LJ publicly puts pressure on SL for signings

[hoxton casual]

On 19/08/2018 at 08:29, spudski said:

Whilst the Clubs philosophy is admirable...It's not going to give us a chance of any type of Promotion in the near future.

However...I'm not sure of a solution anymore, as we cannot compete with the amount of money floating around in this division. And it's only going to get worse imo.

What we have developed is way of competing in this division, without the money, that will give us a chance to establish ourselves in the division, but not a chance in hell of promotion.

It's a catch 22 tbh.

When fans talk about brining in a new coach or manager, I'm not sure there are many out there that would agree to work under the Clubs philosophy...as it is long term, and the majority of managers work short term. It's how it is...regardless of what's agreed at interview stage. Once a manager or coach has got that 3-4 year contract under his belt, the mindset is all about self survival, not Club survival, as it's their career...they need short term success to keep in the shop window.

I can see us becoming like the 'Crewe' of the Championship if we continue in the same philosophy. LJ being like Dario Gradi.

Whilst I believe LJ wants the philosophy to work, he's now finding out how difficult it's going to be, especially when you do have a half decent season and you lose 3 of your better players in one go. That's the future under this philosophy.

At some point the pressure will become too much and either he will leave, or get sacked, and the next coach manager will be an inexperienced coach or manager at this level, who see's it as a big opportunity and will say anything to get the job.

Not many experienced managers would come here and actually work with the Clubs philosophy.

I can see it becoming like when Mick was at Ipswich...knowing the limitations and doing the best you can...being very honest in interviews but with an air of frustration as deep down you know you are just keeping a ship afloat.

I give you Brentford FC. They have smaller budgets than us and attract far more talent. Something is wrong in the scouting/negotiating part of the recruitment system. We cannot rely on an Level 2 Academy to get us where we want to get to. We need to be canny in the market. Do players not want to come here because they don't believe in LJ, and the overall set up? In the dark days of Bristol Rugby pre-Pat Lam, any talented player would not touch Bristol with a barge pole because of Robinson.

Lets hope we can show some real clever moves with loans in the next few weeks but the experience of Kent/Leko not being played may count against us. Not playing Da Silva until last 20 minutes of game 4 does not also give a great view to Premiership clubs that their loans will play regularly.

[hoxton casual]

49 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

There's a lot of emphasis being put on the short-term, with people saying that replacing £30m of talent with £10m isn't great for LJ, but in my opinion this is much bigger than it being a problem for this season.

This isn't a freak occurrance. Selling our best players and playing the market is the long-term strategy of the club. What happened this summer is exactly what Lansdown wanted to happen, because it meant the club pulled in a profit for spending to be viable.

If you see it as an attack on the owner, then it's more than that. It's an attack on the very business model that Lansdown wants to implement at this club - the same business model that his predecessor fought against to bring us back from League 1.

The difference between Cotts and LJ is that LJ has been backed in the transfer market. We didn't bring in no one, after all. We made plenty of signings, and if they're not up to scratch then that's on whoever is responsible for transfers.

IMO, it wasn't an attack on the owner. I reckon the club is still looking to make loan signings to fix any gaps, but the club wanted to assess performances against two very strong teams to see what holes need plugging.

Its an attack on Ashton and the scouting network.

[Major Isewater]

3 minutes ago, hoxton casual said:

Its an attack on Ashton and the scouting network.

Who ultimately report back to our owner who obviously thinks they're good enough.

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, hoxton casual said:

I give you Brentford FC. They have smaller budgets than us and attract far more talent. Something is wrong in the scouting/negotiating part of the recruitment system. We cannot rely on an Level 2 Academy to get us where we want to get to. We need to be canny in the market. Do players not want to come here because they don't believe in LJ, and the overall set up? In the dark days of Bristol Rugby pre-Pat Lam, any talented player would not touch Bristol with a barge pole because of Robinson.

