Is The Lansdown Loss A Myth?

[Monkeh]

2 minutes ago, RightUpInCider said:

That’s completely irrelevant.... his decision to move to Guernsey is completed independent of his investments in Bristol City.

SL has been the saviour of our football club and will rightly have a massive place in our clubs history.

I disagree with that completely, I'm thankful for his ownership and greatful for his investment, but he isn't the saviour of the club

[Alessandro]

25 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Yet you still get it wrong. 51% of the ground, not the Club. The club currently do not own the ground.

I do live in the real world and have previously operated in the world of financial planning for high net worth individuals.

Very few clubs, if any own their grounds. Our's is owned by Aston Gate Holdings, of which SL is one of 3 (IIRC) directors.

I'm sure someone more down on football accountancy would be able to explain this, i'm sure it's all for sound financial reasons, otherwise every other club wouldn't be doing it. No doubt removes liability from the ground/club in case of winding up.

R.E the second part of your post. SL's personal living and tax arrangements have sod all to do with BCFC and it's profitability. 

The question is a very simple one, when was BCFC last profitable? I.E When did the club alone earn enough profit, or even have enough revenue, that someone could be taking it out?

The opposite is in fact the case, SL, on top of the millions in ground and training ground development, has been covering year after year loses into the 100's of millions.

This idea of some sort of sense of fan ownership in modern football is fairy tale stuff, it's a multi-billion pound industry. I'm not saying it's right, look at the glazier's for example, Man United's stadium is registered in the Cayman Island's I believe. I'm just saying the train has long left the station and wholesale seismic political changes would be needed before football changes it's current course.

 

 

[Monkeh]

2 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Very few clubs, if any own their grounds. Our's is owned by Aston Gate Ltd, of which SL is one of 3 (IIRC) directors.

I'm sure someone more down on football accountancy would be able to explain this, i'm sure it's all for sound financial reasons, otherwise every other club wouldn't be doing it. No doubt removes liability from the football club, streamlines revenue etc etc.

R.E the second part of your post. SL's personal living and tax arrangements have sod all to do with BCFC and it's profitability. 

The question is a very simple one, when was BCFC last profitable? I.E When did the club alone earn enough profit, or even have enough revenue, that someone could be taking it out?

The opposite is in fact the case, SL, on top of the millions in ground and training ground development, has been covering year after year loses into the 100's of millions.

This idea of some sort of sense of fan ownership in modern football is fairy tale stuff, it's a multi-billion pound industry. I'm not saying it's right, look at the glazier's for example, Man United's stadium is registered in the Cayman Island's I believe. I'm just saying the train has long left the station and wholesale seismic political changes would be needed before football changes it's current course.

 

 

1997/98 season

[Alessandro]

2 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

1997/98 season

20 years ago. So 20 years of, on average, probably about £10m worth of loss to be covered by someone.

 And people still think he is taking money out the club?

[RightUpInCider]

2 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

I disagree with that completely, I'm thankful for his ownership and greatful for his investment, but he isn't the saviour of the club

I guess it depends on whether view playing Championship football, with a new stadium, new training ground, a fantastic academy, playing good football, 20k attendances, a pathway for young players and a growing reputation as a football club going places as being “saved” from playing League One football in an aging stadium, 10k attendances, playing journeymen at the end of their careers and being left behind other clubs....

One thing for sure... I don’t see another SL in the queue.... and certainly not a local one with the club at heart.

 

 

[Undy English]

40 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

This is a very bizarre and pointless thread. 

Hahahaha well said!!! 

[Monkeh]

4 minutes ago, RightUpInCider said:

I guess it depends on whether view playing Championship football, with a new stadium, new training ground, a fantastic academy, playing good football, 20k attendances, a pathway for young players and a growing reputation as a football club going places as being “saved” from playing League One football in an aging stadium, 10k attendances, playing journeymen at the end of their careers and being left behind other clubs....

