Olé Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 I posted about this a few weeks ago in this thread: Bolton away tickets and @Matt Parsons BCFCSLO very kindly agreed to look into this at City. Seeing it come up again since on here and Twitter for those booking Swansea, I decided to put together the facts and an analysis of City's costs. As you see down the bottom, the truth about these fees is convoluted, nor in the spirit of recent laws, so I include an open letter to Bristol Sport. Current Status City charge a £1 "booking fee" for each individual ticket (home/away) purchased. This applies whether you buy online or in person, or if they are posted or collected. City charge a £1 "postage" fee per overall ticket order (sent first class letter mail). This only applies if tickets are posted. Those in Bristol can avoid it by collecting. Why This Matters Online booking is significantly cheaper for Bristol Sport vs telephone/in person but no savings are then offered Booking and postage charges are excessive and not real terms costs for Bristol Sport to provide these services Booking charges are uncapped, so - for example - buying six tickets together for an away game incurs a £6 fee The government has legislated to stop this kind of excessive charging of consumers for making ticket bookings Elements of Bristol Sport's costs for processing ticket bookings have reduced substantially in the past few years As of January this year, it became illegal for Bristol Sport to pass on some of this processing cost to consumers The club insist a booking fee does not relate to payment yet it applies not to where you bought but how you paid Why This Matters (Bonus Entry) Other Championship clubs sponsor away fans going away while Bristol Sport are ripping off City fans who do so History Lesson (via my prior Bristol Sport email receipts & experience of the industry) 2015/16 season - City did not charge any booking fee for online card payments (using the same processor as today) 2016 - EU wide law came into force capping underlying cost of card payments, reducing them by average of 0.5% 2016/17 season - City introduce a booking fee of £1 per ticket purchased 2017/18 season - City maintain the booking fee of £1 per ticket purchased 2018 - EU wide law came into force that made it illegal to pass any of the cost of card payments onto consumers 2018/19 season - City maintain the booking fee of £1 per ticket purchased City claim it is a "booking fee" which realistically and traditionally most would associate with the payment they are taking. Now that this has been deemed illegal, City are falling back on the wording and claiming booking isn't payment but admin. What is hard to explain to trading standards is the size of this fee, or where they have stripped out payment fees this year. When it was introduced in 2016, the c. 0.5% cut in payments costs meant City were likely paying under 1% per transaction. £1 on a £30 ticket is 3.3%. Big difference. As of this year the cost of c.1% (often less) cannot be passed on to consumers. So City charge c. 3% per booking, which is unchanged following this law. Where have they stripped out that payment fee? Cost Breakdown BOOKING FEE (£1 Per Ticket) Payments cost (illegal to pass on): c. 0.8% so on a £30 ticket = 24p Admin cost: 1min (worst case) to print ticket/put in envelope on a £20k salary = 17p = REAL COST TOTAL 41p FIXED REGARDLESS OF TICKET NUMBERS (of which 24p illegal to pass on) POSTAGE (£1 Per Order) First class stamp = 65p maximum (likely less as franked) Envelope = c. 2p / nominal = REAL COST TOTAL 67p (maximum) Are City really willing to make a 33% margin on every order for postage, and a MINIMUM 60% margin per order on tickets? Well, as annoying and downright deceptive as it is, apparently they're not. They're passing on the middle man charge too... The Truth You have to dig around on the web to find Andrew Billingham commenting on this in a Group statement from Bristol Sport. This isn't on City's website, but was published on the Bristol Sport and Flyers website in 2016 when the fee was introduced. “The booking fee of £1 per ticket is only a percentage of what the business incurs from the software provider ... we get charged by the software company, whatever the transaction, be it in person, over the phone or online ... Naturally we could remove it and inflate ticket prices accordingly however I feel this would be to the detriment of fans because the club could then be accused of stealth taxes rather than being upfront and honest about the costs we incur by running state-of-the-art software." So there you have it - City's £1 per ticket booking fee is not simply the payment cost but the fee from the ticketing platform. Platform fees are relatively common (think: Ebay) but the seller usually pays - after all it's a platform procured by the seller. What this means is they've signed up to use a third party platform at an all-in-cost which is extortionate to their consumers. So instead of investing in a critical piece of infrastructure, they accepted it on the basis that City fans