Johnson - No new striker incoming (Merged)

[lenred]

5 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

But building a team, any team, in any walk of life, is all about balance.  You need leaders, you need thinkers, you need doers, you need one or two mavericks, it's all about getting the mix right.  What you don't need is people who don't want to be there and/or bad attitudes.

My worry is where the leaders are.  Who were our leaders last year?  Bailey Wright, Flint, Korey?  Who is doing the shouting and geeing up on the field at the moment?  I don't think for a moment that any of the departures are to do with Lee securing his position - for their own perfectly valid reasons Flint, Reid, Bryan and Djuric all wanted to go - but the question is whether we have the right mix.  From what I've seen Weimann and Watkins don't appear to be leaders, Eisa is young and learning, as is Adelukan to a degree, the goalkeeper doesn't strike me as having been particular assertive so far (though maybe that will come as he gets to know people better), which leaves Webster and Hunt.  Are they the characters we need to make the whole thing work?

I'd have a fully fit Bailey Wright back in this team like a shot.

Rocking the boat was a poor choice of term on my part. See my post above. But like you say you need those who will challenge and who will provide leadership. We don’t have those characters at the club and this despite LJ saying it was a key area identified for improvement.  

[BRISTOL86]

6 minutes ago, lenred said:

Football is an aggressive game. It needs people who will say their piece as opposed to wallflowers, happy to go with the status quo. Rocking the boat or if you prefer challenging hierarchy and questioning methods is a good thing and should be actively encouraged if it brings about a positive outcome. A good manager should encourage challenge. I’m guessing LJ doesn’t judging by who he has got rid of and who he has brought in. But we shall see......

Is there any evidence of this being the case at BCFC or is it a complete guess?

Personally I can’t see that any of the outgoing players bar Flint might be any more ‘assertive’ shall we say than those brought in? For example Weimann considerably more experienced at bigger clubs than us than Reid. 

I can’t see any real evidence to support the notion that the squad has been ‘stripped of character’. We showed plenty of character for the good half of last season, and then none of it for the second half with no loss of personnel. 

Seems like a conversation that is only happening as a knee jerk reaction to 2/3 games. 

[Monkeh]

26 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

So if you were SL you'd sack LJ today then Monkeh? 

yes I would of sacked before the post match interview of the 5-5 debacle against hull

[Cowshed]

3 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

Did I hear that right?

Not getting a loan striker in. 

You cannot be serious! 

LJs developed a team of ‘mini me’s’. Little height, power or physical presence. The consequences of that weren’t difficult to predict in a game that is rapidly evolving along the lines of Premiership Rugby ‘power play’. If our Club weren’t aware of the implications of packing the squad with lightweights then the first three games should be the necessary slap in the face.

Someone, seriously, needs to get a grip at our Club. 

 

Wolves and Fulham were hardly big sides. The game is not evolving in the manner you feel it is.

A rudimentary way of putting things but Bristol City got worse the heavier and bigger they went up front last season. Bristol City's best football last season was played with Bobby Reid up front.

[Phileas Fogg]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Wolves and Fulham were hardly big sides. The game is not evolving in the manner you feel it is.

A rudimentary way of putting things but Bristol City got worse the heavier and bigger they went up front last season. Bristol City's best football last season was played with Bobby Reid up front.

Yep, with Paterson just behind him too.

The combined weight of the pair of them is probably around 20 stone - or about equivalent to one Steve Evans.

[Merrick's Marvels]

51 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

last season

Fammy 6ft 2

pisano 6ft 1 

Baker 6ft 2

Steel 6ft

 

oh and Lee is 5ft 6, almost all of his signings have been bigger then him,

 

Nitpick, by all means, but the over-arching point being made - we have a naive, insecure manager - is profoundly true imo and way beyond the usual level of facile debate hereabouts.      

[ScottishRed]

42 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

To me, ‘character’ is digging deep in the face of adversity or rallying the troops when our backs are against the wall. Someone who’d run through a brick wall for his team mates, that sort of thing.

