(Certain) Johnson Supporters

[cidered abroad]

8 minutes ago, Head&Shoulders said:

 

1) “He plays shit football”. He doesn’t though does he? Like quoted at the top of the thread he tries to get the players to play football how it should be played, and when it works we are incredible. We are still learning and we are getting there.

 

A football team performs in a style usually in the way that the manager was as a player. 

And for those clubs that already have a playing style, they find managers who fit their image/style. 

Liverpool - Shankly

Man U - Busby & Ferguson. That is why Mourinho is getting a rough ride because he is too negative and defensive. 

Arsenal - Wenger, going right back to Chapman. 

Wolves - long ball as the Cullis days

BCFC - also long ball from the Tann days. 

City - football on the floor but with aggression and spirit. Beasley, Ford, Dicks, Cooper, Jordan, Cotterill. 

That is why LJ is a poor choice for us. 

[Abraham Romanovich]

46 minutes ago, Head&Shoulders said:

 

People need to remember we are not a big club at all, we are small. We’ve never even stepped foot in the premier league compared to like 20 other teams in the league this year. Build stability in the championship first, show progression and build from there.

 

Keep the faith. We always believe. 

 

It is only our thinking which is small, we are the 7th largest city in the UK ,owned by a man who appears regurlarly in the Forbes list of 1000 richest men on the planet.

SL wants to make this club self sufficient which is admirable in League1 or the Championship but in the Premier League this goes out of the window as TV money is king and gate money is  an irrelevance.

It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy  if we keep saying we can't compete with the big boys we never will.( Bournemouth ,Watford etc)

We are comparable in size to Brighton who very nearly got relegated from the championship sacked their manager appointed Chris Hughton an experienced manager and got promoted.

Johnson has had enough time and things rather than improving seem to be in decline so I would suggest see where we are after 10 games and then pull the trigger if needed and appoint  a proven manager.

 

 

[Spike]

The one thing I've not seen mentioned yet about LJ and his position is not how long he'll remain here or if he's the right man for the job etc, plenty of that, but it's "how long will the fans keep going to the Gate?". 

I know the club has a lot of fans who will go to every game regardless but one thing SL and the club always seem to be pushing for is getting bums in seats. How much longer can we go getting these lackluster results and watching football that may be very entertaining at times but also has very little end result? Honestly at this point there is no excitement about going to watch us play because no-one can see that win coming. The one thing that puts bums in seats is thinking "I'm going to see us get a win today!" and that feeling is long gone right now. That's the reason we're annoyed with LJ, SL etc, we've lost our hope and the reasons all lay with the club, manager and players, no-one else is responsible. 

[Red Exile]

35 minutes ago, Head&Shoulders said:

Lansdown has showed previously he’s not afraid to sack a manager and he will still be the same here I’m sure. However he must see something in him that alot of other managers, people and clubs have said about Lee too, that he’s a brilliant young English manager. 

Thanks for putting an alternative viewpoint @Head&Shoulders. Here's mine. I can't speak for others but I've been unconvinced by LJ since the first truly dire run, which he appeared to have no idea how to end. I think things happen to him, he doesn't manage them. His game management appears to me to be poor. Last season the players of the Cotts era, who'd experienced footballing success LJ has never enjoyed, turned in some epic performances for him, but when the club needed leadership after the Wolves defeat it got none and went went into a downward spiral from which we've not emerged.

You pose questions which I'm not sure LJ's critics are posing. It's not that he plays rubbish football, or that the money has gone missing, or that we are a big club, it's that after 50 years watching City we have rarely been as close to getting back to the top as were at the start of this year...the core of that side has gone and nothing in Lee Johnson's record suggest that he's going to build a side capable of competing for promotion at this or any other level. Which appears to be the stated aim of the club.

To the points I've quoted, Steve Lansdown's track record of appointing managers is very poor and Lee Johnson simply isn't a 'brilliant young English manager'. He's a novice who looks increasingly out of his depth.

[BRISTOL86]

2 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I see the Johnson

hasn’t been backed

One hand tied behind his back

unfair ask

hasn’t been given the tools to do his job Etc 

 

has become the new trend amongst the ones who leap to his defence , whatever he does

Johnson has systematically dismantled the L1 title winning squad , replaced them with ‘his’ players , in amongst the 50 or so he’s gathered in

The wages we pay are at worst mid table 

and

He has spent £37 million pounds in his Five transfer windows here , in less than 3 years

Compare that to the vast majority of Clubs in last 3 years

Agree that he’s been backed well, but it’s absolute peanuts compared to the likes of the clubs that our fans now seemingly expect us to go toe to toe with. Booed off because Boro beat us, really? Absolutely pathetic. The gulf in the two clubs is enormous. Their two goal scorers yesterday cost  £25m - two thirds of what we’ve spent in 5 windows and probably earn between them close to what 5 of our top earners take home combined  

Can’t agree with systematic dismantling though. Lots of that team that he’s ‘dismantled’ were nowhere near championship standard and/or ageing players. 

