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Antman

Taylor Moore

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i'm thinking this is his last season in contract?

He's going on loan according to LJ, if so we've paid £1.5M (?) and then let him out on loan for the entirety of that period.

Given that we've got loan cover for defence in it suggests LJ doesn't think enough of him.

maybe the lad didn't step up - but it seems he was part of that batch of players who have now largely been shipped out again. Magnussen, Duric, etc.

He was an England U20 player , but seems to have ground to a halt with us.

 

does anyone know what his contract is?

 

 

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1 minute ago, Antman said:

i'm thinking this is his last season in contract?

He's going on loan according to LJ, if so we've paid £1.5M (?) and then let him out on loan for the entirety of that period.

Given that we've got loan cover for defence in it suggests LJ doesn't think enough of him.

maybe the lad didn't step up - but it seems he was part of that batch of players who have now largely been shipped out again. Magnussen, Duric, etc.

He was an England U20 player , but seems to have ground to a halt with us.

 

does anyone know what his contract is?

I don't know what his contract situation but I think he would have had game time if he hadn't got injured at the end of pre-season. If he does go on loan, don't be surprised if he signs a contract first like some of the other lads, but I have a feeling he will be staying around the squad. 

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1 hour ago, Antman said:

i'm thinking this is his last season in contract?

He's going on loan according to LJ, if so we've paid £1.5M (?) and then let him out on loan for the entirety of that period.

Given that we've got loan cover for defence in it suggests LJ doesn't think enough of him.

maybe the lad didn't step up - but it seems he was part of that batch of players who have now largely been shipped out again. Magnussen, Duric, etc.

He was an England U20 player , but seems to have ground to a halt with us.

 

does anyone know what his contract is?

 

 

LJ thinks very highly of him as do the rest of the coaching staff, they also think he isn't ready for the championship and will follow the Vyner path

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2 hours ago, Antman said:

i'm thinking this is his last season in contract?

He's going on loan according to LJ, if so we've paid £1.5M (?) and then let him out on loan for the entirety of that period.

Given that we've got loan cover for defence in it suggests LJ doesn't think enough of him.

maybe the lad didn't step up - but it seems he was part of that batch of players who have now largely been shipped out again. Magnussen, Duric, etc.

He was an England U20 player , but seems to have ground to a halt with us.

 

does anyone know what his contract is?

 

 

He is still very young. Good signing and one for the future.  Players dont have to deliver immediately to be a success.

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54 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

LJ thinks very highly of him as do the rest of the coaching staff, they also think he isn't ready for the championship and will follow the Vyner path

Heard the same, very much in the mould of Webster. Had some intensive conditioning over the summer and 121 coaching sessions. He would have been in the first team squad had he not picked up an injury but with added cover less likely. Pretty sure the club will extend his contract if he progresses as they hope and a loan to L1 looks best move for him

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Argyle are desperate for a centre half if you read their forum. Would seem a good move for him.

TM was once subject of a  €10m bid from Lyon when at Lens. Clearly stagnated but has something about him.

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45 minutes ago, RedDave said:

He is still very young. Good signing and one for the future.  Players dont have to deliver immediately to be a success.

He's 21, 2 years older than Lloyd Kelly and a year younger than Josh Brownhill. I get the impression he was OK at Cheltenham but not outstanding which means he's currently L2 level. Can't see him breaking into the side unless we've got loads of injuries.

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31 minutes ago, ollywhyte said:

TM was once subject of a  €10m bid from Lyon when at Lens. Clearly stagnated but has something about him.

That can't be true?

He's only 21 now. Lyon have only signed 14 players over 10 million in the last 20 years and they were all internationals.

Are you his agent?

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15 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

He's 21, 2 years older than Lloyd Kelly and a year younger than Josh Brownhill. I get the impression he was OK at Cheltenham but not outstanding which means he's currently L2 level. Can't see him breaking into the side unless we've got loads of injuries.