Flint I would definitely put in that bracket.

Completely agree - and I don't see many in the current squad at all.

Apparently, we lacked 'leaders' at the back end of last season - I cannot see how that has changed with the players we have brought in to any real extent.

Or was that comment yet another piece of media friendly deflection.

[lenred]

5 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Is there any evidence of this being the case at BCFC or is it a complete guess?

Personally I can’t see that any of the outgoing players bar Flint might be any more ‘assertive’ shall we say than those brought in? For example Weimann considerably more experienced at bigger clubs than us than Reid. 

I can’t see any real evidence to support the notion that the squad has been ‘stripped of character’. We showed plenty of character for the good half of last season, and then none of it for the second half with no loss of personnel. 

Seems like a conversation that is only happening as a knee jerk reaction to 2/3 games. 

You make a valid point about the second half of season.  But Flint has gone, Wilbraham has gone and now Bryan has gone. All players that I would deem as having those leadership qualities on the pitch and I dare say off it as well. Effusive characters. Can’t see that those who have been brought in have those qualities. But we shall see. I’m certainly not reacting to the results thus far, just agreeing with the fact that they haven’t been replaced, and that our squad currently looks to lack real leaders - which LJ himself stated as being a key area of recruitment. We shall see and hopefully it all goes ok but it has to be an area of concern at the moment.  

[bcfcnick]

I don't think we will be short of goals.  Adelakun looks a very exciting signing and will provide goals if he gets to play and with O'dowda not getting back to his best just yet then he may get a chance when fit.   Centre back and central midfielder are the two areas that raise question marks.

I don't think it was sensible to loan out Vyner was sensible given he had a very good season on loan to Plymouth and we are short of Centre backs.  The Bailey Wright prolonged injury is a concern as he appears a calming and motivational player. He got some unfair criticism but it seems he was carrying an injury at that time but when fully fit t coincided with some solid defensive performances.

Ironically when we played him at RB and Magnússon as LB we played with four centre backs and we were very solid defensively for a time.  Last night it switched to four full-backs as LK is at his best and more experienced at this level as a full-back.   We still scored goals throughout the team with four centre backs and it was a bit of a unique goal threat as a unit given Flint's contribution and Hörður's long throws. 

[Monkeh]

1 minute ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Nitpick, by all means, but the over-arching point being made - we have a naive, insecure manager - is profoundly true imo and way beyond the usual level of facile debate hereabouts.      

its not nit picking its responding based on fact, the statement was Johnson was getting rid of height in the team as he was insecure, yet the vast majority of his signings are taller then him with the majority of first team signings being over 6ft,

To say its because he's insecure is frankly moronic and people spouting it are stupid,

We sold 3 players to 3 teams much higher in the pecking order then us for a vast amount of money,

If Neil Warnock, Asne Wenger Harry Redknapp Fat Sam, Alex Neil or countless others been manager we'd still of sold the players

[JoeAman08]

58 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Not sure how people can read things like this into our squad - we only get to see them on social media and whatever they say to interviews. Their output is all so controlled I think it's a bit of a stretch to read into personalities that much based on that.

Not fact. Just feels that way to me. Maybe I will see more on the pitch in due time. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

19 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

its not nit picking its responding based on fact, the statement was Johnson was getting rid of height in the team as he was insecure, yet the vast majority of his signings are taller then him with the majority of first team signings being over 6ft,

To say its because he's insecure is frankly moronic and people spouting it are stupid,

We sold 3 players to 3 teams much higher in the pecking order then us for a vast amount of money,

If Neil Warnock, Asne Wenger Harry Redknapp Fat Sam, Alex Neil or countless others been manager we'd still of sold the players

Again - you and others nit picked on specific points rather than respond - as I wrote first time round - to the over arching point being made. The over arching point being made lies at the root of the team's inconsistencies, that is: we have a naive, insecure manager.

I'm here all day so how many times would you like me to repeat it for you - the over arching point.

If you can't see that this manager has deep insecurities, or how they manifest themselves, so be it. 

