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The Bristol City v Middlesbrough Match Day 3


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3 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

FWIW he’s had five

And I needed one pint for each of those ‘windows’ to tolerate that performance.....continual sideways passing between the two centre backs, no one helping them by making runs in behind and demanding the ball. They were only helped by Pack openly wanting the ball all the time, but then he continually realised he had zero options when he received it, except knocking it back to a centre back again as those further forward than him stood still and gawped at him.....and Pisano at left back when we had a Chelsea left back on the bench together with no recognised out and out striker on the pitch until Taylor came on with 20 minutes to go....dreadful performance - and yet @Redshorts wants to ban ‘moaning’ on here....look forward to his or her opinion on today’s debacle...

Edited by BS4 on Tour...
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3 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I don’t disagree that we could and should create more. But like I said you shouldn’t have to score 2 goals every game just to salvage a point. We’ll score a reasonable amount of goals this season IMO but once again it’ll be goals against that will be our downfall. 

Just like 17/18

Just like 16/17

Just like 15/16

Simply have not learned.

It's not the defence that is the problem IMHO, it's the midfield with all of the possession that we have had in the past 2 games, we need to convert that possession into goals when we are on top, but that is impossible when we aren't even creating chances 1 in 3 games says it all.

I cannot see that we will score a reasonable amount of goals and we will concede because of our need to convert nil/nil into wins or chasing the game because we have conceded.

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5 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

And I needed one pint for each of those ‘windows’ to tolerate that performance.....continual sideways passing between the two centre backs, no one helping them by making runs in behind and demanding the ball. They were only helped by Pack openly wanting the ball all the time, but then he continually realised he had zero options when he received it, except knocking it back to a centre back again as those further forward than him stood still and gawped at him.....and Pisano at left back when we had a Chelsea left back on the bench together with no recognised out and out striker on the pitch until Taylor came on with 20 minutes to go....dreadful performance - and yet @Redshorts wants to ban ‘moaning’ on here....look forward to his or her opinion on today’s debacle...

You might have to wait a bit - he was on another thread.....

 

 

 

.........Moaning

about the award of the MOM

:laughcont:

Priorities n all that

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7 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

It's not the defence that is the problem IMHO, it's the midfield with all of the possession that we have had in the past 2 games, we need to convert that possession into goals when we are on top, but that is impossible when we aren't even creating chances 1 in 3 games says it all.

I cannot see that we will score a reasonable amount of goals and we will concede because of our need to convert nil/nil into wins or chasing the game because we have conceded.

In the last two games we’ve had 34 attempts at goal. You seem to be disregarding anything that isn’t a ‘perfect’ chance like a one on one, whereas the majority of goals don’t come from what you’re calling clear cut chances. 

None of the goals we’ve conceded have been incredible chances borne out of some amazing piece of creativity. 

You’ve illustrated my point perfectly by saying we’ve had one chance in three games - well we scored three goals from that ‘one chance’  

Point being the problem isn’t a lack of creativity per se. A lack of being able to turn those opportunities - whether you deem them ‘clear cut’ or not - into goals, yes.

But also like I keep saying, if you keep putting yourself in a position where you have to score two or three each game just to get something out of the game, you ain’t gonna win much. 

All good teams are hard to score against, and we are absolutely piss easy to score against. 

Just like last season

And the season before

And the season before

I agree with you that the problem isn’t necessarily defensive personnel. It’s a symptom of the flawed system we are insistent on playing, a symptom of the fact that we don’t have a single defensive midfielder at the club, and a symptom of the fact that we lack any kind of fight when out of possession. 

Edited by BRISTOL86
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1 hour ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

We could have brought in a short term loan, that would have made sense, in the same way that after selling Djuric and knowing the Diedhiou was banned for 6 games, we should have brought in cover.

We haven't in both cases it's a mistake, it's unprofessional and it will end up costing us.

Have to agree...........if it's obvious to the majority of supporters, then surely LJ had to be aware of our short term problem?  So he chose to ignore it, and was prepared to field a weakened side, rather than address it. We then miss the possible opportunity to make a solid start to our season...........and just perhaps end up playing catch up with the top half of the table?  If we were prepared to spend 3.9M Euros on a keeper a few weeks ago [We ended up getting one on a free].....how come suddenly our lack of recruitment is down to finances, when we saved 3.9M and also sold Duric and Bryan [7M?] , this is after we bid for the Columbus keeper.  Doesn't seem to add up? Am I missing something?  What a shame that one of the excellent, brave and insightful journalists who cover City didn't think to ask about that?

