Line up vs Bournemouth

[Port Said Red]

9 hours ago, Kingswoodactor said:

I'm a bit gobsmacked. IMO he put in at least 4 superb crosses, and a few other decent ones. In fact the one for Weimann was a worldie of a ball, and the one when he cut in from the right near the end, and whipped it to the back post was superb. If Fam timed his run better, it was a tap in header from 4 yards.

It looked like a mirror image of this one to me.

 

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

10 hours ago, cheshire_red said:

Had sound full up and still could only just hear it, needs sorting.

 

Yes, it was the same for me, thought it was my laptop, so  glad to hear I wasn't the only one with a sound problem. Thought about subscribing last season, but decided to wait until all the gremlins were sorted, still seems as if a few improvements could and should be made.

[spudski]

I'm probably in a minority here...but I'm not a fan of 'wingers' like Elliasson who whip in crosses to the box.

It might be exciting to watch, but imo, more often than not, leads to losing possession and coming under pressure whilst out of position.

If the ball is won from the cross, or it leads to the ball going out of play, so we can reorganise, then fine...but actually how often does that happen?

It often amuses me, when teams try to play possession football from the back, want a keeper who can play football, and try to be in control of where the ball is, organised...in total control....yet that all goes out the window when you play a 50/50 ball into the box from either a wingers cross or corner

More often than not, it leads to losing possession and coming under pressure, whilst being out of shape.

It contradicts everything you are trying to establish during the majority of a game.

Wonder what the stats show, from crosses into a box...how many goals scored, against losing possession and coming under pressure....

In theory...if you are going to play with 50/50 crosses into the box, you may as well play like Warnock does.

[Major Isewater]

12 hours ago, RedM said:

Dare I whisper, the new you know who? 

Voldemort ? 

[Robbored]

13 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'm probably in a minority here...but I'm not a fan of 'wingers' like Elliasson who whip in crosses to the box.

It might be exciting to watch, but imo, more often than not, leads to losing possession and coming under pressure whilst out of position.

If the ball is won from the cross, or it leads to the ball going out of play, so we can reorganise, then fine...but actually how often does that happen?

It often amuses me, when teams try to play possession football from the back, want a keeper who can play football, and try to be in control of where the ball is, organised...in total control....yet that all goes out the window when you play a 50/50 ball into the box from either a wingers cross or corner

More often than not, it leads to losing possession and coming under pressure, whilst being out of shape.

It contradicts everything you are trying to establish during the majority of a game.

Wonder what the stats show, from crosses into a box...how many goals scored, against losing possession and coming under pressure....

You probably won't be in the minority after posting this.

Personally I'd never considered that losing possession from a cross is pretty much the same as losing possession from long inaccurate balls from back to front.

Its certainly because wingers and wide play is often very attractive to witness - who remembers the likes of Mark Gavin, Smudger Smith, Scot Murray bombing up and down the wing?  Great to watch! Even if it came to nothing.......

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

You probably won't be in the minority after posting this.

Personally I'd never considered that losing possession from a cross is pretty much the same as losing possession from long inaccurate balls from back to front.

Its certainly because wingers and wide play is often very attractive to witness - who remembers the likes of Mark Gavin, Smudger Smith, Scot Murray bombing up and down the wing?  Great to watch! Even if it came to nothing.......

One of the most clueless and ridiculous things  I’ve ever seen posted on here RR

congratulations 

Further period where you seem to have missed games and what actually happened 

[chinapig]

14 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'm probably in a minority here...but I'm not a fan of 'wingers' like Elliasson who whip in crosses to the box.

It might be exciting to watch, but imo, more often than not, leads to losing possession and coming under pressure whilst out of position.

If the ball is won from the cross, or it leads to the ball going out of play, so we can reorganise, then fine...but actually how often does that happen?

It often amuses me, when teams try to play possession football from the back, want a keeper who can play football, and try to be in control of where the ball is, organised...in total control....yet that all goes out the window when you play a 50/50 ball into the box from either a wingers cross or corner

More often than not, it leads to losing possession and coming under pressure, whilst being out of shape.

It contradicts everything you are trying to establish during the majority of a game.

Wonder what the stats show, from crosses into a box...how many goals scored, against losing possession and coming under pressure....

In theory...if you are going to play with 50/50 crosses into the box, you may as well play like Warnock does.