Might not break into the side this season.  Hopefully will do next season.

You need to give young players time to develop.  Plenty of examples of players blossoming at 22/23/24 and not 19/20/21.  Also centre backs develop a bit later generally.

 

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56 minutes ago, ollywhyte said:

Argyle are desperate for a centre half if you read their forum. Would seem a good move for him.

TM was once subject of a  €10m bid from Lyon when at Lens. Clearly stagnated but has something about him.

Argyle will be relegated if they take him - they're in trouble already and need experience and grit to sort themselves out. Moore lacks both at the moment.

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6 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Argyle will be relegated if they take him - they're in trouble already and need experience and grit to sort themselves out. Moore lacks both at the moment.

Rovers an ideal loan move then. 😆

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31 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

He's 21, 2 years older than Lloyd Kelly and a year younger than Josh Brownhill. I get the impression he was OK at Cheltenham but not outstanding which means he's currently L2 level. Can't see him breaking into the side unless we've got loads of injuries.

People were saying very similar things about Reid at 24. Reid’s case should be enough evidence to allow young players to develop at their own pace.

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16 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

He's 21, 2 years older than Lloyd Kelly and a year younger than Josh Brownhill. I get the impression he was OK at Cheltenham but not outstanding which means he's currently L2 level. Can't see him breaking into the side unless we've got loads of injuries.

It is way too simplistic to summarise him that way. First off, Lloyd Kelly is an outlier. There aren’t many 19-20 year olds ready to star in the championship. He is the exception to the rule.

Secondly, Brownhill needed close to 100 league appearances before he started contributing regularly. Also, he was brought up playing football in this country so not as big an adjustment. 

Thirdly, Moore was played out of position at rb in a not so great Cheltenham side. I did question the loan at the time as he seemed to have impressed in L1 the previous season. That said, his biggest problem is his physicality and aggression or lack of it. L2 will have helped him and he did look a bit more physically ready in preseason.

I am quite sure he is rated by the staff. I am sure we will see him sign a new 3+1 deal if he does go on loan. He is still very young for a CB and I can’t stress enough the difference of leagues where he grew up and where he is now. LJ commented on LK and how he anticipates him being a full time CB at around 24. Taylor Moore is similar. He still has time ahead of him and I know the price seemed steep but he was worth the money in potential. Give him more time. 

13 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Might not break into the side this season.  Hopefully will do next season.

You need to give young players time to develop.  Plenty of examples of players blossoming at 22/23/24 and not 19/20/21.  Also centre backs develop a bit later generally.

 

Exactly. Adam Webster is just 23 and approaching 150 senior appearances(just over 50 at champ level) and still looks physically lacking at times. Taylor is 2 years younger and learned his trade in a different environment. He needs time to learn how to use his body and gain more strength. We have some of the best CBs in the division U23 I’d say. Sometimes even I forget how young of a side we are compared to what we strive to be(playoff side. Look at the avg age of Boro, Villa, Derbt). 

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30 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

People were saying very similar things about Reid at 24. Reid’s case should be enough evidence to allow young players to develop at their own pace.

Quite right. 

Rooney was a top player at 17 ffs.........Vardy didn’t thrive until he was in his mid 20s. 

Every player develops at a unique rate - fans forget that.

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4 hours ago, Antman said:

i'm thinking this is his last season in contract?

He's going on loan according to LJ, if so we've paid £1.5M (?) and then let him out on loan for the entirety of that period.

Given that we've got loan cover for defence in it suggests LJ doesn't think enough of him.

maybe the lad didn't step up - but it seems he was part of that batch of players who have now largely been shipped out again. Magnussen, Duric, etc.

He was an England U20 player , but seems to have ground to a halt with us.

 

does anyone know what his contract is?

 

 

If LJ didn't think enough of him he'd have been sold or shipped into the 23's rather than sent out on loan.

2 hours ago, Londoner said:

All good in theory. But if he doesn't want to sign a contract he would prove to be another poor signing.