Lets hope we can show some real clever moves with loans in the next few weeks but the experience of Kent/Leko not being played may count against us. Not playing Da Silva until last 20 minutes of game 4 does not also give a great view to Premiership clubs that their loans will play regularly.

They are brilliant at it. Other clubs also have the odd good summer where they sell a big player and re-invest strengthening the spine and depth as a whole- see Sheffield United. Sold Brooks, loaned in Henderson, brought Egan, loaned Woodburn, signed Norwood with a loan to buy and got McGoldrick on a free. Releasing a load of free agents also helped free up the wages for that. Think they also brought a young defender from Man City too.

However, this is our first proper year with this model IMO. Our Kodjia sale fell into the category of reinvestment post sale of a big player I thought- this is a proper full committal to the model, and time will tell as to how well we've reinvested.

Agree on the last point- Kent, Leko not playing won't help, but OTOH playing Tammy as much as we did a big counter-balance.

[downendcity]

1 minute ago, Major Isewater said:

Who ultimately report back to our owner who obviously thinks they're good enough.

Who then asks Maggie what she thinks we should do!  

 

[EnderMB]

1 minute ago, hoxton casual said:

Its an attack on Ashton and the scouting network.

But what is the answer to that? We don't have the money to spend on a huge scouting network, and Lansdown/Ashton have long been against the agent culture of football - a move that has probably caused more harm to us than good.

The only two ways around this are:

1. We double-down on our recruitment, and build a scouting network worthy of a Premier League team. This is what we should be doing right now, since we've just taken two academy players, given them a chance in our first-team, offered them opportunities to score against Premier League opposition, and have sold them to Premier League teams. LJ should be picking up the Atletico Madrid mantra of "we take players and make them better", and telling every youngster in this country that Bristol City is a place that gives opportunities for the Premier League. I reckon we could spend the extra £10m just on a scouting network for the next decade, and we'd be nearer to promotion than we would be as we are now.
2. We go the Wolves approach - we use Ashton to broker deals with top agents from around the world to introduce them to the English market. This is a perfectly valid approach IMO, albeit a very risky one since we're betting our short-term future on a business that could offer us monkeys if we pay peanuts.

[Major Isewater]

19 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Who then asks Maggie what she thinks we should do!  

 

Maggie out 

[Mr Popodopolous]

19 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

But what is the answer to that? We don't have the money to spend on a huge scouting network, and Lansdown/Ashton have long been against the agent culture of football - a move that has probably caused more harm to us than good.

The only two ways around this are:

1. We double-down on our recruitment, and build a scouting network worthy of a Premier League team. This is what we should be doing right now, since we've just taken two academy players, given them a chance in our first-team, offered them opportunities to score against Premier League opposition, and have sold them to Premier League teams. LJ should be picking up the Atletico Madrid mantra of "we take players and make them better", and telling every youngster in this country that Bristol City is a place that gives opportunities for the Premier League. I reckon we could spend the extra £10m just on a scouting network for the next decade, and we'd be nearer to promotion than we would be as we are now.
2. We go the Wolves approach - we use Ashton to broker deals with top agents from around the world to introduce them to the English market. This is a perfectly valid approach IMO, albeit a very risky one since we're betting our short-term future on a business that could offer us monkeys if we pay peanuts.

Actually think a lot of PL sides can be quite lazy in scouting because they are so cash rich. Easy when you have a lot of cash to look at player here or abroad, and as Andy off Little Britain 'I want that one.' That said, get what you're saying- we need a top class scouting network. Atletico a strong example, Brentford one closer to home-  Italian clubs are a good place to look for this, plenty re-invest wisely- because they have limited cash so have to make each pound count.

In a sense risking short-term future, but actually such is wage inflation with young players in the UK, not wholly convinced that a lot of those Wolves players (from Porto etc) were on such big wages when signed. Very shrewd (if ethically debatable) of Wolves IMO and of course it would have brought about losses, but not by as much as people may think.

[downendcity]

9 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Maggie out 

If Major Isewater is SL's forum name then Mrs L is in real trouble.

