Lee Johnson - Time To Go

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

football based facts as well,

Heresy!

[BRISTOL86]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

As Brentford seem to be a popular comparison / argument if you want to judge the wider picture , many are overlooking transfer dealings (At the heart of both Clubs philosophies)

In the last three  years (Including the window just gone )

 

City have spent £36:45 million on players 

In the same period we have recouped £42.45 milion

A profit on transfer fees of £6m (The sales of £26.55 million this summer having a very large positive effect here)

 

Brentford have spent £23.87 million on players

In the same period , whilst consistently maintaining league position they’ve recouped £57.30 million

A profit on transfer fees of £33.43 million

 

Indeed. It’s a superb model but it’s testament to the prowess of the scouting infrastructure rather than the manager. 

[downendcity]

53 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

The problem isn't Johnson it lies elsewhere

That Teresa May has a lot to answer for! 

[BRISTOL86]

5 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I wouldn't know about the first statement, my problem is that I do not believe we are playing to our strengths and we do not create enough, if SL has an issue with that, that's his problem not mine.

Of course the 28 games of 2018 might be in his thoughts?

Absolutely not, Bolton were shocking, they looked like a pub team, something I said at the time, once we changed our style out of necessity, we murdered them and created chances and with that I refer to my first paragraph. Why did it take 2 goals to inject urgency and pace into our game?

 

Why did the vastly larger spending and more talented Boro need to be 2 down at Millwall before they did the same thing?

Because that’s football and it’s what happens in a competitive league. 

Do we have things to improve on? Absolutely. But the reaction overall to a couple of games is nothing short of a complete embarrassment. 

One game on paper that we should have lost and one that we should have won.

Instead we drew both and the knives are out already, after our most successful season in a decade.  Incredible. Only at BCFC. 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

4 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

we hit the crossbar and had one narrowly wide as well a good safe at the start of the 2nd half before they went one up es

A miss hit free kick? really?, one narrowly wide is not a chance, maybe if he hit the target and the keeper had to pull off a good save then maybe, OK one on target early in the 2nd half.

[Londoner]

5 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Indeed. It’s a superb model but it’s testament to the prowess of the scouting infrastructure rather than the manager. 

Laughable 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Indeed. It’s a superb model but it’s testament to the prowess of the scouting infrastructure rather than the manager. 

I’d (very largely) agree - just think it’s very much worth bearing in mind when comparing the performance of the two , Clubs shall we say

Im still amazed that Ashton escapes a lot of flak regarding the largely doubtful  recruitment from a constant changing recruitment set up (His responsibility as he’s said many times) in the last 3 years 

 

 

Im staying out of the Johnso debate atm

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 minute ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Why did the vastly larger spending and more talented Boro need to be 2 down at Millwall before they did the same thing?

Because that’s football and it’s what happens in a competitive league. 

Do we have things to improve on? Absolutely. But the reaction overall to a couple of games is nothing short of a complete embarrassment. 

Millwall are a good side, we couldn't beat them last season and they finished above us in the league.

[General Zod]

11 minutes ago, Cider-Head23 said:

It's laughable to call for LJ's head already.

We've only played 3 games. Were yet to lose in the league.

I'd say if Diedhiou had played against Bolton & Plymouth we'd of won both games.

There's been a big overhaul this summer, it's going to take time.

Whilst I agree that 3 games is too early to call for LJ head, the inexcusable collapse post Christmas and a season where we never quite worked out how to play away from home means in my eyes at least, tolerance and slack is in short supply.  We really do need to start showing some form and proving we can hurt teams with our possession.

Was last seasons early form a sign of how good the team could be or just an exciting blip in between 2 poor seasons?

as for Fam,  he was had his ban at the end of last season so we’ve had plenty of time to either replace or work on a suitable plan B but it feels like we are happy to write off August and September and prey Fam hits the ground running

Why we cashed in on Milan i’ll Never know.  He should have been told he had to stay until January. 

 

[BRISTOL86]

5 minutes ago, Londoner said:

Laughable 

Yes; your point which has been disproved by cold hard facts is laughable. 

