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LJ publicly puts pressure on SL for signings


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11 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

But would you trust LJ with any money?

Five/six windows and 40 plus players in and STILL need a ‘spine’ of leaders, physically and mentally robust, consistent 7/10 players. Keeper, centre back, centre midfield, centre forward. 

I think some may view his chances as running out, and that now may include SL.

‘Talks a good game’ similar to ‘Knows what he needs,’ but time and time again he fails to deliver. Staggering.

He’s clearly identified a lack of leaders and players ready to stand up to the physical challenge of the Championship. What ‘leaders’and ‘warriors’ did he buy in this Summer?

Its all now becoming a bit of a shambles I fear. 

What 'leaders' were available in the market and were going to come in and improve us as a team?

He wouldn't come out with statements and not look to fulfill them. But those type of players are rare and are probably already settled at other clubs within the championship. Why would they uproot and leave for Bristol City.

We want leaders with championship experience. The only teams we will cherry pick from is those like Ipswich, QPR, Hull etc.... anyone you fancy is those teams, no me neither..

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2 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Flint was an O'Driscoll signing.

Otherwise you make some good points.

Like any club SL has two choices as it gets harder each year to reach the riches of the PL; 

1. He employs someone who has a number of promotions under their belt from tier 2 to tier 1; there are not many. Hughes, Warnock, Allardyce. Warnock probably has the best record of promoting a team without spending much in comparison to others. The Cardiff success was probably his greatest achievement and he said it himself.

2. Or, he employs someone like Lee Johnson but he backs him substantially more than he is doing. You have to, the competition is fierce and relentless. Faffing about with mediocre players is increasingly not going to get u promoted with a relatively inexperienced manager; the odds are simply too great.

So SL has chosen neither of these routes for what? To hang around in a league where it is nigh on impossible to make a profit all the while watching the difficulty level increase every year. Where the pay out bonanza is 100 million plus for failure instead of a few hundred k for ending up 11th in the Championship.

This is all down to the owners philosophy and it has not been working for a decade.

 

and wont work for the next decade either unless he bites the bullet and kicks some butt; cannot see too much changing though as he answers to no-one and will do what he wants......because he can.

Its been a long while since we were up in the top flight, could be a lot longer yet........ BIG changes needed and some more drive and ambition.

Certainly will cost big bucks in the prem maybe we just aren't big enough to try to get there again.

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6 minutes ago, Bri Stool City said:

and wont work for the next decade either unless he bites the bullet and kicks some butt; cannot see too much changing though as he answers to no-one and will do what he wants......because he can.

Its been a long while since we were up in the top flight, could be a lot longer yet........ BIG changes needed and some more drive and ambition.

Certainly will cost big bucks in the prem maybe we just aren't big enough to try to get there again.

I believe we could add a bit of pragmatism to our current approach for sure. Can we do it better? Absolutely!

Yet this is Year one in the plan being applied in full...how well we reinvest and the quality of coaching will be key as to how we move forwards IMO.

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3 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Flint was an O'Driscoll signing.

Otherwise you make some good points.

Like any club SL has two choices as it gets harder each year to reach the riches of the PL; 

1. He employs someone who has a number of promotions under their belt from tier 2 to tier 1; there are not many. Hughes, Warnock, Allardyce. Warnock probably has the best record of promoting a team without spending much in comparison to others. The Cardiff success was probably his greatest achievement and he said it himself.

2. Or, he employs someone like Lee Johnson but he backs him substantially more than he is doing. You have to, the competition is fierce and relentless. Faffing about with mediocre players is increasingly not going to get u promoted with a relatively inexperienced manager; the odds are simply too great.

So SL has chosen neither of these routes for what? To hang around in a league where it is nigh on impossible to make a profit all the while watching the difficulty level increase every year. Where the pay out bonanza is 100 million plus for failure instead of a few hundred k for ending up 11th in the Championship.

This is all down to the owners philosophy and it has not been working for a decade.

 

Spot on for me. 

