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Truth about Bristol Sport ticket fees...

Olé

By Olé
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Olé

Olé

Posted
Posted

I posted about this a few weeks ago in this thread: Bolton away tickets and @Matt Parsons BCFCSLO very kindly agreed to look into this at City.

Seeing it come up again since on here and Twitter for those booking Swansea, I decided to put together the facts and an analysis of City's costs.

As you see down the bottom, the truth about these fees is convoluted, nor in the spirit of recent laws, so I include an open letter to Bristol Sport.

 

Current Status

  • City charge a £1 "booking fee" for each individual ticket (home/away) purchased.
  • This applies whether you buy online or in person, or if they are posted or collected.
  • City charge a £1 "postage" fee per overall ticket order (sent first class letter mail). 
  • This only applies if tickets are posted. Those in Bristol can avoid it by collecting.

 

Why This Matters

  • Online booking is significantly cheaper for Bristol Sport vs telephone/in person but no savings are then offered
  • Booking and postage charges are excessive and not real terms costs for Bristol Sport to provide these services
  • Booking charges are uncapped, so - for example - buying six tickets together for an away game incurs a £6 fee 
  • The government has legislated to stop this kind of excessive charging of consumers for making ticket bookings
  • Elements of Bristol Sport's costs for processing ticket bookings have reduced substantially in the past few years
  • As of January this year, it became illegal for Bristol Sport to pass on some of this processing cost to consumers
  • The club insist a booking fee does not relate to payment yet it applies not to where you bought but how you paid 

Why This Matters (Bonus Entry)

  • Other Championship clubs sponsor away fans going away while Bristol Sport are ripping off City fans who do so

 

History Lesson (via my prior Bristol Sport email receipts & experience of the industry)

  • 2015/16 season - City did not charge any booking fee for online card payments (using the same processor as today)
  • 2016 - EU wide law came into force capping underlying cost of card payments, reducing them by average of 0.5%
  • 2016/17 season - City introduce a booking fee of £1 per ticket purchased 
  • 2017/18 season - City maintain the booking fee of £1 per ticket purchased
  • 2018 - EU wide law came into force that made it illegal to pass any of the cost of card payments onto consumers
  • 2018/19 season - City maintain the booking fee of £1 per ticket purchased

City claim it is a "booking fee" which realistically and traditionally most would associate with the payment they are taking.

Now that this has been deemed illegal, City are falling back on the wording and claiming booking isn't payment but admin.

What is hard to explain to trading standards is the size of this fee, or where they have stripped out payment fees this year. 

When it was introduced in 2016, the c. 0.5% cut in payments costs meant City were likely paying under 1% per transaction.

£1 on a £30 ticket is 3.3%. Big difference. As of this year the cost of c.1% (often less) cannot be passed on to consumers. 

So City charge c. 3% per booking, which is unchanged following this law. Where have they stripped out that payment fee?

 

Cost Breakdown

  • BOOKING FEE (£1 Per Ticket)
    • Payments cost (illegal to pass on): c. 0.8% so on a £30 ticket = 24p
    • Admin cost: 1min (worst case) to print ticket/put in envelope on a  £20k salary = 17p
    • = REAL COST TOTAL 41p FIXED REGARDLESS OF TICKET NUMBERS (of which 24p illegal to pass on)
  • POSTAGE (£1 Per Order)
    • First class stamp = 65p maximum (likely less as franked)
    • Envelope = c. 2p / nominal
    • = REAL COST TOTAL 67p (maximum)

Are City really willing to make a 33% margin on every order for postage, and a MINIMUM 60% margin per order on tickets?

Well, as annoying and downright deceptive as it is, apparently they're not. They're passing on the middle man charge too...

 

The Truth

You have to dig around on the web to find Andrew Billingham commenting on this in a Group statement from Bristol Sport.

This isn't on City's website, but was published on the Bristol Sport and Flyers website in 2016 when the fee was introduced.