Wilbs, Elliott, Agard, Williams etc

Flint, Bryan and Reid (if you can count him) all wanted out because they were wanted by bigger clubs. Johnson played those players almost every game of his tenure so that’s nothing to do with ‘systematic dismantling’ - simply our place in the food chain that if we have stellar performers they will be signed by bigger clubs, the same as we do with stellar performers of smaller clubs.

Only deliberate dismantling I can recall is Ayling and Freeman and only one of those was Johnson’s call, Ayling’s days were numbered the minute the incident at Cheltenham happened.

Simply put - as you’ve alluded to yourself - we are a mid table club wages wise, which is by far a bigger determinant of squad quality than transfer fees - but we have the expectations of a top six club. 

Always going to end in tears for Johnson here because the expectations of both the fan base and the owner are misaligned with the resources. 

You said it yourself the other day - for anyone to make that work it’s going to take all the stars aligning at once like it did for Huddersfield. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

1 Always going to end in tears for Johnson here because the expectations of both the fan base and the owner are misaligned with the resources. 

2 You said it yourself the other day - for anyone to make that work it’s going to take all the stars aligning at once like it did for Huddersfield. 

Leaving the other matters and different views aside re the above

1 I think is a fair and salient point- If fans expect us to be in the top six let alone promotion they are likely to be dissapointed for the foreseeable.and LJ is fighting fires

Excellent recruitment and excellent managing could get us in the top six 

On a personal level I’ve repeatedly said I’d be happy to see us stable as a established / competitive / recognised / progressive Championship Club 

 

2 I did and will always believe that’s the reality in terms of promotion

I will repeat that we can increase our ‘chances’ by excellent recruitment and excellent coaching/ management , we may even get close with one of those

I have to stick with what I said again last night

IMHO , at this present time we have neither and look much more of a threat to the bottom three than the top six

 

A scrambled win at QPR might well bring a second against Hull or Swansea and some momentum will give us some breathing space 

 

 

[EmissionImpossible]

No one is going to come in and make a substantial improvement on what Lee Johnson is achieving. I’m not saying he’s the perfect man for the job but with the structure in place then people have to be patient. I don’t believe everyone who thinks Lee Johnson should be sacked hate him but would rather not have the current structure and long term plan in place. 

I could see someone like Den Smith coming in possibly after Christmas but our fortunes won’t drastically improve.

[BRISTOL86]

5 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

No one is going to come in and make a substantial improvement on what Lee Johnson is achieving. I’m not saying he’s the perfect man for the job but with the structure in place then people have to be patient. I don’t believe everyone who thinks Lee Johnson should be sacked hate him but would rather not have the current structure and long term plan in place. 

I could see someone like Den Smith coming in possibly after Christmas but our fortunes won’t drastically improve.

I keep seeing Dean Smith, why? I can’t think of a more like for like change than Smith for Johnson? Their records are basically carbon copies of each other. 

And it’s a myth that he’s working with a shoestring budget. They pay decent wages and spend big money. And have a considerably better scouting operation. 

[Red-Robbo]

35 minutes ago, Spike said:

The one thing I've not seen mentioned yet about LJ and his position is not how long he'll remain here or if he's the right man for the job etc, plenty of that, but it's "how long will the fans keep going to the Gate?". 

I know the club has a lot of fans who will go to every game regardless but one thing SL and the club always seem to be pushing for is getting bums in seats. How much longer can we go getting these lackluster results and watching football that may be very entertaining at times but also has very little end result? Honestly at this point there is no excitement about going to watch us play because no-one can see that win coming. The one thing that puts bums in seats is thinking "I'm going to see us get a win today!" and that feeling is long gone right now. That's the reason we're annoyed with LJ, SL etc, we've lost our hope and the reasons all lay with the club, manager and players, no-one else is responsible. 

Well we've seen 3 league games: Forest, I'd argue, was not an awful result considering; Bolton was a point away that I'd always take; Boro was worse, but only because of our comedy defending - I'd argue that Boro didn't outplay us, we gifted them two goals. We literally defeated ourselves!

So there are two things going against the general mood of despondency.

1) It still is early doors

2) We are watching a club with an early season injury/suspension crisis

I was pretty swimming against a tide of happy clappers close season when I thought we'd lost three lynchpins and brought in numerous misfits and unproven players.

I have to say, although we still have lost three great players, no doubt about it, I'm slightly more relaxed abour the newbies as in the main, they've been better than I thought they would be.