This is a classic example of what I meant by facile debate - someone wants to discuss psychology and the counter arguments are based on how tall our centre half is or how many games the new signings have under their belt. Jesus wept. 

   

[Cowshed]

12 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Again - you and others nit picked on specific points rather than respond - as I wrote first time round - to the over arching point being made. The over arching point being made lies at the root of the team's inconsistencies, that is: we have a naive, insecure manager.

I'm here all day so how many times would you like me to repeat it for you - the over arching point.

If you can't see that this manager has deep insecurities, or how they manifest themselves, so be it. 

This is a classic example of what I meant by facile debate - someone wants to discuss psychology and the counter arguments are based on how tall our centre half is or how many games the new signings have under their belt. Jesus wept. 

   

Moving towards a philosophy can mean a move towards smaller more mobile players. The psychology can be that the Manager believes that smaller and mobile allied to technical match best the football he wants to play. 

The same can be said for selling experience, technical and physical skills if they do not meet the eventual team need.

 

[Monkeh]

24 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Again - you and others nit picked on specific points rather than respond - as I wrote first time round - to the over arching point being made. The over arching point being made lies at the root of the team's inconsistencies, that is: we have a naive, insecure manager.

I'm here all day so how many times would you like me to repeat it for you - the over arching point.

If you can't see that this manager has deep insecurities, or how they manifest themselves, so be it. 

This is a classic example of what I meant by facile debate - someone wants to discuss psychology and the counter arguments are based on how tall our centre half is or how many games the new signings have under their belt. Jesus wept. 

   

on what basis is he naive and insecure what proof do you have? where are the facts? and for the recorded I wanted Johnson sacked and have wanted him sacked since 2016/17 season

[BRISTOL86]

44 minutes ago, lenred said:

You make a valid point about the second half of season.  But Flint has gone, Wilbraham has gone and now Bryan has gone. All players that I would deem as having those leadership qualities on the pitch and I dare say off it as well. Effusive characters. Can’t see that those who have been brought in have those qualities. But we shall see. I’m certainly not reacting to the results thus far, just agreeing with the fact that they haven’t been replaced, and that our squad currently looks to lack real leaders - which LJ himself stated as being a key area of recruitment. We shall see and hopefully it all goes ok but it has to be an area of concern at the moment.  

Can’t agree at all about Bryan having any leadership qualities on the pitch whatsoever. He was one of if not the worst offender post Christmas for looking like he couldn’t care less IMO. 

I’m not arguing that any improvement has been made but I also can’t see that the squad has been stripped of character. IMO it’s largely as it was last season bar the removal of Flint

[Cowshed]

9 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Can’t agree at all about Bryan having any leadership qualities on the pitch whatsoever. He was one of if not the worst offender post Christmas for looking like he couldn’t care less IMO. 

I’m not arguing that any improvement has been made but I also can’t see that the squad has been stripped of character. IMO it’s largely as it was last season bar the removal of Flint

Joe Bryan has obvious leadership qualities on the pitch. Simply wanting to play to feet is a leadership quality. Being assured in possession under pressure and keeping the ball are signs of a player with a high level of mental toughness and character.

Being able to get your head up, scan, move and pass while the team you play for are failing is why Joe Bryan was such a player in demand. 

[red panda]

30 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Again - you and others nit picked on specific points rather than respond - as I wrote first time round - to the over arching point being made. The over arching point being made lies at the root of the team's inconsistencies, that is: we have a naive, insecure manager.

I'm here all day so how many times would you like me to repeat it for you - the over arching point.

If you can't see that this manager has deep insecurities, or how they manifest themselves, so be it. 

This is a classic example of what I meant by facile debate - someone wants to discuss psychology and the counter arguments are based on how tall our centre half is or how many games the new signings have under their belt. Jesus wept. 