Dean Smith at Brentford

P 131 W 53 D 30 PPG 1.44

Lee Johnson at City

P 126 W 48 D 31 PPG 1.39

Almost absolutely identical records

You’re talking nonsense

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I’d (very largely) agree - just think it’s very much worth bearing in mind when comparing the performance of the two , Clubs shall we say

Im still amazed that Ashton escapes a lot of flak regarding the largely doubtful  recruitment from a constant changing recruitment set up (His responsibility as he’s said many times) in the last 3 years 

 

 

Im staying out of the Johnso debate atm

 

Indeed. In terms of incoming players I’m no Ashton fan at all. I think he’s done a decent job getting good value for outgoings in the main. 

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Millwall are a good side, we couldn't beat them last season and they finished above us in the league.

What’s that got to do with Boro? They spent tens of millions more than them and have a much better team on paper so surely you can’t give the opposition any credit? 

Oh wait....it’s 11 v 11 who all want to win a game. You don’t always get what you deserve out of games. 9/10 times if we replay that fixture I’d put money on us getting a result. It wasn’t our day. 

[ScottishRed]

4 minutes ago, General Zod said:

Whilst I agree that 3 games is too early to call for LJ head, the inexcusable collapse post Christmas and a season where we never quite worked out how to play away from home means in my eyes at least, tolerance and slack is in short supply.  We really do need to start showing some form and proving we can hurt teams with our possession.

Was last seasons early form a sign of how good the team could be or just an exciting blip in between 2 poor seasons?

as for Fam,  he was had his ban at the end of last season so we’ve had plenty of time to either replace or work on a suitable plan B but it feels like we are happy to write off August and September and prey Fam hits the ground running

Why we cashed in on Milan i’ll Never know.  He should have been told he had to stay until January. 

 

It is worth pointing out that we actually played our best and most successful football last season when Famara was out injured

[Londoner]

6 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Yes; your point which has been disproved by cold hard facts is laughable. 

Dean Smith at Brentford

P 131 W 53 D 30 PPG 1.44

Lee Johnson at City

P 126 W 48 D 31 PPG 1.39

Almost absolutely identical records

You’re talking nonsense

Indeed. In terms of incoming players I’m no Ashton fan at all. I think he’s done a decent job getting good value for outgoings in the main. 

So you have confirmed that Smith has done better than LJ with a smaller budget and more players going out.

On that note I think we can end the conversation.

[Cider-Head23]

2 minutes ago, General Zod said:

Whilst I agree that 3 games is too early to call for LJ head, the inexcusable collapse post Christmas and a season where we never quite worked out how to play away from home means in my eyes at least, tolerance and slack is in short supply.  We really do need to start showing some form and proving we can hurt teams with our possession.

Was last seasons early form a sign of how good the team could be or just an exciting blip in between 2 poor seasons?

as for Fam,  he was had his ban at the end of last season so we’ve had plenty of time to either replace or work on a suitable plan B but it feels like we are happy to write off August and September and prey Fam hits the ground running

Why we cashed in on Milan i’ll Never know.  He should have been told he had to stay until January. 

 

Agreed with what your saying. I think luckily for LJ.

Although we were poor post Christmas last year the end of the season came at the right time.

As you generally look at things over the course of a season rather than a calendar year.

2017/18 season reading: 11th place and a league cup semi final looked good on paper.

Major progression from the 17th place finish the season before.

However looking at it from more a fans point of you, you're quite right we haven't won away since December 2017

and we haven't hit any real type of from during 2018. Agreed, Djuric should of stayed until Jan.

He'd of been enough to win the game at Bolton, even If it was off the bench and probably would of got us back in the game on Tuesday night.

[PeterStyvarsRightFoot]

i really do despair...

[BCFCGav]

17 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

Bad days how about bad half seasons.

We finished 11th. You have to look at the season on the whole, see the bigger picture. A football club is a long term thing, so to be finishing 11th in the championship using brilliant home-grown talent is excellent considering we were almost relegated to L2 5yrs ago.

[BRISTOL86]

Just now, Londoner said:

So you have confirmed that Smith has done better than LJ with a smaller budget and more players going out.

On that note I think we can end the conversation.

You’re just being ridiculous to be honest.

Your claim of a ‘shoestring’ budget is absolute nonsense. By that logic we also have a shoestring budget, as our wage spending is almost identical. 

It’s not Johnson’s fault that we overpay for bang average players. Last I checked he isn’t the guy negotiating transfer fees. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

3 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Not sure what Swiss Ramble is but I was looking at their accounts. 

BCFC staff costs over last two full years £33.3m, BFC £32.2.