would be paying for it. The platform in question is SRO from TopTix (now owned by SeatGeek), charging £1-£1.50 per ticket is their revenue model. From all the usability issues related on here, I would argue whether it is "state of the art" - that's certainly not my impression. NONETHELESS, here's the issue: when City procured this, they obviously bet on traditional payment surcharging as a cover. Now surcharging is legally and morally dubious, they're left apparently powerless, and we're continuously picking up the bill. At the very least, SeatGeek/TopTix are no less accountable for the charges they're passing on - but City are their customer. Open Letter To Bristol Sport Over to you City - what are you doing about it? (@Matt Parsons BCFCSLO feel free to forward this verbatim to Bristol Sport). All I will say is loyalty only goes so far and City need to be very careful, as the spirit of recent laws was to remove such fees. That goal has not been achieved and the OFT would no doubt be interested in a business model that is doing the opposite. Supporters have no control over Bristol Sport procurement and should not be accountable for the cost of systems they use. Buying tickets is a basic function of being a "supporter" and fans should not be made to pay for Bristol Sport infrastructure. cc @Blagdon red @Dollymarie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unan Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 RIP BCFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRISTOL86 Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 Has the capital cost, and ongoing support and maintenance cost of implementing an online ticketing infrastructure been factored into this at all? I imagine there are a lot more staffing costs in operating such a system than you outline (one person to print tickets and stuff envelopes) I don’t particularly agree with booking fees but I expect it drastically changes the sums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 The “booking fee” or admin fee should already be included in the price of the ticket and not be a separate fee, its a rip off and it has to stop, the club has no defense in this respect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 Biggest problem as groundhopper is that you on top of the ticket fee etc. need to become a member pretty much doubling the cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 1 minute ago, bristolcitysweden said: Biggest problem as groundhopper is that you on top of the ticket fee etc. need to become a member pretty much doubling the cost Membership is only worth it if you go to more then 4 games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 5 minutes ago, Monkeh said: Membership is only worth it if you go to more then 4 games Yes. Speaking ground hopping in general. As the Sheffield W game is on a Sun we are considering Saints v Chelsea on the Sat (should it not be moved to Sunday us heading FGR). To get tickets we are likely to have to become Saints members doubling our cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 Sucks but theme the breaks I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezo Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 10 minutes ago, Monkeh said: The “booking fee” or admin fee should already be included in the price of the ticket and not be a separate fee, its a rip off and it has to stop, the club has no defense in this respect So your saying that no one would complain if a ticket turned up saying £33 when they had paid £34? The club doesn't control the cost of a ticket but it does have the cost of sale. But I do agree the booking fee is misaligned to costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC&T Board Members Blagdon red Posted August 1, 2018 SC&T Board Members Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 @Olé Looks like I may be out of touch on this one. Are they now charging a £1 fee on ALL ticket purchases? I recall that two years ago we got them to backtrack on this and (a) NOT charge the fee on 'load to card' or 'print at home' tickets and (b) for all other tickets to show the fee in the headline price that they advertise. Is that no longer the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 1 minute ago, Pezo said: So your saying that no one would complain if a ticket turned up saying £33 when they had paid £34? The club doesn't control the cost of a ticket but it does have the cost of sale. No the added £1 shouldnt even exist ticket price should be what it’s advertised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezo Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 1 minute ago, Monkeh said: No the added £1 shouldnt even exist ticket price should be what it’s advertised Which goes to the away team as far as I'm aware so who pays for Bristol sports costs? You can't buy away tickets from away clubs as far as I'm aware so the cost can't be absorbed into the ticket price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatalist Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 This is getting like Monty Python: