Jagielka's Red Card - has the game gone too far re tackles?

[Harry]

16 minutes ago, downendcity said:

I think I'm right in saying that being the last man has no bearing. It's whether the defender prevented a clear goal scoring opportunity and pundits still make the same mistake.

As for the tackle itself, not surprised a red was given as in the current climate that seems to be the norm. One thing that I found surprising was the relative lack of red cards in the world cup, and how the referees seemed happy to let far more go than referees in the premier league.

Was it that FIFA wanted to ensure their world cup spectacle was not spoiled by games being abbreviated by fouls, bookings and red cards?

 

 

Technically correct but Semantics. What I mean by saying “last man” is essentially that there’s a goal scoring opportunity. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

34 minutes ago, downendcity said:

I think I'm right in saying that being the last man has no bearing. It's whether the defender prevented a clear goal scoring opportunity and pundits still make the same mistake.

As for the tackle itself, not surprised a red was given as in the current climate that seems to be the norm. One thing that I found surprising was the relative lack of red cards in the world cup, and how the referees seemed happy to let far more go than referees in the premier league.

Was it that FIFA wanted to ensure their world cup spectacle was not spoiled by games being abbreviated by fouls, bookings and red cards?

 

 

This. 100% this- only 2 straight reds given in 64 games!

Which surprises me a bit, given PL is usually dubbed more physical than International/European football...changing times, eh?

[Denbury Red]

In real time I thought it looked a bit harsh. 

When they showed it in slo mo the Ref got it spot on - the way Jagielka’s studs made Jota’s ankle bend was near in horrific. 

If that had happened to a City player most on here would have been incensed if a red card had not been brandished!

[downendcity]

27 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

This. 100% this- only 2 straight reds given in 64 games!

Which surprises me a bit, given PL is usually dubbed more physical than International/European football...changing times, eh?

Not a surprise Mr P.

Shows that when referees officiate games under orders, we see the sort of decisions we have over the last few seasons, where physical challenges of any sort are fouls, and relatively innocuous challenges fall foul of yellow and red cards. How many games are spoiled because of over officious refereeing?

By comparison, the world cup was enjoyable because games were allowed to flow, there was physical contact and tackles were allowed, but reckless and dangerous challenges were properly punished.

We also saw referees publishing one of the most annoying offences - holding/wrestling attackers at free kicks and corners. Football administrators in this country should perhaps take note, and address cheating of this sort instead of persrciptive directions that take any sort of physical contact out of the game but reduce it as the game it has been through most of it's history.

[TBW]

3 hours ago, Harry said:

The tackle itself isn’t a red. But there is the fair argument that he’s last man. 

"Last man" isn't a rule. 

[downendcity]

5 minutes ago, TBW said:

"Last man" isn't a rule. 

It is if you are a TV pundit.

[Cowshed]

4 hours ago, The Batman said:

Could not see a thread on this

Watched MOTD on Sunday morning and I cannot for the life of me believe that Shearer agreed that it was a red card. Bit rich coming from someone who would have given Hulk Hogan a run for his money with the amount of elbows he gave his opponents.

I thought it was an excellent recovery tackle - for those who have not seen it, Jagielka miss-controlled a pass and Jota pounced on the loose ball, which lead to Jagielka having to make the tackle.

Course then they slowed it down and expanded on the contact once Jagielka had won the ball to make it appear worse than it was.

Now I could be in a minority here because of the way the games rules have gone, but for those who did see it, what do you think, was it a justified red card? Should the game now just basically outlaw slide tackles? Was it a bad referring decision? I leave up to my fellow OTIBers to decide.

Yes. The rule should be rewritten to give more guidance to players - Outlawing slide tackles.

Jagielka won the ball. 

Everything that follows is contention and subjective. 

A player cannot go into a slide tackle and make split time decisions A/ Will I make contact with my opponent. B/ What type of contact C/What part of my opponents anatomy will I make contact with.

In regards to C Jagielka would have to calculate where his opponents standing leg is and where it is going to be and if he will make contact with it after winning the ball. There is a nonsense there.

 

[Harry]

28 minutes ago, TBW said:

"Last man" isn't a rule. 

I know. See post #31

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Technically correct but Semantics. What I mean by saying “last man” is essentially that there’s a goal scoring opportunity. 

No probs.

It is much easier to measure whether a defender is the "last man" than it is to determine whether the tackle stopped a "clear goalscoring opportunity", which is why I think so many pundits still use it.

[MarcusX]

2 hours ago, Denbury Red said:

In real time I thought it looked a bit harsh. 

When they showed it in slo mo the Ref got it spot on - the way Jagielka’s studs made Jota’s ankle bend was near in horrific. 

If that had happened to a City player most on here would have been incensed if a red card had not been brandished!

It’s easy to make something look bad in slow motion though! I bet plenty of good tackles look a bit sore when slowed down.

I can’t believe many people watched that in real time and were screaming for a red card. Yellow with a talking to at worst in my opinion, but I don’t think it’s even a foul.

[BS4 on Tour...]

