Realism or Negativity..?

[Sturny]

3 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

I suppose it's ironic when you understand you're wrong.

I’m glad you have some self reflection atleast. Why do facts trigger you so much my friend? Does it not fit your agenda that LJ is doing an excellent job? 

[ScottishRed]

2 hours ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Cobblers Huddersfield did it 18 months ago, and so did Brighton, you just need a plan and stick to it. 

Check out the investments Brighton made.

Check out how Huddersfield invested in the loan market.

Bighton also have a very highly regarded, experienced manager...........oh and David Wagner used to be the Dortmund  U23 Manager, which for me trumps Oldham and Barnsley!

There are no worthy comparisons.

The plan to get promoted, if that is the ambition, is hugely flawed.

But let's stick to the plan......and let's see where that gets us.

[Beni71]

5 hours ago, KeepUpLino said:

What pedigree did Bourmouth have then ffs.. this is another excuse!

May be your right and we should break the rules.

This sounds absurd but Bournemouth’s success i personally think is down to Howe. When he leaves I think they will crash and burn.

This won’t be a popular opinion but I also think LJ is in a similar position. When he leaves( next 18 months) I think we will struggle.

For me the thing LJ gives the club is a top to bottom management approach across the academy to 1st XI. 

No exscuses but a different perspective that is based on continuity and progressive growth.

[Beni71]

5 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Reality suggests a model based upon a locally born owner with no foreign/additional investment or parachute payments running a self-sustaining financially prudent, profit-making club with a stream of home-grown academy products and lower league talent filling first team places vacated by departing star players sold at a good profit to rival clubs delivering a year on year improvement in league position and eventual promotion from one of the most competitive, dog-eat-dog divisions to the richest one in world football is about 5 or 6 years too late/now out of date and more unlikely than ever before.

It might well have worked a few years ago. It did for other clubs, Burnley for example. But this "philosophy" was dreamed up at least five years ago and the Championship is not what it was when we were promoted into it, let alone when we were last relegated from it. It has moved on, the "ante" has been upped considerably.

It feels as though we are running just to stand still, and that too much is being asked of Lee Johnson.

 

 

I disagree, we are no longer running to standstill. We have caught up, not a lot, but we are no longer the ugly cousin. Still lots of work to do.

Unpalatable as it may seem the Villa’s, West Brom’s, Boros, Forest, Norwich, Leeds, Wednesday, Birmingham’s, Hull city’s  have a pedigree we can’t match and foreign investment are attracted to these clubs. And by the way rightly so as any business/Commercial venture would.

Another unpalatable but realistic question. “What do fans expect” and also “what do fans want”.

Two different questions.......

 

[cidered abroad]

16 minutes ago, Beni71 said:

 

This won’t be a popular opinion but I also think LJ is in a similar position. When he leaves( next 18 months) I think we will struggle.

 

Five wins out of the last thirty games is not struggling? You clearly don't live in the real world. 

[Beni71]

1 minute ago, cidered abroad said:

Five wins out of the last thirty games is not struggling? You clearly don't live in the real world. 

It totally depends on the dimensions and facts you use to make an opinion. The one you’ve chosen to use is very powerful but also misleading. Here’s another statement..

“lee Johnson developed flint, Reid, Bryan into premiership players and sold them for £21m”

The above statement is also powerful and misleading. 

I live in a Commercial world that considers  both internal and external facts. 

 

[RumRed]

3 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

I'm happy that we are in this league with a competitive squad. 

For some it's always about signing 'someone' to answer their prayers and usually this is for 'money' 

Ambition for this season, Mid table young players kick on again, start making money,being competitive which we are and see where we go.

 

We've no divine right to anything,and I dont get why some of our fans dont get that.

 

If we're always living in the what if fantasy world we literally take our eyes off the ball of where we are and where we go next.

I'd like to win a game, maybe even two in a row.  Not sure I'm asking that much.

Competitive squad? How do you know that?  Hopefully we do but that's quite a statement this early in the season.

Look at our last 25 games, how the hell do you come up with the fact we're competitive? 

As far as divine right goes you're obviously right, however we are spending, and receiving, significant amounts on transfers.

We can no longer hide behind the underdog, poor Bristol City tag anymore.  Time to deliver and time for apologists, such as you, to wake tfu.

 

 

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Reality suggests a model based upon a locally born owner with no foreign/additional investment or parachute payments running a self-sustaining financially prudent, profit-making club with a stream of home-grown academy products and lower league talent filling first team places vacated by departing star players sold at a good profit to rival clubs delivering a year on year improvement in league position and eventual promotion from one of the most competitive, dog-eat-dog divisions to the richest one in world football is about 5 or 6 years too late/now out of date and more unlikely than ever before.

