Minimum wage (Merged)

[Bristol Rob]

Just heard on the wireless that City were one of the club's that failed to comply with minimum wage requirements.

 

[Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan]

Just now, Bristol Rob said:

Just heard on the wireless that City were one of the club's that failed to comply with minimum wage requirements.

 

Yep, just read about this.

Disgusting.

[Maesknoll Red]

We’re not alone.....

1. Bristol Rovers Football Club Limited trading as Bristol Rovers F.C., Bristol, BS7 failed to pay £1,651.86 to 52 workers.
2. Wolverhampton Wanderers Football Club (1986) Limited trading as Wolverhampton Wanderers F.C., Wolverhampton WV1, failed to pay £450.79 to 17 workers.

The above are from an older list,

 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/17m-back-pay-identified-for-a-record-16000-workers-as-260-employers-are-named-and-shamed-for-underpaying-minimum-wage-rates

here is the latest one in full

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/722813/NMW_Naming_Round_15.xlsx

and a post article explaining it.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/bristol-city-admits-paid-youth-1401239

[Phileas Fogg]

Makes it worse when you consider how much we’ve been prepared to pay certain players who’ve performed poorly. Hope we sort this out and put it right ASAP.

[Bristol Rob]

I've asked before why they don't pay the living wage. Never got a satisfactory answer.

I don't imagine given what gets shelled out to players a few quid an hour extra to those most in need would make much of a difference.

[Super]

Christ that is bad.

[Port Said Red]

I doubt this is due to a deliberate policy, I work at a company training on Payroll software. The rules and calculations around NMW are so complicated that we hand the details of this over to the Application Consultants and Software Developers and they build it for the customers each time. 

 

Just to add, looking at the period that this is calculated over, the changes to our software were not brought in until 2016 and were not a legislative requirement until April 2017. I don't know what software BCFC use but I would imagine it was the same for them, therefore all the calculations done up to that point were probably performed manually. 
City are clearly not alone in being caught out by the changes in legislation.

[Guest]

Just now, Port Said Red said:

I doubt this is due to a deliberate policy, I work at a company training on Payroll software. The rules and calculations around NMW are so complicated that we hand the details of this over to the Application Consultants and Software Developers and they build it for the customers each time. 

Exactly this, and when you factor in differences in distances for commutes for games, press commitments, community commitments, it's actually very, very easy to get this wrong and very, very hard to adequately monitor. It sounds like exploitation, in reality it's nothing of the sort but genuine failure to administer something very difficult to administer. 

[Port Said Red]

9 minutes ago, 29AR said:

Exactly this, and when you factor in differences in distances for commutes for games, press commitments, community commitments, it's actually very, very easy to get this wrong and very, very hard to adequately monitor. It sounds like exploitation, in reality it's nothing of the sort but genuine failure to administer something very difficult to administer. 

The article in the Post is actually very fair and balanced I think. City admit being caught on a technicality around travel time, it was found on review and they have reimbursed those affected, I think some may have jumped the gun in their condemnation here.

[Sydneybcfc]

From the EP article it actually sounds like we paid them more than the minimum wage overall, its just some months we were short of it other months over it.

Not going to say that's ideal but lets not turn a molehill into a mountain.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I doubt this is due to a deliberate policy, I work at a company training on Payroll software. The rules and calculations around NMW are so complicated that we hand the details of this over to the Application Consultants and Software Developers and they build it for the customers each time. 

 

Just to add, looking at the period that this is calculated over, the changes to our software were not brought in until 2016 and were not a legislative requirement until April 2017. I don't know what software BCFC use but I would imagine it was the same for them, therefore all the calculations done up to that point were probably performed manually. 
City are clearly not alone in being caught out by the changes in legislation.

I'd imagine they use a vairent of Sage Payroll now given how they use Sage Business Cloud and are sponsored/promoted by sage somewhat. Then again there was that spreadsheet of wages in excel that leaked a few years ago 

[Bristol Rob]

4 minutes ago, Sydneybcfc said:

From the EP article it actually sounds like we paid them more than the minimum wage overall, its just some months we were short of it other months over it.

Not going to say that's ideal but lets not turn a molehill into a mountain.

Quite agree there is no need to use this as a stick with which to beat the club, it's more of an observation about the disparity between those who arrive on a match day in a Bentley and those who fall below the minimum wage threshold.

 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

City are clearly not alone in being caught out by the changes in legislation.

Indeed, and even when it was the Gas you and I quickly acknowledged how easy it is to mess up - no favouritism here haha.

 

 

[EnderMB]

It's easy to tar clubs with the same brush, and assume that they're trying to cheat people out of their money, but I think changes in legislation have caught many people out this year. Last year, my old company messed my pay up a handful of times AND forgot to pay my pension for the entire year. Thankfully, the various ombudsman's had caught both offences, and even though it was a valid error my company had to pay out immediately or face fines. This isn't an isolated incident, and employers all over the country are slipping up.

The only criticism I have is that the club should be paying more than minimum wage to both club staff and academy players. At the very least bump it up to the living wage!