Banker: Now, you were saying. I'm very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very rich. Mr Ford: So er, how about a pound? Banker: A pound. Yes, I see. Now this loan would be secured by the... Mr Ford: It's not a loan, sir. Banker: What? Mr Ford: It's not a loan. Banker: Ah. Mr Ford: You get one of these, sir. (he gives him a flag) Banker: It's a bit small for a share certificate isn't it? Look, I think I'd better run this over to our legal department. If you could possibly pop back on Friday... Mr Ford: Well do you have to do that, couldn't you just give me the pound? Banker: Yes, but you see I don't know what it's for. Mr Ford: It's for the orphans. Banker: Yes? Mr Ford: It's a gift. Banker: A what? Mr Ford: A gift. Banker: Oh a gift! Mr Ford: Yes. Banker: A tax dodge. Mr Ford: No, no, no, no. Banker: No? Well, I'm awfully sorry I don't understand. Can you just explain exactly what you want. Mr Ford: Well, I want you to give me a pound, and then I go away and give it to the orphans. Banker: Yes? Mr Ford: Well, that's it. Banker: No, no, no, I don't follow this at all, I mean, I don't want to seem stupid but it looks to me as though I'm a pound down on the whole deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 19 minutes ago, Blagdon red said: @Olé Looks like I may be out of touch on this one. Are they now charging a £1 fee on ALL ticket purchases? I recall that two years ago we got them to backtrack on this and (a) NOT charge the fee on 'load to card' or 'print at home' tickets and (b) for all other tickets to show the fee in the headline price that they advertise. Is that no longer the case? I only paid £5 for my wrinkly Plymouth ticket, which I printed at home. No fee was charged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selred Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 Just checked my emails. I had no booking or ticket fees for my actual tickets for Middlesbrough Game (e-tickets). I did have a £1 booking fee and £1 postage fee for my Forever Bristol membership Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, Selred said: Just checked my emails. I had no booking or ticket fees for my actual tickets for Middlesbrough Game (e-tickets). I did have a £1 booking fee and £1 postage fee for my Forever Bristol membership Boro away ..?l Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bar BS3 Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 27 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said: I only paid £5 for my wrinkly Plymouth ticket, which I printed at home. No fee was charged. It’s only on away tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bar BS3 Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 I get as annoyed as many by bookings fees, but it’s certainly not just a Bristol Sport thing. I often see as much as £3.50 added to theatre or concert tickets. I think Bristol sport actually have done all they can on Home tickets and include any fees, except postage, but you can print st home for free. It’s only the away tickets, where the ticket price goes to the Home club. Perhaps City should absorb the cost of processing away ticket purchases, but that would cost them thousands, rather than a few quid individually for those that want them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selred Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 16 minutes ago, Vincent Vega said: Boro away ..?l Home. Was £1 per ticket for Watford away last season though, for booking fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said: It’s only on away tickets. Ah, ok. Yeah, I recall that when we played Blackburn away, season before last, I saved a quid by paying on the day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, Selred said: Home. Was £1 per ticket for Watford away last season though, for booking fee. Yeah, it's only for away tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Controller Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said: I get as annoyed as many by bookings fees, but it’s certainly not just a Bristol Sport thing. I often see as much as £3.50 added to theatre or concert tickets. I think Bristol sport actually have done all they can on Home tickets and include any fees, except postage, but you can print st home for free. It’s only the away tickets, where the ticket price goes to the Home club. Perhaps City should absorb the cost of processing away ticket purchases, but that would cost them thousands, rather than a few quid individually for those that want them. £3.65 on £22 worth of theatre tickets recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olé Posted August 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 55 minutes ago, Blagdon red said: @Olé Looks like I may be out of touch on this one. Are they now charging a £1 fee on ALL ticket purchases? I recall that two years ago we got them to backtrack on this and (a) NOT charge the fee on 'load to card' or 'print at home' tickets and (b) for all other tickets to show the fee in the headline price that they advertise. Is that no longer the case? Hi