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Red34

#FabulousOwnership

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Apologies if already posted before.

This was highlighted in yesterday's Post:

SL converted another £18.4 million to shares last season, so we don't breach FFP (most likely).

Firstly quite amusing the CFO's post (imagine he loves having SL :laugh: - "Steve we need some money") and secondly I'm shocked we lost so much in such a successful season!

Particularly with players sales you'd expect we might actually make a profit, but maybe this is just removing some existing debt?

Either way I'm still very, very glad we have SL...

Edited by Red34
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2 hours ago, Red34 said:

Apologies if already posted before.

This was highlighted in yesterday's Post:

SL converted another £18.4 million to shares last season, so we don't breach FFP (most likely).

Firstly quite amusing the CFO's post (imagine he loves having SL :laugh: - "Steve we need some money") and secondly I'm shocked we lost so much in such a successful season!

Agree @Red34 figures are concerning especially all the extra money we got from the league cup run and many games on Sky etc

What is more concerning is we invested in crap in January so where did the money go?

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I had a childish amusing thought of the annual budgetary review and MA shifting uncomfortably in his chair as they reach the subjects of Engvall and Duric 

Amongst lots of nervous shuffling , Big sigh from Steve as he removes his Coutts cheque book and Fountain pen from his jacket pocket says ‘How much’ 

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19 minutes ago, phantom said:

Agree @Red34 figures are concerning especially all the extra money we got from the league cup run and many games on Sky etc

What is more concerning is we invested in crap in January so where did the money go?

League Cup prize money is very insubstantial.

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The current situation, i.e. losing the core of your team in one summer, and therefore needing a huge round of recruitment and bedding in etc. is really really poor management. However, in my opinion this doesn't sit with SL, who has employed people to run the club day to day, chiefly MA. Pouring more cash in is hugely significant, and should be appreciated.  However if I were SL I would be asking how we let 3 (as a minimum) of our best players get to a point where they wanted/needed to leave in one summer. I really believe this summer has pushed us back 2 years.  

Selling Kodjia, and replacing, was good business and didn't truly affect us. Likewise Tomlin. Needing a whole new spine to the team is crazy, and only should happen to a team in crisis, which I believe we are not. Finishing above 11th this season would be an amazing achievement, which in itself shows how damaging a summer we have had. 

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14 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

League Cup prize money is very insubstantial.

The prize money is but with the additional tickets sold , Sky Money’s , extra sponsorship , half season cards sold it must have netted us a bonus income of seven figures upwards I’d suggest

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6 minutes ago, ciderwithtommy said:

The current situation, i.e. losing the core of your team in one summer, and therefore needing a huge round of recruitment and bedding in etc. is really really poor management. However, in my opinion this doesn't sit with SL, who has employed people to run the club day to day, chiefly MA. Pouring more cash in is hugely significant, and should be appreciated.  However if I were SL I would be asking how we let 3 (as a minimum) of our best players get to a point where they wanted/needed to leave in one summer. I really believe this summer has pushed us back 2 years.  

Selling Kodjia, and replacing, was good business and didn't truly affect us. Likewise Tomlin. Needing a whole new spine to the team is crazy, and only should happen to a team in crisis, which I believe we are not. Finishing above 11th this season would be an amazing achievement, which in itself shows how damaging a summer we have had. 

I disagree. 

Flint had signed a new contract, presumably with a buy out clause figure written in. 

Reid & Bryan both offered new contracts which they wouldn’t sign, so the only option is to cash in on them. 

All 3 have left this summer because of their profile rise last season. You could say that “success” is down to good management (team & club) 

Unless you make it to the Prem, every club will always have their best players cherry picked by those with either premier league status or premier league money. 

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6 minutes ago, ciderwithtommy said:

The current situation, i.e. losing the core of your team in one summer, and therefore needing a huge round of recruitment and bedding in etc. is really really poor management.

Not if that's the model you've chosen to follow it isn't.

Selling players at the peak of their value, or at least for the maximum possible when it would be difficult to retain them, is very, very good management.

Assuming that Bryan leaves the club will have received over £20m for three players, who cost £300k in transfer fees and relatively little in wages. Not one of them is irreplaceable. Two have already been replaced with competent Championship players.

Besides that, the core of the team has not been lost. A centre half, a left back, and a striker we didn't even know we had 12 months ago have left. Most of the first XI is the same as it ever was, unless the manager chooses to change things.

Think about all the times in the past when we've held on to our "best" players: Nicky Maynard, Liam Fontaine, Marvin Elliot, Aaron Brown. How many of those sustained the level of performance they were showing when offers came in for them?