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13 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yet this is Year one in the plan being applied in full...how well we reinvest and the quality of coaching will be key as to how we move forwards IMO.

Year one?

Wasn't the big money we got for Kodjia in 2016 the beginning of the cycle. We got his fee plus the sell-on fees from Bolasie and Albert around the same time.

That was reinvested in FD and a load of 'one for the future' players. So really that incoming money probably kicked started it and we are more like into the third season of the Plan. 

Hard to see that we've moved forward massively in that time. A lot of sideways movement which is very apt given the current style of football.

 

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12 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

Year one?

Wasn't the big money we got for Kodjia in 2016 the beginning of the cycle. We got his fee plus the sell-on fees from Bolasie and Albert around the same time.

That was reinvested in FD and a load of 'one for the future' players. So really that incoming money probably kicked started it and we are more like into the third season of the Plan. 

Hard to see that we've moved forward massively in that time. A lot of sideways movement which is very apt given the current style of football.

 

Without that money from Kodjia, Bolassie and Adomah (both sell-ons), we probably would still be struggling to establish ourselves....or fighting FFP.   

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1 hour ago, ForeverRes said:

What a fantastic post. One of the best I've seen on here in a while !!

Some realism at last! 

Johnson can already feel the pressure! The fans are just waiting to go for his throats. I can imagine he's thinking, hold on a minute, you rip away £25m of quality from my team and expect us to be better?

I think Lansdowns comments pre season about expecting progression and top 10 is an absolute joke! 

 

Perhaps his thinking was along the lines that for 1/2 season we were good enough for top 2, so a target of top 10 when losing 3 players, isn't too demanding?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Brentford and Preston finish top 10 again and they generally lose their better players regularly, so why not Bristol City? 

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2 minutes ago, fgrsimon said:

Perhaps his thinking was along the lines that for 1/2 season we were good enough for top 2, so a target of top 10 when losing 3 players, isn't too demanding?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Brentford and Preston finish top 10 again and they generally lose their better players regularly, so why not Bristol City? 

I'm sorry, but no. Over the course of the season we weren't good enough, we rightly finished 11th.. Johnson pulled a playing style out his arse that carried us into top 2. We weren't good enough to maintain that. 

We now lose our 3 best players and expect to build on that! WHY ARE PEOPLE SO CONFUSED ABOUT WHY WE APPEAR TO BE WEAKER. 

Its remarkable 

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53 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

Year one?

Wasn't the big money we got for Kodjia in 2016 the beginning of the cycle. We got his fee plus the sell-on fees from Bolasie and Albert around the same time.

That was reinvested in FD and a load of 'one for the future' players. So really that incoming money probably kicked started it and we are more like into the third season of the Plan. 

Hard to see that we've moved forward massively in that time. A lot of sideways movement which is very apt given the current style of football.

 

I'm not sure. To me this feels like proper year one in the sense of a big gap between incoming and outgoing.

I'll look again at the net spend for each year but this year feels more decisive somehow as in Jan 2017 we loaned Giefer and Cotterill, and signed Hegeler, Taylor and Djuric. Plus last season I'm sure we spent more on fees than we brought in...this feels like I should have said the full application of this model.

Course it could be that this season is the exception in terms of profit made and fees brought in- time will tell.

@ForeverRes Our remarkable form from particularly late October to the end of December was for a variety of factors I think. Credit to LJ for the style hr created but also I think a combination of his tactical innovations, injuries funnily enough (in no way is Wright a natural full back and to an extent was Magnússon a left back or centre back? Hard to say) and the momentum of the brilliant Cup run helped put us up there.

Should have made playoffs from where we were Boxing Day 5pm I think. Was a unique set of circs, perfect storm with plenty of momentum and confidence and a tactical shape that helped fit the moment perfectly in December which all contributed.

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Yes we've had injuries and LJ is now publicly asking for his team to be strengthened with funds from SL & the board.

A few things that bother me about this ;

why wait until the transfer window is shut and just over a week until the loan market closes to address the problem. We are not just a player short are we....

