Taylor Moore

[ashton_fan]

2 minutes ago, BCFC_Dan said:

He's the same age as Zak Vyner and nobody seems to worry about him being a flop.

I don't know what the exact fee paid for him was but it was money paid out for potential and if he's got what they presumably saw in him then it should be a small amount compared to the value he'll have in future.

On the other hand, the lower leagues are full of "former U20 international"s who never quite made it. He'll get the opportunity at City but it's up to him to take it.

Zak's OK, he's playing in the Championship this season. With TM's background of being in the England set-up he should be doing better than he is, I'm sure when he was purchased LJ thought he'd have been a first team regular by now. I haven't given up on him yet and hope he does well but he could be another Marvin Brown.

[Phileas Fogg]

3 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

Zak's OK, he's playing in the Championship this season. With TM's background of being in the England set-up he should be doing better than he is,

Based on what? That's very subjective. You need to remember that centre half is the position that requires the most physicality and 'man strength' on the pitch. Vyner and Kelly are both filling out whereas Moore hasn't really yet.

The fact that England noticed him means he's got something about him - definitely needs more time. 

If he was genuinely a flop - he'd be gone. We weren't afraid to ship Engvall and Djuric fairly quickly - both similar or greater outlay than Moore.

3 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

I'm sure when he was purchased LJ thought he'd have been a first team regular by now. I haven't given up on him yet and hope he does well but he could be another Marvin Brown.

How do you know that?

[ashton_fan]

6 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Based on what? That's very subjective. You need to remember that centre half is the position that requires the most physicality and 'man strength' on the pitch. Vyner and Kelly are both filling out whereas Moore hasn't really yet.

The fact that England noticed him means he's got something about him - definitely needs more time. 

If he was genuinely a flop - he'd be gone. We weren't afraid to ship Engvall and Djuric fairly quickly - both similar or greater outlay than Moore.

How do you know that?

He's in the final (3rd) year of his contract so I'm sure LJ would have expected more by now, or what was the use of signing him for over a million?

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, ashton_fan said:

He's in the final (3rd) year of his contract so I'm sure LJ would have expected more by now, or what was the use of signing him for over a million?

He was signed for his potential.

I think the concept of this threw a few of our fans at the time because it was so new, we'd never really spent 7 figures on a player who wasn't an immediate first team player.

Football finances and the 'value' of a player has changed rapidly over the last 3 years or so and I think it took our supporters by surprise. 

In 2008, Taylor Moore probably would've been about 250k - not anymore.

He's in his final year, but with an extension option so the final year thing is moot. 

LJ may or may not have expected more, who knows - but LJ and the coaching team would know that different players develop at different rates. If Moore was a genuine duffer, he'd be gone by now - as per Engvall.

 

[Monkeh]

4 minutes ago, ziderheadarmy said:

You mean Vyner whose playing week in week out at Rotherham in the championship??

he wasn't last season when loaned out to plymouth

[spudski]

I think Moore looks better as a RB than CB. That's where I see his future at the Club.

If everyone plays to their potential and keeps improving, and in Kelly's case we keep hold of him, as he imo, is by far our best asset, then I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a back 4 of ..... Moore, Vyner, Kelly, Pring...in the not so distant future. All have great potential imo. Some developing slower than others.

[Nogbad the Bad]

18 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

People were saying very similar things about Reid at 24. Reid’s case should be enough evidence to allow young players to develop at their own pace.

Reid was an exception to the rule and was going nowhere until a fundamental positional change.

[Nogbad the Bad]

20 hours ago, Monkeh said:

LJ thinks very highly of him as do the rest of the coaching staff, they also think he isn't ready for the championship and will follow the Vyner path

If you know the coaching staff think 'very highly' of TM, how do they compare his potential to nail down a first team Championship place at AG with Aden Baldwin for instance?

[Monkeh]

6 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

If you know the coaching staff think 'very highly' of TM, how do they compare his potential to nail down a first team Championship place at AG with Aden Baldwin for instance?