It might well have worked a few years ago. It did for other clubs, Burnley for example. But this "philosophy" was dreamed up at least five years ago and the Championship is not what it was when we were promoted into it, let alone when we were last relegated from it. It has moved on, the "ante" has been upped considerably.

It feels as though we are running just to stand still, and that too much is being asked of Lee Johnson.

 

Good post.  Imho, until parachute payments are abolished, we aren’t paying a fair game in the Championship.  I think (generally) clubs like us, Preston, Brentford etc are fighting for a playoff pace but realistically it’s top half....and if you have a stellar season you might make it to the Prem (like Huddersfield).  Our stellar season may well have been 17/18....who knows.

Of course we are having to move forward to stand still, that’s how big the Champ has become.

7 hours ago, KeepUpLino said:

What pedigree did Bourmouth have then ffs.. this is another excuse!

Russian!!!!  They flouted the rules and got a paltry punishment 3 years later.  The rules have now been changed. @Beni71 - Howe important but not as important as their Russian owner.

6 hours ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Cobblers Huddersfield did it 18 months ago, and so did Brighton, you just need a plan and stick to it. 

Both clubs spent loads....Brighton made a massive loss.  I wonder how close they were to breaking FFP?

4 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

Check out the investments Brighton made.

Check out how Huddersfield invested in the loan market.

Bighton also have a very highly regarded, experienced manager...........oh and David Wagner used to be the Dortmund  U23 Manager, which for me trumps Oldham and Barnsley!

There are no worthy comparisons.

The plan to get promoted, if that is the ambition, is hugely flawed.

But let's stick to the plan......and let's see where that gets us.

Wagner tapped into a market he knew lots about, a market that is compatible to our own, e.g. Bundesliga v Prem...okay their next division Down isn’t anywhere as good as the Champ, but he knew players who he thought were good enough to play here...and cheap, e.g. Kachunga was a second tier player in Germany.

We’ve tried to tap Sweden, which is not comprible.  There top division isn’t as good as the Champ (from what I’ve Read....sure our Swedish posters will correct me)....and we’ve paid over the odds.

[BobBobSuperBob]

12 hours ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Cobblers Huddersfield did it 18 months ago, and so did Brighton, you just need a plan and stick to it. 

And does anything depend on performing your plan efficiently and with skill ?

Or is it as simple as just ‘follow a plan and stick to it’ ?

[RumRed]

3 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Apologise for what?

 

'I'm more a fan than you because I want everything right now?'

 

Bleeding Nora, show that entitlement 

 

Or ya know go with the flow.  I'll support us this league, league above, leagues below.

 

I'll know at some point I'll see some decent footballers and may even get some feels we might get somewhere.

 

Aside from that ill see where we end up.

 

Last season doesn't matter and this season we're doing OK.

 

Not sure what you're expecting, but clearly isnt Bristol City 

 

 

No entitlement here, expectation would be more accurate.  With your point of view you should be on the board.

Watched us plummet through the divisions so clearly I do know Bristol City, is it wrong to expect more?

And last season does matter because its shaped the squad we have now and suggests a tone for this season.

More than happy to be proved wrong but I really hate the  idea some of our fans are happy with being mid table in the second tier just because that's what we do (In our successful seasons).

Get some bloody ambition and maybe we'll keep our better players.

Jesus wept some don't seem to get the idea of competitive sport, guess you got medals at your sportsday at school for 'trying'.

 

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

On 15/08/2018 at 20:39, Sturny said:

 

Think you scored atleast 2 on there pal 

Look a bit silly now don't we...... Looks like my silly stat about Weiman is more true at this point than your vitriolic stat

[Sturny]

4 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Look a bit silly now don't we...... Looks like my silly stat about Weiman is more true at this point than your vitriolic stat

Must’ve taken it to heart to crawl back to find this  

I don’t remember our little encounter or care about your stat on Weimann. Sorry 

[Monkeh]

1 hour ago, Sturny said:

Must’ve taken it to heart to crawl back to find this  

I don’t remember our little encounter or care about your stat on Weimann. Sorry 

you were wax lyrical about weinman not being a goal scorer and that he'll never score goals because of what he did at Derby

[Sturny]

5 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

you were wax lyrical about weinman not being a goal scorer and that he'll never score goals because of what he did at Derby

I never said that. I said Bobby was better. 

[Phileas Fogg]

8 minutes ago, Sturny said:

I never said that. I said Bobby was better. 