Pretty much nobody outside Madrid can keep hold of any player they want when another club comes in. The rest of us either sell at the right time or watch an asset depreciate in front of us.

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Some fans fail to understand how figures like these translate into the 'real world'. Championship football is expensive and in fact ticket, cider and pasty sales barely scratch the surface! The club is doing the right thing in my opinion by selling assets (players) rather than letting them go for nowt. It's frustrating but this will have to continue to sustain football at this level. Those advocating offering 40k per week (2 million per year) to Reid, Flint and Bryan are living in fantasy land IMO!!

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4 minutes ago, BCFC_Dan said:

Not if that's the model you've chosen to follow it isn't.

Selling players at the peak of their value, or at least for the maximum possible when it would be difficult to retain them, is very, very good management.

Assuming that Bryan leaves the club will have received over £20m for three players, who cost £300k in transfer fees and relatively little in wages. Not one of them is irreplaceable. Two have already been replaced with competent Championship players.

Besides that, the core of the team has not been lost. A centre half, a left back, and a striker we didn't even know we had 12 months ago have left. Most of the first XI is the same as it ever was, unless the manager chooses to change things.

Think about all the times in the past when we've held on to our "best" players: Nicky Maynard, Liam Fontaine, Marvin Elliot, Aaron Brown. How many of those sustained the level of performance they were showing when offers came in for them?

Pretty much nobody outside Madrid can keep hold of any player they want when another club comes in. The rest of us either sell at the right time or watch an asset depreciate in front of us.

Well said. People need to realise that EVERY club is a selling club. 

Villa, Derby, Boro....all lost or will lose some of their key players from last season. Because that’s football. That’s what happens. 

There’s about 5 clubs in world football who can say they aren’t selling clubs. 

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5 minutes ago, Scrumpylegs said:

Some fans fail to understand how figures like these translate into the 'real world'. Championship football is expensive and in fact ticket, cider and pasty sales barely scratch the surface! The club is doing the right thing in my opinion by selling assets (players) rather than letting them go for nowt. It's frustrating but this will have to continue to sustain football at this level. Those advocating offering 40k per week (2 million per year) to Reid, Flint and Bryan are living in fantasy land IMO!!

Agreed. I expect most fans don’t even consider that the difference between a player on £10k/w and £25k/w over 3 seasons equates to another c. 8000 season tickets needing to be sold just to break even. On one player. 

Three players on £25k vs £10k on 3 year deals will cost the club c. £10m extra(!)

£10k vs £25k doesn’t sound much when you say it like a weekly figure, but the impact is staggering and as of now we are not in the same galaxy as the likes of Villa etc. 

Edited by BRISTOL86
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23 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

The prize money is but with the additional tickets sold , Sky Money’s , extra sponsorship , half season cards sold it must have netted us a bonus income of seven figures upwards I’d suggest

7 figures, maybe, at a push.

But at the lower end if so.

Ticket revenue I believe is split 3 ways in cup games, 45% per team and the remaining 10% going to the EFL I believe.

https://www.totalsportek.com/money/capital-one-league-cup-prize-money/ (This is from the season before last I think)

As an example, the Plymouth game had an attendance of 9838, and the tickets were cheap. I can't remember the exact price, but for an example let's say the average ticket cost £10.

We got just £44,271 at most from gate receipts and £5000 for winning the first round.

Our total amount of prize money for reaching the Semi finals was £57,000.

So between the prize money we got for the whole tournament, and gate receipts for the first game we have just barely broke 6 figures (£101,271 using an average ticket price of £10).

Of course that's a bit simplified as it doesn't include money from concessions, but I wouldn't be that surprised if our total money from the cup run didn't reach seven digits.

 

Edited by JamesBCFC
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14 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Well said. People need to realise that EVERY club is a selling club. 

Villa, Derby, Boro....all lost or will lose some of their key players from last season. Because that’s football. That’s what happens. 

There’s about 5 clubs in world football who can say they aren’t selling clubs. 

One of which has just lost arguably the best player in the world to Juventus this summer..! 

Football (transfer business) has changed SO much over the last 5 years in particular. It’s staggering just how many people can see it or grasp the reality of what (most) clubs have to do to operate these days and it’s them spouting moronic, ill thought out criticisms that other sheep blindly follow, that make things like social media and even here, frustratingly unbearable at times. 

If you (those people) don’t understand the game or the business aspect of running a football club in these times, then either learn & get educated, don’t comment, or give up..! 