   

Surely all managers are insecure, that's the nature of the job. LJ knows at least that he's part of set up with a clear philosophy and a supportive owner. As for naivety, that's a matter of opinion. Managers have to make decisions, some work, some don't. That's life. If LJ got every call right he'd be at Barca by now. Just look back to all those who were calling for Pato to be subbed before he equalised on Saturday 

[BRISTOL86]

5 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Joe Bryan has obvious leadership qualities on the pitch. Simply wanting to play to feet is a leadership quality. Being assured in possession under pressure and keeping the ball are signs of a player with a high level of mental toughness and character.

Being able to get your head up, scan, move and pass while the team you play for are failing is why Joe Bryan was such a player in demand. 

None of that has anything to do with leadership in anything but an incredibly tenuous sense. By that logic Flint has no leadership qualities as he’s not too comfortable with the ball at his feet, whilst Tomlin is a natural leader due to his technical ability. 

[Ivorguy]

His insecurity is manifest in interviews after defeats where he has a tendency to grin inanely at the camera and mouth platitudes about certain players not giving enough. His post Plymouth interview is a classic of the genre

[Monkeh]

2 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

None of that has anything to do with leadership in anything but an incredibly tenuous sense. By that logic Flint has no leadership qualities as he’s not too comfortable with the ball at his feet, whilst Tomlin is a natural leader due to his technical ability. 

real leadership qualities is to inspire and encourage others to do better and help them perform better, out of the current squad I'd say Smith has those

[Merrick's Marvels]

5 minutes ago, red panda said:

Surely all managers are insecure, that's the nature of the job. LJ knows at least that he's part of set up with a clear philosophy and a supportive owner. As for naivety, that's a matter of opinion. Managers have to make decisions, some work, some don't. That's life. If LJ got every call right he'd be at Barca by now. Just look back to all those who were calling for Pato to be subbed before he equalised on Saturday 

That's not the insecurity being talked about - it's about his insecurities as a person.

Yes the naive bit is a matter of opinion. In mine, setting out a passing style that requires us to play like Barcelona for it to be successful when, quite frequently, we can't match the way Brentford do it a lot of the time, is naive. Imo, a more pragmatic approach is required for this set of players to be successful over a full Championship season. Other examples are available upon request.

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

None of that has anything to do with leadership in anything but an incredibly tenuous sense. By that logic Flint has no leadership qualities as he’s not too comfortable with the ball at his feet, whilst Tomlin is a natural leader due to his technical ability. 

Sorry it is leadership. It is not tenuous at all. Aden Flint has obvious Leadership qualities and carried out a fundamental role - winning first balls. 

Carrying out a role is Leadership. Being a role model is leadership.

If a player cannot carry out a teams game plan because his lack of technical ability he will struggle to influence his team mates. Social cohesion and influence in a team setting follows individuals task cohesion. 

A player who can still summon skill in times of stress and poor form has leadership qualities. That required skill can be simple, quick, early, receive, retain release and repeat .. Looking to do that , demonstrating this is how we play is Leadership. 

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

36 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Moving towards a philosophy can mean a move towards smaller more mobile players. The psychology can be that the Manager believes that smaller and mobile allied to technical match best the football he wants to play. 

The same can be said for selling experience, technical and physical skills if they do not meet the eventual team need.

 

The psychology referred to is that of the man himself - what drives him as a person, not as a Coach. Apart from that, I agree with you, eg. I think the no.1 reason this Coach has been looking to move Flint on for some time is because he wants his centre halves to pass it like Rio Ferdinand and is willing to sacrifice other attributes ie. Webster not as strong in the air but better in possession. Naive in my opinion. Pragmatism is required.

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Sorry it is leadership. It is not tenuous at all. Aden Flint has obvious Leadership qualities and carried out a fundamental role - winning first balls. 

Carrying out a role is Leadership. Being a role model is leadership.

If a player cannot carry out a teams game plan because his lack of technical ability he will struggle to influence his team mates. Social cohesion and influence in a team setting follows individuals task cohesion. 

A player who can still summon skill in times of stress and poor form has leadership qualities. That required skill can be simple, quick, early, receive, retain release and repeat .. Looking to do that , demonstrating this is how we play is Leadership. 