So perversely, I'm less unhappy than many of the "we'll do fine" types who pre-season were creaming themselves, but are now slashing their wrists.

Because it is only 3 games; and we will have players returning.

Still a shite summer though IMO and my end season prediction of 15th-18th still stands.

This time last year, we were looking at teams above us and wondering if we can catch them. This season, I think we'll be mainly looking at teams below us and wondering if they can catch us. 

[RedorDead BCFC]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Firstly - Fair play to you for a well constructed post with your reasons and explanations 

But As for the above

Sorry I’m firmly sticking my hand up here

I posted in the week and I’ll say again the idea that last season (And the season before) are irrelevant , to be ignored (Whether positive or negative) and no indicator of LJs ability (Positive and negative)  to act as Manager / HC at this Club is IMHO complete nonsense

Every twist and turn , allowing some time to learn , every area , is part of an ongoing evaluation of his abilities 

 

If people want to quote last season’s results in amongst the three this season, why do they not quote the whole of last season? I’m all for people quoting reasons for him to go, but we can’t just pick a timeline to start but rubbish others starting point?  

 

[Davefevs]

Sorry, skipped over a few posts, but great starting posts from @Fuber and @Olé.  Let’s not give Ole all the plaudits, Fuber started it 

For me, LJ has been here long enough to move us forwards.  We still look a very similar side, with the same weaknesses as probably start of 16/17 season.  I think he can coach very well on the training ground, but has very little understanding of how to change a game within the 90 minutes itself.

I don’t like comments from him like:

’I can get them to 30 yards out, but they’ve got to be brave....blah blah blah’.

Perhaps he isn’t as good a coach (contradicting my own comment above)....and should be focusing training on both boxes, because those are our downfalls...especially defensively.

Fuber - I think you can blame budget...but only if you’re talking about getting promotion this season.   We are miles off the budgets of lots of clubs.  You can’t blame budget for getting a side that ought to be able to play in a style defined by a manager.  I still don’t see an out and out defined style.  If knocking the ball around the midfield is a style then we might as well play 0-10-0!

We are only 3 games in, in a tough start.  But that’s an excuse.  We will know more next Sunday after QPR and Swansea.  Do I expect us to be on 8 points, and panic over?  Nope.

I don’t want to be ‘Johnson out’, I don’t think it’s all Dunn to him, but the world of football dictates the manager / head-coach is the fall-guy.

[Alessandro]

This thread is making some great reading with interesting points all round.

Just a few thoughts - first - @BobBobSuperBob - without wishing to delve into debate on it, I think it’s only right that if we say he’s spent £37m plus on transfers, we should add for balance that in that same period we’ve sold around £50m worth of players. Not an excuse necessarily, just a fact.

My thoughts on LJ have always been that I agree with the process, but I can acknowledge the end product has, at best, been inconsistent.

For me, the club had under gone a pretty monumental change, at every level, over the past 3 or so years. I’m talking about in recruitment, the squad, the stadium, facilities, training, academy, Bristol Sport etc etc. 

We are, or have been in a transitional period.

It will inevitably take time to see if these changes will bear fruit. So my feelings are, with major changes behind the scenes, keeping that rock solid stability from a footballing side can only be a good thing. I believe a lot of the good work and systems put in place which hopefully we benefit from for years to come is not acknowledged by the fans - that is to say a manager, like LJ, in the position he is in is able to take a more long term view. A case in point is the development of Lloyd Kelly who has therefore been given the right balance of game time vs development - the result of which we are seeing, especially after that superb display yesterday.

I think what @Nogbad the Bad mentioned is also important. The club have to a certain extent built a rod for their own backs. They will stick by LJ, as he is their man for implementing ‘the plan’. The problem from a fans point of view, is that the rehtoric doesn’t match the actions. We hear from the club things like “premier league club in training” and then sell off our prize assets before we get there. I don’t mind us being a selling club and I can see through the rhetoric, but it confuses the fan base as a whole.

But can you blame the club? It’s a business after all. I think that with the massive outlay of the completed new stadium, the club wanted to strike while the iron was hot in terms of momentum and fan excitement. The reality we are seeing is the club cannot back up their words with budgets. 

Privately they know this. LJ knows this, SL knows it. 

So what do they do, they stick together. SL has a manager who will not rock the boat when his best players are sold and LJ has a platform to develop his reputation and experience. As long as we are competeing in this league that won’t change from SL’s angle. 

I’ve said elsewhere, IMO, 10/15 games in we’ll be competing in this league again and so the cycle continues.