It’s certainly not the club(s) who come across as looking stupid, when people post such ignorant, out dated drivel about how they now have to operate..! 

Edited by Bar BS3
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2 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

7 figures, maybe, at a push.

But at the lower end if so.

Ticket revenue I believe is split 3 ways in cup games, 45% per team and the remaining 10% going to the EFL I believe.

https://www.totalsportek.com/money/capital-one-league-cup-prize-money/ (This is from the season before last I think)

As an example, the Plymouth game had an attendance of 9838, and the tickets were cheap. I can't remember the exact price, but for an example let's say the average ticket cost £10.

We got just £44,271 at most from gate receipts and £5000 for winning the first round.

Our total amount of prize money for reaching the Semi finals was £57,000.

So between the prize money and gate receipts for the first game we have just barely broke 6 figures (£101,271 using an average ticket price of £10).

Of course that's a bit simplified as it doesn't include money from concessions, but I wouldn't be that surprised if our total money from the cup run didn't reach seven digits.

 

Without working it out or researching it but 3 televised Sky games v Manchester Clubs

Plus the Gate receipts from United and the two City games must have got us close to seven figures 

(say 26000 at AG for United ( Average seat price £30 ?) 

Ignoring corporate Thats £780,000 With Approx £350k from gate receipts on that one game alone

Seven figures or not - a nice bonus but not a massive surge in our budget at end of day

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8 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Agreed. I expect most fans don’t even consider that the difference between a player on £10k/w and £25k/w over 3 seasons equates to another c. 8000 season tickets needing to be sold just to break even. On one player. 

Three players on £25k vs £10k on 3 year deals will cost the club c. £10m extra(!)

£10k vs £25k doesn’t sound much when you say it like a weekly figure, but the impact is staggering and as of now we are not in the same galaxy as the likes of Villa etc. 

Umm no it doesn’t..! 3 players earning an extra 15k per week for 3 years equates to £7million. 

However, I completely agree with the gist of what you are saying about people’s lack of understanding, as my previous suggests, people simply don’t seem to understand the reality of running a football club in this day and age. 

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4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Without working it out or researching it but 3 televised Sky games v Manchester Clubs

Plus the Gate receipts from United and the two City games must have got us close to seven figures 

(say 26000 at AG for United ( Average seat price £30 ?) 

Ignoring corporate Thats £780,000 With Approx £350k from gate receipts on that one game alone

Seven figures or not - a nice bonus but not a massive surge in our budget at end of day

Fair point, we should have reached seven figures from the 3 games against the Manchester clubs.

2 home games where we got circa 350k from gate receipts (being on the cautious side, I'd say that would also cover most of the concessional profit too, as the kids tickets would have been less, so concessions making up the difference) in 2 games, plus 45% of the away game where the crowd was about 48k IIRC.

Main point is that the cup run probably brought in quite a bit less than people thought, £57,000 being all we got in prize money, yet we got almost 7x that in ticket revenue from 1 game.

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14 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

7 figures, maybe, at a push.

But at the lower end if so.

Ticket revenue I believe is split 3 ways in cup games, 45% per team and the remaining 10% going to the EFL I believe.

https://www.totalsportek.com/money/capital-one-league-cup-prize-money/ (This is from the season before last I think)

As an example, the Plymouth game had an attendance of 9838, and the tickets were cheap. I can't remember the exact price, but for an example let's say the average ticket cost £10.

We got just £44,271 at most from gate receipts and £5000 for winning the first round.

Our total amount of prize money for reaching the Semi finals was £57,000.

So between the prize money we got for the whole tournament, and gate receipts for the first game we have just barely broke 6 figures (£101,271 using an average ticket price of £10).

Of course that's a bit simplified as it doesn't include money from concessions, but I wouldn't be that surprised if our total money from the cup run didn't reach seven digits.

 

That's mad I had no idea the prize money was so low, makes you think what's even the point? That's nearly nothing in today's football money for the giants that normally progress that far

Edited by Sturny

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1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I had a childish amusing thought of the annual budgetary review and MA shifting uncomfortably in his chair as they reach the subjects of Engvall and Duric 

Amongst lots of nervous shuffling , Big sigh from Steve as he removes his Coutts cheque book and Fountain pen from his jacket pocket says ‘How much’ 

I had a similar thought :laugh: - he probably sits in the budget review each year just going "Look it's fine, just give me the number so I can sign the cheque and get to more interesting stuff"

As for the topic at hand - I'm not really that surprised by us making a loss, was more surprised at how much given the cup run, selling players (if any major ones were in before the budget cut off) and the corporate income from the Gate.

