pitch (Frankie quite close to them too) have stifled that integration at the training ground?

Is that starting to be diluted, so actually the old guard are now the minority and there are now more new guard open to new ideas?

I don’t know, just liked the way Weimann spoke in his interview and made me think.

Could the transition from old guard to new guard actually be the right guard 

I’m gutted you pulled the ‘right guard’ phrase....I was gonna come up with a top jibe using that wording! Aside from that I totally agree with you. When a set of players are obviously close and enjoy significant success I sometimes think when their time is done it would be better if they all left at the same time so we can start again with no hangover or hankering back to their successful period....obviously that isn’t practical but when key players from a top side move on (Ayling, Freeman, Wilbs, Little, JET, Williams, Flint etc) then the ones left behind can’t feel too great....just human nature I suppose...

[Ivorguy]

LJ said something like the need to be committed for some players, if I remember rightly, mid season.

[INCRED]

2 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I'm looking forward to seeing what a change in the team does.

IMO the break up of the status quo can be a good thing in all walks of life. People get too comfortable, too familiar, and complacency/laziness/routine sets in. Not aiming that at anyone who is/has headed out but it's human nature for people to get into a comfort zone by familiarity.

One noticeable part of the recruitment thus far has been that all of the incoming players have been described as real hard workers. Every other comment to Weimann's farewell tweet to Derby fans was about how he gave 100% every minute he was on the pitch. IMO that can only be a good thing.

I've said it before but a team of Bobby Reids beats a team of Lee Tomlins every day of the week. 

Not dwelling on the outgoings, already looking forward to the season ahead. 4 new signings and it's only early July - the squad is taking shape and hopefully a few more to come.

Most good teams trying and out work/run their opponents and overwhelm them by sheer pressure and usually control possession and on most occasions end up winning far more than they lose

LJ has this philosophy quite clearly and we have seen it work in spells. The next step is to sustain it over a season by bringing those players that are physically capable to carry out these tactics

There shouldn’t be a need for a plan B, just fresh legs and the odd tweaking of formation 

[JustinCider]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Just posing a question / thought.

Lots of us on here still talk fondly of the 14/15 side, Cotts, etc, and refer regularly to things like “only x y and z left from the 14/15 team”, “Johnson is making sure all of Cotts’s team are gone” etc.

All potentially valid.

We have seen a good few players struggle to integrate into a close knit group.

Are we about to see that change?

I don’t buy "Pack is leaving because Flint has left”, but could their closeness off the pitch (Frankie quite close to them too) have stifled that integration at the training ground?

Is that starting to be diluted, so actually the old guard are now the minority and there are now more new guard open to new ideas?

I don’t know, just liked the way Weimann spoke in his interview and made me think.

Could the transition from old guard to new guard actually be the right guard 

Sure

[Lrrr]

Mixed feeling, on one hand it was great bonding between the guys so great team spirit but as said how easy was it for new guys who weren't part of that group to integrate? Seems Pato only really has so far socially outside club times.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, JustinCider said:

Sure

Wonder if Wilbs was “old spice”

[Bar BS3]

5 hours ago, where's the joy said:

for not too big an outlay reid and kodjia were sold for significant money.

if we keep selling and investing well then we can build a sustainable club like southampton have. old cliques and new cliques won't matter as the club will keep churning. But someone has to be accountable for the hopeless punts like Engvall and Taylor Moore where we have or are likely to lose money.

personally i don't believe in the slow build up to the first team. we should chuck more in early and take care of them. Gow was 17 when he made his breakthrough

Comparing the 1970’s logic to today’s is pretty much exactly where we’ve been going wrong!

There is no loyalty in football, naturally, the money is too big (above league 1)

SL told us that 2 years ago. It people’s own fault if they can’t deal with change and want to idolise people who are just waiting for the opportunity of a pay rise. 

[Renaissance Williams]

4 hours ago, JustinCider said:

Sure

Roll on the new season, say I........

[Major Isewater]

5 hours ago, Renaissance Williams said:

Roll on the new season, say I........

Lynx ? 

[Monkeh]

3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Lynx ? 

Brute?

[1960maaan]

14 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Brute?

Brut or brute ?

[Major Isewater]

1 minute ago, 1960maaan said:

Brut or brute ?

Every bloke smelt of Brut 33 in the 70's . The girls was ' Blasé ' .

I should add that the Great smell of Brut was often accompanied by the ' Great smell of Player's No6 and Watney's Red Barrel ' 

 

[1960maaan]

3 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Every bloke smelt of Brut 33 in the 70's . The girls was ' Blasé ' .

I should add that the Great smell of Brut was often accompanied by the ' Great smell of Player's No6 and Watney's Red Barrel ' 

 

Guilty of Brut, but never smoked and was drinking light splits about then