What is amazing is quite how divisive the Johnson era has been. There are those who focus on the negatives, plenty to chose, and those who focus on the positives, of which there have been some goods one too. The problem here is that both camps are guilty of extreme views that wind each other up - we’ve been relegated or going down at least 3 times now under LJ or we are building something that will get us into the premier league. Of course the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

Bob also mentioned where is the next jewel coming from, well, if we have another season like last, we’ll struggle to keep hold of at least Pack, Brownhill, Kelly and potentially Famara.

Frustrating? Yes, while fans believe we are competeing for the play offs, yes, very.

@Olé -  r.e style of play and LJ. I wonder - LJ isn’t stupid, he is ambitious and hard-working. My thought is that every manager has a playing style and ethos. Perhaps what we are seeing is LJ’s - but the  reality is at this level on this budget, it won’t be a success. LJ probably knows that. But should he change?? Right now he is on display to future employers and because of the security of his job, he can continue to play ‘his’ style of football. A style of football that is more success and fashionable further up the tree. The result is outside perception of LJ is ‘a young manager who can build a well drilled team, that plays a style of football that is easy on the eye, on a modest budget’. LJ has a great shop window and his reputation is growing no doubt. Why would he change that unless he felt his only chance of success was with BCFC.

My point with this is, we all know that if we played the football we do now under LJ - with a much larger budget - the ability to sign a real top quality finisher, a hard nut centre back or two and a midfield maestro - well the current squad he has assembled and coached could well be a much more serious proposition in this league.

With our current budget and squad it seems we are not a serious proposition in this league this season. Not great for the fans.

I wouldn’t be surprised if LJ goes on to have a successful managerial career elsewhere, but that doesn’t matter to us - but as Ole says, his style of play on his budget might be a mismatch that will only get worse for BCFC.

 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

10 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

This thread is making some great reading with interesting points all round.

Just a few thoughts - first - @BobBobSuperBob - without wishing to delve into debate on it, I think it’s only right that if we say he’s spent £37m plus on transfers, we should add for balance that in that same period we’ve sold around £50m worth of players. Not an excuse necessarily, just a fact.

 

Quite true as , for balance , I’ve always pointed out

(It’s £42.45million.   Exactly £6million profit)

All good

Or is it

As I’ve also highlighted.for further balance     %90 of that £42.45 million came from the sale of Kodja , Flint, Bryan and Reid ..... none of whom he recruited , which is also a fact , although he must take some credit for Bobbys value increase) 

The rest is made up of token fees recouped at a loss (Hondur Possibly a slight exception) on offloading players that he did purchase

Doesnt look so bright after taking that into consideration IMHO

[Alessandro]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Quite true as I’ve always pointed out

(It’s £42.45million.   Exactly £6million profit)

All good

Or is it

As I’ve also highlighted.    %90 of that £42.45 million came from the sale of Kodja , Flint, Bryan and Reid ..... none of whom he recruited although he must take some credit for Bobbys value increase) 

The rest is made up of token fees recouped at a loss (Honduras Possibly a slight exception) on offloading players that he did purchase

Doesnt look so bright after taking that into consideration IMHO

I’m not saying LJ takes credit for the transfers at all. 

Just that those are the conditions of which he is working.

If you say he is a manager whose spent £30m plus, you have to quantify that with a £40m plus of players have been sold.

Not an excuse for LJ, just a fact of the conditions he as a manager has worked under. 

People always say he has been our most backed manager ever financially - yep true, but that’s half the story.

I cannot remember a manager in my lifetime who also had quite so many of his best players sold. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I’m not saying LJ takes credit for the transfers at all. 

Just that those are the conditions of which he is working.

If you say he is a manager whose spent £30m plus, you have to quantify that with a £40m plus of players have been sold.

Not an excuse for LJ, just a fact of the conditions he as a manager has worked under. 

People always say he has been our most backed manager ever financially - yep true, but that’s half the story.

I cannot remember a manager in my lifetime who also had quite so many of his best players sold. 

Four in three years and one up,until,the last window

( Weve always lost our better players ever since I’ve been watching and other clubs such as Preston and Brentford have coped in a much more stable way)

In the meantime he’d had lots and lots of time to plan replacements and squad formulation and managed to spend £36 odd million in allegedly improving us

[italian dave]

@Olé - good well reasoned post as usual, and a nice change from some of the pure negativity. I understand your view completely.

The big disappointment for me this season hasn't been the departures (expected, good fees, and all replaceable). Nor is it the incomings per se - all decent enough players and Weimann especially looks to give us something we've not had at this level. But, despite identifying it as a problem for months, we still haven't got anywhere near bringing in the leadership that we're so lacking. We don't (Diedhiou aside) have anyone with the ruthless instinct of a natural goalscorer and we certainly don't have the throw you life on the line and lead by example defensive player we're so evidently lacking. Webster - whatever other footballing qualities he has (and I've yet to be convinced about those) - is certainly not that personality. Baker never has been, and Wright isn't really either. A few years ago, when we had a similar need, we brought in Nyron Nosworthy on loan; now I know that was a different level, but a Championship version of him, and what he brought in that short stint, would do us a world of good.