 

[RobintheRed Red]

On 19/08/2018 at 09:27, cidered abroad said:

I understand most of the reasons for the summer sale of Flint, Reid, Bryan, Magnússon, Djuric, Engvall. Have I missed anyone? 

But, IMO, the most stupid bit of business was to let Zak Vyner go on loan to Rotherham. We're short of defenders through injury yet he's not able to help us. Crazy decision. 

Plus allowing Duric to move with no replacement

[hoxton casual]

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Actually think a lot of PL sides can be quite lazy in scouting because they are so cash rich. Easy when you have a lot of cash to look at player here or abroad, and as Andy off Little Britain 'I want that one.' That said, get what you're saying- we need a top class scouting network. Atletico a strong example, Brentford one closer to home-  Italian clubs are a good place to look for this, plenty re-invest wisely- because they have limited cash so have to make each pound count.

In a sense risking short-term future, but actually such is wage inflation with young players in the UK, not wholly convinced that a lot of those Wolves players (from Porto etc) were on such big wages when signed. Very shrewd (if ethically debatable) of Wolves IMO and of course it would have brought about losses, but not by as much as people may think.

I think our scouting operation has improved, as has our analytics capability, but we still do not seem to pick up the quality bargains Brentford and Preston do now and that Burnley and Bournemouth did to get them in the Prem. The drawbridge is coming up quickly behind these Prem teams as our prime asset is being devalued.

Our prime asset is that AG sits in a one hour travel zone of a million people in quite a wealthy part of the country. That is what SL has always seen as a fan and a businessman mixing heart and head. With the new Premier budgets tiny towns in poorer parts of the UK can make profits without a single person in the ground. Even 5 years ago Burnley, Hudds and Bournemouth would have been killed by these economics but now even having  a massive stadium like Old Trafford does not guarantee you have more financial fire-power than many other teams.

We need an amazing manager who just knows how to get promoted, with a canny transfer dealing set up that really gives us the ability to fight against these new commercial odds. That manager does not have to be a Warnock. I point to Fulham who were "coached" to promotion by playing great football. It took a while to get there and they were prepared to splash the cash on Mitrovic to get them over the line, but there are many examples of how we can do it. The question is do we have any of these plans in place. LJ obviously feels we dont and that is worrrying.

[hoxton casual]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

Who ultimately report back to our owner who obviously thinks they're good enough.

I wonder what role Jon Lansdown has in all this?

 

[Rob k]

Another example of how this division is set up against us 

 Middlesboro have just signed Yannick Bolasie on a season long loan, he’s on 80k a week. 

[havanatopia]

8 hours ago, screech said:

He shouldn't be given another penny.

He has squad players that he can use to fit those positions but doesn't use them. Sorry, but he needs to start being a head coach and get the best out of his squad. Every other team in our position manages it with injuries.

He had a left back on the bench Saturday he has brought in on loan but chose not to play him. Lloyd Kelly is a good centre back as proven who played alongside his new signing. His new signings contributed to the comedy first goal. 

If you want to prove to people you are a competent young coach who has ambitions of working at a higher level, stop bleating on about injuries and needing more players to fill a gap, most clubs in our position in this league don't have a billionaire owner and they certainly haven't been given the funds he has.

The Championship is a tough league and it's time to show the fans and the clubs owner he has the tactical know how and coaching ability to see out a mini injury crisis without going to the press with a shrug of the shoulders and a begging bowl.

I do not believe LJ has sufficient talent to continue without plugging the gaps.

6 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Another example of how this division is set up against us 

 Middlesboro have just signed Yannick Bolasie on a season long loan, he’s on 80k a week. 

I would be very surprised if they are paying all of that.

[Major Isewater]

3 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Another example of how this division is set up against us 

 Middlesboro have just signed Yannick Bolasie on a season long loan, he’s on 80k a week. 

Another slips through our fingers.

As we can't compete financially surely we need better coaching to make up the difference.

What a player earns or is bought for is not always an indication of his value or talent.

Any one here be happy with Bolasie on board on even half that ? 