“The booking fee of £1 per ticket is only a percentage of what the business incurs from the software provider ... we get charged by the software company, whatever the transaction, be it in person, over the phone or online ... Naturally we could remove it and inflate ticket prices accordingly however I feel this would be to the detriment of fans because the club could then be accused of stealth taxes rather than being upfront and honest about the costs we incur by running state-of-the-art software."

So there you have it - City's £1 per ticket booking fee is not simply the payment cost but the fee from the ticketing platform.

Platform fees are relatively common (think: Ebay) but the seller usually pays - after all it's a platform procured by the seller.

 

What this means is they've signed up to use a third party platform at an all-in-cost which is extortionate to their consumers.

So instead of investing in a critical piece of infrastructure, they accepted it on the basis that City fans would be paying for it.

The platform in question is SRO from TopTix (now owned by SeatGeek), charging £1-£1.50 per ticket is their revenue model. 

From all the usability issues related on here, I would argue whether it is "state of the art" - that's certainly not my impression.
 

NONETHELESS, here's the issue: when City procured this, they obviously bet on traditional payment surcharging as a cover.

Now surcharging is legally and morally dubious, they're left apparently powerless, and we're continuously picking up the bill.

At the very least, SeatGeek/TopTix are no less accountable for the charges they're passing on - but City are their customer.

 

Open Letter To Bristol Sport

Over to you City - what are you doing about it? (@Matt Parsons BCFCSLO feel free to forward this verbatim to Bristol Sport).

All I will say is loyalty only goes so far and City need to be very careful, as the spirit of recent laws was to remove such fees.

That goal has not been achieved and the OFT would no doubt be interested in a business model that is doing the opposite.

 

Supporters have no control over Bristol Sport procurement and should not be accountable for the cost of systems they use.

Buying tickets is a basic function of being a "supporter" and fans should not be made to pay for Bristol Sport infrastructure.  

cc @Blagdon red @Dollymarie

 

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BRISTOL86

BRISTOL86

Posted
Posted

Has the capital cost, and ongoing support and maintenance cost of implementing an online ticketing infrastructure been factored into this at all? I imagine there are a lot more staffing costs in operating such a system than you outline (one person to print tickets and stuff envelopes)  

I don’t particularly agree with booking fees but I expect it drastically changes the sums. 

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Monkeh

Monkeh

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, bristolcitysweden said:

Biggest problem as  groundhopper is that you  on top of the ticket fee etc. need to become a member pretty much doubling the cost 

Membership is only worth it if you go to more then 4 games 

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bristolcitysweden

bristolcitysweden

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Membership is only worth it if you go to more then 4 games 

Yes. Speaking ground hopping in general. As the Sheffield W game is on a Sun we are considering Saints v Chelsea on the Sat (should it not be moved to Sunday us heading FGR). To get tickets we are likely to have to become Saints members doubling our cost 

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Pezo

Pezo

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

The “booking fee” or admin fee should already be included in the price of the ticket and not be a separate fee,

its a rip off and it has to stop, the club has no defense in this respect 

So your saying that no one would complain if a ticket turned up saying £33 when they had paid £34? The club doesn't control the cost of a ticket but it does have the cost of sale.

But I do agree the booking fee is misaligned to costs. 

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Blagdon red

Blagdon red

Posted
  • SC&T Board Members
Posted

@Olé

Looks like I may be out of touch on this one. Are they now charging a £1 fee on ALL ticket purchases? I recall that two years ago we got them to backtrack on this and (a) NOT charge the fee on 'load to card' or 'print at home' tickets and (b) for all other tickets to show the fee in the headline price that they advertise.

Is that no longer the case?

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Monkeh

Monkeh

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Pezo said:

So your saying that no one would complain if a ticket turned up saying £33 when they had paid £34? The club doesn't control the cost of a ticket but it does have the cost of sale. 