I take your point and I suspect that the chance of picking out a teammate in a crowded area may be less than 50/50. It's rather different when a teammate has found space, as with the cross to Weimann last night.

Which means your wingers need to vary things, not just whip in a cross every time, sometimes taking on the defender to create a better crossing position, cutting inside to find a pass or shot, switching the play, even - ignoring the groans - passing back so the team can build a better position.

As ever it's about decision making and not just doing what might get the crowd excited but lead nowhere.

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I take your point and I suspect that the chance of picking out a teammate in a crowded area may be less than 50/50. It's rather different when a teammate has found space, as with the cross to Weimann last night.

Which means your wingers need to vary things, not just whip in a cross every time, sometimes taking on the defender to create a better crossing position, cutting inside to find a pass or shot, switching the play, even - ignoring the groans - passing back so the team can build a better position.

As ever it's about decision making and not just doing what might get the crowd excited but lead nowhere.

A balance , when nearly every single forward will want balls whipped in early

[Robbored]

16 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

One of the most clueless and ridiculous things  I’ve ever seen posted on here RR

congratulations 

Further period where you seem to have missed games and what actually happened 

Thanks Bob!................

I forgot Alan Walsh, Greg Goodridge, Junior Bent.........don't you like to see wide men beating the full back and whipping in a cross? 

Btw - perhaps you could explain why you think it's ridiculous?

[spudski]

14 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I take your point and I suspect that the chance of picking out a teammate in a crowded area may be less than 50/50. It's rather different when a teammate has found space, as with the cross to Weimann last night.

Which means your wingers need to vary things, not just whip in a cross every time, sometimes taking on the defender to create a better crossing position, cutting inside to find a pass or shot, switching the play, even - ignoring the groans - passing back so the team can build a better position.

As ever it's about decision making and not just doing what might get the crowd excited but lead nowhere.

Exactly...picking out a player with an accurate ball, rather than a cross in to space, making it 50/50. Getting to the bye line and picking out an oncoming player to pass back to. All beneficial...it's just the 50/50 balls I don't like. No point in doing all that hard work, then making it 50/50.

No doubting Elliasson brings a lot of positives to the team... draws players, creates space for others, has a rather accurate cross as we saw with Weiman yesterday.

Just needs to make sure we don't just whip in crosses for the sake of it...as for every Famara, there are three others stopping it.

[chinapig]

14 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

A balance , when nearly every single forward will want balls whipped in early

Indeed, even when it's not the best thing to do. If the opposition know exactly what the winger is going to do it makes it easier to counter. Keep them guessing I say.

Mind you I think Eliasson has the talent to do exactly that. The decision making will improve with coaching and experience, especially as he seems to be a keen learner.

[handsofclay]

14 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Thanks Bob!................

I forgot Alan Walsh, Greg Goodridge, Junior Bent.........don't you like to see wide men beating the full back and whipping in a cross? 

Btw - perhaps you could explain why you think it's ridiculous?

I think it was the bit at the end where you mention the likes of Smith, Murray and Gavin bombing down the wing as being exciting even if it didn't come to anything. Well, there were a fair few times it did!

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

Exactly...picking out a player with an accurate ball, rather than a cross in to space, making it 50/50. Getting to the bye line and picking out an oncoming player to pass back to. All beneficial...it's just the 50/50 balls I don't like. No point in doing all that hard work, then making it 50/50.

No doubting Elliasson brings a lot of positives to the team... draws players, creates space for others, has a rather accurate cross as we saw with Weiman yesterday.

Just needs to make sure we don't just whip in crosses for the sake of it...as for every Famara, there are three others stopping it.

Not debating your general point Spudski but how do you discourage a wide player from whipping in a cross, especially as Bob says most strikers like the ball played in early?

Lets not forget that most of us love to see exciting wing play. It's gets out of our seats, raises the excitement levels and on occasions leads to a goal.

[Iron Acton Red]

10 hours ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Looking forward to seeing how much Callum O'Dowda will add to this team. For me, it is no coincidence that our drop in form coincided with his horrible injury.

Yes i agree with that,he was really hitting form and starting to live up to his potential before his injury.

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

I think it was the bit at the end where you mention the likes of Smith, Murray and Gavin bombing down the wing as being exciting even if it didn't come to anything. Well, there were a fair few times it did!

