The French Way?

[RidgeRed]

Only one of the French starting X1 today, Mbappe, plays his club football in France. Of the whole squad only 8 others play in their home league. The French technical centre, Clairefontaine, opened in 1988. Since then, two World Cup wins & a Euro champ. What I see is a conveyor belt of talent being bought up by clubs outside of France which allows the next batch of stars to step up & replace those playing abroad.

To me this is the biggest problem facing England & our attempt to build on the reasonable showing in Russia. How do we get our promising players, who have won international trophies in recent years, into regular Prem football? There is a serious disconnect between the EPL & the national team. Glenn Hoddle, whom I know is Marmite to many, alluded to the lack of game time more than once. It was said, long ago, that we were creating a monster with the EPL. Hard to dispute, IMO. Will other youngsters follow Jadon Sancho who moved to Dortmund? Should "our" Tammy do the same?  Seems crazy but our home "elite" league & its narrow self-interest seems to be our biggest obstacle.  No, I'm not a fan of the EPL (laugh) though I hope City get there one day. However, I shall occasionally check on the Cardiff BlueReds to see how Young Bobby gets on. Maybe Joe as well? 

[Olé]

2 minutes ago, RidgeRed said:

How do we get our promising players, who have won international trophies in recent years, into regular Prem football?

I think it will now happen naturally. The first and most crucial step was for an England manager to pick players from Burnley and Leicester etc rather than simply picking the same players simply on overall club reputation. I haven't seen that before.

Now that has been established by Southgate, those players who are stuck behind foreign imports at the top clubs will want (and agitate) to go out on loan to other lesser Prem teams, and be considered for selection for England (i.e. Loftus-Cheek).

To be honest I didn't even know some of the England players at this tournament and as an outsider, to me it is a revelation in how England approach tournaments as I got so used to it being a virtual closed shop of selection from the top 4-5 teams.

Is it conceivable that the manager goes a step further and could ever select a Championship player - given the rising standard of the division and the potential that in a similar way, young English talent could be out on loan getting games there too? 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Having watched a shedload of French football, Mbappe will not fulfil his full potential if he stays in France and many of those 8 squad players will move to other European teams imo.

Payet and Ballotelli are proof that as so called world class players playing in France is just an easy option.

As for Englands conundrum, under 17's are current world champions and European semi finalists, under 19's are the current European champions, the under 21's are current European semi finalists, we clearly have the players.

 

[REDOXO]

16 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Having watched a shedload of French football, Mbappe will not fulfil his full potential if he stays in France and many of those 8 squad players will move to other European teams imo.

Payet and Ballotelli are proof that as so called world class players playing in France is just an easy option.

As for Englands conundrum, under 17's are current world champions and European semi finalists, under 19's are the current European champions, the under 21's are current European semi finalists, we clearly have the players.

 

Up to a point I agree. What we lack is one or maybe two individuals with a little bit of genius.

We have a good team but lack a Modric or a Gascoigne etc to change something and unlock a tight defence.

Hopefully the junior teams have that guy!

[BS4 on Tour...]

18 minutes ago, Olé said:

I think it will now happen naturally. The first and most crucial step was for an England manager to pick players from Burnley and Leicester etc rather than simply picking the same players simply on overall club reputation. I haven't seen that before.

Now that has been established by Southgate, those players who are stuck behind foreign imports at the top clubs will want (and agitate) to go out on loan to other lesser Prem teams, and be considered for selection for England (i.e. Loftus-Cheek).

To be honest I didn't even know some of the England players at this tournament and as an outsider, to me it is a revelation in how England approach tournaments as I got so used to it being a virtual closed shop of selection from the top 4-5 teams.

Is it conceivable that the manager goes a step further and could ever select a Championship player - given the rising standard of the division and the potential that in a similar way, young English talent could be out on loan getting games there too? 

Steve Bull played for England when he was a third division player....the door should never be shut to guys who are bang in form no matter what level.....and Bull was a machine for Wolves - scored over 50 goals in the 1987/88 season and also notched 18 hatricks for Wolves....including a few against us....I marvelled at his finishing when he splaffed three past us in the Sherpa Van trophy in 1989....then in 1990 Glenn Humphries ‘marked’ him like he’d never heard of him and Bull grabbed three in a 4-0 Wolves win....awesome player, loved his no nonense approach....