Good job he's not expecting self-sufficiency any time soon - hopefully not until we reach the Premiership (fingers crossed!)

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If I'm brutally honest, the only way we can reach self-sufficiency is in League One if we had ambitions just to stay there, or the PL.

Championship? Swimming against the tide tbh, not only against the tide but trying to do it upstream, rolling a boulder.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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3 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Fair point, we should have reached seven figures from the 3 games against the Manchester clubs.

2 home games where we got circa 350k from gate receipts (being on the cautious side, I'd say that would also cover most of the concessional profit too, as the kids tickets would have been less, so concessions making up the difference) in 2 games, plus 45% of the away game where the crowd was about 48k IIRC.

Main point is that the cup run probably brought in quite a bit less than people thought, £57,000 being all we got in prize money, yet we got almost 7x that in ticket revenue from 1 game.

Again though, this is a case of people making a point without thinking it through..!

Yes, the 3 Manchester games will have been profitable (although tickets for the MC away game were cheap, so income would have been more like a crowd of 20k in reality)

However, how much of the profits made in those games will have been offset against the “losses” on previous rounds..? Ok, Palace was a good attendance, but at only £15 per adult ticket, the 22k crowd would have effectively been no more than 10k. Plymouth was 9/10k at just £10 per ticket. Stoke was 13/14k, again at cheap tickets. 

All of these loss making games will have eaten into any profits made in the latter stages. 

I doubt there was much significant clear profit from the overall cup run, however good it was and undoubtedly raised our profile. 

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17 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Umm no it doesn’t..! 3 players earning an extra 15k per week for 3 years equates to £7million. 

However, I completely agree with the gist of what you are saying about people’s lack of understanding, as my previous suggests, people simply don’t seem to understand the reality of running a football club in this day and age. 

Employers NI at 13.8% is another £1m and that’s before consideration of other employee payments and bonuses, add ons etc. 

Edited by BRISTOL86

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8 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

One of which has just lost arguably the best player in the world to Juventus this summer..! 

Football (transfer business) has chard SO much over the last 5 years in particular. It’s staggering just how many people can see it or grasp the reality of what (most) clubs have to do to operate these days and it’s them spouting moronic, ill thought out criticisms that other sheep blindly follow, that make things like social media and even here, frustratingly unbearable at times. 

If you (those people) don’t understand the game or the business aspect of running a football club in these times, then either learn & get educated, don’t comment, or give up..! 

It’s certainly not the club(s) who come across as looking stupid, when people post such ignorant, out dated drivel about how they now have to operate..! 

I think some fans still think we are living in the football world of a decade ago, when a wealthy owner could potentially bankroll a club to the premier league. We have a very wealthy owner who is still criticised for failing to "put his hand in his pocket". The realities of ffp ( or whatever the championship equivalent is) are lost on these fans.

One of the problems is that we all see a club like Villa, seemingly within an inch of administration earlier in the summer, and yet now, apparently, back to buying top players on top wages, as if nothing has happened. It might well be that their new owners have made them solvent , enabling them to recruit players again, but t has yet to be seen how Vila will fare when ffp calculations come home to roost.

I think It needs a big club like Villa to fall foul of ffp. and be heavily punished as a result - ideally a pints deduction to take them our of promotion or play off places - before fans will grasp the financial realities.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Again though, this is a case of people making a point without thinking it through..!

Yes, the 3 Manchester games will have been profitable (although tickets for the MC away game were cheap, so income would have been more like a crowd of 20k in reality)

However, how much of the profits made in those games will have been offset against the “losses” on previous rounds..? Ok, Palace was a good attendance, but at only £15 per adult ticket, the 22k crowd would have effectively been no more than 10k. Plymouth was 9/10k at just £10 per ticket. Stoke was 13/14k, again at cheap tickets. 

All of these loss making games will have eaten into any profits made in the latter stages. 

I doubt there was much significant clear profit from the overall cup run, however good it was and undoubtedly raised our profile. 

How would we have made ‘losses’ on earlier rounds ?

Minimal profit but losses ?

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2 minutes ago, downendcity said:

I think some fans still think we are living in the football world of a decade ago, when a wealthy owner could potentially bankroll a club to the premier league. We have a very wealthy owner who is still criticised for failing to "put his hand in his pocket". The realities of ffp ( or whatever the championship equivalent is) are lost on these fans.