No the added £1 shouldnt even exist ticket price should be what it’s advertised 

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Pezo

Pezo

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

No the added £1 shouldnt even exist ticket price should be what it’s advertised 

Which goes to the away team as far as I'm aware so who pays for Bristol sports costs? You can't buy away tickets from away clubs as far as I'm aware so the cost can't be absorbed into the ticket price. 

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Fatalist

Fatalist

Posted
Posted

This is getting like Monty Python: 

Banker: Now, you were saying. I'm very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very rich.

Mr Ford: So er, how about a pound?

Banker: A pound. Yes, I see. Now this loan would be secured by the...

Mr Ford: It's not a loan, sir.

Banker: What?

Mr Ford: It's not a loan.

Banker: Ah.

Mr Ford: You get one of these, sir. (he gives him a flag)

Banker: It's a bit small for a share certificate isn't it? Look, I think I'd better run this over to our legal department. If you could possibly pop back on Friday...

Mr Ford: Well do you have to do that, couldn't you just give me the pound?

Banker: Yes, but you see I don't know what it's for.

Mr Ford: It's for the orphans.

Banker: Yes?

Mr Ford: It's a gift.

Banker: A what?

Mr Ford: A gift.

Banker: Oh a gift!

Mr Ford: Yes.

Banker: A tax dodge.

Mr Ford: No, no, no, no.

Banker: No? Well, I'm awfully sorry I don't understand. Can you just explain exactly what you want.

Mr Ford: Well, I want you to give me a pound, and then I go away and give it to the orphans.

Banker: Yes?

Mr Ford: Well, that's it.

Banker: No, no, no, I don't follow this at all, I mean, I don't want to seem stupid but it looks to me as though I'm a pound down on the whole deal.

 

 

 

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Frenchay Red

Frenchay Red

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, Blagdon red said:

@Olé

Looks like I may be out of touch on this one. Are they now charging a £1 fee on ALL ticket purchases? I recall that two years ago we got them to backtrack on this and (a) NOT charge the fee on 'load to card' or 'print at home' tickets and (b) for all other tickets to show the fee in the headline price that they advertise.

Is that no longer the case?

I only paid £5 for my wrinkly Plymouth ticket, which I printed at home. No fee was charged.

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Bar BS3

Bar BS3

Posted
Posted

I get as annoyed as many by bookings fees, but it’s certainly not just a Bristol Sport thing. 

I often see as much as £3.50 added to theatre or concert tickets. 

I think Bristol sport actually have done all they can on Home tickets and include any fees, except postage, but you can print st home for free. 

It’s only the away tickets, where the ticket price goes to the Home club. Perhaps City should absorb the cost of processing away ticket purchases, but that would cost them thousands, rather than a few quid individually for those that want them. 

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The Fat Controller

The Fat Controller

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I get as annoyed as many by bookings fees, but it’s certainly not just a Bristol Sport thing. 

I often see as much as £3.50 added to theatre or concert tickets. 

I think Bristol sport actually have done all they can on Home tickets and include any fees, except postage, but you can print st home for free. 

It’s only the away tickets, where the ticket price goes to the Home club. Perhaps City should absorb the cost of processing away ticket purchases, but that would cost them thousands, rather than a few quid individually for those that want them. 

£3.65 on £22 worth of theatre tickets recently.

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Olé

Olé

Posted
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55 minutes ago, Blagdon red said:

@Olé

Looks like I may be out of touch on this one. Are they now charging a £1 fee on ALL ticket purchases? I recall that two years ago we got them to backtrack on this and (a) NOT charge the fee on 'load to card' or 'print at home' tickets and (b) for all other tickets to show the fee in the headline price that they advertise.

Is that no longer the case?

Hi mate, yes they don't charge for load to card or print at home - which is definitely a concession on their part and good work by you guys to secure this.

Nonetheless the world at large is moving towards not surcharging at all, and the continued size of these fees in all other cases remains a massive issue.