[downendcity]

58 minutes ago, RidgeRed said:

Only one of the French starting X1 today, Mbappe, plays his club football in France. Of the whole squad only 8 others play in their home league. The French technical centre, Clairefontaine, opened in 1988. Since then, two World Cup wins & a Euro champ. What I see is a conveyor belt of talent being bought up by clubs outside of France which allows the next batch of stars to step up & replace those playing abroad.

To me this is the biggest problem facing England & our attempt to build on the reasonable showing in Russia. How do we get our promising players, who have won international trophies in recent years, into regular Prem football? There is a serious disconnect between the EPL & the national team. Glenn Hoddle, whom I know is Marmite to many, alluded to the lack of game time more than once. It was said, long ago, that we were creating a monster with the EPL. Hard to dispute, IMO. Will other youngsters follow Jadon Sancho who moved to Dortmund? Should "our" Tammy do the same?  Seems crazy but our home "elite" league & its narrow self-interest seems to be our biggest obstacle.  No, I'm not a fan of the EPL (laugh) though I hope City get there one day. However, I shall occasionally check on the Cardiff BlueReds to see how Young Bobby gets on. Maybe Joe as well? 

This is impossible RR, as I distinctly remember in the run up to the formation of the premier league, that the great and good of the top clubs argued that one of the main reasons the premier league was needed was that it would benefit the England national team!  

[Padlad]

In 4 years time there will be the following post :

The (insert country who win world cup in 4 years time) way.

Every time someone wins a WC  everyone wants to copy the winner, tippy tappy was all the rage  4 years ago. before that the German way. If England wanna win we need to be ourselves, At least fans are back on side again. 

 

  to quote great film 

[downendcity]

I suggested we try the French way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mrs Downend said she could never manage it with her back!  
 

[1960maaan]

The foundations are there, the youth/junior teams have done well.....

2017 European Under-17 Championship ...... Result: Runner-up
2017 Toulon Tournament ............................... Result: Champions
2017 European Under-21 Championship .......Result: Semi-finalists
2017 Under-20 World Cup ...............................Result: Champions
2017 European Under-19 Championship .......Result: Champions
2017 Under-17 World Cup ...............................Result: Champions

The next step is to get all those youngster playing first team football regularly, the problem comes when top sides hoover up the young players and they vegetate in their reserve set ups with no path to the first team. I'm hoping Man City are going to buck that trend, Foden (MoM in U17 WC win) played 10 games last year . It would be great to see a few more come through. 
We have the base of a good-is side, now we need some more to step up and force their way in.

[handsofclay]

7 minutes ago, Padlad said:

In 4 years time there will be the following post :

The (insert country who win world cup in 4 years time) way.

Every time someone wins a WC  everyone wants to copy the winner, tippy tappy was all the rage  4 years ago. before that the German way. If England wanna win we need to be ourselves, At least fans are back on side again. 

 

  to quote great film 

It's interesting that Spain won the WC in 2010 employing tippy tappy and dominating the opposition with possession football. 8 years later we have a team, France, who win the WC by having far less possession than the opposition but really making what possession they have count. It clearly shows that football evolves and ways are found to combat what at the time might seem unbeatable. That's what makes football so great.

[RidgeRed]

3 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

It's interesting that Spain won the WC in 2010 employing tippy tappy and dominating the opposition with possession football. 8 years later we have a team, France, who win the WC by having far less possession than the opposition but really making what possession they have count. It clearly shows that football evolves and ways are found to combat what at the time might seem unbeatable. That's what makes football so great.

A team having limited possession but winning, hmmm. Sounds like the Colin Way.That & fake a few head injuries. Gareth S is too polite a fella to turn down advice from any quarter. Expect a call from Mr W?

 

 

 

[Murraysrightplum]

My wife will never agree

[frenchred]

will never ever happen in england i’m afraid. they start at grass roots level from age 6 up. fully inclusive, no winning at all costs, coaching funded by fff and played in great facilities

[YorkshireSection]

47 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Up to a point I agree. What we lack is one or maybe two individuals with a little bit of genius.