 

[Kid in the Riot]

8 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Another example of how this division is set up against us 

 Middlesboro have just signed Yannick Bolasie on a season long loan, he’s on 80k a week. 

He used to play for us in this division tbf!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Another example of how this division is set up against us 

 Middlesboro have just signed Yannick Bolasie on a season long loan, he’s on 80k a week. 

Year 2 of parachute payments- last year though.

FFP allowable losses over 3 years because they were PL in 16/17 and this year is year 3 in rolling losses, hence total allowable losses £61m.

Factor in the fact they made a profit in PL which pushes up the allowable losses (£6.9m or £11.5m depending on the figures), then combine the fairly big sales this summer and it's affordable for a loan at least.

[Rob k]

9 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

He used to play for us in this division tbf!!

He’s a decent player, we are just in a different league trying to compete with these ex PL sides, it’s getting harder and harder to remain competitive I think. 

[RUSSEL85]

5 hours ago, hoxton casual said:

I give you Brentford FC. They have smaller budgets than us and attract far more talent. Something is wrong in the scouting/negotiating part of the recruitment system. We cannot rely on an Level 2 Academy to get us where we want to get to. We need to be canny in the market. Do players not want to come here because they don't believe in LJ, and the overall set up? In the dark days of Bristol Rugby pre-Pat Lam, any talented player would not touch Bristol with a barge pole because of Robinson.

Lets hope we can show some real clever moves with loans in the next few weeks but the experience of Kent/Leko not being played may count against us. Not playing Da Silva until last 20 minutes of game 4 does not also give a great view to Premiership clubs that their loans will play regularly.

Spot on, they play how I wish we would play. Not just Brentford, but Preston, another shrewd team who have bought well and got a solid championship squad, wouldnt be surprised to see them knocking on the door of top 6 come May.

[INCRED]

So when will our special relationship with Man City become reality. Massive pool of talent, surely LJ & MA can call in a favour or two after we let them beat us in the semi final 

[spudski]

5 hours ago, hoxton casual said:

I give you Brentford FC. They have smaller budgets than us and attract far more talent. Something is wrong in the scouting/negotiating part of the recruitment system. We cannot rely on an Level 2 Academy to get us where we want to get to. We need to be canny in the market. Do players not want to come here because they don't believe in LJ, and the overall set up? In the dark days of Bristol Rugby pre-Pat Lam, any talented player would not touch Bristol with a barge pole because of Robinson.

Lets hope we can show some real clever moves with loans in the next few weeks but the experience of Kent/Leko not being played may count against us. Not playing Da Silva until last 20 minutes of game 4 does not also give a great view to Premiership clubs that their loans will play regularly.

Their system of running is completely different to ours...from analytics, scouting, Academy, running a B team, International Club parenting etc.

Whilst I admire how they work and how they play...they have finished mid table for the last three seasons.

If they were play off's each season I'd get it, but they are a mid table side or there about's like us.

They won't go up or go down. However I'd love them to go up as I really do admire how they have gone about working differently as a club.

I think our system and their's will make sure of both teams being able to compete against the big boys and sustain Championship status.

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, INCRED said:

So when will our special relationship with Man City become reality. Massive pool of talent, surely LJ & MA can call in a favour or two after we let them beat us in the semi final 

Probably not playing Kent or Leko much- particularly Kent however- didn't help...

Dasilva being on the bench will have been noted too- though not too much as he's only just joined.

[Kid in the Riot]

34 minutes ago, Rob k said:

He’s a decent player, we are just in a different league trying to compete with these ex PL sides, it’s getting harder and harder to remain competitive I think. 

That's the rhetoric coming out of the club mate, all the while it's boom time for our off-field revenue and crowds have never been higher (they'll be top 10 in the Championship again this year). Steve Lansdown continues to make more money each month than most of us will in our lifetimes and clubs I would consider 'smaller' than us continue to find a way to get promoted from this division. I still think if he really wanted to 'go for it' he could, whether that would involve breaking the rules or not - he could afford it. Entirely up to him of course. But other clubs have found ways to do it on a budget and Lansdown has said himself that our budget is not small - I suspect around midtable. 