Perfectly honest with you, I don't I'd say Moore is ahead of Baldwin however as he's played more first team football at a decent level,

Baldwin is on the bench at cheltenham at the moment so isn't get a run out,

Not to say one is better then they other,  or one will make it or not as I can't predict the future, it really depends on how hard both players work off the field 

[Nogbad the Bad]

1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

Perfectly honest with you, I don't I'd say Moore is ahead of Baldwin however as he's played more first team football at a decent level,

Baldwin is on the bench at cheltenham at the moment so isn't get a run out,

Not to say one is better then they other,  or one will make it or not as I can't predict the future, it really depends on how hard both players work off the field 

I see, so the coaches have given you their high opinion of TM but haven't even mentioned a player of the same age who will be battling him all the way for that first team place?

[Monkeh]

8 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I see, so the coaches have given you their high opinion of TM but haven't even mentioned a player of the same age who will be battling him all the way for that first team place?

maybe because I never asked about Baldwin

[Nogbad the Bad]

1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

maybe because I never asked about Baldwin

How could they evaluate his first team potential without taking into account the potential of his immediate rivals?

Let alone the new CB we seem to sign every season.

Sounds odd to me.

[cidered abroad]

And if we are discussing young City central defenders.

Baldwin is well thought of at City and has been included in first team training for some time now, I believe.

Current under 23 centre half is Tom Harrison who is a big lad and to me, also looks a good prospect.

Where is Tin Plavotic? Went to Barnet on loan last January, think he was injured early on and no sign of him this season. Still injured or no longer with us?

[Phileas Fogg]

29 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Reid was an exception to the rule and was going nowhere until a fundamental positional change.

True, but it is a great example of why you shouldn't write young players off too early. I think many, myself included, would've happily sold Reid last summer.

Sometimes it takes a positional change like in this instance, sometimes a growth spurt or just a change in mentality and maturity - there's loads of reasons why it takes some young players younger than others.

[Lrrr]

21 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

And if we are discussing young City central defenders.

Baldwin is well thought of at City and has been included in first team training for some time now, I believe.

Current under 23 centre half is Tom Harrison who is a big lad and to me, also looks a good prospect.

Where is Tin Plavotic? Went to Barnet on loan last January, think he was injured early on and no sign of him this season. Still injured or no longer with us?

Plavotic played LB in our 23's quite often last season I believe. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

True, but it is a great example of why you shouldn't write young players off too early. I think many, myself included, would've happily sold Reid last summer.

Sometimes it takes a positional change like in this instance, sometimes a growth spurt or just a change in mentality and maturity - there's loads of reasons why it takes some young players younger than others.

I agree to an extent, but you cannot hold on to non progressing players for ever, and, as I said, Reid is very much the exception.

That level of patience is unlikely to be repeated imo.

Mostly it is players like James Wilson who we give numerous new contracts to for years because of their potential and then eventually release for a sporadic career in the lower divisions.

As @cidered abroad says above we have younger players coming through in the same position as TM and space must be made in the squad for them.

I suspect the coaching staff at AG think TM is a tremendously nice lad and a reasonable footballer, but I personally doubt they rate him highly as a CB at this level.

I agree with the poster who said they would have expected more from him by now. You can beef a player up, but you cannot instill aggression or aerial ability if it is naturally lacking and I suspect his loan spell has only confirmed he has stagnated in these areas.

It may well be that, like BR, City can find TM a new position where he can thrive. Perhaps in midfield - he runs with the ball well, he can tackle, reasonable passer of the ball, good stamina, but he's lacking in the qualities needed for a CB at this level imo.

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I think Moore looks better as a RB than CB. That's where I see his future at the Club.

If everyone plays to their potential and keeps improving, and in Kelly's case we keep hold of him, as he imo, is by far our best asset, then I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a back 4 of ..... Moore, Vyner, Kelly, Pring...in the not so distant future. All have great potential imo. Some developing slower than others.

I agree and wouldn't be surprised either. It would scare me to death though. For a start, neither centre half is a natural, no-nonsense first ball winner who lives and breathes for defending his goal at all costs come what may. Secondly, I'd prefer at least one old head in my back four, not 4 young tyros.

All in all, that back four strikes me as the type an idealistic coach would put together, one who puts the emphasis too much on playing pure football at the expense of some of the more rudimentary but nevertheless essential dark arts of defending. For me, picking that back four would be driven by ideology and a desire to justify the 5 Pillars philosophy at the expense of what it takes - in reality - to win football matches in the Championship.