 

Agree to disagree mate. Bryan has displayed nothing on the pitch whatsoever this year that marks him out as a leader IMO. 

Playing like you don’t really want to be there does not, in my book, constitute leadership in any way. 

[The Original OTIB]

I suspect that our inevitable 0-5 thrashing will come earlier this year.

[RedRock]

1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Yep, with Paterson just behind him too.

The combined weight of the pair of them is probably around 20 stone - or about equivalent to one Steve Evans.

.. and could Pato sustain his form through a season? Did not virtually all other Championship Clubs find a way in the second part of the season to nullify our ‘lightweight’ threat (and that was before Flinty and Milan went)? Assume you went to the Ipswich home game that was one of the worst borefests (and that includes loads of games in the SoD/Pulis eras)  I’d ever watched with Milan the only player to break the tedium.

I said before the summer break Pato ( and the other lightweights) needed to go to the same place Bobby and Joe went to the previous season’s summer recess to toughen/bulk up. I said I’d judge LJ, in part, on whether he had the management abilities to insist that happened. It didn’t. 

[Cowshed]

7 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

The psychology referred to is that of the man himself - what drives him as a person, not as a Coach. Apart from that, I agree with you, eg. I think the no.1 reason this Coach has been looking to move Flint on for some time is because he wants his centre halves to pass it like Rio Ferdinand and is willing to sacrifice other attributes ie. Webster not as strong in the air but better in possession. Naive in my opinion. Pragmatism is required.

I hope his football ideals drive him as a person.

I favoured Flint and another better possession. In opposition to that thinking a team proved last season promotion can be achieved with relatively small centre backs, very small v Flint.

People are far too dogmatic about size and power v technique. 

[Sturny]

5 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

I suspect that our inevitable 0-5 thrashing will come earlier this year.

Don't be silly. We're an improved squad this year. It'll be 0-4 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Joe Bryan has obvious leadership qualities on the pitch. Simply wanting to play to feet is a leadership quality. Being assured in possession under pressure and keeping the ball are signs of a player with a high level of mental toughness and character.

Being able to get your head up, scan, move and pass while the team you play for are failing is why Joe Bryan was such a player in demand. 

So being assured in possession under pressure and keeping the ball are signs of leadership, toughness and character.. then I guess Pack is a leader, Weimann is a leader, Hunt is a leader, Webster is a leader, Maenpaa is a leader, Walsh is a leader, Smith is a leader, O'Dowda is a leader... I got it, we need less leaders. 

What you've described is technique. Technique makes you look like you have space, time and ability. Our players have an abundance of that, but we don't have leaders in just the same way Joe Bryan was never and has never displayed leadership to enough of an extent to call it an attribute.

[Williams' Penalty]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

His insecurity is manifest in interviews after defeats where he has a tendency to grin inanely at the camera and mouth platitudes about certain players not giving enough. His post Plymouth interview is a classic of the genre

Thank you for this, really made me laugh. Typical OTIB. Even people who hate Johnson have to admit, he is good infront of camera and gives good interviews.

The media constantly give him opportunities to appear on events that other managers would not have, purely because he comes across so well.

He isn't smiling because he has some psycological insecurity, it's just a style of communication, and usually comes when he is explaining a certain point. It's a technique that is advocated in the famous book "How to win friends and manipulate people" that many politicians and public figures have used to help them with securing a good public backing. (I'm not saying Lee has read this book, but just saying it may be a natural thing to him/is not a sign of weakness but a style that IMO works well.)

Personally I think his post Plymouth interview is a classic of the "him being bang on the money genre."

He said someting along the lines of: we have a new team, have lost 3-4 key players and need to hit the groud running. These first 3 games have shown our strengths and weaknesses and we need to work to amplify the strengths and minimise the weaknesses. What's wrong with that? 

Also as an aside, I've only seen one game live this season so far, but I noted that Wiemann was very vocal, but maybe that was just me. Seemed to have plenty of leadership qualities.