We have a good team but lack a Modric or a Gascoigne etc to change something and unlock a tight defence.

Hopefully the junior teams have that guy!

We got where we did because we didn't have " a name ", we need to keep that team spirit, so any player that is going to come into that current group will have to be without an ego.

Maybe we have the said player within the group already, the team is young and are playing football at the highest level, week to week they are tested and will only get better. 

In 4 years time, if every player improves by only 5%, we will have a team improved by small margins that will give huge improvement, we will have also have a team that will be experienced in 2 tournaments. I think with that in mind we should be in a good place come Qatar.

[reddoh]

1 hour ago, Murraysrightplum said:

My wife will never agree

as the french say "thats life"

[jj77]

12 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Up to a point I agree. What we lack is one or maybe two individuals with a little bit of genius.

We have a good team but lack a Modric or a Gascoigne etc to change something and unlock a tight defence.

Hopefully the junior teams have that guy!

At those ages we have those players.

It's just that as they get older they seem to lose the magic ie. Joe Cole, Ravel Morrison

[Phileas Fogg]

9 minutes ago, jj77 said:

At those ages we have those players.

It's just that as they get older they seem to lose the magic ie. Joe Cole, Ravel Morrison

Joe Cole was never the same after his cruciate injury. I also think he'd have been better off not at Chelsea - somewhere where he'd have played every week as the main man.

Morrison is just a bad egg unfortunately. He is incredibly gifted but wasted it by his off the pitch stuff. Only 25 so plenty of time for him to turn his career around, I just can't see it happening though.

We do have a few promising ones coming through - Phil Foden for one. He's only 18, but if he's good enough (like Rooney was) I'm all for blooding him at senior level. If he's not going to get games at Man City it would be good to see him get regular games in the Prem through a loan. Video of him here - I know it's mainly youth highlights but shows you the sort of player he is, skillful, excellent vision and an eye for goal. Hopefully he's the answer. 

[1bristolcity]

12 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Up to a point I agree. What we lack is one or maybe two individuals with a little bit of genius.

We have a good team but lack a Modric or a Gascoigne etc to change something and unlock a tight defence.

Hopefully the junior teams have that guy!

This has been the problem with the current squad, we were crying out for a modern day Gazza or Scholes, I was wondering if we should have taken a risk with Willshire, I know he is injury prone, but probably the best we have. Also we couldn't really rotate with quality, we didn't have quality in every position. Kane's drop off in form probably cost us hugely, he was visibly knackered in the end. As much as I applauded Sterling after Columbia he was a huge let down. France I tipped from the beginning because they are strong in every department , and so young. They can only get better. But so can we.   

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, 1bristolcity said:

This has been the problem with the current squad, we were crying out for a modern day Gazza or Scholes, I was wondering if we should have taken a risk with Willshire, I know he is injury prone, but probably the best we have. Also we couldn't really rotate with quality, we didn't have quality in every position. Kane's drop off in form probably cost us hugely, he was visibly knackered in the end. As much as I applauded Sterling after Columbia he was a huge let down. France I tipped from the beginning because they are strong in every department , and so young. They can only get better. But so can we.   

On Wilshire, think he took a bit of a disappointingly easy and perhaps lazy option- but he could have been good.

In 2016, Roma were interested in a loan for him- so too were AC Milan purportedly, but he went to Bournemouth.

This summer, potential interest from Italian clubs again (may have had CL football too), went to West Ham on a free.

We undoubtedly have a good age profile, quite a few good players and the national team is in a decent place but abroad to another top 3 or 4 League in Europe- different tactics, style of play and a big club (not talking midtable but Milan and Roma fairly major clubs)- the experience could have helped him IMO- broadened his game a bit.

[1bristolcity]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

On Wilshire, think he took a bit of a disappointingly easy and perhaps lazy option- but he could have been good.

In 2016, Roma were interested in a loan for him- so too were AC Milan purportedly, but he went to Bournemouth.

This summer, potential interest from Italian clubs again (may have had CL football too), went to West Ham on a free.

We undoubtedly have good players and the national team is in a decent place but abroad to another top 3 or 4 League in Europe- different tactics, style of play and a big club (not talking midtable but Milan and Roma fairly major clubs)- the experience could have helped him IMO.