How can we be so far away from having the correct balance and personnel, with 4 games already played! is the loan market going to provide us what we need.

If we were looking at the loan market to say solely, replace an injury to a CB, then that would be ok, obviously providing you had the said player in mind and knew he was a realistic target.

Why send out ZV to a rival, especially when BW is injured, Baker is a sick note and doesn't seem to want to be here.

Why are we IMHO, still without a strong spine to the team. We lack a commanding Keeper, to organise and dominate in set pieces. A ball winning leader at CB, someone like......Flint. How about a creative CM or 1 who can put his foot in and give us some much needed bite. Last but not least a big, ugly CF, who will hold up play, be a ball ache at set pieces at both ends and most importantly, be in the middle for our wingers to target, we finally get the service and threat correct from the flanks, but unbelievably have np big man to cash in on the crosses.

This transfer window has been a farce. 

I firmly believe that public whimper, his cry for help is just too little, too late. I give LJ until XMAS.

The current balance of this squad screams out problems, serious problems

 

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For the last 3 years we’ve been investing heavily in ‘ones for the future’

Well LJ the futures now here and it’s not feeling like that plan has worked,  

I’m sure with the money invested we have a infinite supply of young stars coming off that ‘one for the future’ production line so no need to panic about the poor squad, weak spine and lack of leaders.  Or maybe they just knew how gullible us fans are!

 

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5 hours ago, BigAlToby&Liam said:

Is that what it is? £30M out and £10M in?

Whale eye beef hooked as someone else once was called.

What’s happened to the missing £20M? Doesn’t seem to have been reinvested. 

Someones had a dividend. Or a bonus. 

And there my friends lays the problem. Others have far more appetite to succeed.....

 Obviously I do not know who we went for signing wise this season but its so easy to say why didnt we sign those players...  I'm on the fence with this one.... my first instinct is to say we signed players early and sold most early too so we knew what we were doing saving money wise...so it is painful for watch us do this.

The other part of me wonders maybe we did go for quality players but couldn't persaude them to come here or afford there wages... It's easy to splash 5-10 million on a player but then we have to pay the high wages.we are competeting with teams with parachute payments and teams like Forest who are just throwing money about like there is no tomorrow.

I know we havent done that well with the european market.... hence why we have not got this route this time but  this also is another constraint if all other champ teams are going for the same players. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

Lansdown asking for top 10 after selling our 3 best players and not reinvesting to replace the quality is not putting Johnson under pressure?

**** me!!

Ofcourse Johnson is gunna be frustrated, he's looking at his squad and knows it's damn sight weaker than last year? But everyone is expecting progression?

Wouldn't you be a little pee'd off? 

While I earlier advocated SL needing to back a rookie much more than an experienced hand and I 100% stand by that I think the ground has shifted since LJ very recently came out with those remarks asking for more funds. They have shifted because as others have said you don't ask for more funds when we are close to the transfer window closing; your hand is all but played. That said, and this is the worrying part, if you are LJ, He is making a 'i told you so' statement by asking for more funds saying he was not given enough in the first place and had to buy mediocre players.

I think there is something at play here and it smells a bit off; lets see how it plays out. a win at QPR will ease what may be a very small crack appearing the 'special relationship'.

5 hours ago, Bri Stool City said:

and wont work for the next decade either unless he bites the bullet and kicks some butt; cannot see too much changing though as he answers to no-one and will do what he wants......because he can.

Its been a long while since we were up in the top flight, could be a lot longer yet........ BIG changes needed and some more drive and ambition.

Certainly will cost big bucks in the prem maybe we just aren't big enough to try to get there again.

In our case size is definitely not the issue. Look at all the smallish teams who have risen in the past 42 years.

3 hours ago, YorkshireSection said:

Yes we've had injuries and LJ is now publicly asking for his team to be strengthened with funds from SL & the board.

A few things that bother me about this ;

why wait until the transfer window is shut and just over a week until the loan market closes to address the problem. We are not just a player short are we.... I have suggested some suggestion for this above here.