Has your opinion on that changed?

As you can probably guess, I'd still say it's too early to say. The initial impression I get is that Weimann might have more to his overall game though and is probably a cleverer player. The fact he's played in better sides than ours for most of his career is showing.

[Alessandro]

On 18/08/2018 at 01:32, RumRed said:

No entitlement here, expectation would be more accurate.  With your point of view you should be on the board.

Watched us plummet through the divisions so clearly I do know Bristol City, is it wrong to expect more?

And last season does matter because its shaped the squad we have now and suggests a tone for this season.

More than happy to be proved wrong but I really hate the  idea some of our fans are happy with being mid table in the second tier just because that's what we do (In our successful seasons).

Get some bloody ambition and maybe we'll keep our better players.

Jesus wept some don't seem to get the idea of competitive sport, guess you got medals at your sportsday at school for 'trying'.

 

Having realistic expectations is not defeatist. 

What do you mean by having some "bloody ambition"? 

I expect EVERY SINGLE City fan, every single employee of the club and every single player at the club has the "bloody ambition" to be in the premier league. 

But those who can take a step back and look outside the club can see that 1) having ambition and 2) being in a commercial and financial position to back it up, are two different things. And let's be honest, money is what talks the loudest in this division.

So unless you and those who think like you, want to get some bloody ambition and earn the millions, sorry, billions to give some bloody ambition to the club then you have to respect the fact that the people who do have the billions are doing what they see is the best thing to fulfill their ambitions for the club.

Not defeatist. Just the reality.

 

[Sturny]

Just now, Phileas Fogg said:

Has your opinion on that changed?

As you can probably guess, I'd still say it's too early to say. The initial impression I get is that Weimann might have more to his overall game though and is probably a cleverer player. The fact he's played in better sides than ours for most of his career is showing.

Weimann is better than I initially thought yes. He's on the road to do what Bobby did for us but still some way to go. 

 

[Robbored]

8 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Has your opinion on that changed?

As you can probably guess, I'd still say it's too early to say. The initial impression I get is that Weimann might have more to his overall game though and is probably a cleverer player. The fact he's played in better sides than ours for most of his career is showing.

And, very crucially Wiemann is now playing as a central striker...........not played there regularly at any of his previous clubs.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

1 hour ago, Sturny said:

Must’ve taken it to heart to crawl back to find this  

I don’t remember our little encounter or care about your stat on Weimann. Sorry 

You know when you and the Johnson out brigade take over the forums after a poor result I DNS blacklist the forum for my own sanity.

[Sturny]

6 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

You know when you and the Johnson out brigade take over the forums after a poor result I DNS blacklist the forum for my own sanity.

[Phileas Fogg]

47 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Weimann is better than I initially thought yes. He's on the road to do what Bobby did for us but still some way to go. 

 

I think people were too hasty to look at stats alone without the full context (for example - him playing on the wing)

People also didn't account for the fact that Weimann has played in better squads than us for all of his career. Playing as a main man in a weaker side allows him to shine in a way he couldn't at Derby, Villa or on loan.

What would make him surpass Reid in your opinion? Bettering his goal tally? Could easily happen..

[Mr Popodopolous]

Didn't Weimann get an assist Sunday too?

His first for us- the other side of Reid's game, yet Weimann is also a player capable of delivering this too. Time will tell.

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Didn't Weimann get an assist Sunday too?

His first for us- the other side of Reid's game, yet Weimann is also a player capable of delivering this too. Time will tell.

I think Weimann will get more assists the more he plays with Diedhiou. With Taylor, he's the focal point of the attack. I suspect with Diedhiou he'll become the second striker and Diedhiou will be the main target.

I don't necessarily think this will see Weimann's goals dry up though, he could cause havoc with late runs into the box. I think it could be a really exciting set of forwards - all with different strengths and abilities.

[EnderMB]

I think a lot of the criticism and negativity is down to self-perception, rather than fans being too ambitious or not ambitious enough.

The club took a risk on signing LJ, a manager that had only proven his ability in the leagues below our own. On the face of it, he was a safe signing, someone that agreed with the clubs evolution of the five pillars that ultimately cost Cotterill his job. Since then, we've had a fantastic run in the cup, two decent runs near the top of the Championship table, alongside two slides into near-oblivion at the end of the season. We've also had LJ referring to our side as a "Premier League team in waiting" and Lansdown repeatedly referring to the fact that he's poured most of his own money into the club than the fans have, and that the club aim to get promotion to the Premier League, despite operating on a budget that puts us at a disadvantage.