That also worries me in relation to Lloyd Kelly. I think he's a fantastic player in the making. I've been watching City since the 1960s and I genuinely can't remember a young player we've brought through our youth set up who's got the potential he has - and that includes the likes of Chris Garland. But what he could really do with this season, as he establishes a place in the side, is a leader, a role model, alongside him, and he's not got it.

I also share your doubts about our style of play at this level; I just think LJ is sometimes a bit too purist in his pursuit of it. Man City and Barcelona may be great models, but you have to have exceptional players. Man City make it work because every player is able to make a one touch, inch perfect, pass, not just to another player, but to the exact place where he needs it. You have to do that with 100% accuracy 90% of the time to make it work, and the likes of Marley Watkins, Brownhill, Paterson cant do that consistently.

But, having said all that, I've also got two things that still leave me thinking that getting rid of LJ isn't the answer. Firstly, what do we do then? It's always the easy shout to get rid of the manager, but you can guarantee that there will always be even more diverse views on a replacement, no more guarantee of getting the right man than we've had of getting the keeper we've been after this summer, and - something we should certainly know - no guarantee of success when you do! 

Secondly, when I step back and look at all that time I've been following City, we're actually now in almost as good a place as we've ever been. I don't mean now as in three games into the season, or even the past 12 months. Progression isn't always linear, and there will be setbacks along the way, seasons when we finish lower than the last (and this might be one). But, when I started going to City we were pretty much a mid table second division side. I remember Tommy Docherty (the manager, not the City player) once saying that it was "good to see City back where they belonged....11th in the second division". I know what he meant; clubs have their 'natural' place - for all that Wigan had a spell in the Premiership, they're not a side anyone naturally thinks of a Premiership. We flirted with a spell in the First Division, but in all honesty we were still a second division side punching above our weight for a spell and just managing to hang on. By 1982 we were in the 4th - and pretty much for the subsequent 25 years we were no longer a second division side, we were firmly third division - with occasional forays into the 4th and 2nd. I genuinely feel now that we have just about re-established ourselves as a second division club: we're no longer everyone's automatic candidate for relegation, we're there with the Ipswiches - and although you might say we should aspire to more than that, after those 25 years, I'm happy to have got back to this place. And that's why I'm certainly nowhere near the "Lansdown is the problem" camp, and still, at the end of the day, unconvinced by the Johnson out arguments.

[Davefevs]

Some really good posts in this topic 

[Murraysrightplum]

2 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Last 50 years:

22 years in Div 3 and 4; 28 years in top two divisions.

In 106 seasons of League football:

47 in Divs 3 and 4; 59 in top two divisions.

 

Average league position is top 6 in the 3rd tier IIRC. Someone will no doubt have the stats for that one. 

Do you disagree with my main point that we are a small club in this division?

[pillred]

3 hours ago, Leroyfromthestart said:

Only part of your post I disagree with is the above. You're way too modest, your match reports, analysis and understanding of the game is exceptional. The club could really benefit from your viewpoint on the game, even if they just use your match reports to be used for analysing games from a supporter that not only is clearly passionate about the club (and speaks more sense than 99% of us) but I would also argue is as knowledgeable if not more than some in certain posts at the club.

I also don't agree with him saying a lot would like to see us go down as long as we were playing nice tippy tappy football, apart from that think he spoke for the vast majority on here that didn't have 2 hours to type out his post ha! ha!

[BRISTOL86]

Good post @Alessandro

[Fuber]

6 hours ago, RedDave said:

Maybe you should grow up mate!

 

The issue is Red. I've seen two many posts simply saying " we've improved each season" without stating by how much in comparison to money spent. No breakdown, just a flat out rejection, no discussion and breakdown of why we should be optimistic beside aforementioed two points.

One of the first replied to a slight rant I had about LJ's man management immediately slammed me as hating him as a player. Dyche was **** for us as a player - hes still a fantastic manager. And I didn't and still dont hate LJ. I'm fustrated with him like many are.

Preston highlight how an eclectic mix of League One, Premier League youngsters, experienced leaders, and academy players can improve and excel at this level playing quick effective football. A formula we've completely abandoned.

Instead of insulting me and telling to "grow up". Try highlighting a game since QPR last season where we've been effective.

I apologise for the insult. It was 4am and childish on my part.