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3 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Have to agree...........if it's obvious to the majority of supporters, then surely LJ had to be aware of our short term problem?  So he chose to ignore it, and was prepared to field a weakened side, rather than address it. We then miss the possible opportunity to make a solid start to our season...........and just perhaps end up playing catch up with the top half of the table?  If we were prepared to spend 3.9M Euros on a keeper a few weeks ago [We ended up getting one on a free].....how come suddenly our lack of recruitment is down to finances, when we saved 3.9M and also sold Duric and Bryan [7M?] , this is after we bid for the Columbus keeper.  Doesn't seem to add up? Am I missing something?  What a shame that one of the excellent, brave and insightful journalists who cover City didn't think to ask about that?

It wouldn't be so bad if we hadn't made the same error twice last season by not signing a right back.

To me it's unprofessional and trying to wing it.

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1 minute ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

It wouldn't be so bad if we hadn't made the same error twice last season by not signing a right back.

To me it's unprofessional and trying to wing it.

And the lack of obvious stand in for our first choice striking pair ?

We look we might get away with the keeper and left back situations

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1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

And the lack of obvious stand in for our first choice striking pair ?

We look we might get away with the keeper and left back situations

Exactly might, hope or let's wing it, bearing in mind Da Silva apparently arrived injured, any further injury to either him, Webster or Kelly and we are truly fooked.

And who would replace Wiemann? Taylor?

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I don't listen to LJ's interviews, did he really say (after £16m-ish profit from transfers) that we didn't get a striker to replace Djuric because of budget ?

Shocking state of affairs when with one striker banned, you sell the other as the season starts. A really half arsed way to run a club.

1 minute ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

And who would replace Wiemann? Taylor?

That is a frightening thought.
Eisa would have been my first sub today, give him some time and at least he seems to have a little pace.
Again half arsed...... lose what potentially (Flint,Reid,Bryan & Fam) 45 goals and replace them with a wing and a prayer. 

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6 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I don't listen to LJ's interviews, did he really say (after £16m-ish profit from transfers) that we didn't get a striker to replace Djuric because of budget ?

Shocking state of affairs when with one striker banned, you sell the other as the season starts. A really half arsed way to run a club.

 

Well if he did say that it says it all.

Again if true that is a real kick in the nads to the fans and needs an explanation.

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Just watched 'Frustrated' LJ's, after match comments. Have to say he spoke well and made some good points, without hiding.  I was very pleased to hear that he intends to use the market to address the weakness's in the side.....Damn Right!  I am still on his side, and am confident that if he puts his words into actions, we will be ok.  No time for knee jerk sackings, and he seems well aware that our Under 10's defending etc, is not good enough.....................to state the bleedin obvious!!? ?

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3 hours ago, BCFC Richard said:

This is the most ridiculous matchday thread I can remember. We're playing one of the better teams in the league, we've been on top for long spells of the game and people are acting like we've been destroyed and completely outplayed. Its a game we could easily have got something out of on another day, we've created plenty and its not quite run for us.

Obviously, there are things to be concerned about particularly at the back where we have been sloppy at times and Hunt in particular needs better concentration on his first touch and passing. But GK looks good (particularly for a free), Kelly had a great game, Pack looks fantastic and Wieman is quality. 

Think you watched a different game....and the ‘playing one of the better teams in the league’ excuse is lame...something that LJ would come out with ....we’ve only lost two of our last eight games against ‘Boro, including beating them last season just before we plummeted from 2nd to 11th and watched ‘Boro pass us to get into the play offs....they ain’t world beaters but most of their team didn’t need to break sweat today to claim an easy away victory....

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1 hour ago, maxjak said:

Have to agree...........if it's obvious to the majority of supporters, then surely LJ had to be aware of our short term problem?  So he chose to ignore it, and was prepared to field a weakened side, rather than address it. We then miss the possible opportunity to make a solid start to our season...........and just perhaps end up playing catch up with the top half of the table?  If we were prepared to spend 3.9M Euros on a keeper a few weeks ago [We ended up getting one on a free].....how come suddenly our lack of recruitment is down to finances, when we saved 3.9M and also sold Duric and Bryan [7M?] , this is after we bid for the Columbus keeper.  Doesn't seem to add up? Am I missing something?  What a shame that one of the excellent, brave and insightful journalists who cover City didn't think to ask about that?

