Italian Football

[Bristol Rob]

Haven't seen this widely reported, is the global football bubble starting to burst?

 

[JoeAman08]

Think there were a couple more(could be 2 of those 3 and I am mistaken) that did not register for serie b and declared bankruptcy. Saw it on twitter a few days ago. First thoughts are no it is not a bubble bursting per se. Think Serie A struggles for crowds even. Most teams have to be quite frugal and imagine it is that much tougher being in Serie B. I want to say they have been struggling since they had the match fixing scandals. I am not 100% sure though. Anyway, think that is just Italy and think most other countries can do just enough to stay afloat. 

[CyderInACan]

Maybe not the bubble bursting but I think football certainly needs a readjustment- the sums of money involved these days are reaching farcical proportions. 

[Globe Trotter]

Sad times, remember those clubs from Football Italia on channel 4 and championship manager back in the day! 

[Kid in the Riot]

 

 

[reformed_red]

Bari and Regina. 

For context, that's not too dissimilar to clubs such as Derby and Ipswich in terms of clubs in England. Both have top flight history but struggled more recently.

Sad.

Puts a great perspective of where we are and English football is financially. Good Lord I hope Sky keep pumping the dollar into our game.....

[Mr Popodopolous]

Sad to see. Bari in particular are a club with a big ground, and a big potential fan base on paper (it's not a small place).

The- or I should say a- problem with Italian football is that every Serie A game is shown domestically on TV, live.

Pay TV admittedly, but nonetheless pretty sure all are shown live which has a  knock-on effect on attendances of Serie A, let alone further down the chain.

Struck me when I went to Roma-Inter last August that the stadium was only 2/3, maybe 70% full. Amazing atmosphere but only 50,000 opening home game of season, bit of a heavyweight clash- thought I would have trouble getting tickets.

Funnily though, despite all this Serie A isn't a bad League tactically and technically- but it has a fair few big structural problems off the pitch.

[JoeAman08]

32 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe not the bubble bursting but I think football certainly needs a readjustment- the sums of money involved these days are reaching farcical proportions. 

It is like football is trying to compete with American sports but that is a losing battle. The money is US sports goes to them. There aren’t divisions below them that need to keep up with the free spending. Football needs a reality check or a restructure. Think the rich would prefer restructure example being super league

Honestly think the biggest clubs in Europe would not care if every team went bankrupt and they became franchises in a european league. It would be a sad state of affairs but more likely than bigger clubs sharing income more evenly throughout. There will be a point where there will be a crossroads. Not sure if in 5 years or 20 but the fate of many clubs will probably end up being timing. Where you are in the leagues and financially will determine the future of your club. Will be a sad time for sure. 

[Undy English]

1 hour ago, JoeAman08 said:

Think there were a couple more(could be 2 of those 3 and I am mistaken) that did not register for serie b and declared bankruptcy. Saw it on twitter a few days ago. First thoughts are no it is not a bubble bursting per se. Think Serie A struggles for crowds even. Most teams have to be quite frugal and imagine it is that much tougher being in Serie B. I want to say they have been struggling since they had the match fixing scandals. I am not 100% sure though. Anyway, think that is just Italy and think most other countries can do just enough to stay afloat. 

Agree entirely. Used to love Football Italia back in the 90s every Sunday, now some of the teams I grew up watching are going bankrupt, Parma being one of the more famous cases although they are slowly rebuilding.

I always find it crazy when I do watch Italian football how stadiums are only 2/3rds full, even for 'big' games. Is there any specific reason for this?

[Mr Popodopolous]

47 minutes ago, Undy English said:

Agree entirely. Used to love Football Italia back in the 90s every Sunday, now some of the teams I grew up watching are going bankrupt, Parma being one of the more famous cases although they are slowly rebuilding.

I always find it crazy when I do watch Italian football how stadiums are only 2/3rds full, even for 'big' games. Is there any specific reason for this?

A variety tbh. Been to one such big game myself, Roma-Inter on a Saturday night last year.