It's therefore a back four Lee Johnson may well consider picking. Thank god, then, that it's unlikely he will be able to because - at his current rate of progress - Lloyd Kelly will have departed Ashton Gate for bigger and better things long before the other 3 are ready to play Championship football together.    

[Merrick's Marvels]

12 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I agree to an extent, but you cannot hold on to non progressing players for ever, and, as I said, Reid is very much the exception.

That level of patience is unlikely to be repeated imo.

Mostly it is players like James Wilson who we give numerous new contracts to for years because of their potential and then eventually release for a sporadic career in the lower divisions.

 

Joe Morrell is the next James Wilson???

[Nogbad the Bad]

7 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Joe Morrell is the next James Wilson???

Who knows but he'd need a couple of new contracts first.

Morrell's 21, Wilson was 25 when City eventually released him iirc.

[Merrick's Marvels]

4 hours ago, Monkeh said:

what like last season then they took the un-experianced Vyner? 

Well done.

Last season Vyner was loaned out in the January when Plymouth were performing as a solid mid table team.

If Moore was loaned to them now he'd be joining a struggling team rock bottom of the division, one just thrashed 5-1 at home, who've lost their first choice keeper from last season, lost both their first choice centre halves from last season, their first choice Right back from last season. They now have a completely new defence made up of free signings, 2 of whom have played virtually no league football ever, and a loanee goalkeeper who's only played a dozen games in L2. No wonder they're all over the shop.

The Plymouth of last season and this season are completely different and the comparison you invite isn't like for like, it's so the opposite of like for like that's it's nonsensical. Last season Vyner joined a steady ship, Moore would be joining one that's already sinking fast.

But like I say - well done. You keep posting trigger happy sh*te if it makes you happy.

[Phileas Fogg]

33 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I agree to an extent, but you cannot hold on to non progressing players for ever, and, as I said, Reid is very much the exception.

That level of patience is unlikely to be repeated imo.

Mostly it is players like James Wilson who we give numerous new contracts to for years because of their potential and then eventually release for a sporadic career in the lower divisions.

As @cidered abroad says above we have younger players coming through in the same position as TM and space must be made in the squad for them.

I suspect the coaching staff at AG think TM is a tremendously nice lad and a reasonable footballer, but I personally doubt they rate him highly as a CB at this level.

I agree with the poster who said they would have expected more from him by now. You can beef a player up, but you cannot instill aggression or aerial ability if it is naturally lacking and I suspect his loan spell has only confirmed he has stagnated in these areas.

It may well be that, like BR, City can find TM a new position where he can thrive. Perhaps in midfield - he runs with the ball well, he can tackle, reasonable passer of the ball, good stamina, but he's lacking in the qualities needed for a CB at this level imo.

A fair assessment. I think the thing with Reid is that he clearly had something - otherwise he'd have been gone years ago.

GJ, Coppell, Millen, McInnes, SO'D, Cotterill, Pemberton* and now LJ have all had him under their management and none have got rid of him. They all saw something in him, I remember SO'D (who in my opinion may have had the best eye for spotting raw talent) giving him a fair amount of game time.

He wouldn't have been a high earner so maybe that was another factor.. but we've seen multiple promising young players let go when Reid wasn't.

As for Moore, I can't comment too much on his ability because I haven't had the opportunity to see him much. You might well be right about that, and comments from Cheltenham fans reflected that aggression and aerial ability may have been weaknesses.

[Monkeh]

22 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Well done.

Last season Vyner was loaned out in the January when Plymouth were performing as a solid mid table team.

If Moore was loaned to them now he'd be joining a struggling team rock bottom of the division, one just thrashed 5-1 at home, who've lost their first choice keeper from last season, lost both their first choice centre halves from last season, their first choice Right back from last season. They now have a completely new defence made up of free signings, 2 of whom have played virtually no league football ever, and a loanee goalkeeper who's only played a dozen games in L2. No wonder they're all over the shop.

The Plymouth of last season and this season are completely different and the comparison you invite isn't like for like, it's so the opposite of like for like that's it's nonsensical. Last season Vyner joined a steady ship, Moore would be joining one that's already sinking fast.