3% in it begeeen the two clubs over two years. 

Obviously includes all staff not just players but a fairly firm indication that as clubs we’re operating in roughly the same ballpark budget wise. 

31 May, SR: "Although #Brentford FC suffer from very low revenue and wages in the Championship, they have consistently punched above their weight....." 

In 2016/17, on transfer fees they spent £7m, we spent £14m. On wages, they spent £15m,  we spent £21m. Commercial revenue: them, £2m; us, £9m. According to SR. 

They have sold their best players every season in the Championship - what people here are now calling "churn" - and coped with "churn" in the manager/head coach position, and finished top ten every time. We have yet to finish top ten following promotion. All this on 10k crowds, half what we now attract.

All this indicates to me that on a bit less than us, Brentford are squeezing out a bit more than us, four years on the spin. They are showing that despite being amongst "bigger budget teams" we could do more and better with what we have (this might be what SL is thinking about, when he says he wants us to finish higher this season).

Being in London no doubt is an advantage over us, but being owned by Matthew Bentham might be something to do with it too. 

 

[BRISTOL86]

5 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

31 May, SR: "Although #Brentford FC suffer from very low revenue and wages in the Championship, they have consistently punched above their weight....." 

In 2016/17, on transfer fees they spent £7m, we spent £14m. On wages, they spent £15m,  we spent £21m. Commercial revenue: them, £2m; us, £9m. According to SR. 

They have sold their best players every season in the Championship - what people here are now calling "churn" - and coped with "churn" in the manager/head coach position, and finished top ten every time. We have yet to finish top ten following promotion. All this on 10k crowds, half what we now attract.

All this indicates to me that on a bit less than us, Brentford are squeezing out a bit more than us, four years on the spin. They are showing that despite being amongst "bigger budget teams" we could do more and better with what we have (this might be what SL is thinking about, when he says he wants us to finish higher this season).

Being in London no doubt is an advantage over us, but being owned by Matthew Bentham might be something to do with it too. 

 

Not according to our accounts we didn’t!

For the record, I’m in complete agreement that Brentford have been excellent and that Smith is clearly a good manager. I’ve never denied that. 

But the facts are that his actual results are almost identical in every way to Johnson here. And based on what’s published in the accounts we aren’t very dissimilar spenders on staff. 

Their transfer business has been excellent.

And I definitley agree that we could and should have done more with what we’ve thrown at it. The same can be said of pretty much every season under SL! Our recruitment process is clearly some way off of theirs. But I don’t think you can lay that blame solely at Johnson’s door. 

[Sniper]

8 minutes ago, General Zod said:

Whilst I agree that 3 games is too early to call for LJ head, the inexcusable collapse post Christmas and a season where we never quite worked out how to play away from home means in my eyes at least, tolerance and slack is in short supply.  We really do need to start showing some form and proving we can hurt teams with our possession.

Was last seasons early form a sign of how good the team could be or just an exciting blip in between 2 poor seasons?

as for Fam,  he was had his ban at the end of last season so we’ve had plenty of time to either replace or work on a suitable plan B but it feels like we are happy to write off August and September and prey Fam hits the ground running

Why we cashed in on Milan i’ll Never know.  He should have been told he had to stay until January. 

 

I bloody hope not, we could do without any more injury's!

[BobBobSuperBob]

Maybe not the thread for it but in researching net transfer market dealings I see we are in 5th profit table amongst all English Clubs this season to date

 

 

[phantom]

24 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

In the same period we have recouped £42.45 milion

But surely the sales this summer are basically a one off, and mislead the figures somewhat ?

[Bristol Oil Services]

10 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Not according to our accounts we didn’t!

For the record, I’m in complete agreement that Brentford have been excellent and that Smith is clearly a good manager. I’ve never denied that. 

But the facts are that his actual results are almost identical in every way to Johnson here. And based on what’s published in the accounts we aren’t very dissimilar spenders on staff. 

Their transfer business has been excellent.

And I definitley agree that we could and should have done more with what we’ve thrown at it. The same can be said of pretty much every season under SL! Our recruitment process is clearly some way off of theirs. But I don’t think you can lay that blame solely at Johnson’s door. 

Agreed. I think we are broadly on the same page!

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

4 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

What’s that got to do with Boro? They spent tens of millions more than them and have a much better team on paper so surely you can’t give the opposition any credit? 