[chinapig]

46 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Year 2 of parachute payments- last year though.

FFP allowable losses over 3 years because they were PL in 16/17 and this year is year 3 in rolling losses, hence total allowable losses £61m.

Factor in the fact they made a profit in PL which pushes up the allowable losses (£6.9m or £11.5m depending on the figures), then combine the fairly big sales this summer and it's affordable for a loan at least.

It seems in fact that Steve Gibson is playing by the rules. Good for him.

Hence Pulis moaning last week that he hadn't had enough to spend.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

It seems in fact that Steve Gibson is playing by the rules. Good for him.

Hence Pulis moaning last week that he hadn't had enough to spend.

Ha yeah, Pulis is never happy is he...however yes Middlesborough usually tend to play by FFP rules.

@Kid in the Riot Currently 12th in average attendance so midtable I think in that regard. Reckon our total revenues is midtable to lower mid table too.

Thing is, the good thing about these rules means that we should be in a position to 'go for it' in 2019/20 or 2020/21. Within reason of course.

[hoxton casual]

24 minutes ago, spudski said:

Their system of running is completely different to ours...from analytics, scouting, Academy, running a B team, International Club parenting etc.

Whilst I admire how they work and how they play...they have finished mid table for the last three seasons.

If they were play off's each season I'd get it, but they are a mid table side or there about's like us.

They won't go up or go down. However I'd love them to go up as I really do admire how they have gone about working differently as a club.

I think our system and their's will make sure of both teams being able to compete against the big boys and sustain Championship status.

Havent they sold more players than us, which always restricts their push for promotion?

[krxs97]

A lot people in this thread saying there's no point in sacking Johnson as the board will only appoint another yes-man. Does that mean they want change from the very top?

Personally, I think it's about time Ashton got the boot. I get the impression he has more of a say, in terms of transfers, than LJ has and recruitment has been poor since his arrival. Plus the fact he was hated at Watford for similar reasons.

[chinapig]

5 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

That's the rhetoric coming out of the club mate, all the while it's boom time for our off-field revenue and crowds have never been higher (they'll be top 10 in the Championship again this year). Steve Lansdown continues to make more money each month than most of us will in our lifetimes and clubs I would consider 'smaller' than us continue to find a way to get promoted from this division. I still think if he really wanted to 'go for it' he could, whether that would involve breaking the rules or not - he could afford it. Entirely up to him of course. But other clubs have found ways to do it on a budget and Lansdown has said himself that our budget is not small - I suspect around midtable. 

And plenty of smaller, similar size and bigger clubs haven't got promotion, so I'm never quite sure what this proves.

Surely most Championship clubs, and a few League One clubs (with a certain obvious exception)  could say the same thing? In which case why haven't they all been promoted?

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, hoxton casual said:

 Havent they sold more players than us, which always restricts their push for promotion?

I think we can take the Brentford model- and tweak it because we have a bigger income base- our attendances are 90% higher than theirs for a start.

Actually last season, I looked and it's double based on that! It's a lot higher anyway.

If it's purely sell any good player we get, then I'm not a fan of the model. If it's like a 'Brentford Plus' then it could be interesting in the coming years.

Depends if we want total self-sufficiency or sell to keep losses within £13m or less, while still accepting we will make losses.

[chinapig]

6 minutes ago, krxs97 said:

A lot people in this thread saying there's no point in sacking Johnson as the board will only appoint another yes-man. Does that mean they want change from the very top?

Personally, I think it's about time Ashton got the boot. I get the impression he has more of a say, in terms of transfers, than LJ has and recruitment has been poor since his arrival. Plus the fact he was hated at Watford for similar reasons.

1. The model we operate would usually include a DoF.

2. We don't have one.

3. LJ reports to the Chief Executive.

4. I wonder what that tells us about who is the de facto DoF?