One of the problems is that we all see a club like Villa, seemingly within an inch of administration earlier in the summer, and yet now, apparently, back to buying top players on top wages, as if nothing has happened. It might well be that their new owners have made them solvent , enabling them to recruit players again, but t has yet to be seen how Vila will fare when ffp calculations come home to roost.

I think It needs a big club like Villa to fall foul of ffp. and be heavily punished as a result - ideally a pints deduction to take them our of promotion or play off places - before fans will grasp the financial realities.

 

 

Honestly can’t think of a club I’d rather see that happen to. 

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11 minutes ago, downendcity said:

 I think some fans still think we are living in the football world of a decade ago, when a wealthy owner could potentially bankroll a club to the premier league. We have a very wealthy owner who is still criticised for failing to "put his hand in his pocket". The realities of ffp ( or whatever the championship equivalent is) are lost on these fans.

One of the problems is that we all see a club like Villa, seemingly within an inch of administration earlier in the summer, and yet now, apparently, back to buying top players on top wages, as if nothing has happened. It might well be that their new owners have made them solvent , enabling them to recruit players again, but t has yet to be seen how Vila will fare when ffp calculations come home to roost.

I think It needs a big club like Villa to fall foul of ffp. and be heavily punished as a result - ideally a pints deduction to take them our of promotion or play off places - before fans will grasp the financial realities.

 

  

Forest are the ones that irk me the most- but Villa too, absolutely.

Forest's is totally artificial, inflated as it is. If Villa sell Grealish for £25m that will make a big dent, plus Traore £3.6m or so sell on clause changes their position somewhat- plus big wage savings apparently.

Forest though?? Even with good outgoing transfers, how the hell can a club make £32.1m profit off a £20m or so turnover?! Not through typical means for sure...

Ideally both are in the top 3...and then get a hefty points deduction in the spring. :whistle2:

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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6 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

How would we have made ‘losses’ on earlier rounds ?

Minimal profit but losses ?

Because even just the costs incurred in staging a first team football fixture are huge. 

It must have been 15/20 years ago that I was involved in a company looking at staging an event at Loftus road. Even back then, members of their board suggested that the costs of staging a fixture were in the region of £150-200k per match..! 

So a 10k crowd at £10 per head, don’t even come close to covering losses. 

Hence the reason that Rovers are loosing millions each year, to the point that they no longer have a ground of their own or any players worth any money. It’s all been cashed in, just to cover costs. 

Anyone who thinks we’d have a hope in hell of being where we are now, without SL bailing us out, is beyond deluded..! 

So, any profit we made on 3 big fixtures, will have been swallowed up in the yearly accounts on fixtures that didn’t generate anything like the required revenue. 

Edited by Bar BS3
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8 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Because even just the costs incurred in staging a first team football fixture are huge. 

It must have been 15/20 years ago that I was involved in a company looking at staging an event at Loftus road. Even back then, members of their board suggested that the costs of staging a fixture were in the region of £150-200k per match..! 

Accept there are costs , lighting , staff , stewards etc 

But the players are being paid whether we are playing that week or not (May Be some very small bonuses) 

We own the stadium (No additional cost for the night)

Even 10000 at £10 gives us £45 k or so on ticket sales alone

Not a massive or important point but Surely that covers staffing and any minimal police presence for the night

Edited by BobBobSuperBob

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46 minutes ago, BCFC_Dan said:

Not if that's the model you've chosen to follow it isn't.

Selling players at the peak of their value, or at least for the maximum possible when it would be difficult to retain them, is very, very good management.

Assuming that Bryan leaves the club will have received over £20m for three players, who cost £300k in transfer fees and relatively little in wages. Not one of them is irreplaceable. Two have already been replaced with competent Championship players.

Besides that, the core of the team has not been lost. A centre half, a left back, and a striker we didn't even know we had 12 months ago have left. Most of the first XI is the same as it ever was, unless the manager chooses to change things.

Think about all the times in the past when we've held on to our "best" players: Nicky Maynard, Liam Fontaine, Marvin Elliot, Aaron Brown. How many of those sustained the level of performance they were showing when offers came in for them?

Pretty much nobody outside Madrid can keep hold of any player they want when another club comes in. The rest of us either sell at the right time or watch an asset depreciate in front of us.

Umm, yeah read my post re selling players, i.e. Kodjia, Tomlin, and sure Flint this summer. My point is that we employ a team of people to buy, sell, and importantly reach our ambitions on the pitch. This isn't a case of not being a selling club, where on earth did i say that? This is a case of managing your assets, and timing. 