But like I say - well done. You keep posting trigger happy sh*te if it makes you happy.

but you don't know how he would perform at Plymouth as you can't predict the future, and Vyner is a fair comparison and not trigger happy bullshit at all, prior to joining plymouth his only experiance was 5 games with us in the championship and 16 games at Accrington Stanley who were struggling in league two near the bottom 4 when he joined,

Moore has played 9 games in the french leagues 5 in the championship and spent time on loan at struggling bury and then a season on loan at struggling Chelteham and did well at both,

Its a fair comparison  

[Merrick's Marvels]

12 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

but you don't know how he would perform at Plymouth as you can't predict the future, and Vyner is a fair comparison and not trigger happy bullshit at all, prior to joining plymouth his only experiance was 5 games with us in the championship and 16 games at Accrington Stanley who were struggling in league two near the bottom 4 when he joined,

Moore has played 9 games in the french leagues 5 in the championship and spent time on loan at struggling bury and then a season on loan at struggling Chelteham and did well at both,

Its a fair comparison  

I'm making a comparison between the Plymouth Argyle of 2017/18 and the Plymouth Argyle of 2018/19.

So I've no idea why you're comparing Zak Vyner against Taylor Moore as it's missing my point completely.

[downendcity]

2 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

A fair assessment. I think the thing with Reid is that he clearly had something - otherwise he'd have been gone years ago.

GJ, Coppell, Millen, McInnes, SO'D, Cotterill, Pemberton* and now LJ have all had him under their management and none have got rid of him. They all saw something in him, I remember SO'D (who in my opinion may have had the best eye for spotting raw talent) giving him a fair amount of game time.

He wouldn't have been a high earner so maybe that was another factor.. but we've seen multiple promising young players let go when Reid wasn't.

As for Moore, I can't comment too much on his ability because I haven't had the opportunity to see him much. You might well be right about that, and comments from Cheltenham fans reflected that aggression and aerial ability may have been weaknesses.

I can remember another Moore, also an England international and captain, who you would not have described describe as an aggressive player - especially when compared to the many other very hard defenders of that era. Neither was he particularly strong in the air. He didn't too badly despite that!

What he did have was a great footballing brain, the ability to read a game and great positional sense, so he could often intercept without needing  a hard tackle.

Obviously you would want every defender in the team to have every attribute - aggression, tough tackling, good in the air, comfortable with the ball at their feet, able to ping a long pass and able to chip in with goals at the other end. However, at our level that is unrealistic, so what we can expect is for the back 4 ( assuming that's how we set up) to form a solid unit because of each one of the four's individual strengths working together.

On that basis, perhaps as Taylor-Moore develops he will slot in alongside , for example Kelly, who might provide the aggression and aerial ability he lacks, but T-M might provide better positional awareness and organisational ability ( although Kelly seems to be doing pretty well as it stands).

Only a few weeks ago many were fretting that we would not cope with losing 2 of our key defenders. With a new boy, a right back playing out of position and a 19 year old we have just managed a couple of clean sheets and could have a selection headache when Wright and Baker return. Early days I know, and much can change quickly, but perhaps we should look more at the overall strength of the defence as a unit, rather than the individuals within it.

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, downendcity said:

I can remember another Moore, also an England international and captain, who you would not have described describe as an aggressive player - especially when compared to the many other very hard defenders of that era. Neither was he particularly strong in the air. He didn't too badly despite that!

What he did have was a great footballing brain, the ability to read a game and great positional sense, so he could often intercept without needing  a hard tackle.

Obviously you would want every defender in the team to have every attribute - aggression, tough tackling, good in the air, comfortable with the ball at their feet, able to ping a long pass and able to chip in with goals at the other end. However, at our level that is unrealistic, so what we can expect is for the back 4 ( assuming that's how we set up) to form a solid unit because of each one of the four's individual strengths working together.

On that basis, perhaps as Taylor-Moore develops he will slot in alongside , for example Kelly, who might provide the aggression and aerial ability he lacks, but T-M might provide better positional awareness and organisational ability ( although Kelly seems to be doing pretty well as it stands).

 

Kelly presents as laid back rather than aggressive and, even though he's tall, hardly strikes me as the first ball winner but rather the one who's given it to play out from the back. In all respects he strikes me as a defender who will rely on positional awareness and skill rather than aggression and brute force. Which is why a combination of him and Taylor Moore is too much of the same thing for my liking and Vyner is more of the same. 