10 hours ago, The Batman said:

Could not see a thread on this

Watched MOTD on Sunday morning and I cannot for the life of me believe that Shearer agreed that it was a red card....

Shearer said it was a red card because of the way the game has changed, he also said it would have only been a yellow in the days when he played....

[1bristolcity]

10 hours ago, Flint says No said:

Thought it was a red card purely because he put his studs up immediately putting the player in danger

Of course you do, it was a yellow that's all if that, anyone who understands the game will know that it was just a challenge for the ball, if they are sending off players for that , indeed the game has gone.

[shelts]

An easy red card 

[RedRock]

Off.

Looks like a tackle that could result in a 14 week layoff to me and we don’t want any of those - particularly to players who we’ve only recently signed.

[Sixtyseconds]

Won the ball clean and fair.

Time to ban tackling.

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, Sixtyseconds said:

Won the ball clean and fair.

Time to ban tackling.

Don't agree.

World Cup had some quite physical games, didn't see many red cards there did we?

[Sixtyseconds]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Don't agree.

World Cup had some quite physical games, didn't see many red cards there did we?

Yes.

But no British refs.

Wonder why?

When you see hard and fair = Red here.

Wonder not.
 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Sixtyseconds said:

Yes.

But no British refs.

Wonder why?

When you see hard and fair = Red here.

Wonder not.
 

 

Maybe it was just a poor decision- think it was fairly marginal myself- seems to have split opinion on here too.

Some refs give it, some don't- I reckon if you ran that decision in front of 10 randomly selected PL refs, 6 would give it, 4 wouldn't. Something like that ratio.

Look at that Cech tackle...if Jagielka is a red, surely that is too. Or vice versa.

[The Batman]

7 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Shearer said it was a red card because of the way the game has changed, he also said it would have only been a yellow in the days when he played....

In my zombiefied state due to my daughter waking me up, must have missed that bit.

[Monkeh]

Sliding studs up and just catches him red card every day of the week for me

[Trueredsupporter]

Won the ball and the momentum of both players takes them into each other and not much different than Moore and Pele. Good challenge in a what is supposed to be a contact sport.

[Sixtyseconds]

10 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Maybe it was just a poor decision- think it was fairly marginal myself- seems to have split opinion on here too.

Some refs give it, some don't- I reckon if you ran that decision in front of 10 randomly selected PL refs, 6 would give it, 4 wouldn't. Something like that ratio.

Look at that Cech tackle...if Jagielka is a red, surely that is too. Or vice versa.

5-5

6-4

I wouldn't want those people marking my Sons homework.

He won the ball.

Christ knows how you make a sliding tackle if that's a foul.

Lie on the ground.

Face up.

Start rolling towards the player in possession and hope the ball hits you.

But remember to keep your studs down.

And do not leave the ground.

 

[Three Lions]

 

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 11:58, Harry said:

It wasn’t high, wasn’t over the top of the ball, wasn’t an out of control lunge and wasn’t intentionally trying to hurt an opponent. It was a genuine effort to play the ball and he missed. It’s a yellow card. Ridiculous red and I’m amazed that Shearer thought so. 

Good points. Yellow meh if he missed it but he gets the ball. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, Sixtyseconds said:

5-5

6-4

I wouldn't want those people marking my Sons homework.

He won the ball.

Christ knows how you make a sliding tackle if that's a foul.

Lie on the ground.

Face up.

Start rolling towards the player in possession and hope the ball hits you.

But remember to keep your studs down.

 And do not leave the ground.

  

It's an estimate- a balance of probability. I think the ratio wouldn't be far off that if you asked 10 PL refs- these days there seems to be a fair bit of inconsistency.

Would be interesting to know what a VAR ref would have decided.

[Cowshed]

 

A foul?

[Trueredsupporter]

Its a foul and sending off in England. 

[Portland Bill]

On 13/08/2018 at 12:20, El Hombrecito said:

There is no such rule. The applicable law in this instance would be:

"denying a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent whose overall movement is towards the offender's goal by an offence punishable by a free kick"

I don't think it was either a obvious goal scoring opportunity or that his overall movement was towards goal.

Therefore the challenge would have to be either "serious foul play" or "violent conduct".

Personally, I don't think it would be covered by either of those offences, but an argument could be made that it falls under the following, which is classed as serious foul play:

"Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play"

So, in conclusion: It might have been the correct decision, or it might not 

It was 100% a clear goal scoring opportunity, the striker was in on goal 25 yards out, with no defender within 15 yards!. That’s why Jagielka lunged in.............. he knew the consequences of losing the ball there! 

If it’s a foul ( which it clearly was) it’s a red. 

 

[Three Lions]

59 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

It was 100% a clear goal scoring opportunity, the striker was in on goal 25 yards out, with no defender within 15 yards!. That’s why Jagielka lunged in.............. he knew the consequences of losing the ball there! 

If it’s a foul ( which it clearly was) it’s a red. 

 

Jagielka got the ball first. so next is it dangerous? really was not high or over the ball. All sliding tackle are lunges and most will make contact with the opponent. The Rooney tackle on here is a banger ball and man. Do people want a game where that no longer exists?