Also, if your point that selling HM, AF, BR, JB and MD in one window isn't the core of the team (with FF likely to be gone if fit) i have to disagree. Only Smith Fam and Pack left from the core.

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4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Accept there are costs , lighting , staff , stewards etc 

But the players are being paid whether we are playing that week or not (May Be some very small bonuses) 

We own the stadium (No additional cost for the night)

Even 10000 at £10 gives us £45 k or so on ticket sales alone

Not a massive or important point but Surely that covers staffing and any minimal police presence for the night

I think you’d be surprised..!

£45k (max! Don’t forget child & concession tickets are much cheaper) is not going to go very fat at all. 

Even a small appearance bonus of £500?? Eats up 15%+ of that. Never mind 9 goal bonuses in the 2 early fixtures..!

Then there’s gas, electric, water, match day staffing, stewarding, pitch maintenance, insurance, printing, PR.... the list of little costs goes on and on and adds up. 

@Matt Parsons BCFCSLO as a very rough, general rule of thumb, can you let us know what the average cost of staging a first team fixture at Ashton Gate is. It would be interesting to get a rough idea, please.  

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7 minutes ago, ciderwithtommy said:

Umm, yeah read my post re selling players, i.e. Kodjia, Tomlin, and sure Flint this summer. My point is that we employ a team of people to buy, sell, and importantly reach our ambitions on the pitch. This isn't a case of not being a selling club, where on earth did i say that? This is a case of managing your assets, and timing. 

Also, if your point that selling HM, AF, BR, JB and MD in one window isn't the core of the team (with FF likely to be gone if fit) i have to disagree. Only Smith Fam and Pack left from the core.

You do know that we’ve signed players aswell, yeah..?! 

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1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

I disagree. 

Flint had signed a new contract, presumably with a buy out clause figure written in. 

Reid & Bryan both offered new contracts which they wouldn’t sign, so the only option is to cash in on them. 

All 3 have left this summer because of their profile rise last season. You could say that “success” is down to good management (team & club) 

Unless you make it to the Prem, every club will always have their best players cherry picked by those with either premier league status or premier league money. 

OK - re Flint, I have no idea if that is true. Re BR and JB, how long had that been going on - Bryan maybe as early as last summer? Of course we, as every other club, have to sell players, but I feel this has been too  heavy detriment to our club for this to happen in one summer.  Our model is good, buy young hungry and sell on, sure, but it has to be controlled and planned accordingly, that is the bit we got wrong in my opinion.

2 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

You do know that we’ve signed players aswell, yeah..?! 

Yeah, that's why i said bed in new players yeah..?!

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43 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If I'm brutally honest, the only way we can reach self-sufficiency is in League One if we had ambitions just to stay there, or the PL.

Championship? Swimming against the tide tbh, not only against the tide but trying to do it upstream, rolling a boulder.

Yes, the prize awaiting any team getting promotion from the Championship is so massive that the division must be the most cutthroat one in world football and just to survive in it takes teams massively into debt as there isn't anywhere near the same financial reward TV money wise as in the Premier.

It is thus the most dramatic and exciting league in the world with the biggest investment for the smallest rewards, unless promotion is gained. Maybe, for these reasons the Championship should become a Premier League 2 and get far more TV money. However, if Prem 2 teams get just half what Premier 1 teams receive it would be so substantial that it might reduce the competitiveness that drives it and makes it so exciting.

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2 hours ago, phantom said:

Agree @Red34 figures are concerning especially all the extra money we got from the league cup run and many games on Sky etc

What is more concerning is we invested in crap in January so where did the money go?

Dividends? Or “loan repayments”?

Another way to manage one’s tax liabilities whilst making us all so proud.

Yep. Here he goes again 😉

What I’d like to know is how the money from the transfers out equates to the money from the transfers in. And how much of the transfers in have actually improved things amongst the playing staff.

My guess is that it would look like this:

Transfer funds in - (transfer funds out + improvements in playing squad) = net deficit

Questions from me would be:

1. Who benefits? Probably they who have a dividend.

2. Who’s accountable for that?

3. What's their true ambition for Bristol City Football Club?

Yep. One game in and he’s on about it already. Out of interest - and I accept that money doesn’t guarantee you promotion, success or a beautiful missus (unless you’re called Donald) - what did Forest invest over the summer compared to us?

Anyone know?

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To put the financial benefits of reaching the premiership into perspective they were listing Orem Clubs transfer spend so far

Fulham £90 million !!!