One thing for sure... I don’t see another SL in the queue.... and certainly not a local one with the club at heart.

 

 

I get where you are coming from but as I said I don't class him as a saviour,

he's a great owner but he's not harry dolman or terry cooper

[RedRaw]

36 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

I do live in the real world and have previously operated in the world of financial planning for high net worth individuals.

Then surely you know that people don't get rich by giving their money away.

If not, then that's probably why you previously worked in the world of financial planning

[LondonBristolian]

"Dear Mr Lansdown,

 

I've made a speculative assessment of your financial worth based on the limited information published in the media and some estimates and speculations on my part. Having done that, I've now decided I have a right to tell you how to spend your money. Specifically, because you might have made a saving in your personal life, you therefore have to hand over assets of a business you own.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Someone clutching at straws."

[southvillekiddy]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

absolute horseshit he's spent 100m of his money (not the clubs) on the stadium, he's covered the loss each season since he's owned us which started and around 3 million ballooned to 18.9 million and now back down to 4 million (latest accounts) lets put a rough estimate on it  shall we (he's been the top man about 15 years) say 4 million a season until we got to the championship (3 years to be generous) so thats 12 million and then for the rest of the time lets say 12 million a season for arguments sake 9x12 thats 108 million,

So we're up to 200 million before we've even made a profit thats with out the investment in the training ground and on going improvements,

and you want more?

its lansdowns personal money he could do an olyson and not spend anything as well as bleed the club dry, he doesn't he covers the clubs loses every season

We pay a different sort of price having SL as our owner. He's both our greatest benefactor and our greatest obstacle.

[Monkeh]

2 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

We pay a different sort of price having SL as our owner. He's both our greatest benefactor and our greatest obstacle.

Can't agree with that statement,

Theres alot of things we wouldn't have Championship football being one of them, a decent youth set up being another

[Bar BS3]

1 hour ago, The Original OTIB said:

Who said it wasn't legal? The topic is about his presumed net loss. It is not bizarre and pointless to point out that overall, the massive tax savings have eased the burden, and indeed superceded it.

But he’s still invested his money in Bristol City & Bristol Sport. Has he not done that, he’d be a hell of a lot richer than he is now. 

The OP makes it sound like it’s cost him nothing of his fortune. That just simply wrong. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

Genuine question 

Anyone understand / know enough to estimate a value on the club (Incl ground and land)

1 Now

2 If we were to reach the Premier League

[southvillekiddy]

13 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Can't agree with that statement,

Theres alot of things we wouldn't have Championship football being one of them, a decent youth set up being another

You said it and whatever he has said about Premiership football, last season proved that he is comfortable being in the Championship. And before someone says it. I don't want him to go. I want him to change.

[EnderMB]

I have no issue with Lansdown owning the ground. He's fully invested for the long-term in the club, so I have no worries about what he'll do with it.

However, I DO worry about the future without Lansdown. He's not getting any younger, and without any secession plans in place (does the club go to junior?) it's hard to know whether in ten years time Lansdown will cash out. If Lansdown does sell the club, let's say after promotion to an investor, you'd assume the ground would go to that investor.

That's where the worry sets in for me. It's a pretty far-fetched worry, but when the stadium is property in Lansdown's portfolio I doubt any buyer will say "I'd like to buy Bristol City, but give the stadium back to the club for free".

[Leveller]

1 hour ago, The Original OTIB said:

Meaning that for 10 years in a tax haven at 20% rather than 45% here (and 50% in prior years) he's saved nothing in tax on an immense fortune/income? Perhaps you can address that point?

What on earth has his personal gross and net income from Hargreaves Lansdown got to do with the cash he has injected into Bristol City? You make it sound as if the football club has provided him with an income.

The only possible angle you may have us whether investing in Bristol Sport has made it a saleable asset that justifies the outlay. But since he seems to have set it up as his sons career, selling it .does not seem very likely

 

[Monkeh]

3 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

I have no issue with Lansdown owning the ground. He's fully invested for the long-term in the club, so I have no worries about what he'll do with it.