How can we be so far away from having the correct balance and personnel, with 4 games already played! is the loan market going to provide us what we need.

If we were looking at the loan market to say solely, replace an injury to a CB, then that would be ok, obviously providing you had the said player in mind and knew he was a realistic target.

Why send out ZV to a rival, especially when BW is injured, Baker is a sick note and doesn't seem to want to be here.

Why are we IMHO, still without a strong spine to the team. We lack a commanding Keeper, to organise and dominate in set pieces. A ball winning leader at CB, someone like......Flint. How about a creative CM or 1 who can put his foot in and give us some much needed bite. Last but not least a big, ugly CF, who will hold up play, be a ball ache at set pieces at both ends and most importantly, be in the middle for our wingers to target, we finally get the service and threat correct from the flanks, but unbelievably have np big man to cash in on the crosses.

This transfer window has been a farce. Very much too early to say this.

I firmly believe that public whimper, his cry for help is just too little, too late. I give LJ until XMAS.

The current balance of this squad screams out problems, serious problems

 

While it is way too early to judge the summer purchases there is a distinct whiff of mediocre signings right across the 3 years of LJ's tenure. There is a smattering of 'good uns' and others may or should rise to become very good players. By contrast you can look at Pulis, Warnock, Dyche, Howe and others and analyse their transfers in the respective Championship promotion campaigns. The latter 2 names were relative rookies in their first promotion to the PL and it illustrates old or young there is a talent pool of coaches available that can work within budget restraints and still obtain success. 

3 years in to the City project and we are, many of us, questioning whether LJ has that talent in sufficient quantity. Perhaps SL is asking too much when restricting more recognised and successful players from coming to the club because they are simply too expensive for his taste both signing and salary.

What SL should have done, if we are to believe one ounce of what Ashton said*, is to give LJ the resources to go out and directly replace Flint, Bryan and Reid; Webster, Kelly and Weimann are not, yet, to that standard. So its future buying yet again. Instead LJ spent about half (correct me if I am wrong) the funds that will be coming in for those 3 players, if the info is correct, and it is early days but looks like we have bought more quantity than quality.

And so we return to now where LJ is exasperated, hit with injuries to the back line and rolls the dice asking for replacements; If Hunt and Webster had been a notch above what they are I do not believe he would need to.

*Ashton told us in his last interview that all 3 of our best players wanted to leave and the club did everything in their power to entice them to stay; by definition that means City are ambitious and, plan B, would have to, by default, replace them with like for like. Have they done that? No. The club will only have themselves to blame, yet again, if we struggle all season. Early signs are not good. Lets hope we beat QPR comfortably and all this depressing talk can be put to bed. Perhaps wishful thinking.

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1 hour ago, miketh2nd said:

The other part of me wonders maybe we did go for quality players but couldn't persaude them to come here or afford there wages... It's easy to splash 5-10 million on a player but then we have to pay the high wages.we are competeting with teams with parachute payments and teams like Forest who are just throwing money about like there is no tomorrow.

I know we havent done that well with the european market.... hence why we have not got this route this time but  this also is another constraint if all other champ teams are going for the same players. 

All of which reminds us that it is down to the coaches and powers that be at the club to persuade those players more convincingly to join. If there are many slipping through the fingers because they cannot then you have to look at the personnel doing the selling job. Look at what Flinty said about leaving City to join Boro.. i will translate it...

I gave City 3 more years in the Championship (all under LJ) and felt we were going nowhere fast; in Pulis I have a lot more confidence we will get there faster. 

Boro are no more 'glamourous' than City. If you have an uninspiring rookie at the helm with no promotions to his name you are always gonna struggle getting first or even second choice players to sign and so it seems to have panned out. SL will continue to shell out and back his boy, a little bit but just not enough, his boy will fail to bring the big players in he really needs, deal with also rans and up and comings all still with talent and hope for the best. 5 windows in and its same old same old.