mate, yes they don't charge for load to card or print at home - which is definitely a concession on their part and good work by you guys to secure this. Nonetheless the world at large is moving towards not surcharging at all, and the continued size of these fees in all other cases remains a massive issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRISTOL86 Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 Regarding the now outlawed credit card charges, all this has actually done - in the main - is push up the base costs of goods and services in line with how much merchants expect to get hit. By and large companies aren’t going to absorb extra costs due to legislative changes, they’ll just wrap them up in the cost of the goods, so hardly the win for consumers that it was portrayed as. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 4 hours ago, Olé said: I posted about this a few weeks ago in this thread: Bolton away tickets and @Matt Parsons BCFCSLO very kindly agreed to look into this at City. Seeing it come up again since on here and Twitter for those booking Swansea, I decided to put together the facts and an analysis of City's costs. As you see down the bottom, the truth about these fees is convoluted, nor in the spirit of recent laws, so I include an open letter to Bristol Sport. Current Status City charge a £1 "booking fee" for each individual ticket (home/away) purchased. This applies whether you buy online or in person, or if they are posted or collected. City charge a £1 "postage" fee per overall ticket order (sent first class letter mail). This only applies if tickets are posted. Those in Bristol can avoid it by collecting. Why This Matters Online booking is significantly cheaper for Bristol Sport vs telephone/in person but no savings are then offered Booking and postage charges are excessive and not real terms costs for Bristol Sport to provide these services Booking charges are uncapped, so - for example - buying six tickets together for an away game incurs a £6 fee The government has legislated to stop this kind of excessive charging of consumers for making ticket bookings Elements of Bristol Sport's costs for processing ticket bookings have reduced substantially in the past few years As of January this year, it became illegal for Bristol Sport to pass on some of this processing cost to consumers The club insist a booking fee does not relate to payment yet it applies not to where you bought but how you paid Why This Matters (Bonus Entry) Other Championship clubs sponsor away fans going away while Bristol Sport are ripping off City fans who do so History Lesson (via my prior Bristol Sport email receipts & experience of the industry) 2015/16 season - City did not charge any booking fee for online card payments (using the same processor as today) 2016 - EU wide law came into force capping underlying cost of card payments, reducing them by average of 0.5% 2016/17 season - City introduce a booking fee of £1 per ticket purchased 2017/18 season - City maintain the booking fee of £1 per ticket purchased 2018 - EU wide law came into force that made it illegal to pass any of the cost of card payments onto consumers 2018/19 season - City maintain the booking fee of £1 per ticket purchased City claim it is a "booking fee" which realistically and traditionally most would associate with the payment they are taking. Now that this has been deemed illegal, City are falling back on the wording and claiming booking isn't payment but admin. What is hard to explain to trading standards is the size of this fee, or where they have stripped out payment fees this year. When it was introduced in 2016, the c. 0.5% cut in payments costs meant City were likely paying under 1% per transaction. £1 on a £30 ticket is 3.3%. Big difference. As of this year the cost of c.1% (often less) cannot be passed on to consumers. So City charge c. 3% per booking, which is unchanged following this law. Where have they stripped out that payment fee? Cost Breakdown BOOKING FEE (£1 Per Ticket) Payments cost (illegal to pass on): c. 0.8% so on a £30 ticket = 24p Admin cost: 1min (worst case) to print ticket/put in envelope on a £20k salary = 17p = REAL COST TOTAL 41p FIXED REGARDLESS OF TICKET NUMBERS (of which 24p illegal to pass on) POSTAGE (£1 Per Order) First class stamp = 65p maximum (likely less as franked) Envelope = c. 2p / nominal = REAL COST TOTAL 67p (maximum) Are City really willing to make a 33% margin on every order for postage, and a MINIMUM 60% margin per order on tickets? Well, as annoying and downright deceptive as it is, apparently they're not. They're passing on the middle man charge too... The Truth You have to dig around on the web to find Andrew Billingham commenting on this in a Group statement from Bristol Sport. This isn't on City's website, but was published on the Bristol Sport and Flyers website in 2016 when the fee was introduced. “The booking fee of £1 per ticket is only a percentage of what the business incurs from the software provider ... we get charged by the software company, whatever the