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Tippy tap football


DT The Optimist

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I was not at game today and respect to those who made the trip.I ask this question  having listened to game and noting we had 70% possession on bbc web site.

Were we playing ineffective tippy tap football with little or no real end product. This was us last year. Sean Dyche commented this week that having loads possession means nothing as proved  by the World Cup .  Many teams won games with 25% possession.  We were for sure the better side but with so much of the ball we should be creating so much more 

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22 minutes ago, DT The Optimist said:

I was not at game today and respect to those who made the trip.I ask this question  having listened to game and noting we had 70% possession on bbc web site.

Were we playing ineffective tippy tap football with little or no real end product. This was us last year. Sean Dyche commented this week that having loads possession means nothing as proved  by the World Cup .  Many teams won games with 25% possession.  We were for sure the better side but with so much of the ball we should be creating so much more 

That’s exactly it for the first 60 minutes, lots of football around the centre circle with very little happening when we got to 25 yards out

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Sounds like it has all the hallmarks of the arse end of last season. Safety first, nobody prepared to gamble making forward runs, and looking for the perfect goal. Lee Johnson said as much in the post match that we are still far too cautious in attack.

 

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The reason we had as much possession was as much about Bolton as it was about us. They were not only happy to sit back and play without the ball but they didn't threaten us going forwards when in open play, so they would relinquish it back to us or we would tackle them.

We looked to build from the back, with the keeper giving it to one of Baker or Webster who hung back left and right. They would either bring it out and look for a ball into the channel or be supported by one of the midfield.

Pack dropped off, Brownhill dropped off, Pato dropped off to link up. Once we got into the final 3rd we generally found the Bolton brick wall today, but we still got crosses in and IMO still looked to pass and move quickly to find spaces, won a fair number of free-kicks in good positions in doing so. Brownhill's good long distance effort coming from some good movement. 

We may have lack that cutting edge in the final 3rd, but let's be realistic about this division, any team can put 11 men behind the ball and be very hard to break down. Even if we judge them as a shit team because they offer little going forward, they can be organised and defensive and make it difficult for even the best attacks. 

Did we over complicate our play? IMO, no. Did we pass it around unnecessarily when we could have had a pop or stuck in a cross. Not on many occasions that I can recall. 

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I had this theory after Millwall away and I shall revisit it.

For some games like this- vs teams who let us have the ball, sit very deep and pounce on errors somewhat- Millwall a better team than Bolton, but some similar principles.

Might it be an idea to for portions of this game, cede possession for a while, challenge them to break us down and pounce on their inevitable mistakes? Because teams such as these are generally pretty reactive and if you force them to take the initiative a bit, it can force them to take risks and cause them new challenges and problems- ones they are not used to or necessarily comfortable with.

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1 hour ago, DT The Optimist said:

I was not at game today and respect to those who made the trip.I ask this question  having listened to game and noting we had 70% possession on bbc web site.

Were we playing ineffective tippy tap football with little or no real end product. This was us last year. Sean Dyche commented this week that having loads possession means nothing as proved  by the World Cup .  Many teams won games with 25% possession.  We were for sure the better side but with so much of the ball we should be creating so much more 

Bolton fans were impressed by City. 

...they gave us a football lesson IMO, they out passed us, out fought us, looked fitter, and a yard quicker (our players looked like they had lead in the boots, or running through treacle), they were far more creative, far more attacking with 4 or 5 attackers at times 2nd half.

Serious question not a wind up or anything - player for player are Bristol City that much better than us in terms of their players being very comfortable on the ball, being much quicker, much more energetic, more physical, moving the ball a lot quicker and their players generally looking a division or so higher than ours - have they spend millions or is there manager better tactically ?

Because I actually thought that they were missing a few of their best players & had sold a really good LB - I didn't expect that today from them, but they seriously impressed me today in how they played football on the front foot for the full 90 mins, they ran rings round us for the majority of the game.

 

https://the-wanderer.co.uk/boards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26819&start=120

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Bolton fans were impressed by City. 

...they gave us a football lesson IMO, they out passed us, out fought us, looked fitter, and a yard quicker (our players looked like they had lead in the boots, or running through treacle), they were far more creative, far more attacking with 4 or 5 attackers at times 2nd half.