[MC RISK77]

4 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I see the Johnson

hasn’t been backed

One hand tied behind his back

unfair ask

hasn’t been given the tools to do his job Etc 

 

has become the new trend amongst the ones who leap to his defence , whatever he does

Johnson has systematically dismantled the L1 title winning squad , replaced them with ‘his’ players , in amongst the 50 or so he’s gathered in

The wages we pay are at worst mid table 

and

He has spent £37 million pounds in his Five transfer windows here , in less than 3 years

Compare that to the vast majority of Clubs in last 3 years

This post sums up my feelings...have been a very strong supporter of Johnson and still would love to see it work out but patience ended over the summer our squad is weaker and it’s the same as last year lots of nice posession football without no cutting edge in the final third...go behind or other team equalise then we get on back foot.

players being played out of position too much deadwood still hanging around.

i really hope we have a rabbit up our sleeves in loan market as for me as it stands we have a long season ahead.

i think we will lose at qpr and swansea and Blackburn then already becomes a big game.

still think there are 3 worse clubs than us in that league but as you say bbsb a lot of money has been spent and now fully his squad which he always asked to be judged on.

i watched yesterday and saw the last mcinnes season all over again...Gameful triers but devoid of quality.

[Head&Shoulders]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Sorry, skipped over a few posts, but great starting posts from @Fuber and @Olé.  Let’s not give Ole all the plaudits, Fuber started it 

For me, LJ has been here long enough to move us forwards.  We still look a very similar side, with the same weaknesses as probably start of 16/17 season.  I think he can coach very well on the training ground, but has very little understanding of how to change a game within the 90 minutes itself.

I don’t like comments from him like:

’I can get them to 30 yards out, but they’ve got to be brave....blah blah blah’.

Agree here, and a lot of the other replies I’ve had to my comment I respect those too.

Interesting that you mention that quote @Davefevs as I believe it’s a Guardiola philosophy/saying, many times and you can see it on YouTube etc he’s said that his job is to get the players to like 25 yards out or to the box and then it’s the players responsibility to put the ball into the net, not his. I think we are all aware LJ is a big fan of Pep and Jose, (who isn’t) but I wonder if he’s got that sort of mindset/attitude because of them. Food for thought. 

 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Head&Shoulders said:

Agree here, and a lot of the other replies I’ve had to my comment I respect those too.

Interesting that you mention that quote @Davefevs as I believe it’s a Guardiola philosophy/saying, many times and you can see it on YouTube etc he’s said that his job is to get the players to like 25 yards out or to the box and then it’s the players responsibility to put the ball into the net, not his. I think we are all aware LJ is a big fan of Pep and Jose, (who isn’t) but I wonder if he’s got that sort of mindset/attitude because of them. Food for thought. 

 

Thanks for that, no idea it is Pep’s quote.

Peversely that makes me more angry.  LJ, be your own man.  LJ, You aren’t Pep.  That’s his little bit of arrogance that I don’t like, comparing himself to the likes of Pep.  LJ, you don’t have Pep’s players.  Pep has some of the best players in the world.  We don’t have any of the best players in the league.  You’re using the wrong model to build on. 

Just been watching Man City rip apart Huddersfield (Hamer performing Jekyll and Hyde), and with top, top players, they play off instinct, albeit you can bet your bottom dollar that they practice much of that quick interchange a lot, so that once they get into the final third they know the runs, what to expect.  It isn’t off the cuff.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Thanks for that, no idea it is Pep’s quote.

Peversely that makes me more angry.  LJ, be your own man. LJ, You aren’t Pep.   That’s his little bit of arrogance that I don’t like, comparing himself to the likes of Pep.  LJ, you don’t have Pep’s players.    Pep has some of the best players in the world.  We don’t have any of the best players in the league.  You’re using the wrong model to build on. 

Just been watching Man City rip apart Huddersfield (Hamer performing Jekyll and Hyde), and with top, top players, they play off instinct, albeit you can bet your bottom dollar that they practice much of that quick interchange a lot, so that once they get into the final third they know the runs, what to expect.  It isn’t off the cuff.

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

26 minutes ago, Murraysrightplum said:

Average league position is top 6 in the 3rd tier IIRC. Someone will no doubt have the stats for that one. 

Do you disagree with my main point that we are a small club in this division?

I like to divide 24 team divisions into thirds, so the top 8 (Leeds, Villa, Stoke etc) are the "big" clubs in this division, the middle 8 the "medium size" clubs, and the bottom 8 (Rotherham, Brentford, Preston, Millwall etc) the "small" clubs. Last season, we were the 12th best supported team in the Championship (higher average than Cardiff and Fulham, no less) so we can I like to think consider ourselves a "medium" size club, somewhere in that middle 8. But whether all this is reflected in wages and budget/revenue in relation to our competitors, I don't know. At a guess, we'd be one of the smaller "medium" sized clubs.

