Obsession with goalkeepers distribution.

[barneyrubble]

Really don't get the current obsession with the quality of a keepers distribution. Surely it is far more important they can keep the ball out of the bl***y net.

Shot stopping and the ability to command your box and organise your defence are what it is vital for a keeper.

If you can hit 40 yard crossfield balls  consistently you should of been a midfielder. As long as the keeper can clear the halfway line and throw a ball to a fullback surely that's good enough. 

At the end of the day if you don't concede you don't lose hence shot stopping and commanding box are paramount.Distribution is a bonus.

 

[italian dave]

Agree to a point, but if you can’t hit a 40 yard cross field ball accurately then stop trying and giving away possession every time! 

[Monkeh]

1 minute ago, italian dave said:

Agree to a point, but if you can’t hit a 40 yard cross field ball accurately then stop trying and giving away possession every time! 

then the head coach shouldn't instruct the keeper to do it

[italian dave]

1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

then the head coach shouldn't instruct the keeper to do it

Or replace him with someone who can....

[Monkeh]

2 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Or replace him with someone who can....

the goal keeper shouldn't be playing crossfield 40 yard balls to feet, he's there to keep goals out of the net

[BRISTOL86]

7 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

then the head coach shouldn't instruct the keeper to do it

It was noticeable that Maenpaa wasn’t doing what Frankie does and aiming for the paint on the touch line.

Which suggests either a change of instruction or one of FF and NM not doing as instructed. In the interests of giving FF the benefit of the doubt, let’s say the former!

[Robbored]

11 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

then the head coach shouldn't instruct the keeper to do it

Lots international coaches tried to do the same in the World Cup.  It seems to be trendy tactic in modern football. 

Im guessing that the idea is to find a wide teammate to either flick it on or attack down the wing, whilst the opposing team are expecting a punt in the general direction of your own center forward. If it goes out of play then both teams have time to get into formation.

Reasonable idea I guess but you need a keeper capable of doing it consistently.

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

It was noticeable that Maenpaa wasn’t doing what Frankie does and aiming for the paint on the touch line.

Which suggests either a change of instruction or one of FF and NM not doing as instructed. In the interests of giving FF the benefit of the doubt, let’s say the former!

Agree 

Posted the same yesterday

Maenpaa wasn’t flirting as wide and put a dpfew straight down the middle

Does seem strange

I still wonder if we were happy as a secondary option we were happy for the ball to go out for a throw in and give them the problem of retaining possession in their own half

FFs kicking wasn’t wildly varied hinting at inaccuracy (Ie one pulled 20yds inside pitch next one 10yds into touch , he was reasonably ‘consistent , even ‘accurate’ within a pretty narrow zone when he went to the lines 

We are talking about kicks not under immediate pressure of course

FFs kicking like many deteriorated under immediate pressure 

I think the main thing about a keeper (And attribute to seek)  , in our ethos is more -

can he take it to feet , even under a bit of pressing pressure and be comfortable and find a nearby team mate with a short pass

More so  than worrying whether he can drop it on a sixpence 50-60 yards away

 

Interesting hearing a short discussion on the debate last night talking about coaching goalkeepers 

Mark Schwarzer was on there and said in his experience , although keepers need to work on their skills , his experience , at most Clubs is that they are not involved enough with the outfield players and in possession drills etc

(Im sure this will and is changing)

[Carey 6]

All I'll say is, the keeper with the worst distribution in the league (by far) got promoted last season. All about styles and how you want your team to play. 

I'm sure @Cowshed will be in here in a minute. He loves this particular debate. 

 

[footie]

As is the way of the modern game at a high level, goalkeeper's distribution is a huge factor when it comes to keeping possession / starting attacks / counter attacking.

[Monkeh]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

Lots international coaches tried to do the same in the World Cup.  It seems to be trendy tactic in modern football. 

Im guessing that the idea is to find a wide teammate to either flick it on or attack down the wing, whilst the opposing team are expecting a punt in the general direction of your own center forward. If it goes out of play then both teams have time to get into formation.

Reasonable idea I guess but you need a keeper capable of doing it consistently.

if it fails it normally goes out of play giving a team time to regroup as well

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, Carey 6 said:

All I'll say is, the keeper with the worst distribution in the league (by far) got promoted last season. All about styles and how you want your team to play. 

I'm sure @Cowshed will be in here in a minute. He loves this particular debate. 

 

Bloody good point that

Not as if they played unattractive football either 

[Super]

Bring back the back pass rule!

[BRISTOL86]

Interesting final point @BobBobSuperBob - in the modern game it always amazes me to see keepers working on their own pre game and not involved in the possession stuff. Though I’m guessing it’s not necessarily the case during the week. 