• As far as I know, all Serie A games shown domestically on Pay TV. This clearly has a knock-on effect for the big clubs, let alone those further down the chain.
• It is hard to get tickets- mix of anti-hooligan measures, corruption and bureaucracy. This clearly will put people off.
• Grounds built years ago too big for the clubs- with a lack of other facilities to use round the year. This provides authenticity, but at the same time a lack of revenue streams. Better off in a 40-50k stadium that's more modern with all those off-field facilities even if it would be a bit sanitised.
• Still on that theme, the bureaucracy prevalent in Italian life means that getting out of deals of council-owned grounds with all that entails is rather difficult, as is planning permission for new stadia.
• A lot of Serie A clubs (Juventus the big exception and maybe one or 2 mid range ones) relatively clueless commercially.
• There has been a hooliganism issue for a while there- in-roads are being made into it for sure, but whether it still puts a lot off I'm unsure.

I'm sure there are other reasons but those are the main ones for me. Because personally the standard is not too bad I find, still pretty sound tactically too- but it has a lot of structural problems off the pitch.

[Undy English]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

A variety tbh. Been to one such big game myself, Roma-Inter on a Saturday night last year.

• As far as I know, all Serie A games shown domestically on Pay TV. This clearly has a knock-on effect for the big clubs, let alone those further down the chain.
• It is hard to get tickets- mix of anti-hooligan measures, corruption and bureaucracy. This clearly will put people off.
• Grounds built years ago too big for the clubs- with a lack of other facilities to use round the year. This provides authenticity, but at the same time a lack of revenue streams. Better off in a 40-50k stadium that's more modern with all those off-field facilities even if it would be a bit sanitised.
• Still on that theme, the bureaucracy prevalent in Italian life means that getting out of deals of council-owned grounds with all that entails is rather difficult, as is planning permission for new stadia.
• A lot of Serie A clubs (Juventus the big exception and maybe one or 2 mid range ones) relatively clueless commercially.
• There has been a hooliganism issue for a while there- in-roads are being made into it for sure, but whether it still puts a lot off I'm unsure.

I'm sure there are other reasons but those are the main ones for me. Because personally the standard is not too bad I find, still pretty sound tactically too- but it has a lot of structural problems off the pitch.

Thanks for clarifying and completely get the difficult nature of Italian bureaucracy and state/council owned grounds. Also appreciate hooliganism is a big issue over there as fans and police have died whilst known ultra groups i.e. Juve, do carry weapons.

The lackluster understanding of being commercially savvy is very interesting. Went to Rome a few years back and I think Lazio are one of the only clubs I've ever visited who sell prior seasons kit and merchandise in their shop at cut price!! So, let's say you're a tourist wanting a shirt, prepared to part with 80 euros for the privilege, you walk in the shop and discover you can buy a shirt for only 30 euros! Happy days! Say what you like about Bristol Sport, but this wouldn't happen down the Gate!

[handsofclay]

I watch a lot of Italian football on BT Sport. All very sad. It goes to show that they are really struggling in Serie A and Serie B. It would be great way for Ronaldo to endear himself to the Italian fans if he donated half a day's wages every week to keeping all these clubs afloat. 

[Bristol Rob]

48 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

I watch a lot of Italian football on BT Sport. All very sad. It goes to show that they are really struggling in Serie A and Serie B. It would be great way for Ronaldo to endear himself to the Italian fans if he donated half a day's wages every week to keeping all these clubs afloat. 

Not his responsibility and I would imagine he already gives a fair bit of time and money to worthy causes.

Might be a better idea for the Italian FA to implement some sort of financial controls.

[View from the Dolman]

51 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

I watch a lot of Italian football on BT Sport. All very sad. It goes to show that they are really struggling in Serie A and Serie B. It would be great way for Ronaldo to endear himself to the Italian fans if he donated half a day's wages every week to keeping all these clubs afloat. 

I'll just throw in that BT no longer have the rights to Serie A - it will now be covered by Eleven Sports who also recently acquired the rights to La Liga. Full details of how to watch Eleven Sports are yet to be revealed...

[handsofclay]

8 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

I'll just throw in that BT no longer have the rights to Serie A - it will now be covered by Eleven Sports who also recently acquired the rights to La Liga. Full details of how to watch Eleven Sports are yet to be revealed...

Oh, bugger. 

[TBW]

Went to see Roma-Atalanta last season and basically an entire stand was empty. If Roma can't pull them in when they were in second place at the time, what hope do Bari have?

[PHILINFRANCE]

6 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

 

Very sad; possibly the only thing left in his life and now it has been taken away.