[Port Said Red]

5 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Kelly presents as laid back rather than aggressive and, even though he's tall, hardly strikes me as the first ball winner but rather the one who's given it to play out from the back. In all respects he strikes me as a defender who will rely on positional awareness and skill rather than aggression and brute force. Which is why a combination of him and Taylor Moore is too much of the same thing for my liking and Vyner is more of the same. 

Watching the QPR game I was really impressed by how physical he was when necessary, and how he stood up for himself in a couple of face to face situations.  Ironically, considering your username, Merrick and Collier would hardly have been considered an aggressive combination by the standards of the 70's, but they did ok. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

Watching the QPR game I was really impressed by how physical he was when necessary, and how he stood up for himself in a couple of face to face situations.  Ironically, considering your username, Merrick and Collier would hardly have been considered an aggressive combination by the standards of the 70's, but they did ok. 

Yes, Kelly is very much in the Merrick mould isn't he?

Unfortunately I'm finding it hard to shake off the memory of the lesson Leon Clarke taught him last season. There are undoubted signs of improvement since then - not least in his performance against Assombolonga - but I still struggle to see Kelly as the primary ball winner in a back four for the reasons stated above.

Even Pep at Man City, the ultimate tippy tap purist, employs the likes of Kompany and Otamendi to provide an aggressive physical edge. Likewise Puyol and Mascherano when at Barca.  I would personally pick a similar type of player alongside Kelly if the latter eventually settles down as a cenrte half. And I don't see Vyner or Taylor Moore being that type of partner either.

[Davefevs]

6 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I agree to an extent, but you cannot hold on to non progressing players for ever, and, as I said, Reid is very much the exception.

That level of patience is unlikely to be repeated imo.

Mostly it is players like James Wilson who we give numerous new contracts to for years because of their potential and then eventually release for a sporadic career in the lower divisions.

As @cidered abroad says above we have younger players coming through in the same position as TM and space must be made in the squad for them.

I suspect the coaching staff at AG think TM is a tremendously nice lad and a reasonable footballer, but I personally doubt they rate him highly as a CB at this level.

I agree with the poster who said they would have expected more from him by now. You can beef a player up, but you cannot instill aggression or aerial ability if it is naturally lacking and I suspect his loan spell has only confirmed he has stagnated in these areas.

It may well be that, like BR, City can find TM a new position where he can thrive. Perhaps in midfield - he runs with the ball well, he can tackle, reasonable passer of the ball, good stamina, but he's lacking in the qualities needed for a CB at this level imo.

It is my understanding (like @Monkeh‘s) that the coaching staff do rate TM, and acknowledge that although he was fairly average for Cheltenham last season:

1. the style of football played by Ctfc wasn’t helpful
2. the style of football played in Lg2 wasn’t helpful
3. he would be more suited to the way football is played in the Champ, where his football intelligence will help

However at this point in time, he needs to develop physically to allow it to compliment his footballing brain.

They think a Lg1 loan would be great, but if a Champ club came in (like RUFC for Vyner) that would be perfect.  

My additions to this is that because he didn’t excel at CTFC he hasn’t got the profile like Vyner to get a Champ move, and even Lg1 sides are reticent.  He’s a bit in no-man’s land.

In hindsight I wonder whether City wish he hadn’t gone to CTFC?

[Son of Fred]

49 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Yes, Kelly is very much in the Merrick mould isn't he?

Unfortunately I'm finding it hard to shake off the memory of the lesson Leon Clarke taught him last season. There are undoubted signs of improvement since then - not least in his performance against Assombolonga - but I still struggle to see Kelly as the primary ball winner in a back four for the reasons stated above.

Even Pep at Man City, the ultimate tippy tap purist, employs the likes of Kompany and Otamendi to provide an aggressive physical edge. Likewise Puyol and Mascherano when at Barca.  I would personally pick a similar type of player alongside Kelly if the latter eventually settles down as a cenrte half. And I don't see Vyner or Taylor Moore being that type of partner either.

I see Taylor's future more as a right back/wing back...

[JoeAman08]

4 hours ago, Robert the bruce said:

I see Taylor's future more as a right back/wing back...

I don’t. I have never seen him play well there and probably where I have seen him play most. He is more CB than Vyner. He doesn’t have the agility to play the position imo. Even in u23s he struggled against any half quick winger.