Serious question not a wind up or anything - player for player are Bristol City that much better than us in terms of their players being very comfortable on the ball, being much quicker, much more energetic, more physical, moving the ball a lot quicker and their players generally looking a division or so higher than ours - have they spend millions or is there manager better tactically ?

Because I actually thought that they were missing a few of their best players & had sold a really good LB - I didn't expect that today from them, but they seriously impressed me today in how they played football on the front foot for the full 90 mins, they ran rings round us for the majority of the game.

 

https://the-wanderer.co.uk/boards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26819&start=120

 

 

That’s good post and spot. I raised it as we need to play more balls like Pack played for the first goal . Dyche made the comment I made in the original post when his Burnley team were outplayed In Turkey but never really threatened  by team who bossed game but created little where it matters, yet Burnley came away with a 0 0. Sounds familiar with the way we play and very much like last season .  The midfield , who have to supply the balls for the forwards, still very much the same. 

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1 hour ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Bolton fans were impressed by City. 

...they gave us a football lesson IMO, they out passed us, out fought us, looked fitter, and a yard quicker (our players looked like they had lead in the boots, or running through treacle), they were far more creative, far more attacking with 4 or 5 attackers at times 2nd half.

Serious question not a wind up or anything - player for player are Bristol City that much better than us in terms of their players being very comfortable on the ball, being much quicker, much more energetic, more physical, moving the ball a lot quicker and their players generally looking a division or so higher than ours - have they spend millions or is there manager better tactically ?

Because I actually thought that they were missing a few of their best players & had sold a really good LB - I didn't expect that today from them, but they seriously impressed me today in how they played football on the front foot for the full 90 mins, they ran rings round us for the majority of the game.

 

https://the-wanderer.co.uk/boards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26819&start=120

 

 

Shame their manager didn't see it that way. Listening to his post match analysis I think he was watching the wrong match. It just goes to show how 14,000 people got it wrong

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8 minutes ago, Swede said:

Shame their manager didn't see it that way. Listening to his post match analysis I think he was watching the wrong match. It just goes to show how 14,000 people got it wrong

Noticed in his post match interview, he said Weimann's goal was offside.

Well he thought it was marginal, but Sky apparently told him it was. Will have to watch it again...unsure how he or Sly came to that conclusion.

Also Quest Highlights said a draw was about right in their summary which I found baffling given our sheer dominance...

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6 hours ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Bolton fans were impressed by City. 

...they gave us a football lesson IMO, they out passed us, out fought us, looked fitter, and a yard quicker (our players looked like they had lead in the boots, or running through treacle), they were far more creative, far more attacking with 4 or 5 attackers at times 2nd half.

Serious question not a wind up or anything - player for player are Bristol City that much better than us in terms of their players being very comfortable on the ball, being much quicker, much more energetic, more physical, moving the ball a lot quicker and their players generally looking a division or so higher than ours - have they spend millions or is there manager better tactically ?

Because I actually thought that they were missing a few of their best players & had sold a really good LB - I didn't expect that today from them, but they seriously impressed me today in how they played football on the front foot for the full 90 mins, they ran rings round us for the majority of the game.

 

https://the-wanderer.co.uk/boards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26819&start=120

 

 

Yes, a lot of their fans were absolutely raving about us walking out of the ground yesterday. They seemed very happy to have a got a point from the game even having been two up and talking about us as a team that will be 'up there' at the end.

 

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13 hours ago, DT The Optimist said:

I was not at game today and respect to those who made the trip.I ask this question  having listened to game and noting we had 70% possession on bbc web site.

Were we playing ineffective tippy tap football with little or no real end product. This was us last year. Sean Dyche commented this week that having loads possession means nothing as proved  by the World Cup .  Many teams won games with 25% possession.  We were for sure the better side but with so much of the ball we should be creating so much more 

The exact point I was making yesterday 

Far to many posters are sucked in by this tippy tappy rubbish. It looks great....but...like last season, we look toothless going forward for huge periods of the game 

Bolton are shocking. Fair play to City for getting back in the game but there are not many teams in this league who would have allowed us back in the game yesterday 

People on here are right when they say I shouldn't be judging them after 2 games....but I have genuine fears we have not improved one iota to last season. The first two games and we have already seen the same problems as last season rear it's ugly head 

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For me people are confusing what style of play we are looking for with ‘tippy tappy’ football.

For me, what we are trying to do, and did yesterday was not tippy tappy. Don’t confuse that with possession based football.