Those on this forum who continued to follow City after the 1982 catastrophe will recall how, no matter how bad things were, the Club still existed: just imagine if we had actually gone bankrupt.

 

[Undy English]

9 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Very sad; possibly the only thing left in his life and now it has been taken away.

 

Very sad indeed. There was a time when Serie A was the best in Europe, broke transfer record markets, attracted the biggest names, even everyone in England watched on Channel 4.

I still remember when Inter signed Fat Ronaldo. The transfer value and wages involved at the time were so astronomical that even the Vatican got involved, making a statement to say how ludicrous it all was getting. 

[Zookeeper WSM]

Sad to see. Me and my son (now 12) do a bit of a ground / city hop of a European country for a few days each year. Italy is by far my favourite. I think it's the only country that challenges england (and Scotland for that matter) as having its clubs bang in the heart of the community and all the tradition and culture that goes with it. Sad to see these great clubs going this way.

[EmersonsRed]

5 hours ago, View from the Dolman said:

I'll just throw in that BT no longer have the rights to Serie A - it will now be covered by Eleven Sports who also recently acquired the rights to La Liga. Full details of how to watch Eleven Sports are yet to be revealed...

Yes. This is an odd one. They've bought Dutch rights from Sky too. They have no channel currently, all online. Not sure they'll have a channel either. They are in talks with major firms apparently.

[Nomad]

9 hours ago, reformed_red said:

Bari and Regina. 

For context, that's not too dissimilar to clubs such as Derby and Ipswich in terms of clubs in England. Both have top flight history but struggled more recently.

Sad.

Puts a great perspective of where we are and English football is financially. Good Lord I hope Sky keep pumping the dollar into our game.....

Really? I don't. TV money has been slowly killing football since Sky started broadcasting it. It just makes the divide between the haves and have nots bigger. Football needs a far more level playing field to give proper competition. 

[chinapig]

9 hours ago, Undy English said:

Agree entirely. Used to love Football Italia back in the 90s every Sunday, now some of the teams I grew up watching are going bankrupt, Parma being one of the more famous cases although they are slowly rebuilding.

I always find it crazy when I do watch Italian football how stadiums are only 2/3rds full, even for 'big' games. Is there any specific reason for this?

Parma are back with a vengeance! 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/the-gentleman-ultra/2018/may/24/parma-serie-a-three-straight-promotions-italy

And for anybody interested in Italian football and the great days of Football Italia, I recommend James Richardson's Golazzo podcast:

https://www.thetotallyfootballshow.com/golazzo-totally-italian-football-show/

 

[Full nelson]

Italian football is very close to my heart and I have friends from city/towns who have lost their club to financial difficulties. It’s sad to see but the crowds have fallen, wages increased and stadiums falling into disrepair and costing large amounts of money to fix.

On the other hand Juve have spotted the potential to lead the line for Italian football and stretch the gap between themselves and the others. It will also be interesting to see where Roma go from here with £75 million Euro’s to spend from the sale of their GK.

I think we will see an Italian team winning the champions league within the next 2 years if not this season. Italian football needed a good rebrand and now they have CR7 playing in the league, things can only look up for the Serie A but not not so much for the lower half of Serie B and lower. 

 

 

[Undy English]

11 hours ago, Full nelson said:

Italian football is very close to my heart and I have friends from city/towns who have lost their club to financial difficulties. It’s sad to see but the crowds have fallen, wages increased and stadiums falling into disrepair and costing large amounts of money to fix.

On the other hand Juve have spotted the potential to lead the line for Italian football and stretch the gap between themselves and the others. It will also be interesting to see where Roma go from here with £75 million Euro’s to spend from the sale of their GK.

I think we will see an Italian team winning the champions league within the next 2 years if not this season. Italian football needed a good rebrand and now they have CR7 playing in the league, things can only look up for the Serie A but not not so much for the lower half of Serie B and lower. 

 

 

Well said. Hope to see resurgence of Italian Football now the global CR7 brand is at Juve and Roma have buckets of money to spend!

I think there is still a fondness for Serie A in the UK thanks to Football Italia back in the day. Plus in England, following another English club, i.e. in the Prem, is a taboo that's frowned upon. Having a second team you follow in Italy however........Lazio all day mate.