57 minutes ago, italian dave said:

@Olé 

Secondly, when I step back and look at all that time I've been following City, we're actually now in almost as good a place as we've ever been. I don't mean now as in three games into the season, or even the past 12 months. Progression isn't always linear, and there will be setbacks along the way, seasons when we finish lower than the last (and this might be one). But, when I started going to City we were pretty much a mid table second division side. I remember Tommy Docherty (the manager, not the City player) once saying that it was "good to see City back where they belonged....11th in the second division". I know what he meant; clubs have their 'natural' place - for all that Wigan had a spell in the Premiership, they're not a side anyone naturally thinks of a Premiership. We flirted with a spell in the First Division, but in all honesty we were still a second division side punching above our weight for a spell and just managing to hang on. By 1982 we were in the 4th - and pretty much for the subsequent 25 years we were no longer a second division side, we were firmly third division - with occasional forays into the 4th and 2nd. I genuinely feel now that we have just about re-established ourselves as a second division club: we're no longer everyone's automatic candidate for relegation, we're there with the Ipswiches - and although you might say we should aspire to more than that, after those 25 years, I'm happy to have got back to this place. And that's why I'm certainly nowhere near the "Lansdown is the problem" camp, and still, at the end of the day, unconvinced by the Johnson out arguments.

A great post, Dave, agree with lots of that. On the theme of our "natural" place in the grand scheme of things, I think billionaires are oblivious to such ideas and traditions, that they are used and expect to be able bend and fashion things to their own desires, as they believe they can be, that they can over-ride the achievements of lesser men, or less wealthy men, the mere millionaires that went before him. I don't reckon SL took the reins here thinking "I can maintain the status quo here, get us back to 11th in the Championship." I reckon he thought he could do a bit better than Scot Davidson and co. That he could take us further and bring about significant and lastingchange, including Bristol's natural status as a footballing nowhere. And there's one way and one place to be to achieve that.

The Lansdown stand is testament to the aim and intention - that's not a maintain the natural place of this club/ 11th in the second tier stand, let alone a L1 stand, nor was AV - but sadly, what we see on the pitch is testament to the way the Championship has shifted up considerably in money required, intensity of competition, and size of challenge.

49 clubs have played at least one season in the PL. If we are not the 50th or 51st,  I'd imagine SL would privately consider his efforts here disappointing, and a failure. 

 

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

7 hours ago, Olé said:

Decent post, and the fact it was at 4am is even more impressive.

I never had any issues with LJ as a player and I have no issues with him as a manager - I've always found this "cult of never-liked LJ" nonsense bizarre. I think he is a very likeable manager. He has a massive affinity for the club, he wants to play football the right way and he wants to promote and develop youth.

There is no agenda with LJ. What there is, as you illustrated, is the opposite - a repeated pre-emptive attempt to defend him and gloss over months and months of poor results. From people who then say LJ is treated unfairly! You couldn't make it up.  Either he's a proper manager who is accountable or he's not.

I feel conceited pointing this out as I've done it a number of times on here before and it's not meant to sound smug or intellectual, but as always it's not about the results it's about how we're playing. What are our ideas? How are we going to win matches? Is it something we can build on? How do we adapt?

I have no good answers to these questions. I just see a team shorn of it's talent, which has doubled down on an LJ clone army of slow, methodical, possession footballers. We look very good - that isn't a debate, Weimann is the best player we've acquired at this level. But we're zero threat, 25 yards deep of goal.

There's no pace, there's no change of pace, there's no pattern of play we return to because it causes problems (other than shooting from 20 yards). Bolton were comfortable soaking it up and Boro may as well have had the pipe and slippers out. We look decent in places opponents are happy for us to look decent.

I know less than 1% about football compared to LJ, so I'm not qualified to second guess him, but I just see a nice bloke who wants to be remembered as a bright innovative coach but whose "ideas" are incompatible with the players he signs and his use of them. @Harry's thread is excellent and just one example.

And to cap it all, Plan B, which has always been our achilles heel, and which more than ever feels like an inconvenience to LJ's stubborn determination to prove that he can get a low budget team playing like Man City, involved Webster suddenly punting three 50 yard long balls at 5'7" Taylor from the 75th minute. 

It's got to the stage (22 points in 24 games, second half of last season's performances included) where I honestly think a lot of people would be happy to see us go down so long as we did it being nice and playing nice football and indulging all these players as bright young things. It's the O'Dreary 4 pillars era mark II.

I'd rather be knee jerk than sleepwalk through another season like that. And there is nothing knee jerk about reacting to months of the same failed attempts to reproduce training ground football, and employing the same, if not worse (bar Kelly and Weimann) players, like some brute force attempt at up-skilling.