Yes I suppose AC Milan vs Bournemouth, no brainer.  

[Carey 6]

12 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Up to a point I agree. What we lack is one or maybe two individuals with a little bit of genius.

We have a good team but lack a Modric or a Gascoigne etc to change something and unlock a tight defence.

Hopefully the junior teams have that guy!

I think we have a couple of players coming through that could reach those levels. Early days though so it's hard to tell. 

Mason Mount (Chelsea) and Phil Foden (Man City) will hopefully fulfil their potential. 

Sky Sports article from a couple of days ago about 5 players to keep a look out for. 

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11436981/englands-five-potential-breakthrough-stars

[Major Isewater]

11 minutes ago, 1bristolcity said:

This has been the problem with the current squad, we were crying out for a modern day Gazza or Scholes, I was wondering if we should have taken a risk with Willshire, I know he is injury prone, but probably the best we have. Also we couldn't really rotate with quality, we didn't have quality in every position. Kane's drop off in form probably cost us hugely, he was visibly knackered in the end. As much as I applauded Sterling after Columbia he was a huge let down. France I tipped from the beginning because they are strong in every department , and so young. They can only get better. But so can we.   

Not counting the players like Payet , Benzima and company who were either injured or just didn't make the squad.

Deschamps deserves a lot of credit for forming a team and not just a collection of talented individuals.

England are getting there but we are still a long way behind in terms of technique compared to the French.

The pleasing thing for me is the fact that for once we looked à unit and not just a bunch of blokes picked from the top six in the Prem.

Well done to Southgate .

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, 1bristolcity said:

Yes I suppose AC Milan vs Bournemouth, no brainer.  

Yeah, just the easy option Bournemouth- the soft option IMO. (Bournemouth an excellent footballing side, Howe a fine coach- but just easy). Roma could have been good too- mixing as they did counter attack and possession, playing with a back 3 in 16/17 etc.

6 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

I think we have a couple of players coming through that could reach those levels. Early days though so it's hard to tell. 

Mason Mount (Chelsea) and Phil Foden (Man City) will hopefully fulfil their potential. 

Sky Sports article from a couple of days ago about 5 players to keep a look out for. 

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11436981/englands-five-potential-breakthrough-stars

Little surprised Maddison is not seen as one to watch in that list- I know it's only one season at Norwich, but Leicester a good place to develop further IMO.

[1bristolcity]

15 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Not counting the players like Payet , Benzima and company who were either injured or just didn't make the squad.

Deschamps deserves a lot of credit for forming a team and not just a collection of talented individuals.

England are getting there but we are still a long way behind in terms of technique compared to the French.

The pleasing thing for me is the fact that for once we looked à unit and not just a bunch of blokes picked from the top six in the Prem.

Well done to Southgate .

Indeed Major, looks like we at last have the foundations to go on and improve on this. No one should feel disappointed in losing in the Semi's although those of us that have suffered football for so long...will agree we were a tad fortunate to get that far. France did not have a easy route and deserve it, pains me, but they do.

 

France so near, but so far in football terms 

[chipdawg]

France's victory this year is more about other teams than them. None of the other main contenders managed to put it together, Italy and Holland didn't even get there. So many of the other teams have reached the end of their 'cycle', France were in the right place at the right time. That's not to say they're not a good team, is just hasten to copy anything they've done recently or the way they play

[Phileas Fogg]

2 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

France's victory this year is more about other teams than them. None of the other main contenders managed to put it together, Italy and Holland didn't even get there. So many of the other teams have reached the end of their 'cycle', France were in the right place at the right time. That's not to say they're not a good team, is just hasten to copy anything they've done recently or the way they play

That's true but that's World Cup football. It's not like a Premier League season where generally the best team wins over a few months, it's condensed into 4 weeks of games in quick succession. 

A lot of it is about being in the 'right place at the right time', keeping your best players fit, not getting too many bookings and having a bit of luck. 