[downendcity]

15 hours ago, Nomad said:

Really? I don't. TV money has been slowly killing football since Sky started broadcasting it. It just makes the divide between the haves and have nots bigger. Football needs a far more level playing field to give proper competition. 

Absolutely right Nomad.

Just looking at English football, in my youth the football league worked mainly because of the trickle down effect. Yes, the top clubs were the wealthiest, but TV money was shared through the league, but on "fair" basis. Wealth came down through the leagues when top clubs bought players from lower league clubs, which was the normal back then as most 1st division clubs were made up mainly of English players. Back then there was far less of a gulf between the 1st and 2nd division, so we saw clubs like Carlisle, Oxford, Notts County and even us gain promotion and be relatively competitive.

The prem was formed because top clubs felt they deserved more, if not most, of the money they could see would come from the upcoming Sky deals, and we have seen what has happened in the meantime so the richest clubs have got bigger and bigger and financially more powerful. During that time the gulf between the prem and championship has become ever greater, and is exacerbated by the huge parachute payments relegated clubs now receive. There is also less of a trickle down effect because top clubs mainly comprise foreign players, so that trickle down money goes abroad.

In the early days of the prem the foreign "stars" that came here tended to be players in their 30s looking for one last payday - a bit like China or MLS today. More recently we have seen foreign players in their prime coming to the prem because the money available beats everyone else into a cocked hat.

Not only has the prem and it's TV money skewed football in England, it has done so on a European basis. The problem is that there is little to no chance of levelling the playing field because it would need to involvement and agreement of the top clubs.  In fact, the top clubs, both here and throughout Europe would love to take things to the next level by forming some sort elite league, so that they could negotiate their own TV deals  and keep all of the money to themselves, without obligations to share with poor relations like Leicester, Bournemouth etc.

The Genie is out of the bottle and I don't anticipate it being put back in during my lifetime, unless there is a seismic shift in Sky subscriptions or if City are promoted to the prem, because you can bet that as soon as we get there, they will change the rules and pull the financial carpet from under our feet!

[Mr Popodopolous]

20 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Absolutely right Nomad.

Just looking at English football, in my youth the football league worked mainly because of the trickle down effect. Yes, the top clubs were the wealthiest, but TV money was shared through the league, but on "fair" basis. Wealth came down through the leagues when top clubs bought players from lower league clubs, which was the normal back then as most 1st division clubs were made up mainly of English players. Back then there was far less of a gulf between the 1st and 2nd division, so we saw clubs like Carlisle, Oxford, Notts County and even us gain promotion and be relatively competitive.

The prem was formed because top clubs felt they deserved more, if not most, of the money they could see would come from the upcoming Sky deals, and we have seen what has happened in the meantime so the richest clubs have got bigger and bigger and financially more powerful. During that time the gulf between the prem and championship has become ever greater, and is exacerbated by the huge parachute payments relegated clubs now receive. There is also less of a trickle down effect because top clubs mainly comprise foreign players, so that trickle down money goes abroad.

In the early days of the prem the foreign "stars" that came here tended to be players in their 30s looking for one last payday - a bit like China or MLS today. More recently we have seen foreign players in their prime coming to the prem because the money available beats everyone else into a cocked hat.

Not only has the prem and it's TV money skewed football in England, it has done so on a European basis. The problem is that there is little to no chance of levelling the playing field because it would need to involvement and agreement of the top clubs.  In fact, the top clubs, both here and throughout Europe would love to take things to the next level by forming some sort elite league, so that they could negotiate their own TV deals  and keep all of the money to themselves, without obligations to share with poor relations like Leicester, Bournemouth etc.

The Genie is out of the bottle and I don't anticipate it being put back in during my lifetime, unless there is a seismic shift in Sky subscriptions or if City are promoted to the prem, because you can bet that as soon as we get there, they will change the rules and pull the financial carpet from under our feet!

It may have been skewed monetarily in Europe in terms of transfers and ability to pay big, but in recent years, English clubs have not dominated in Europe.  That's been the big 2 with Atletico on the coat tails and then Sevilla winning quite a few Europa Leagues. (Mind you, the big 2 in Spain are themselves extremely wealthy clubs).

Think Juventus also reached 2 out of 3 Champions League finals too.