Any indication he doesn't want to sign a new contract or just a negative spin on something for the hell of it?

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20 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Quite right. 

Rooney was a top player at 17 ffs.........Vardy didn’t thrive until he was in his mid 20s. 

Every player develops at a unique rate - fans forget that.

It also seems that fewer players break through while they are teenagers than used to be the case - although it could just be my age that makes me think that!

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1 hour ago, hodge said:

 

Any indication he doesn't want to sign a new contract or just a negative spin on something for the hell of it?

Hmmm, it's Londoner posting, what do you think? Praying the lad will fail so he can have another stick to beat the club and management with probably.

Edited by Port Said Red
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4 hours ago, Monkeh said:

LJ thinks very highly of him as do the rest of the coaching staff, they also think he isn't ready for the championship and will follow the Vyner path

Where do they think he will end up playing CB or FB ? 

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1 hour ago, hodge said:

If LJ didn't think enough of him he'd have been sold or shipped into the 23's rather than sent out on loan.

Any indication he doesn't want to sign a new contract or just a negative spin on something for the hell of it?

Why would he? Doesn't play regular football farmed out on loan to the lower leagues. 

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8 minutes ago, Londoner said:

Why would he? Doesn't play regular football farmed out on loan to the lower leagues. 

If you're cynical then it's easier to get a new contact somewhere else if he signs again here as someone lower will take him, move down now and he could be stuck down there, so extends the career. 

Or he understands he was unlikely to break into the first team given the other options and looks to go the vyner route 

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Saw him 5 times last season at Cheltenham. Has still a long way to go on the physical side of his game, the area  LJ criticised him for when he played a few games for us. He needs L1 now, and hopefully he has followed the Bryan and Reid physical preparation (both changed substantially) to help make the step up. Also needs a more ruthless streak . Well. behind Vyner and Kelly in my view, so needs to make notable progress this season, which of course he can. Would keep working on his development as he looks like he has something and is still young, essentially he needs playing time. 

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56 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

If my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle

This might come as a shock EI, but there's something your family has asked me to tell you after all this time ...................................

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15 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Argyle will be relegated if they take him - they're in trouble already and need experience and grit to sort themselves out. Moore lacks both at the moment.

what like last season then they took the un-experianced Vyner? 

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16 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

He's 21, 2 years older than Lloyd Kelly and a year younger than Josh Brownhill. I get the impression he was OK at Cheltenham but not outstanding which means he's currently L2 level. Can't see him breaking into the side unless we've got loads of injuries.

He's the same age as Zak Vyner and nobody seems to worry about him being a flop.

I don't know what the exact fee paid for him was but it was money paid out for potential and if he's got what they presumably saw in him then it should be a small amount compared to the value he'll have in future.

On the other hand, the lower leagues are full of "former U20 international"s who never quite made it. He'll get the opportunity at City but it's up to him to take it.

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2 minutes ago, BCFC_Dan said:

He's the same age as Zak Vyner and nobody seems to worry about him being a flop.

I don't know what the exact fee paid for him was but it was money paid out for potential and if he's got what they presumably saw in him then it should be a small amount compared to the value he'll have in future.

On the other hand, the lower leagues are full of "former U20 international"s who never quite made it. He'll get the opportunity at City but it's up to him to take it.

Zak's OK, he's playing in the Championship this season. With TM's background of being in the England set-up he should be doing better than he is, I'm sure when he was purchased LJ thought he'd have been a first team regular by now. I haven't given up on him yet and hope he does well but he could be another Marvin Brown.

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3 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

Zak's OK, he's playing in the Championship this season. With TM's background of being in the England set-up he should be doing better than he is,

Based on what? That's very subjective. You need to remember that centre half is the position that requires the most physicality and 'man strength' on the pitch. Vyner and Kelly are both filling out whereas Moore hasn't really yet.