We were not camped out in the final third, passing it left to right, looking for the perfect goal ala Spain in the 00’s or Barcelona. 

 

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1 hour ago, maxjak said:

I quote from Bolton forum,    'at times they were passing it around like Barcelona'..........bit over the top perhaps?  But thanks alot Notlob, for the compliment.  ?

Another one said we were just a 'wannabe Arsenal', so all in the eye if the beholder I guess.

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11 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Noticed in his post match interview, he said Weimann's goal was offside.

Well he thought it was marginal, but Sky apparently told him it was. Will have to watch it again...unsure how he or Sly came to that conclusion.

Also Quest Highlights said a draw was about right in their summary which I found baffling given our sheer dominance...

One of his legs was offside! , it was a very tight decision, the sort of offside decision that if it went against us then this forum would be in meltdown?

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43 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not sure we're overly 'tippy tappy' as such, however we're technically excellent- particularly yesterday by the sounds of it (plus how we scored the goals).

What let us down yesterday was not taking enough of our chances. Plus, most importantly, we were weak on particularly their first goal and arguably their 2nd.

I listened to the match on RB and with commentary only it’s almost impossible to understand just how either team is playing. You can get a gist of who’s on top but that’s about all so I’m delighted to read that we were technically excellent. That’s a good sign as is coming back fro 2-0 down.

Not taking chances is an age old complaint from numerous managers since the invention of the game and common enough in City’s case!

Yesterday was only the second Championship match and it take several more before the team gel fully and hopefully we’ll see a goal scorer  developing over the next 10/15 games or so.

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4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I listened to the match on RB and with commentary only it’s almost impossible to understand just how either team is playing. You can get a gist of who’s on top but that’s about all so I’m delighted to read that we were technically excellent. That’s a good sign as is coming back fro 2-0 down.

Not taking chances is an age old complaint from numerous managers since the invention of the game and common enough in City’s case!

Yesterday was only the second Championship match and it take several more before the team gel fully and hopefully we’ll see a goal scorer  developing over the next 10/15 games or so.

Defence a more likely shortfall here then. Or perhaps protection of defence by the midfield, too big gaps for their 2nd etc.

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9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Defence a more likely shortfall here then. Or perhaps protection of defence by the midfield, too big gaps for their 2nd etc.

Our defence was leaky last season as well even with Flint and JB in the line up but I posted just now it’ll take the team several games to gel. Hopefully the new defensive line up will settle quickly.

Kelly, Baker, Webster and Hunt won’t have played regularly as unit yet. Add Wright and Dasilva to equation and it looks pretty decent on paper anyway.

Hopefully Smith will fit enough to start before long - hopefully against Boro. His presence in midfield  makes a big difference as we saw last season when he had to play at RB.

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16 hours ago, DT The Optimist said:

Were we playing ineffective tippy tap football with little or no real end product. This was us last year. 

The same thing was posted on here last season (or the season before) as well. Last season though, we then got better results than in 16/17.

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On ‎11‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 21:50, DT The Optimist said:

I was not at game today and respect to those who made the trip.I ask this question  having listened to game and noting we had 70% possession on bbc web site.

Were we playing ineffective tippy tap football with little or no real end product. This was us last year. 

It is not Bristol City any year. City are not a team, and have not been a team that monopolise possession. Last season average possession was 52% and it hovers around 50% for the last five years.

To put it another way this cannot be Bristol City last season, because in no game last season (or in the last five years) have Bristol City had a 70% possession stat for ninety minutes of football. It is extraordinary. 

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Just need to play 15 odd yards up the field. Tippy tappy.. perhaps at times. But some of our passing and movement was excellent. Pack dominant and looks in his best ever form. Wore the captains armband well. 

We will run teams ragged. When we do we need to be clinical when we have those periods. 

We have set up our stall. Tempo in possession and high press without it. 

Will be a long physical season for our boys.... They look fit!

Stevo

 

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On ‎11‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 21:50, DT The Optimist said:

I was not at game today and respect to those who made the trip.I ask this question  having listened to game and noting we had 70% possession on bbc web site.

Were we playing ineffective tippy tap football with little or no real end product. This was us last year. Sean Dyche commented this week that having loads possession means nothing as proved  by the World Cup .  Many teams won games with 25% possession.  We were for sure the better side but with so much of the ball we should be creating so much more 

You sure about that user name?