However, I DO worry about the future without Lansdown. He's not getting any younger, and without any secession plans in place (does the club go to junior?) it's hard to know whether in ten years time Lansdown will cash out. If Lansdown does sell the club, let's say after promotion to an investor, you'd assume the ground would go to that investor.

That's where the worry sets in for me. It's a pretty far-fetched worry, but when the stadium is property in Lansdown's portfolio I doubt any buyer will say "I'd like to buy Bristol City, but give the stadium back to the club for free".

I think we are started to see the succession plans being put in place and I'm not talking about who becomes owner,

He's trying to make the club as self sufficient as possible, which is why he told us not to get too attached to player, if o'dowda has a good season this year for example expect him to be sold for 14 odd million 7 of which will be reinvested in the team, the other 7 to service the debt 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

I have no issue with Lansdown owning the ground. He's fully invested for the long-term in the club, so I have no worries about what he'll do with it.

However, I DO worry about the future without Lansdown. He's not getting any younger, and without any secession plans in place (does the club go to junior?) it's hard to know whether in ten years time Lansdown will cash out. If Lansdown does sell the club, let's say after promotion to an investor, you'd assume the ground would go to that investor.

That's where the worry sets in for me. It's a pretty far-fetched worry, but when the stadium is property in Lansdown's portfolio I doubt any buyer will say "I'd like to buy Bristol City, but give the stadium back to the club for free".

This.

AFAIK, Jon Lansdown will inherit the club, but if somehow he lost interest and sold the club (highly unlikely) then yes, chances are Ashton Gate would be part of the deal. I don't see how it wouldn't be unless its been ringfenced somehow.

[maxjak]

48 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

I get where you are coming from but as I said I don't class him as a saviour,

he's a great owner but he's not harry dolman or terry cooper

In it's proper definition he is our saviour, as he has brought salvation to our club, by delivering us from difficulty and preserving us from failure!  Sorry i'm not gettin' all biblical on yer A✯✯!!......Just saying it's a matter of semantics, however I get where your'e coming from.  I would guess he's more of a Patron of Bristol City FC, but whatever term you care to label him with?...........................we would not be in our current secure financial position, or have our excellent ❨In depth!!❩ playing squad without him.

[downendcity]

2 hours ago, Monkeh said:

absolute horseshit he's spent 100m of his money (not the clubs) on the stadium, he's covered the loss each season since he's owned us which started and around 3 million ballooned to 18.9 million and now back down to 4 million (latest accounts) lets put a rough estimate on it  shall we (he's been the top man about 15 years) say 4 million a season until we got to the championship (3 years to be generous) so thats 12 million and then for the rest of the time lets say 12 million a season for arguments sake 9x12 thats 108 million,

So we're up to 200 million before we've even made a profit thats with out the investment in the training ground and on going improvements,

and you want more?

its lansdowns personal money he could do an olyson and not spend anything as well as bleed the club dry, he doesn't he covers the clubs loses every season

So, apart from the stadium, the academy, the training ground, covering losses every season, so forking out £200m of his own money....................................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

............. just what has Steve Lansdown ever done for Bristol City FC?

 

 

 

[wendyredredrobin]

Don't forget also that if Steve sold 200 million pounds worth of shares he has saved 56 million pounds in capital gains tax by Living in Guernsey.  Of course he would rather spend that on BCFC than giving it to HMRC.  Which do you think would give him (and us) the most pleasure?

[robin_unreliant]

16 minutes ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Don't forget also that if Steve sold 200 million pounds worth of shares he has saved 56 million pounds in capital gains tax by Living in Guernsey.  Of course he would rather spend that on BCFC than giving it to HMRC.  Which do you think would give him (and us) the most pleasure?

So what we're saying is that HMRC ultimately has bank-rolled the club?

Very generous of them.