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BRISTOL86

BRISTOL86

Posted
Posted

Regarding the now outlawed credit card charges, all this has actually done - in the main - is push up the base costs of goods and services in line with how much merchants expect to get hit. 

By and large companies aren’t going to absorb extra costs due to legislative changes, they’ll just wrap them up in the cost of the goods, so hardly the win for consumers that it was portrayed as. 

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The Bard

The Bard

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Olé said:

I posted about this a few weeks ago in this thread: Bolton away tickets and @Matt Parsons BCFCSLO very kindly agreed to look into this at City.

Seeing it come up again since on here and Twitter for those booking Swansea, I decided to put together the facts and an analysis of City's costs.

As you see down the bottom, the truth about these fees is convoluted, nor in the spirit of recent laws, so I include an open letter to Bristol Sport.

 

Current Status

  • City charge a £1 "booking fee" for each individual ticket (home/away) purchased.
  • This applies whether you buy online or in person, or if they are posted or collected.
  • City charge a £1 "postage" fee per overall ticket order (sent first class letter mail). 
  • This only applies if tickets are posted. Those in Bristol can avoid it by collecting.

 

Why This Matters

  • Online booking is significantly cheaper for Bristol Sport vs telephone/in person but no savings are then offered
  • Booking and postage charges are excessive and not real terms costs for Bristol Sport to provide these services
  • Booking charges are uncapped, so - for example - buying six tickets together for an away game incurs a £6 fee 
  • The government has legislated to stop this kind of excessive charging of consumers for making ticket bookings
  • Elements of Bristol Sport's costs for processing ticket bookings have reduced substantially in the past few years
  • As of January this year, it became illegal for Bristol Sport to pass on some of this processing cost to consumers
  • The club insist a booking fee does not relate to payment yet it applies not to where you bought but how you paid 

Why This Matters (Bonus Entry)

  • Other Championship clubs sponsor away fans going away while Bristol Sport are ripping off City fans who do so

 

History Lesson (via my prior Bristol Sport email receipts & experience of the industry)

  • 2015/16 season - City did not charge any booking fee for online card payments (using the same processor as today)
  • 2016 - EU wide law came into force capping underlying cost of card payments, reducing them by average of 0.5%
  • 2016/17 season - City introduce a booking fee of £1 per ticket purchased 
  • 2017/18 season - City maintain the booking fee of £1 per ticket purchased
  • 2018 - EU wide law came into force that made it illegal to pass any of the cost of card payments onto consumers
  • 2018/19 season - City maintain the booking fee of £1 per ticket purchased

City claim it is a "booking fee" which realistically and traditionally most would associate with the payment they are taking.

Now that this has been deemed illegal, City are falling back on the wording and claiming booking isn't payment but admin.

What is hard to explain to trading standards is the size of this fee, or where they have stripped out payment fees this year. 

When it was introduced in 2016, the c. 0.5% cut in payments costs meant City were likely paying under 1% per transaction.

£1 on a £30 ticket is 3.3%. Big difference. As of this year the cost of c.1% (often less) cannot be passed on to consumers. 

So City charge c. 3% per booking, which is unchanged following this law. Where have they stripped out that payment fee?

 

Cost Breakdown

  • BOOKING FEE (£1 Per Ticket)
    • Payments cost (illegal to pass on): c. 0.8% so on a £30 ticket = 24p
    • Admin cost: 1min (worst case) to print ticket/put in envelope on a  £20k salary = 17p
    • = REAL COST TOTAL 41p FIXED REGARDLESS OF TICKET NUMBERS (of which 24p illegal to pass on)
  • POSTAGE (£1 Per Order)
    • First class stamp = 65p maximum (likely less as franked)
    • Envelope = c. 2p / nominal
    • = REAL COST TOTAL 67p (maximum)

Are City really willing to make a 33% margin on every order for postage, and a MINIMUM 60% margin per order on tickets?

Well, as annoying and downright deceptive as it is, apparently they're not. They're passing on the middle man charge too...