I thought as a team we actually did well on Sat under pressure and largely maintained the belief in our ability to play to feet when pressed. I don’t think we hit as much long under pressure as we would have last season. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

Bit like some of the old football games where you can set attributes and allocate skill points

You have 100 skill points to allocate between shot stopping , crosses and kicking / footballing ability

In an ideal world you’d want near 100 points in each

But in our markets we can shop in the more skill points we want in his kicking there’s likely to be a compromise elsewhere 

 

If you had the choice

Average shot stopping etc keeper with decent footballing ability 

or 

Very good keeper with poor distribution

 

Interesting one

 

Think I’m firmly nailed in  - first and foremost very good keeper attributes , with the belief that with some intense work the footballing part can be improved

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

5 minutes ago, Super said:

Bring back the back pass rule!

On a serious note

Wasn’t that one of the best , if not best , rule changes , ever

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

19 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Interesting final point @BobBobSuperBob - in the modern game it always amazes me to see keepers working on their own pre game and not involved in the possession stuff. Though I’m guessing it’s not necessarily the case during the week. 

I thought as a team we actually did well on Sat under pressure and largely maintained the belief in our ability to play to feet when pressed. I don’t think we hit as much long under pressure as we would have last season. 

Schwarzer was saying that there is was an increase in keepers doing possession / ‘feet skills’ but often between them as a group but , and , that the vital bit was to do it with outfield players as their movement , closing down , and level was totally different

I was surprised they are not involved in more scenario drills with the outfield players but I’m sure that will and is changing with the modern keeper trend

[Super]

17 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

On a serious note

Wasn’t that one of the best , if not best , rule changes , ever

 

That and 3 points for a win.

[Chappers]

Think some obsess too much, FF is a pretty decent keeper at this level, rarely letting us down. As the many loans have proved, we could do worse.

[pride of the west]

42 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

It was noticeable that Maenpaa wasn’t doing what Frankie does and aiming for the paint on the touch line.

Which suggests either a change of instruction or one of FF and NM not doing as instructed. In the interests of giving FF the benefit of the doubt, let’s say the former!

Change kf tactic. It's because we didn't have anybody who was going to win a header from a goal kick.

The plan was to play it down the middle, make it difficult for the defender to win the header, then pick up the 2nd ball. 

If it didn't work out everybody could get back into shape quickly. Alot harder if a few players are on the touchline. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, Super said:

That and 3 points for a win.

Yep , good shout

Think we forget the games where one side would kill the majority of the game and the whole of the last 15 mins passing to the keeper

Besides being a good side , Liverpool were masters at it

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, Super said:

That and 3 points for a win.

Not exactly a rule change but it’s made a fantastic difference to the way teams play. Games are generally far more enjoyable to watch.

i might be wrong but I think it was Trevor Brooking who was behind the idea which was originally three points for an away win.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Depends how you want to play I think.

If you want a fine passing side, then goalkeeper to ball playing centre back to Pack to Paterson who goes to winger or striker- one possible setup. Key to this IMO though is a ball playing centre back- perhaps we went wider because we didn't have full faith in either Baker or Flint to perform that ball playing centre back role. Short distribution with a ball playing centre back and perhaps said ball playing centre back can step up into midfield too in some cases.

Tend to agree with @BobBobSuperBob a sweeper keeper almost, i.e. reasonable ability under pressure and a short to medium range of pass would be a good goal to move towards. Not saying we have to play the short pass every single time but it's a good basis I believe.

[ExiledAjax]

My biggest bug bear with FF's distribution is not the accuracy of his long kicks.  For me the most frustrating thing is the length of time he holds onto the ball.  When an opposition player floats a cross in and FF catches it he needs to immediately be looking to throw it out and launch a counter attack whilst the opposition are still out of shape. Instead, he used to hold onto the ball, have a lengthy discussion with Flint and Bryan, look right, look left, look right again and then finally roll it to Flint. This slowed us down far too much and allowed the opposition to organise.  I've spoken to some who suggest this was intentional to allow for some periods of recovery in our high intensity pressing game, but I don't buy that as it is every time he has the ball.

I've only seen the highlights of the Forest game so can't comment on whether Niki is an upgrade in this department, but I really hope he is.

As an aside, shot stopping is a keeper's bread and butter. You expect a keeper to save shots. Therefore you don't judge him on that, you judge him on the extra qualities he has to elevate himself above all other keepers who also stop shots.

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 minutes ago, pride of the west said:

Change kf tactic. It's because we didn't have anybody who was going to win a header from a goal kick.

The plan was to play it down the middle, make it difficult for the defender to win the header, then pick up the 2nd ball. 

If it didn't work out everybody could get back into shape quickly. Alot harder if a few players are on the touchline. 