[Port Said Red]

3 minutes ago, 29AR said:

Indeed, and even when it was the Gas you and I quickly acknowledged how easy it is to mess up - no favouritism here haha.

 

 

Wow!  Thanks, I was sitting here hoping that I had been consistent in my approach as I couldn't remember what I posted when the same story arose last year for the Gas.  I am feeling rather good about myself now, thanks for doing the digging , and give yourself a pat on the back too.  

[Port Said Red]

14 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Quite agree there is no need to use this as a stick with which to beat the club, it's more of an observation about the disparity between those who arrive on a match day in a Bentley and those who fall below the minimum wage threshold.

 

So a dig at capitalism as a whole then?  

[Bristol Rob]

4 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

So a dig at capitalism as a whole then?  

 

[downendcity]

33 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I think some may have jumped the gun in their condemnation here.

On OTIB - surely not?    

The only surprise is that no one (so far )  has blamed LJ or MA for this.

[Rudolf Hucker]

8 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

 

Fulham supporters all look like this. It's true.

[phantom]

https://news.sky.com/story/employers-failing-to-pay-the-minimum-wage-named-and-shamed-11427715

[One hair on my chin]

1. Bristol City Football Club Limited, trading as Bristol City F.C., Bristol BS3, failed to pay £14,342.73 to 50 workers, with average arrears of £286.85 per worker.

[Red-Robbo]

3 hours ago, 29AR said:

Exactly this, and when you factor in differences in distances for commutes for games, press commitments, community commitments, it's actually very, very easy to get this wrong and very, very hard to adequately monitor. It sounds like exploitation, in reality it's nothing of the sort but genuine failure to administer something very difficult to administer. 

It isn't hard to get wrong if you pay people decent wages. If you hover around the minimum you can get away with then ask people to travel and do club tasks in their own time, you will fall foul of the rules.

When you think how much Mark Ashton et al pay themselves, it's a ****ing liberty that they ask some folk to work for the club for peanuts.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

It isn't hard to get wrong if you pay people decent wages. If you hover around the minimum you can get away with then ask people to travel and do club tasks in their own time, you will fall foul of the rules.

When you think how much Mark Ashton et al pay themselves, it's a ****ing liberty that they ask some folk to work for the club for peanuts. 

It's not a charity, that is the legal requirement to pay someone for services performed, and I've seen plenty of people down there deserving not even that!

And if we are talking about youth footballers it's not like they don't get their education, facilities, meals, meal plans, pastoral care, equipment, physio, medical treatment (I could go on) chucked on top as well. They might cost min wage in salary, they don't cost minimum wage to the club though. The 'package' would actually be quite lucrative.

In any case it's a question of politics. I personally hate the concept of a minimum wage. I'm also not convinced it doesn't inhibit wage growth at that sort of level as it indicates an 'acceptable bargain', when in reality it isn't in 99% of cases; and in 99% of those it's too low. 

[Gilli74]

#MAKINGBRISTOLPROUD

[Red-Robbo]

31 minutes ago, 29AR said:

It's not a charity, that is the legal requirement to pay someone for services performed, and I've seen plenty of people down there deserving not even that!

And if we are talking about youth footballers it's not like they don't get their education, facilities, meals, meal plans, pastoral care, equipment, physio, medical treatment (I could go on) chucked on top as well. They might cost min wage in salary, they don't cost minimum wage to the club though. The 'package' would actually be quite lucrative.

In any case it's a question of politics. I personally hate the concept of a minimum wage. I'm also not convinced it doesn't inhibit wage growth at that sort of level as it indicates an 'acceptable bargain', when in reality it isn't in 99% of cases; and in 99% of those it's too low. 

We can certainly agree on that first point!

If it is indeed all about academy players (the government release doesn't make it clear) then yes, you may have a point. Although I'd say the £3.50 an hour apprentice wage which they'll be on shouldn't be too arduous for a club like City to meet. And it's fairly obvious that if you require someone to work a long way away from their normal base, then that travel-to-work time needs to be reimbursed.

As for your general point, I think MW helps workers where there is no collective bargaining, particularly younger workers. I'm in the happy position of being able to name my price. Many aren't.

[BRISTOL86]

4 hours ago, downendcity said:

On OTIB - surely not?    

The only surprise is that no one (so far )  has blamed LJ or MA for this.

Apparently Johnson takes the credit for those paid properly and Ashton gets the blame for those we’ve shafted. Or is it the other way round this week?

Christ, I’m so confused. 

[supercidered]

4 hours ago, downendcity said:

On OTIB - surely not?    

The only surprise is that no one (so far )  has blamed LJ or MA for this.

I blame LJ and MA for this

[Bristol Rob]

1 minute ago, supercidered said:

I blame LJ and MA for this

And it's a job for Cotts to sort out.

[Maesknoll Red]

I blame the youth players agents, poor job guys......

[Bristol Rob]

1 minute ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I blame the youth players agents, poor job guys......

The youth players probably received a free season ticket plus as part of their employment and whilst enjoying 15% off a bottle of warm Fanta, they were unaware they also have a 15% discount on their wages.