 

The Truth

You have to dig around on the web to find Andrew Billingham commenting on this in a Group statement from Bristol Sport.

This isn't on City's website, but was published on the Bristol Sport and Flyers website in 2016 when the fee was introduced.

“The booking fee of £1 per ticket is only a percentage of what the business incurs from the software provider ... we get charged by the software company, whatever the transaction, be it in person, over the phone or online ... Naturally we could remove it and inflate ticket prices accordingly however I feel this would be to the detriment of fans because the club could then be accused of stealth taxes rather than being upfront and honest about the costs we incur by running state-of-the-art software."

So there you have it - City's £1 per ticket booking fee is not simply the payment cost but the fee from the ticketing platform.

Platform fees are relatively common (think: Ebay) but the seller usually pays - after all it's a platform procured by the seller.

 

What this means is they've signed up to use a third party platform at an all-in-cost which is extortionate to their consumers.

So instead of investing in a critical piece of infrastructure, they accepted it on the basis that City fans would be paying for it.

The platform in question is SRO from TopTix (now owned by SeatGeek), charging £1-£1.50 per ticket is their revenue model. 

From all the usability issues related on here, I would argue whether it is "state of the art" - that's certainly not my impression.
 

NONETHELESS, here's the issue: when City procured this, they obviously bet on traditional payment surcharging as a cover.

Now surcharging is legally and morally dubious, they're left apparently powerless, and we're continuously picking up the bill.

At the very least, SeatGeek/TopTix are no less accountable for the charges they're passing on - but City are their customer.

 

Open Letter To Bristol Sport

Over to you City - what are you doing about it? (@Matt Parsons BCFCSLO feel free to forward this verbatim to Bristol Sport).

All I will say is loyalty only goes so far and City need to be very careful, as the spirit of recent laws was to remove such fees.

That goal has not been achieved and the OFT would no doubt be interested in a business model that is doing the opposite.

 

Supporters have no control over Bristol Sport procurement and should not be accountable for the cost of systems they use.

Buying tickets is a basic function of being a "supporter" and fans should not be made to pay for Bristol Sport infrastructure.  

cc @Blagdon red @Dollymarie

 

An outstanding post.  Well researched, rigorous and hitting the nail on the head.  

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Scrumpy Dziek

Scrumpy Dziek

Posted
Posted

Do we get commission for selling away tickets from the home club?

From the EFL rules/regulations, https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/section-5--fixtures/

34.2.3 For League Matches only, the Away Club shall be entitled to a commission representing 5 (five) per cent of the aggregate sales (exclusive of VAT) of tickets sold on behalf of the Home Club, unless otherwise agreed between the Clubs. The Away Club shall submit a VAT invoice, in respect of the commission due, to the Home Club within five working days of the date of the match taking place.

34.2.4 The Away Club may charge a booking fee or transaction charge to the customer providing this is exactly the same in every respect as that which it charges for tickets to its own home matches.

 

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ChippenhamRed

ChippenhamRed

Posted
Posted

Great post from @Olé but I do think a few things need to be clarified here.

When the booking fee issue arose a couple of seasons back, the problem was that the headline price being advertised was not inclusive of all fees. This is no longer the issue. I’ve just bought tickets for Saturday and the price was actually £1 cheaper per ticket than the official ticket prices stated here...

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/tickets-memberships/matchday-prices/

...because I chose to load to card. So in that respect, the club get some credit.

I do also think that Ole’s post should  be corrected to state explicitly that you don’t have to live in Bristol to avoid the cost; there is also the print at home option.

The issue, I think, is whether they should be charging a fee at all in light of recent legislation. Frankly I don’t understand why the club can’t just charge 50p more (for arguments sake) on all tickets as part of the ticket price and have done with it. Why does the processing cost need to be declared separately? (genuine question for someone). It’s a needless complication and leaves the club open to the very valid criticism being made here.

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