Paterson, Pisano, Brownhill, Smith, O'Dowda, Taylor. Even Pack. All nice people with flashes of talent but soft (physically and mentally) and routinely with their flaws and laboured (at times bewildered) trying to execute the LJ mantra - Man City football at 1mph and with Bristol City players. Add Webster to the list. 

The three players who on their day could boss it for 90 minutes all left. That's the difference. A good player finds ways to affect games regardless and does so relentlessly until opponents capitulate. Flint tried to win everything in both boxes. Reid was constantly getting inside defenders. Bryan could be a total pest.

What we have now is a lot of comfortable ball playing footballers who have little personality or individuality and who are employed to execute LJ's fanciful instructions and will still call it a good effort when the instructions don't work. A team of meaningless platitudes and excuses, not conviction and fight.

There is no question in my mind that Reid got to where he is through his own sheer hard work and determination, not some epiphany with LJ. Otherwise we'd see it with others. Come back to me when Paterson has run a game by making the right attacking decisions 100% of the time, not just one time in ten.

I was worried right from the Forest game and I'm even more worried now the answer to everything is Famara Diedhiou - forgetting the fact that to accommodate him we will lose a body in midfield, an area we surrendered rapidly most of this bad run. It's as if people think we actually get to play an extra player!

We're not "just three games into the season". This manager has (rightly) had years and a lot of fan and media indulgence because of his youth, his "innovation" and his desire to win on his terms and his terms alone. But there is only so long "potential" can be used to excuse a downgrading of players and results.

So no, he is not unfairly treated, and there is not some anti-LJ agenda. What there is, is a very realistic and sadly very flat reaction to our preparedness for his 3rd full season from people who've been force fed the spin for too long (even I was surprised talking to people yesterday I consider the yardstick of optimism). 

"WE GO AGAIN".

You have got it exactly right,  it not a question of liking or hating LJ,  it's what we see on the pitch that matters and that is just not good enough.

[headhunter]

3 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I keep seeing Dean Smith, why? I can’t think of a more like for like change than Smith for Johnson? Their records are basically carbon copies of each other. 

And it’s a myth that he’s working with a shoestring budget. They pay decent wages and spend big money. And have a considerably better scouting operation. 

Whilst Smith is no great shakes IMHO [and I know a few Bees fans who wouldn't shout his praises that much] their success must be down to their player recruitment. Here that is largely Ashton's department and I think he has exerted a Svengali like influence on SL. I think MA won't be here 12 months from now as I think he'll move on before he's found out and his elevation to the EFL board may convince someone at a bigger club that he is a good egg and be taken in by his smooth talking!

Brentford achieve on gates half that of those we currently enjoy but I think they have a hard nosed Chairman in Benham not the snowflake that I fear SL is. Peter Hargreaves was the driving force behind Hargreaves Lansdown and what I know of him is such that if he had shared SL's interest in football we would be an established Premier league side. 

In his tenure as Chairman SL has spunked away pretty much £10m each season [excluding ground redevelopment] rather than going for it with conviction and having the ££ to not worry about FFP if failing. One season in the Prem and he would recoup all of his money if he wanted to pull it out and let the club be relegated at the first attempt.

[Alessandro]

5 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Four in three years and one up,until,the last window

( Weve always lost our better players ever since I’ve been watching and other clubs such as Preston and Brentford have coped in a much more stable way)

In the meantime he’d had lots and lots of time to plan replacements and squad formulation and managed to spend £36 odd million in allegedly improving us

Yes I agree he has, but as I say, whilst still under the conditions of selling £40m plus of assets.

All I’m saying is there needs to be a balance to any statement along the lines of ‘LJ has spent £37m on players’.

Ultimately - the raw figures shows more money coming in than going out during LJ’s time and 4 of his squads most valuable assets sold off.

The argument of whether LJ has got value for money on what he has spent of course will, and does divide opinion.

[REDOXO]

10 hours ago, Murraysrightplum said:

All the self proclaimed ‘Realists’ who want LJ out so we can have the inevitable promotion push maybe should look at the actual reality that we have only done that once in 50+ years and we have spent most of our time in L1. We are a small low spending, selling club in championship terms. That is the reality for all those ‘realists’.

I don’t know if LJ is the right man to lead the club - he’s done some excellent things but also some bone headed things. As I’ve said in other threads, he’s still just about in credit for me but the results up to Xmas will be telling as to his future. I’m pretty sure SL will be thinking similar things

No one expects an inevitable promotion push if LJ was fired. What people are concerned of is the continuation of a horror run of results that cost us a play off spot and if unchecked will see us in the bottom theee by Wednesday morning. A position our play since Xmas richly deserves, extending that run until coming Xmas as you suggest to give LJ More time is highly questionable process. For many EO October and being in a relegation battle will be enough