:blink:

Wolves £40 odd million

Cardiff £25 million ish 

 

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39 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Accept there are costs , lighting , staff , stewards etc 

But the players are being paid whether we are playing that week or not (May Be some very small bonuses) 

We own the stadium (No additional cost for the night)

Even 10000 at £10 gives us £45 k or so on ticket sales alone

Not a massive or important point but Surely that covers staffing and any minimal police presence for the night

Hang about Roberto. What’s all this we and us stuff?

Do “we” own the stadium? Do “we” get the match day revenue?

I suspect the only “we” any of us who have followed BCFC for as long as you and I have really care about now own amounts to the square root of **** all. 😉

 

 

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5 minutes ago, BigAlToby&Liam said:

Dividends? Or “loan repayments”?

Another way to manage one’s tax liabilities whilst making us all so proud.

Yep. Here he goes again 😉

What I’d like to know is how the money from the transfers out equates to the money from the transfers in. And how much of the transfers in have actually improved things amongst the playing staff.

My guess is that it would look like this:

Transfer funds in - (transfer funds out + improvements in playing squad) = net deficit

Questions from me would be:

1. Who benefits? Probably they who have a dividend.

2. Who’s accountable for that?

3. What's their true ambition for Bristol City Football Club?

Yep. One game in and he’s on about it already. Out of interest - and I accept that money doesn’t guarantee you promotion, success or a beautiful missus (unless you’re called Donald) - what did Forest invest over the summer compared to us?

Anyone know?

Oh, it's conspiracy day again.

Dividends? Where are they shown in the accounts at Companies House? (Hint: they aren't. It wouldn't be permissible for Bristol City Holdings Ltd to issue dividends based on its accounts).

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9 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

To put the financial benefits of reaching the premiership into perspective they were listing Orem Clubs transfer spend so far

Fulham £90 million !!!

:blink:

Wolves £40 odd million

Cardiff £25 million ish 

 

We owe over £70m

£18m to SL

£56m to the bank

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9 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

Oh, it's conspiracy day again.

Dividends? Where are they shown in the accounts at Companies House? (Hint: they aren't. It wouldn't be permissible for Bristol City Holdings Ltd to issue dividends based on its accounts).

Nope. Hot and thundery in the Ardeche 😎

Is that the only element you care to focus on? Might also “leak out” in other ways 😉

Loan repayments?

Overall the Beneficial Owner gets a benefit. 

Why else would he do it? Oh yes. He wants to make us proud......

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1 hour ago, ciderwithtommy said:

Umm, yeah read my post re selling players, i.e. Kodjia, Tomlin, and sure Flint this summer. My point is that we employ a team of people to buy, sell, and importantly reach our ambitions on the pitch. This isn't a case of not being a selling club, where on earth did i say that? This is a case of managing your assets, and timing. 

They're selling the assets at a time when somebody is willing to pay a substantial amount for the players and the players want to move. That's literally the time when a smart person sells.

 

1 hour ago, ciderwithtommy said:

Also, if your point that selling HM, AF, BR, JB and MD in one window isn't the core of the team (with FF likely to be gone if fit) i have to disagree. Only Smith Fam and Pack left from the core.

You have a funny definition of the "core", I have to say.

Magnússon was a stand-in left back for most of last season, Milan Djuric was fit for a grand total of about 2 months and made 7 starts in his whole time at City, Bobby Reid was an important player last season but that's the only season he's been anything like a key player and Bryan was shifted around the left side from week to week. If Fielding leaves it'll be because the club wants him to because they've replaced him.

The only player who's left who was a regular starter in the spine of the team was Flint, and he's been replaced.

As it stands, Fielding, Pisano, Wright, Baker, Smith, Pack, Paterson, Brownhill, O'Dowda and Diedhiou are all still at the club. That's 10 players who are at least as "core" as anyone who has left, and it's only a left-back away from being a perfectly good 1st XI. The club are rumoured to have a left back signing from Southampton if Bryan leaves.

 

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It's all about selling the whole shebang.

Best players sold - recruits in to keep us mid-table.

Nice expandable stadium.

Multi-team franchise

Land.

Lots and Lots of Land.

Land which is certain to be re-zoned.

Self-made millionaires always have a plan.

And it's never one to lose a shitload of cash.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Forest are the ones that irk me the most- but Villa too, absolutely.

Forest's is totally artificial, inflated as it is. If Villa sell Grealish for £25m that will make a big dent, plus Traore £3.6m or so sell on clause changes their position somewhat- plus big wage savings apparently.