[Nibor]

The problem isn't with SteveL's fantastic generosity.  Nor is it with the infrastructural investment which has been great (aside from the money wasted on Bristol Sport's suit wearing numpties). 

The problem is with the value for money gained from investment in the football club.  Over the years this has averaged out at poor.  It's been better in the last year or three mainly due to some fantastic sales but there is a long way to go.  Other teams still seem to do more with less, and we would benefit from leadership that is qualified by continued success in football rather than by being born.

[jj77]

4 hours ago, Monkeh said:

but thats not the clubs money, why should he give the club anything?

Why own a football club if you're not going to put you're own money in?

From the outside (and from what has been told from the inside) it looks as though both him and his son know nothing about football.

If you're going to own a football club as your plaything then at least put the money in and get it to be the best it can.

[Show Me The Money!]

4 hours ago, Monkeh said:

but thats not the clubs money, why should he give the club anything?

Exactly, he's said a gazillion times that he wants the club to be self sufficient. That's why he is investing money in the ground, training facility's etc to allow it to do that.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

4 hours ago, The Original OTIB said:

The thread topic is clear in that is talking about his overall loss and whether it is true or not. The investment has been fantastic, and we give thanks, but overall, it has not hurt him given the massive amount that he has saved in tax by living in Guernsey. The two are inextricably related.

 

                                                                FINANCIAL PLANNING IN THE WORLD OF THE ORIGINAL OTIB:-

 

"Woke up and managed to get one last squeeze of toothpaste from tube thereby saving £2.50 on a new one.

Walked past car showroom and didn't buy the 2nd hand Ferrari on forecourt saving  a total of £48,000

Got to work and didn't receive a £100,000 bonus thus saving £50,000 in tax

Got home and then went to Pub but didn't buy it saving £350,000 in purchase price.

Went to bed having very happy to have saved a total of £448,002.50 during the day.

Spent night thinking about what the hell I'm gonna spend £448,025.50 on tomorrow."

[Monkeh]

9 minutes ago, jj77 said:

Why own a football club if you're not going to put you're own money in?

From the outside (and from what has been told from the inside) it looks as though both him and his son know nothing about football.

If you're going to own a football club as your plaything then at least put the money in and get it to be the best it can.

thats not the point I'm making, the point is he DOESNT have to put anything in, take a look around the leagues there are plenty of bad owners out there,

if you were to rate all 92 owners I'd wager Lansdown would come in the top 5

[EnderMB]

3 hours ago, Leveller said:

What on earth has his personal gross and net income from Hargreaves Lansdown got to do with the cash he has injected into Bristol City? You make it sound as if the football club has provided him with an income.

The only possible angle you may have us whether investing in Bristol Sport has made it a saleable asset that justifies the outlay. But since he seems to have set it up as his sons career, selling it .does not seem very likely

I think the point that's being made is that Lansdown saves x (let's say £50m a year) on dodging tax on his income, so in theory he can throw £10m at the club every year and it doesn't really affect him. 

This is pretty much the standard line I've heard from City fans in the pub - "Lansdown saves £100m a year on tax, so why doesn't he put that money into the club and we'll be in the Premier League in two years". It works, in theory, but people forget that getting to the Premier League isn't the final goal. Once we get there, Lansdown needs to dig into his pockets to ensure we stay there.

 

[downendcity]

32 minutes ago, jj77 said:

Why own a football club if you're not going to put you're own money in?

From the outside (and from what has been told from the inside) it looks as though both him and his son know nothing about football.

If you're going to own a football club as your plaything then at least put the money in and get it to be the best it can.

Think you might be right jj.

If he knew anything at all about football, he would never have become owner of Bristol City in the first place!

[numbeast]

There are two thing I believe have been missed out. Despite the very low interest rates how much would he have gained by investing that £200M? Probably more than most of us would earn in a lifetime by some considerable distance.

Secondly how much would he get if he sold the club? I'm not sure he'd get more than half his money back.