In my opinion, LJ has done well. We're safely mid-table, which is better than we were before he joined, and we've had high highs as well as low lows. If he continues to improve our position then he should stay, but ultimately the only way the club can be sustainable is by aiming higher. That doesn't mean we should go for Premier League or bust, but it DOES mean that we should finish higher than we did last season.

In addition to this, it means that Lansdown needs to keep his end of the bargain by improving the off-the-field opportunities for the club. Selling our crown jewels might have been a poor move on the football side, but it remains to be seen whether it generates enough money to ensure that we can pay greater wages and improve our position for the future. I know he's pouring a lot of money into the club, but that doesn't absolve him from his business responsibilies. If we cannot compete with parachute payments then the club needs to compete elsewhere. We need to compete by having top facilities, top coaching, a top academy, and by bringing in a ton of cash through sponsorship, the fans, and transfers. It's hard to take an owner seriously when they talk about getting Premier League football by copying whoever managed it through luck, in the same way that it's hard to take a fan seriously when they tell you that they're going to buy a yacht after blowing a grand on scratch-cards.

Getting 10th or above this season isn't just meeting expectations for the head coach - it's meeting expecations for the owner. Do well, and the Premier League is still a viable goal. Do bad, and the club need to accept that we're in our optimum position. Most importantly, if you do bad, don't talk about the Premier League. Walk before you can run.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think Weimann will get more assists the more he plays with Diedhiou. With Taylor, he's the focal point of the attack. I suspect with Diedhiou he'll become the second striker and Diedhiou will be the main target.

I don't necessarily think this will see Weimann's goals dry up though, he could cause havoc with late runs into the box. I think it could be a really exciting set of forwards - all with different strengths and abilities.

I think so- Weimann dropping a bit and becoming the 2nd striker/support striker could also help to solve the dilemma of 2 up top v reducing the midfield.

Great range of strikers  as you say, his late runs will be important. I would at this time be inclined to stick with Taylor and Weimann as a starting pair- Sheffield United again will throw up a different tactical challenge and I fear Diedhiou and Weimann from the off could leave us a bit open. Nice problem to have though!

[Phileas Fogg]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

I think so- Weimann dropping a bit and becoming the 2nd striker/support striker could also help to solve the dilemma of 2 up top v reducing the midfield.

Great range of strikers  as you say, his late runs will be important. I would at this time be inclined to stick with Taylor and Weimann as a starting pair- Sheffield United again will throw up a different tactical challenge and I fear Diedhiou and Weimann from the off could leave us a bit open. Nice problem to have though!

Yeah I agree. Diedhiou seems to do quite well from the bench too. No need to rush him back, better to have him at top form for 30 mins and ease him in.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Yeah I agree. Diedhiou seems to do quite well from the bench too. No need to rush him back, better to have him at top form for 30 mins and ease him in.

Agreed- thought 60 odd minutes in at 2-1 up was a great time to bring him on- Weimann and Taylor work so hard, gave the Blackburn defence little peace that sending on a fresh and hungry Diedhiou- well Blackburn will have thought 'Oh no, that's all we need'.

[Sturny]

35 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think people were too hasty to look at stats alone without the full context (for example - him playing on the wing)

People also didn't account for the fact that Weimann has played in better squads than us for all of his career. Playing as a main man in a weaker side allows him to shine in a way he couldn't at Derby, Villa or on loan.

What would make him surpass Reid in your opinion? Bettering his goal tally? Could easily happen..

 Reid was involved with over 1/3 of our goals last season so it would have to be something near that, Weimann is shaping up nicely tho but like we've both said there's sometime to go. 

There were plenty of times when watching City games with non-city fans they were amazed by Bobby and asked who that was. So many moments of magic! 

Would you bet on Weimann scoring 20 this season? I'd be surprised if he doesn't reach 15+

[INCRED]

8 minutes ago, Sturny said:

 Reid was involved with over 1/3 of our goals last season so it would have to be something near that, Weimann is shaping up nicely tho but like we've both said there's sometime to go. 

There were plenty of times when watching City games with non-city fans they were amazed by Bobby and asked who that was. So many moments of magic! 

Would you bet on Weimann scoring 20 this season? I'd be surprised if he doesn't reach 15+

See no reason why Fammy and Weimann can't get 15+ each and others chip in.

[Monkeh]

2 hours ago, Sturny said:

Weimann is better than I initially thought yes. He's on the road to do what Bobby did for us but still some way to go. 

 

Weinman scored in the prem, bobby hasn't, therefore weinman is better