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12 hours ago, Red Cloud said:

I was thinking that, he asked for 3 transfer windows and has had at least 5, signed dozens and dozens of players and we still look kak (most of the time), why would SL give him any more money? - I wouldn't, LJ has had unbelievable support from the board and blown it and now wants more money!

Yet we have made progress year on year so has he blown it? During that time he’s also had to replace, Kodjia, Tammy, Reid, Tomlin, Bryan, Flint and Reid, imagine a side with those lot in it.

At some point it’s going to be difficult to keep replacing these players and time and patience will be needed. 

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5 hours ago, havanatopia said:

t again. Instead LJ spent about half (correct me if I am wrong) the funds that will be coming in for those 3 players, if the info is correct, and it is early days but looks like we have bought more quantity than quality.

And so we return to now where LJ is exasperated, hit with injuries to the back line and rolls the dice asking for replacements; If Hunt and Webster had been a notch above what they are I do not believe he would need to.

*Ashton told us in his last interview that all 3 of our best players wanted to leave and the club did everything in their power to entice them to stay; by definition that means City are ambitious and, plan B, would have to, by default, replace them with like for like. Have they done that? No. The club will only have themselves to blame, yet again, if we struggle all season. Early signs are not good. Lets hope we beat QPR comfortably and all this depressing talk can be put to bed. Perhaps wishful thinking.

I have posted on this quantity over quality point several times.

We sign 8 players on £12k per week rather than 4 quality at £24k per week - the annual cost is the same. if the quality get injured you bring in the youngster who is being groomed in the U23 squad.

LJ is like his father - he can't manage the stars and their egos. SL has that Bristolian thing of I'm not going to pay that amount

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5 hours ago, havanatopia said:

All of which reminds us that it is down to the coaches and powers that be at the club to persuade those players more convincingly to join. If there are many slipping through the fingers because they cannot then you have to look at the personnel doing the selling job. Look at what Flinty said about leaving City to join Boro.. i will translate it...

I gave City 3 more years in the Championship (all under LJ) and felt we were going nowhere fast; in Pulis I have a lot more confidence we will get there faster. 

Boro are no more 'glamourous' than City. If you have an uninspiring rookie at the helm with no promotions to his name you are always gonna struggle getting first or even second choice players to sign and so it seems to have panned out. SL will continue to shell out and back his boy, a little bit but just not enough, his boy will fail to bring the big players in he really needs, deal with also rans and up and comings all still with talent and hope for the best. 5 windows in and its same old same old.

Spot on. And as was pointed out at the time we were in exactly the same position when Millen was appointed after the Coppell fiasco. SL had initially appointed a manager with precisely the experience to build on the momentum created by the play-off pushes, but for whatever reason got his fingers burned and in his humiliation reverted to type with a man who would pose no awkward questions...and get us nowhere The problem, and solution, lies with Lansdown.

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6 minutes ago, headhunter said:

I have posted on this quantity over quality point several times.

We sign 8 players on £12k per week rather than 4 quality at £24k per week - the annual cost is the same. if the quality get injured you bring in the youngster who is being groomed in the U23 squad.

LJ is like his father - he can't manage the stars and their egos. SL has that Bristolian thing of I'm not going to pay that amount

And then what about the rest of the squad who then want inflated wages? 

There is nothing to suggest that LJ can’t manage ego’s as most footballers earning 10k+ a week will have one and you probably need one to make it as far as they have. And before anyone says about Tomlin then show me a manager that has been able to handle him, Warnock only managed about 6 months so more great business by the club to offload him for 3m.

All I see it LJ working to a budget set by his boss

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2 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Spot on. And as was pointed out at the time we were in exactly the same position when Millen was appointed after the Coppell fiasco. SL had initially appointed a manager with precisely the experience to build on the momentum created by the play-off pushes, but for whatever reason got his fingers burned and in his humiliation reverted to type with a man who would pose no awkward questions...and get us nowhere The problem, and solution, lies with Lansdown.

Double your money had nothing to do with it of course...:

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He shouldn't be given another penny.