Of course! and it was  thrilling to watch. 

Having considered Spudski's point, I guess the top PL side Man City, don't have an abundance of recognised out and out wingers. I guess Sterling is about as close you'd get.

[Johnny Musicworks]

From a defenders point of view having a winger that can beat you for pace and deliver pacey accurate balls into the box consistently is a nightmare. Beckham didn’t have pace but his accuracy overcame that. Eliasson has accuracy pace and a few tricks too.

Statistically possession can be lost with crosses as it can by shooting but the pressure it puts on defenders (who even if they win the first ball can find it coming straight back in again) is immense.

The one fault of possession based teams like Arsenal is for all their dominance they don’t always get the ball into the dangerous areas enough. We dominated possession in some games at the back-end of last season but did not create enough chances. I am already optimistic that problem is being addressed and with COD, Watkins and Adelakun we have some great options this season (injury permitting).

 

[Luxo Jr.]

19 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Of course! and it was  thrilling to watch. 

Having considered Spudski's point, I guess the top PL side Man City, don't have an abundance of recognised out and out wingers. I guess Sterling is about as close you'd get.

Sane's an out and out winger. Probably the best young winger in the world. Also they've just signed Mahrez.

[spudski]

31 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Not debating your general point Spudski but how do you discourage a wide player from whipping in a cross, especially as Bob says most strikers like the ball played in early?

Lets not forget that most of us love to see exciting wing play. It's gets out of our seats, raises the excitement levels and on occasions leads to a goal.

A cross from a winger is most effective when it's often on the counter attack, and you have both striker and defender racing into the box.

Not when you have defenders behind the ball to attack it.

Build up possession play, played out wide, then crossed in, with defenders behind the ball often leads to losing possession as more often than not the strikers are out numbered.

It's on the counter when it's the most effective, and played early to feet or head when the striker has gotten in front of the defender.

When the majority of the opposition are behind the ball it's least effective.

On those occasions I prefer the winger to draw players wide, to create space for others to move into, often into the 18 yard box with short accurate passing. Giving a higher percentage of receiving an accurate pass and shot on target. Something we often do.

Elliason showed he's improved his general play immensely...and was most effective on the counter.

[Red-Robbo]

One swallow doesn't make a summer, but such a performance against a decent side does give grounds for greater optimism than I had before in this side. Than again, don't we always play well against reasonable teams?

At the same time, the same logic that folk trot out when we draw with lower league sides also applies "It's only a friendly".

One of my worries is that in Flint, Reid and Bryan we're losing three players who have had an excellent record of avoiding serious injuries, whereas some of the newbies have mixed injury records. One thing you can't say in this team is have strength in depth.

[Portland Bill]

43 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Of course! and it was  thrilling to watch. 

Having considered Spudski's point, I guess the top PL side Man City, don't have an abundance of recognised out and out wingers. I guess Sterling is about as close you'd get.

Man City have players in central midfield and the no 10 area who are top class, players with real creativity who can thread balls through the eye of a needle. 

Ordinary sides like us don’t have those players, hence why we ( and others) look to wide players with pace who can get behind teams. 

Its all well and good people suggesting wide players will give the ball away from crosses, but for 90% of teams it’s the main source of creating chances. In our division it’s far easier to defend with a narrow back four if the opposition aren’t playing with width, as we found out to our cost  in the second half of last season!!

[Will Rollason]

really like the Diedhiou/ Eisa combo.. they looked like they'd played together for years.... good option . As i said earlier i liked Weimans movement and his desire for the ball... him, patterson, brownhill, taylor.. look lively ... He was sooo unlucky with that header and was a great ball in from Eliason who looks to have bulked out and did his defensive duties as well.

 

[alexukhc]

11 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

+ self inflicted 

??

[Lanterne Rouge]

The other thing about having a wide player who can cross effectively is that it draws defenders towards them and pulls them out of position. If they can still get their cross in that`s great but you can probably rely on a corner at worst. At one point last night Bournemouth had three on Niclas and he still got his cross in.

[spudski]

18 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

The other thing about having a wide player who can cross effectively is that it draws defenders towards them and pulls them out of position. If they can still get their cross in that`s great but you can probably rely on a corner at worst. At one point last night Bournemouth had three on Niclas and he still got his cross in.