It may be we’ll go back in for Steffen in the winter window...the money might still be needed.

30 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Seeing the goals back

Wtf was Webster doing / thinking for the first goal

Ducking instead of going and heading the ********** ball

?

 

I couldn’t believe it.  Who was he ‘challenging’?  Assombolonga?  Who did it hit on the back.  I think his lack of attempting to head the ball cost us the goal...I feel for Hunt because he had to react and was at full stretch.

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1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Think you watched a different game....and the ‘playing one of the better teams in the league’ excuse is lame...something that LJ would come out with ....we’ve only lost two of our last eight games against ‘Boro, including beating them last season just before we plummeted from 2nd to 11th and watched ‘Boro pass us to get into the play offs....they ain’t world beaters but most of their team didn’t need to break sweat today to claim an easy away victory....

I know lame - imagine considering the quality of the opposition we were playing. I mean what bearing could that possibly have on a match. 

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2 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

I know lame - imagine considering the quality of the opposition we were playing. I mean what bearing could that possibly have on a match. 

We beat them at Ashton Gate last season and loads of wise sages on here continually slag off Tony Pulis as being a crap football manager, so why shouldn’t we be able to compete with them?!

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1 hour ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I don’t disagree that we could and should create more. But like I said you shouldn’t have to score 2 goals every game just to salvage a point. We’ll score a reasonable amount of goals this season IMO but once again it’ll be goals against that will be our downfall. 

Just like 17/18

Just like 16/17

Just like 15/16

Simply have not learned.

Hmmm, I dunno.

15/16: 71 goals conceded. 

16/17: 66

17/18: 58.

That looks to me like improvement, and so some learning. If you think that 13 of those 58 goals (nearly a quarter!) last season were conceded in two and a half games (Villa away, Sunderland and Hull home) and that at 2 down at Villa, Flint was put up front as we threw caution to the wind, then in the other 43 games, conceding 45 goals was a massive improvement on 15/16. 

Flint was central to everything in our rise and we have lost more than we realised, including many things that do not show up on opta. English football, and central defending, is still about heart and guts and steel.  

I agree with one of your other comments though, that our defensive problems are systemic and not simply due to individual error. LJ wants to score more than the opposition and attack, and that exposed Flint/us at times, too often in fact. As others have suggested, we might do better being more pragmatic and being more "Preston." 

If we are up against "bigger budget teams" with eleven players that would "walk into our team" then you have to wonder about the wisdom of attempt to play them at their own game and try and pass and move  better than these wealthier sides. Especially having just sold two of our finest proponents of this difficult part of the game.

It is noble of LJ to try and provide us with a vibrant and attacking side but there are times when "needs must," rather like Pemberton and Co for four games when Cotts was fired.

A ball playing centre back is what LJ has wanted for some time. He has in part made his bed here now (although he could do with a break on the injury/suspension front).

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26 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

We beat them at Ashton Gate last season and loads of wise sages on here continually slag off Tony Pulis as being a crap football manager, so why shouldn’t we be able to compete with them?!

I can't fault your logic, we've beaten them before therefore it's a walk in the park - shouldn't matter how good a team they are just our recent games against them. If only we could play man u everyweek it would be an easy season. 

You won't find it find any posts by me critising Pulis's managerial ability - don't like his style but always defensively sound and effective. 

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4 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

I can't fault your logic, we've beaten them before therefore it's a walk in the park - shouldn't matter how good a team they are just our recent games against them. If only we could play man u everyweek it would be an easy season. 

You won't find it find any posts by me critising Pulis's managerial ability - don't like his style but always defensively sound and effective. 

Nope, your Man U reference isn’t relevant - we play at the same level as ‘Boro and we have a great recent record against them....and, as so many on here think they’ve got a crap manager there is no reason why we shouldn’t be competitive against them..

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thought 2nd half there was more urgency and we had some good chances for sure...hit woodwork.

Felt like Boro were playing within themselves somewhat though, especially after their 2nd. Both their goals felt fairly soft but will watch it back on the highlights later.

 

This discussion is ongoing, there seems to be a lot of discrepancy between what is and what isn't a good chance, the stats say we never created a clear cut chance and I agree, I cannot recall a 'how the **** did he miss that' moment, the keeper made one good save and we hit the woodwork twice all from speculative efforts and we totally missed the target from all of the other speculative efforts, a bit of bad luck maybe but speculative efforts sometimes go in and sometimes they don't.