 

I would have thought / suggested you’re  more likely to go wide if you think you might not win the header as it’s less impactive to lose possession ‘out there’ rather than lose the second ball in the middle of the pitch 

Yet in taking the trouble of getting Flint out there for FFs dead ball kicks indicated LJ wanted to win that initial header at the potential cost of pulling Flint out of position

I was surprised and confused we did go down the middle at times on Sat as it was a day we had very little chance of winning an initial challenge

 

i have to say I’m now totally confused about the kicking wide with Frankie plan is and would genuinely love to hear LJs explanation 

(I’m not criticising - there will be one but I’d be interested ) 

 

I come back to , if I was coaching in the modern game , and I had difficulties with getting out in possession ‘ paricularly from dead ball keeper kicks,       the ball in touch , in their half is actually not a bad place

We can move up as an organised unit

If it’s our throw we have a chance to retain possession high up the pitch and if it’s their throw we can , or try to box them in with a chance of winning possession high up the pitch with the threats that brings

Im not sure we should be so concerned about some of  FFs kicks find touch (There are (occasional) times when even the above theory is not appropriate )

[Spoons]

I'm deliberately staying out of this debate for obvious reasons !!

[BobBobSuperBob]

7 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

My biggest bug bear with FF's distribution is not the accuracy of his long kicks.  For me the most frustrate thing is the length of time he holds onto the ball.  When an opposition player floats a cross in and FF catches it he needs to immediately be looking to throw it out and launch a counter attack whilst the opposition are still out of shape. Instead, he used to hold onto the ball, have a lengthy discussion with Flint and Bryan, look right, look left, look right again and then finally roll it to Flint. This slowed us down far too much and allowed the opposition to organise.  I've spoken to some who suggest this was intentional to allow for some periods of recovery in our high intensity pressing game, but I don't buy that as it is every time he has the ball.

I've only seen the highlights of the Forest game so can't comment on whether Niki is an upgrade in this department, but I really hope he is.

As an aside, shot stopping is a keeper's bread and butter. You expect a keeper to save shots. Therefore you don't judge him on that, you judge him on the extra qualities he has to elevate himself above all other keepers who also stop shots.

Do you think that’s FF

or the instruction , (work through the thirds ethos)  ?

(I don’t actually know the answer !)

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Barney red said:

Really don't get the current obsession with the quality of a keepers distribution. Surely it is far more important they can keep the ball out of the bl***y net.

Shot stopping and the ability to command your box and organise your defence are what it is vital for a keeper.

If you can hit 40 yard crossfield balls  consistently you should of been a midfielder. As long as the keeper can clear the halfway line and throw a ball to a fullback surely that's good enough. 

At the end of the day if you don't concede you don't lose hence shot stopping and commanding box are paramount.Distribution is a bonus.

 

The majority (70%) of a goal keepers game is played with the feet. Goal keepers touch the ball with their feet more than the centre forward does. Any team with a goal keeper who is not adept with his feet will always lack technical flexibility - Teams playing 3 at that back frequently have Keepers with high footballing ability - Hart v Pickford? Pickford all day long.  Every time a Keeper gives possession away that's a attack to defend and attack that is not being made. Many teams now make over 12000 successful passes in a season the Keeper has to be part of that - Man city make 20000+ and could not without Ederson or a similar Keeper . Keepers (the really good ones) now act as a pivot resetting possession and being an option. Possession is a way of not conceding and on and on and this will all go in the future.

Its not an obsession it is skill set that many coaches have wanted in Keepers for decades, and increased in necessity after the back pass rule altered totally how Keepers played technically, and teams tactically in 1992. England technically and tactically has been slower to catch up and traditionally looked at football as being 4-4-2 and long ball … Still does in some respects.

[123456789000]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The majority (70%) of a goal keepers game is played with the feet. Goal keepers touch the ball with their feet more than the centre forward does. Any team with a goal keeper who is not adept with his feet will always lack technical flexibility - Teams playing 3 at that back frequently have Keepers with high footballing ability - Hart v Pickford? Pickford all day long.  Every time a Keeper gives possession away that's a attack to defend and attack that is not being made. Many teams now make over 12000 successful passes in a season the Keeper has to be part of that - Man city make 20000+ and could not without Ederson or a similar Keeper . Keepers (the really good ones) now act as a pivot resetting possession and being an option. Possession is a way of not conceding and on and on and this will all go in the future.

Its not an obsession it is skill set that many coaches have wanted in Keepers for decades, and increased in necessity after the back pass rule altered totally how Keepers played technically, and teams tactically in 1992. England technically and tactically has been slower to catch up and traditionally looked at football as being 4-4-2 and long ball … Still does in some respects.

Excellent post.

[ExiledAjax]

6 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Do you think that’s FF

or the instruction , (work through the thirds ethos)  ?

(I don’t actually know the answer !)

I don't think any of us really know the answer.  I cannot remember how FF played when he was at Derby.  However, I have a feeling I have been frustrated with that aspect of his game since before Johnson came along. To me that suggests that it is something that FF does on his own rather than under strict instruction.  There was one game last season, possibly Brentford away, where I distinctly recall comparing him to the opposition goalie (presumably Bentley) and just feeling astonished at the difference in the speed of distribution. 

Did you notice Maenpaa distributing quickly from hands at all?