The fact that England noticed him means he's got something about him - definitely needs more time. 

If he was genuinely a flop - he'd be gone. We weren't afraid to ship Engvall and Djuric fairly quickly - both similar or greater outlay than Moore.

3 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

I'm sure when he was purchased LJ thought he'd have been a first team regular by now. I haven't given up on him yet and hope he does well but he could be another Marvin Brown.

How do you know that?

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6 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Based on what? That's very subjective. You need to remember that centre half is the position that requires the most physicality and 'man strength' on the pitch. Vyner and Kelly are both filling out whereas Moore hasn't really yet.

The fact that England noticed him means he's got something about him - definitely needs more time. 

If he was genuinely a flop - he'd be gone. We weren't afraid to ship Engvall and Djuric fairly quickly - both similar or greater outlay than Moore.

How do you know that?

He's in the final (3rd) year of his contract so I'm sure LJ would have expected more by now, or what was the use of signing him for over a million?

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1 minute ago, ashton_fan said:

He's in the final (3rd) year of his contract so I'm sure LJ would have expected more by now, or what was the use of signing him for over a million?

He was signed for his potential.

I think the concept of this threw a few of our fans at the time because it was so new, we'd never really spent 7 figures on a player who wasn't an immediate first team player.

Football finances and the 'value' of a player has changed rapidly over the last 3 years or so and I think it took our supporters by surprise. 

In 2008, Taylor Moore probably would've been about 250k - not anymore.

He's in his final year, but with an extension option so the final year thing is moot. 

LJ may or may not have expected more, who knows - but LJ and the coaching team would know that different players develop at different rates. If Moore was a genuine duffer, he'd be gone by now - as per Engvall.

 

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4 minutes ago, ziderheadarmy said:

You mean Vyner whose playing week in week out at Rotherham in the championship??

he wasn't last season when loaned out to plymouth

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I think Moore looks better as a RB than CB. That's where I see his future at the Club.

If everyone plays to their potential and keeps improving, and in Kelly's case we keep hold of him, as he imo, is by far our best asset, then I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a back 4 of ..... Moore, Vyner, Kelly, Pring...in the not so distant future. All have great potential imo. Some developing slower than others.

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18 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

People were saying very similar things about Reid at 24. Reid’s case should be enough evidence to allow young players to develop at their own pace.

Reid was an exception to the rule and was going nowhere until a fundamental positional change.

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20 hours ago, Monkeh said:

LJ thinks very highly of him as do the rest of the coaching staff, they also think he isn't ready for the championship and will follow the Vyner path

If you know the coaching staff think 'very highly' of TM, how do they compare his potential to nail down a first team Championship place at AG with Aden Baldwin for instance?

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6 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

If you know the coaching staff think 'very highly' of TM, how do they compare his potential to nail down a first team Championship place at AG with Aden Baldwin for instance?

Perfectly honest with you, I don't I'd say Moore is ahead of Baldwin however as he's played more first team football at a decent level,

Baldwin is on the bench at cheltenham at the moment so isn't get a run out,

Not to say one is better then they other,  or one will make it or not as I can't predict the future, it really depends on how hard both players work off the field 

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1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

Perfectly honest with you, I don't I'd say Moore is ahead of Baldwin however as he's played more first team football at a decent level,

Baldwin is on the bench at cheltenham at the moment so isn't get a run out,

Not to say one is better then they other,  or one will make it or not as I can't predict the future, it really depends on how hard both players work off the field 

I see, so the coaches have given you their high opinion of TM but haven't even mentioned a player of the same age who will be battling him all the way for that first team place?

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8 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I see, so the coaches have given you their high opinion of TM but haven't even mentioned a player of the same age who will be battling him all the way for that first team place?

maybe because I never asked about Baldwin

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1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

maybe because I never asked about Baldwin

How could they evaluate his first team potential without taking into account the potential of his immediate rivals?

Let alone the new CB we seem to sign every season.