I think that's what makes the World Cup so enjoyable - it's rarely predictable.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

France's victory this year is more about other teams than them. None of the other main contenders managed to put it together, Italy and Holland didn't even get there. So many of the other teams have reached the end of their 'cycle', France were in the right place at the right time. That's not to say they're not a good team, is just hasten to copy anything they've done recently or the way they play

Still think one of the biggest contenders genuinely wrecked their own chances- Spain sacking manager day before the tournament and putting an inexperienced Hierro in charge.

Principled move sure- but disastrous for their tournament. Hierro's limited experience showed v Russia where they passed, passed, passed and...nothing. The stupidest act of self-sabotage before a major tournament I've seen.

[chipdawg]

19 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

That's true but that's World Cup football. It's not like a Premier League season where generally the best team wins over a few months, it's condensed into 4 weeks of games in quick succession. 

A lot of it is about being in the 'right place at the right time', keeping your best players fit, not getting too many bookings and having a bit of luck. 

I think that's what makes the World Cup so enjoyable - it's rarely predictable.

It wasn't really a comment on this world cup (which I agree has been really enjoyable), more to caution against putting too much stock in France's win. They've got some great players, but it's not like their tactics represented a change in the way people think about football. They were just pragmatic and functional and defended very well when they needed to

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Still think one of the biggest contenders genuinely wrecked their own chances- Spain sacking manager day before the tournament and putting an inexperienced Hierro in charge.

Principled move sure- but disastrous for their tournament. Hierro's limited experience showed v Russia where they passed, passed, passed and...nothing. The stupidest act of self-sabotage before a major tournament I've seen.

I think Real Madrid did the sobataging, approaching the national coach behind their FA's back and then announcing the appointment days before the world cup. Self interest over national interest. However, I think Spain are on a downward curve at the mo, though they'll undoubtedly be able to start plugging new players into the team for the Euros

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, chipdawg said:

It wasn't really a comment on this world cup (which I agree has been really enjoyable), more to caution against putting too much stock in France's win. They've got some great players, but it's not like their tactics represented a change in the way people think about football. They were just pragmatic and functional and defended very well when they needed to

I think Real Madrid did the sobataging, approaching the national coach behind their FA's back and then announcing the appointment days before the world cup. Self interest over national interest. However, I think Spain are on a downward curve at the mo, though they'll undoubtedly be able to start plugging new players into the team for the Euros

France Sunday? 2 great goals definitely, but that scoreline at HT somehow 2-1 up from 1 shot on target- that was crazy. However given the players they have, I think it's Deschamps that's holding them back in terms of flair and style...they have a crazy amount of talent, flair and youth as a combination.

Downward curve for sure, self-interest over national interest all true. Though I think minus the disruption they would have been big contenders- just because of their experience and the amount of CL winners in that side.

[EnderMB]

I've felt for a long time that England's biggest weakness has been that its players refuse to play outside of England. Regardless of how good our players are, there's is simply no way that we're going to get a full England squad where everyone is playing football at the highest level, because there are only a finite number of spaces in Premier League football, and without severe (and most likely illegal) quotas on foreign players there's no way it'll happen.

When Hodgson took over the England job, I thought this would all change. It was the first time we had a manager with real experience outside of England, and given that we were at a real low point in the talent pool I assumed he'd be pushing the FA towards promoting our talent pool to foreign academies. Even if we only get a dozen or so players playing top-flight football football during his tenure, that's probably one or two players that'll make the England squad. Sadly, that didn't happen.

That's not to say that you cannot be a good team without having diversity in your squad. If you look at Spain, Germany, and Italy, most of their players play in their own country, but at least 4-5 of those players play abroad for teams that frequently play continental football. 

In my opinion, the FA need to force the narrative that our youngsters need to be playing football full-time from as young an age as possible. That might mean in the Football League, and that's fine, but it should mean that players should seriously consider whether they'd be better placed being a big fish in a small pond, or a medium-sized fish in a different pond. Most importantly, footballers need to realise the opportunity that their careers afford them. There are very few jobs where you have the opportunity to earn a ton of money AND live almost wherever you want in the world. A lot of European youngsters realise these opportunities, whether they are footballers or students looking to study abroad, but you rarely see British kids see these opportunities. As a first pass, the FA should be selling youngsters on their books to European FA's, to academies/universities in America, or to clubs that want to take a gamble on an English player that might shoot up in price.