 

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4 hours ago, WayOutWest said:

Just need to play 15 odd yards up the field. Tippy tappy.. perhaps at times. But some of our passing and movement was excellent. Pack dominant and looks in his best ever form. Wore the captains armband well. 

We will run teams ragged. When we do we need to be clinical when we have those periods. 

We have set up our stall. Tempo in possession and high press without it. 

Will be a long physical season for our boys.... They look fit!

Stevo

 

And sometimes you just have to be patient looking to penetrate. 

Bolton allow you to play in front of them. They allow you the ball. Its hard to run teams ragged who sit in, its hard to increase tempo versus teams that deny space in then final third … Its simply another challenge.

Its no reason to change an approach after 180 minutes of football.

Teams having more possession than City last season were promoted (two), one having less was promoted. The OP poster stated "  Were we playing ineffective tippy tap football with little or no real end product. This was us last year. Sean Dyche commented this week that having loads possession means nothing as proved  by the World Cup .  Many teams won games with 25% possession." It does not bare scrutiny. It was not many teams. No team got to the semi final having 25% possession. Looking at top leagues England, Germany, Spain all won by possession dominating teams proves nothing either. Fans should look at players and systems.

Little detail BCFC and tippy tappy (whatever it means)? Bristol City's last season average passing length was one metre shorter than? CARDIFF. A fact. As Bristol City passing length increased from January the team became more ineffectual. 

Lots of detail and % there but its about approach, players and being committed to a style of play and that applies to successful teams be they Wolves, Fulham or Cardiff. 

 

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I like it when we try to keep hold of the ball. It makes us hard to play against, and it's a tactic that few teams at this level are used to dealing with. My problem with it is that it's useless without a Plan B, because eventually someone will figure out a way through and that will lay the blueprint for every team that you play next.

Obviously, no end product is a huge problem with this type of play, but it's at least a solvable problem - get a forward that will score 20+ goals a season in the Championship and supply them. It's not a cheap problem, but it's easily solved with a possession-heavy type of play. My biggest concern with LJ teams is the lack of a Plan B, as it's a harder problem to solve.

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On 11/08/2018 at 22:23, Alessandro said:

The reason we had as much possession was as much about Bolton as it was about us. They were not only happy to sit back and play without the ball but they didn't threaten us going forwards when in open play, so they would relinquish it back to us or we would tackle them.

We looked to build from the back, with the keeper giving it to one of Baker or Webster who hung back left and right. They would either bring it out and look for a ball into the channel or be supported by one of the midfield.

Pack dropped off, Brownhill dropped off, Pato dropped off to link up. Once we got into the final 3rd we generally found the Bolton brick wall today, but we still got crosses in and IMO still looked to pass and move quickly to find spaces, won a fair number of free-kicks in good positions in doing so. Brownhill's good long distance effort coming from some good movement. 

We may have lack that cutting edge in the final 3rd, but let's be realistic about this division, any team can put 11 men behind the ball and be very hard to break down. Even if we judge them as a shit team because they offer little going forward, they can be organised and defensive and make it difficult for even the best attacks. 

Did we over complicate our play? IMO, no. Did we pass it around unnecessarily when we could have had a pop or stuck in a cross. Not on many occasions that I can recall. 

Spot on how I saw it too. Add to which Bolton’s tactic of reacting to any incisive change of pace by simply stopping it by whatever means necessary. Six or was it seven bookings (and a huge foul count) says it all. Made it very difficult, and of course it’ll be other teams that benefit when some of those bookings turn into suspensions. Not sure nowadays but is there a fine coming Bolton’s way too? Again, no consolation for us. 

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14 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

I like it when we try to keep hold of the ball. It makes us hard to play against, and it's a tactic that few teams at this level are used to dealing with. My problem with it is that it's useless without a Plan B, because eventually someone will figure out a way through and that will lay the blueprint for every team that you play next.

Obviously, no end product is a huge problem with this type of play, but it's at least a solvable problem - get a forward that will score 20+ goals a season in the Championship and supply them. It's not a cheap problem, but it's easily solved with a possession-heavy type of play. My biggest concern with LJ teams is the lack of a Plan B, as it's a harder problem to solve.

I believe we already have that 20 goal forward in Diedhou.

Weiman has started well and could get 20 as well.

 

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