Edited by Esmond Million's Bung
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43 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

I know lame - imagine considering the quality of the opposition we were playing. I mean what bearing could that possibly have on a match. 

Our current malaise/predicament/blip/situation is primarily to do with us, and what we do, and the decisions we make, or do not make. And our strengths and weaknesses. To continually refer to the opposition and their wealth and so on, as has happened now two games out of three on here, is to absolve ourselves of responsibility and agency, and to begin to succumb to helplessness.

Millwall, with less resource than us, made rather a better fist of playing MBoro, and saw off Derby today. So, we have the resources to win any one game (doing better over 46 games is considerably more difficult) so other than injuries, where were we lacking as a club/team/coo/coach etc today? What could we do better or different?

I hope this is what LJ and Co is thinking, rather than your passive/helpless "bigger budget teams" type thinking there. I believe there will be options open to us to do better than today.

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5 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Our current malaise/predicament/blip/situation is primarily to do with us, and what we do, and the decisions we make, or do not make. And our strengths and weaknesses. To continually refer to the opposition and their wealth and so on, as has happened now two games out of three on here, is to absolve ourselves of responsibility and agency, and to begin to succumb to helplessness.

Millwall, with less resource than us, made rather a better fist of playing MBoro, and saw off Derby today. So, we have the resources to win any one game (doing better over 46 games is considerably more difficult) so other than injuries, where were we lacking as a club/team/coo/coach etc today? What could we do better or different?

I hope this is what LJ and Co is thinking, rather than your passive/helpless "bigger budget teams" type thinking there. I believe there will be options open to us to do better than today.

(not particularly in reference to this post)

As somebody who appears to have  just joined the forum

Have enjoyed reading your posts and thoughts

Have made some really good thought provoking points

 

Welcome

Good signing for OTIB

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16 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

This discussion is ongoing, there seems to be a lot of discrepancy between what is and what isn't a good chance, the stats say we never created a clear cut chance and I agree, I cannot recall a 'how the **** did he miss that' moment, the keeper made one good save and we hit the woodwork twice all from speculative efforts and we totally missed the target from all of the other speculative efforts, a bit of bad luck maybe but speculative efforts sometimes go in and sometimes they don't.

You'd hope one goes in..woodwork twice, their keeper tipper over also.

I thought we deserved at least one goal for our 2nd half efforts...but at the same time also think Middlesbrough played within themselves 2nd half.

Like a rather negative version of Brighton in November 2016. They went in 2 up at half time then kept their shape etc, like today.

Agree that clearcut chances are hard to define.

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LJ more or less summed up what I have been saying, that we never used the width enough and never made enough forward passing moves, in short we run out ideas in and around the box.

Hunt, Brownhill and Paterson all got into very good positions with time to look up and pick out a cross and none of them found one of our players, Paterson, Watkins and ODowda and Taylor all tried skipping across the 18 yard line turning and trying to go in the opposite direction when confronted by a defender, Middlesborough could have dealt with that all day long, what was missing was threading a forward pass into the box, but we do not possess that player and haven't for 3 years, maybe the penny has finally dropped for him, not holding my breath, the only thing missing from his post match interview was the 'no leaders' speech, I don't see any what you would call leaders signed in the summer, the more I think about it the more disappointed I am with our summer recruitment and we are certainly a weaker squad.

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2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You'd hope one goes in..woodwork twice, their keeper tipper over also.

I thought we deserved at least one goal for our 2nd half efforts...but at the same time also think Middlesbrough played within themselves 2nd half.

Like a rather negative version of Brighton in November 2016. They went in 2 up at half time then kept their shape etc, like today.

Agree that clearcut chances are hard to define.

Ah hope something we might need to be resigned to for the rest of the season.

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1 minute ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Ah hope something we might need to be resigned to for the rest of the season.

I am of the view that we won't go down...

QPR look very weak so far. Bolton are a surprise package after 3 games but I'd be surprised if they can keep it up. Rotherham will struggle clearly, Ipswich may miss McCarthy more than they think. Sheffield Wednesday and Hull don't look fantastic, Birmingham with several senior players frozen out won't be brilliant. Norwich could be surprise strugglers (think they'll be mid table however). Reading will surely stay up but 3 losses in 3 is it.

Not grounds for optimism in terms of a strong season, but grounds perhaps to believe we can reach midtable or lower midtable.

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