transaction, be it in person, over the phone or online ... Naturally we could remove it and inflate ticket prices accordingly however I feel this would be to the detriment of fans because the club could then be accused of stealth taxes rather than being upfront and honest about the costs we incur by running state-of-the-art software." So there you have it - City's £1 per ticket booking fee is not simply the payment cost but the fee from the ticketing platform. Platform fees are relatively common (think: Ebay) but the seller usually pays - after all it's a platform procured by the seller. What this means is they've signed up to use a third party platform at an all-in-cost which is extortionate to their consumers. So instead of investing in a critical piece of infrastructure, they accepted it on the basis that City fans would be paying for it. The platform in question is SRO from TopTix (now owned by SeatGeek), charging £1-£1.50 per ticket is their revenue model. From all the usability issues related on here, I would argue whether it is "state of the art" - that's certainly not my impression. NONETHELESS, here's the issue: when City procured this, they obviously bet on traditional payment surcharging as a cover. Now surcharging is legally and morally dubious, they're left apparently powerless, and we're continuously picking up the bill. At the very least, SeatGeek/TopTix are no less accountable for the charges they're passing on - but City are their customer. Open Letter To Bristol Sport Over to you City - what are you doing about it? (@Matt Parsons BCFCSLO feel free to forward this verbatim to Bristol Sport). All I will say is loyalty only goes so far and City need to be very careful, as the spirit of recent laws was to remove such fees. That goal has not been achieved and the OFT would no doubt be interested in a business model that is doing the opposite. Supporters have no control over Bristol Sport procurement and should not be accountable for the cost of systems they use. Buying tickets is a basic function of being a "supporter" and fans should not be made to pay for Bristol Sport infrastructure. cc @Blagdon red @Dollymarie An outstanding post. Well researched, rigorous and hitting the nail on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrumpy Dziek Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 Do we get commission for selling away tickets from the home club? From the EFL rules/regulations, https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/section-5--fixtures/ 34.2.3 For League Matches only, the Away Club shall be entitled to a commission representing 5 (five) per cent of the aggregate sales (exclusive of VAT) of tickets sold on behalf of the Home Club, unless otherwise agreed between the Clubs. The Away Club shall submit a VAT invoice, in respect of the commission due, to the Home Club within five working days of the date of the match taking place. 34.2.4 The Away Club may charge a booking fee or transaction charge to the customer providing this is exactly the same in every respect as that which it charges for tickets to its own home matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City fan 1982 Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 Silence is golden ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyTonyTony Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 Wow. Lots of effort put in to save a quid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChippenhamRed Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 Great post from @Olé but I do think a few things need to be clarified here. When the booking fee issue arose a couple of seasons back, the problem was that the headline price being advertised was not inclusive of all fees. This is no longer the issue. I’ve just bought tickets for Saturday and the price was actually £1 cheaper per ticket than the official ticket prices stated here... https://www.bcfc.co.uk/tickets-memberships/matchday-prices/ ...because I chose to load to card. So in that respect, the club get some credit. I do also think that Ole’s post should be corrected to state explicitly that you don’t have to live in Bristol to avoid the cost; there is also the print at home option. The issue, I think, is whether they should be charging a fee at all in light of recent legislation. Frankly I don’t understand why the club can’t just charge 50p more (for arguments sake) on all tickets as part of the ticket price and have done with it. Why does the processing cost need to be declared separately? (genuine question for someone). It’s a needless complication and leaves the club open to the very valid criticism being made here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcliffe1990 Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 Excellent research there, I commend your effort @Olé. We would all do well to back up our wants and desires for the club with solid hard investigative research. Club should be held accountable when necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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