Forest though?? Even with good outgoing transfers, how the hell can a club make £32.1m profit off a £20m or so turnover?! Not through typical means for sure...

Ideally both are in the top 3...and then get a hefty points deduction in the spring. :whistle2:

Good point re Forest.

I remember reading the Villa forum during the summer when they appeared to be on the brink of administration.

The thread moved towards ffp issues, and a number of fans debated that Villa could follow the lead of clubs like Man City and "sell" the naming rights to Villa Park to one of Xia's other business interests for a ridiculously inflated figure, thereby solving ffp issues. In fairness, other posters explained that they have people who judge "fair value" in terms of ffp accounting.

However, this is where the EFL must be robust and not niaive, when it appears clubs have financed themselves from the magic money tree. Clubs, and their wealthy owners, will have access to the best legal and financial brains to look for ways to wriggle around ffp. if they chose that route. The EFL must make sure they have equally clever people able to spot such deceptions. If such shenanigans do take place then I also hope this attracts additional, swingeing penalty on top of any normal ffp punishment.

 

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14 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Good point re Forest.

I remember reading the Villa forum during the summer when they appeared to be on the brink of administration.

The thread moved towards ffp issues, and a number of fans debated that Villa could follow the lead of clubs like Man City and "sell" the naming rights to Villa Park to one of Xia's other business interests for a ridiculously inflated figure, thereby solving ffp issues. In fairness, other posters explained that they have people who judge "fair value" in terms of ffp accounting.

However, this is where the EFL must be robust and not niaive, when it appears clubs have financed themselves from the magic money tree. Clubs, and their wealthy owners, will have access to the best legal and financial brains to look for ways to wriggle around ffp. if they chose that route. The EFL must make sure they have equally clever people able to spot such deceptions. If such shenanigans do take place then I also hope this attracts additional, swingeing penalty on top of any normal ffp punishment.

 

It's pretty obvious what Forest did.

Debt write-off under a new owner? 40.4m

"Profit" 32.1m

Real/FFP adjusted loss? About 8.3m

(Of course their academy expenditure etc takes it lower).

Let's say Real/FFP adjusted loss? 6.9m.

If the EFL cannot spot that, FFP may as well pack up and go home.

Fully agree, those playing the system should get an additional punishment in addition to the FFP punishment.

 

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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3 hours ago, ciderwithtommy said:

The current situation, i.e. losing the core of your team in one summer, and therefore needing a huge round of recruitment and bedding in etc. is really really poor management. However, in my opinion this doesn't sit with SL, who has employed people to run the club day to day, chiefly MA. Pouring more cash in is hugely significant, and should be appreciated.  However if I were SL I would be asking how we let 3 (as a minimum) of our best players get to a point where they wanted/needed to leave in one summer. I really believe this summer has pushed us back 2 years.  

Selling Kodjia, and replacing, was good business and didn't truly affect us. Likewise Tomlin. Needing a whole new spine to the team is crazy, and only should happen to a team in crisis, which I believe we are not. Finishing above 11th this season would be an amazing achievement, which in itself shows how damaging a summer we have had. 

I agree, to an extent, but I disagree on the "needing a new spine" comment.

Good teams should be moving and replacing the spine of the team every couple of years, in order to show improvement. If the money we've brought in will improve the quality of that spine then, as a club, we've moved forward, so finishing above 11th should be expected as a minimum.

The pressing issue is whether the players we've signed as replacements are better than what we had. A draw against a good Forest side is NOT a bad result, but I think it'll take a few games for the fans to see whether this gamble has paid off. 

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Always amazes me how lansdown is hailed as a messiah, saviour and Great for our club. I'll admit someone now and owns a fabulous stadium but on the pitch we have hardly moved from when he took over. Don't anyone tell me his model is the best, he has made the club un saleable really. It's his personal play thing to hand over to junior when he goes and he will do what ever he wants and bollocks to us customers. Tell me how brentford, Preston and millwall do it on considerably less? Thats how to run a club. We just stumble along from one mediocre season to the next blaming ffp while others just get on with it with no signs of real meaningful progress and we never will until he employs a manager who knows what he is doing and not simply a nodding dog who will never rock the boat.

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3 hours ago, Sturny said:

That's mad I had no idea the prize money was so low, makes you think what's even the point? That's nearly nothing in today's football money for the giants that normally progress that far

With respect to you, what you have stated here is why I am becoming disillusioned with football at the top level.

The game used to be about the glory and pride of winning a trophy, now it seems that clubs ( and people) look at the money side as more important than actually winning things. 

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