Sounds odd to me.

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And if we are discussing young City central defenders.

Baldwin is well thought of at City and has been included in first team training for some time now, I believe.

Current under 23 centre half is Tom Harrison who is a big lad and to me, also looks a good prospect.

Where is Tin Plavotic? Went to Barnet on loan last January, think he was injured early on and no sign of him this season. Still injured or no longer with us?

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29 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Reid was an exception to the rule and was going nowhere until a fundamental positional change.

True, but it is a great example of why you shouldn't write young players off too early. I think many, myself included, would've happily sold Reid last summer.

Sometimes it takes a positional change like in this instance, sometimes a growth spurt or just a change in mentality and maturity - there's loads of reasons why it takes some young players younger than others.

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21 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

And if we are discussing young City central defenders.

Baldwin is well thought of at City and has been included in first team training for some time now, I believe.

Current under 23 centre half is Tom Harrison who is a big lad and to me, also looks a good prospect.

Where is Tin Plavotic? Went to Barnet on loan last January, think he was injured early on and no sign of him this season. Still injured or no longer with us?

Plavotic played LB in our 23's quite often last season I believe. 

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1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

True, but it is a great example of why you shouldn't write young players off too early. I think many, myself included, would've happily sold Reid last summer.

Sometimes it takes a positional change like in this instance, sometimes a growth spurt or just a change in mentality and maturity - there's loads of reasons why it takes some young players younger than others.

I agree to an extent, but you cannot hold on to non progressing players for ever, and, as I said, Reid is very much the exception.

That level of patience is unlikely to be repeated imo.

Mostly it is players like James Wilson who we give numerous new contracts to for years because of their potential and then eventually release for a sporadic career in the lower divisions.

As @cidered abroad says above we have younger players coming through in the same position as TM and space must be made in the squad for them.

I suspect the coaching staff at AG think TM is a tremendously nice lad and a reasonable footballer, but I personally doubt they rate him highly as a CB at this level.

I agree with the poster who said they would have expected more from him by now. You can beef a player up, but you cannot instill aggression or aerial ability if it is naturally lacking and I suspect his loan spell has only confirmed he has stagnated in these areas.

It may well be that, like BR, City can find TM a new position where he can thrive. Perhaps in midfield - he runs with the ball well, he can tackle, reasonable passer of the ball, good stamina, but he's lacking in the qualities needed for a CB at this level imo.

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

I think Moore looks better as a RB than CB. That's where I see his future at the Club.

If everyone plays to their potential and keeps improving, and in Kelly's case we keep hold of him, as he imo, is by far our best asset, then I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a back 4 of ..... Moore, Vyner, Kelly, Pring...in the not so distant future. All have great potential imo. Some developing slower than others.

I agree and wouldn't be surprised either. It would scare me to death though. For a start, neither centre half is a natural, no-nonsense first ball winner who lives and breathes for defending his goal at all costs come what may. Secondly, I'd prefer at least one old head in my back four, not 4 young tyros.

All in all, that back four strikes me as the type an idealistic coach would put together, one who puts the emphasis too much on playing pure football at the expense of some of the more rudimentary but nevertheless essential dark arts of defending. For me, picking that back four would be driven by ideology and a desire to justify the 5 Pillars philosophy at the expense of what it takes - in reality - to win football matches in the Championship.

It's therefore a back four Lee Johnson may well consider picking. Thank god, then, that it's unlikely he will be able to because - at his current rate of progress - Lloyd Kelly will have departed Ashton Gate for bigger and better things long before the other 3 are ready to play Championship football together.    

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12 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I agree to an extent, but you cannot hold on to non progressing players for ever, and, as I said, Reid is very much the exception.

That level of patience is unlikely to be repeated imo.

Mostly it is players like James Wilson who we give numerous new contracts to for years because of their potential and then eventually release for a sporadic career in the lower divisions.

 

Joe Morrell is the next James Wilson???

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