He has squad players that he can use to fit those positions but doesn't use them. Sorry, but he needs to start being a head coach and get the best out of his squad. Every other team in our position manages it with injuries.

He had a left back on the bench Saturday he has brought in on loan but chose not to play him. Lloyd Kelly is a good centre back as proven who played alongside his new signing. His new signings contributed to the comedy first goal. 

If you want to prove to people you are a competent young coach who has ambitions of working at a higher level, stop bleating on about injuries and needing more players to fill a gap, most clubs in our position in this league don't have a billionaire owner and they certainly haven't been given the funds he has.

The Championship is a tough league and it's time to show the fans and the clubs owner he has the tactical know how and coaching ability to see out a mini injury crisis without going to the press with a shrug of the shoulders and a begging bowl.

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31 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Double your money had nothing to do with it of course...:

...as I say, we don't know the exact reasons, but the outcome of Coppell's departure was that we ended up with a manager - like 'trust me on' Tinnion - who'd achieved nothing...and would achieve nothing, but who would toe the party line. Lansdown wants to believe that he's special, that he's spotted people no one else has seen. It would be great for him if LJ turned out to be the next Pep. He'll stubbornly stick with that idea until it explodes...probably at the point that LJ realises that being a character in someone else's fantasy isn't doing his credibility any good... 

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10 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

When the penny or billion finally drops for SL and he realises that he has an inferior head coach, where will LJ end up next? 

Premier, Championship? Extremely doubtful. 

League One or Two? Doubtful, except for Yeovil. 

Anyone care to disagree? 

Spot on. Very hard to imagine another Championship club, or an ambitious League One club appointing him. He's won nothing. More effective as part of a coaching team I'd suggest...like Tinnion and Millen before him. Although I'm sure that's not how he sees himself.

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We must have made money from our cup run last year, unexpected money. Where did all that go, I expect LJ was hoping for that and more to replace the three players we sold, plus players like Magnusson and Djuric whose wages if nothing else are saved. Did all the cup money go on Dionne and paying Liverpool for not playing Kent? I can’t believe the players we have got in, not all of them anyway are on the wages Mags and Milan were?

This year we are out of the Cup ( with pretty much a whimper)so will we later be told budgets are tight as we didn’t have a cup run? You can’t have it both ways! 

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14 minutes ago, RedM said:

We must have made money from our cup run last year, unexpected money. Where did all that go, I expect LJ was hoping for that and more to replace the three players we sold, plus players like Magnússon and Djuric whose wages if nothing else are saved. Did all the cup money go on Dionne and paying Liverpool for not playing Kent? I can’t believe the players we have got in, not all of them anyway are on the wages Mags and Milan were?

This year we are out of the Cup ( with pretty much a whimper)so will we later be told budgets are tight as we didn’t have a cup run? You can’t have it both ways! 

We did, but it went towards helping stem losses.

The accounts from 16/17 are freely available on Companies House and a key equation to look for is profit/loss minus profit on transfers.

Plus, though I maybe wrong on this- the accounts I look at are "Bristol City Holdings Limited". Maybe I'm wrong and "Bristol City Football Club Limited" is the correct one? :dunno:

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There's a lot of emphasis being put on the short-term, with people saying that replacing £30m of talent with £10m isn't great for LJ, but in my opinion this is much bigger than it being a problem for this season.

This isn't a freak occurrance. Selling our best players and playing the market is the long-term strategy of the club. What happened this summer is exactly what Lansdown wanted to happen, because it meant the club pulled in a profit for spending to be viable.

If you see it as an attack on the owner, then it's more than that. It's an attack on the very business model that Lansdown wants to implement at this club - the same business model that his predecessor fought against to bring us back from League 1.

The difference between Cotts and LJ is that LJ has been backed in the transfer market. We didn't bring in no one, after all. We made plenty of signings, and if they're not up to scratch then that's on whoever is responsible for transfers.

IMO, it wasn't an attack on the owner. I reckon the club is still looking to make loan signings to fix any gaps, but the club wanted to assess performances against two very strong teams to see what holes need plugging.

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