3.2% chance of scoring a goal from a corner these days, taken from Opta stats.

Plus enough evidence that teams are most vulnerable when taking a corner.

Hence my posts about crosses from wingers into a well defended box...similar ethos.

Nice little read this about how the modern game is different from the past, especially when defenders and goalkeepers are now more likely to be offered 'protection' from the ref.

I think many still live in the past when he comes to seeing the positives of traditional crosses into the box, as so much has changed in the game in recent years.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/mar/27/in-defence-of-the-corner-a-much-maligned-set-piece

[BobBobSuperBob]

One of the primary reasons for an early cross is that it gives defenders a massive problem as they are trying to defend facing their own goal

Have to say some of the dismissal of the value of crosses is ‘bemusing’ to say the least

The vast majority of goals are still scored from an area at near and far posts and a zone about 6-8 yards out

Thr number of options to get the ball there are ‘limited’ 

We arnt Manchester City Or Barcelona - both methods of tic a taco And Crossing a ball early have their place as far as I’m concerned 

Like many things a case of good decisions

We finally find someone who has a great capability to cross a ball and it’s criticisee or questioned ... bemusing 

[The Bard]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

3.2% chance of scoring a goal from a corner these days, taken from Opta stats.

Plus enough evidence that teams are most vulnerable when taking a corner.

Hence my posts about crosses from wingers into a well defended box...similar ethos.

Nice little read this about how the modern game is different from the past, especially when defenders and goalkeepers are now more likely to be offered 'protection' from the ref.

I think many still live in the past when he comes to seeing the positives of traditional crosses into the box, as so much has changed in the game in recent years.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/mar/27/in-defence-of-the-corner-a-much-maligned-set-piece

You seem to be advocating what I would describe as the Spanish approach.  Just pass and pass and pass until an opportunity presents itself.  Personally I find that boring.  Eliasson has the ability to deliver crosses very quickly which is key as it catches defences out.  This is definitely a string in our bow and we should utilise it.  If he plays regularly our strikers should be expecting early crosses.  

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

You probably won't be in the minority after posting this.

Personally I'd never considered that losing possession from a cross is pretty much the same as losing possession from long inaccurate balls from back to front.

Its certainly because wingers and wide play is often very attractive to witness - who remembers the likes of Mark Gavin, Smudger Smith, Scot Murray bombing up and down the wing?  Great to watch! Even if it came to nothing.......

 

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Thanks Bob!................

I forgot Alan Walsh, Greg Goodridge, Junior Bent.........don't you like to see wide men beating the full back and whipping in a cross? 

Btw - perhaps you could explain why you think it's ridiculous?

I’ll humour you that either it’s age rather than blindness

But in reality attention seeking posting b*****x 

Grab a pencil , watch the below and make some notes to help yourself and explain lain your theory that for example Gavin & Smith ‘came to nothing’

(Good Luck)

I seriously wonder how many games you’ve actually been at

 

Truly laughable

 

[Rudolf Hucker]

My lingering concern regards Taylor.

Our game is based around players who are willing and able to play and receive passes at speed, with accuracy. Taylor's first touch is just not good enough and promising moves seem to break down when the ball is played into him. I don't think that he's a striker who is feared by Championship defenders; I don't know whether the stats bear out my feeling that he seldom seems to strike at goal. Eisa did more in his brief cameo than Taylor achieved.

I know that Taylor is a wasp who harries defenders but his efforts seem seldom to bear fruit. I don't think that Taylor is the answer. Mind you nobody asked a question.

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, The Bard said:

You seem to be advocating what I would describe as the Spanish approach.  Just pass and pass and pass until an opportunity presents itself.  Personally I find that boring.  Eliasson has the ability to deliver crosses very quickly which is key as it catches defences out.  This is definitely a string in our bow and we should utilise it.  If he plays regularly our strikers should be expecting early crosses.  

Not at all mate...read all the posts I've made in this thread, as to when it's advantageous to cross and when it's not.

It has it's benefits at the right times...but also it's disadvantages. As pointed out in my posts.

Apologies if it's not clear.

[Robbored]

7 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

I’ll humour you that either it’s age rather than blindness

 

 

 Bob what the highlights don't show is just how many times that wing play came to nothing.............even tho it was exciting to watch, it came to nothing more often than not.