Oh wait....it’s 11 v 11 who all want to win a game. You don’t always get what you deserve out of games. 9/10 times if we replay that fixture I’d put money on us getting a result. It wasn’t our day. 

Hold on firstly I gave Millwall credit, they are a better team than us and Middlesborough have spent 12.5mil and recouped close to 45mil in sales of most of their best players.

You don't get what you deserve when you do not play to your strengths, until necessity dictates that you do.

I saw things that encouraged me in the Forest game, all in midfield for once, shape, organisation and discipline (apart from the 10/15 minutes at the start of the 2nd half when we conceded) I was also impressed that instead of our usual midfield capitulation we managed to compete for the rest of the game.

What I saw against Bolton was unambitious, slow, boring and predictable build up for an hour lacking creativity and cutting edge.

I will say it again for clarity, do I think LJ should be sacked? absolutely not but my problem really is our form of 2018, not just 2 league games this season but 28 and the excuses that have been offered up about that run, the excuses must end, LJ needs to be solely judged on results after a reasonable amount of games this season, do I think SL will sack him absolutely not.

[Mr Popodopolous]

26 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

It is worth pointing out that we actually played our best and most successful football last season when Famara was out injured

...most cohesive too.

@Esmond Million's Bung Bolton away not as easy as it seems on paper. They beat Cardiff, Villa and of course us at their place last season- drew with Fulham too. They are far from a good side, but they are awkward, difficult, physical- fouls to cut out the flow of the game and they sit fairly deep before breaking out even at home. In short, everything you'd expect from a cash strapped Bolton away. That isn't easy. The risk also that if we'd gone for it sooner we may have got hit on the break at some point and lost.

Millwall are a good side...in that they play to their strengths. Not a possession based side tbh, but nonetheless will pose a challenge to anyone at their ground this season. Won't get 8th again I don't think, but should be tough.

[Sturny]

70 rubbishes?! New record?

[BRISTOL86]

8 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Hold on firstly I gave Millwall credit, they are a better team than us and Middlesborough have spent 12.5mil and recouped close to 45mil in sales of most of their best players.

You don't get what you deserve when you do not play to your strengths, until necessity dictates that you do.

I saw things that encouraged me in the Forest game, all in midfield for once, shape, organisation and discipline (apart from the 10/15 minutes at the start of the 2nd half when we conceded) I was also impressed that instead of our usual midfield capitulation we managed to compete for the rest of the game.

What I saw against Bolton was unambitious, slow, boring and predictable build up for an hour lacking creativity and cutting edge.

I will say it again for clarity, do I think LJ should be sacked? absolutely not but my problem really is our form of 2018, not just 2 league games this season but 28 and the excuses that have been offered up about that run, the excuses must end, LJ needs to be solely judged on results after a reasonable amount of games this season, do I think SL will sack him absolutely not.

You can’t just look at Boro’s spending this summer. They’re big hitters, with a considerably better squad than us (or Millwall) and pay much bigger wages. They ‘should’ have dispatched Millwall as easily as we ‘should’ have dispatched Bolton, but football isn’t played on a calculator, and in 11 v 11 competitive football, it doesn’t always go the way you expect.

Whether you like it or not, Bolton deserve credit for standing up to us for so long given our domination. Did we perform to our best until 0-2? No, absolutely not, but we weren’t apalling either and looked comfortable if largely unthreatening. 

Re sacking Johnson, I think he will if performance isn’t in line with expectations. Whether his actual expectations are the same as what he publicised remain to be seen. 

We had a pretty high allure churn in the summer and are without arguably our best player. But we’re still undefeated. The fact that these facts are being turned into such over the top hyperbole is pretty ridiculous whichever side of the fence you lean.

[Londoner]

6 minutes ago, Sturny said:

70 rubbishes?! New record?

I've got at least a 100+ on several occasions

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, Sturny said:

70 rubbishes?! New record?

Whenever the pit of despair that is OTIB gets to me too much, I’ll come back to this to take comfort and reassurance in the fact that 4 out of every 5 people here think he’s talking guff. 

[Londoner]

5 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Whenever the pit of despair that is OTIB gets to me too much, I’ll come back to this to take comfort and reassurance in the fact that 4 out of every 5 people here think he’s talking guff. 

I think you need to take a step back if this forum is impacting on your life like that.